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Re: a gay nation, another point....

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  • gunnarcologne
    One of the best, cheapest and most effective ways to destroy the Idea of a gay Nation, is, at least in my opinion, to call for violence. In this days, a gay
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
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      One of the best, cheapest and most effective ways to destroy the
      Idea of a gay Nation, is, at least in my opinion, to call for
      violence. In this days, a gay Kiss-In is, according to Pentagon
      Papers, considered as a 'serious threat' of terrorism.
      Acting like this (calling for violence) is silly and dangerous.
      That's what I think.




      --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, Donald Kirby <kndmgck@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No
      land is available unless taken; and no political body willingly g
      ives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way t
      o achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if p
      eople are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed c
      annot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not j
      ust theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is r
      eady to do as the founding fathers of almost every other nation o
      n earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can w
      hine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most o
      f which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can p
      ick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has s
      hown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even t
      he followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we w
      ho speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to
      >
      such a thing. It might muss our hair.
      >
      Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is r
      eality, it is history, it is the Truth.
      >

    • ridgeet roy
      Cant we start with from a small town or city ? Donald Kirby wrote: Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
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        Cant we start with from a small town or city ?

        Donald Kirby <kndmgck@...> wrote:
        Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No land is avalible unless taken; and no political bodie willingly gives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way to achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if people are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed cannot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not just theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is ready to do as the founding fathers of  almost every other nation on earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can whine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most of which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can pick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has shown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even the followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we who speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to such a thing. It might muss our hair.
            Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is reality, it is history, it is the Truth.

        Viktor Zimmermann <viktor.zimmermann@...> wrote:
        Steff,

        you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never dared.
        The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
        believed, and there were always less or more active phases in the
        development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing: from "I
        hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-man
        show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google and you
        will certainly find some interesting articles.

        Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most actors in
        the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what to do
        next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most people
        are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their support
        drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of official
        documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
        participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real must
        be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for somebody else
        making the next step.

        Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are trapped in
        our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents behold
        right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
        misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows: it's
        about the ability to accept differences of political views. If we
        could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not through
        our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.

        However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose that
        the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
        organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss the gay
        self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into the
        "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:

        http://forum.gayhomeland.org

        There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such, now
        independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The forum is
        open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly bound to
        only republican supporters.

        I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
        attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum. It's
        just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively interested
        in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.

        We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE failed and
        we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next try.
        What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
        within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice to "declare
        independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as our
        property.

        Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's talk
        about the enterprise like grown-ups.

        Viktor Zimmermann







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        Rij
         
         


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        Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
      • someonenotfamous
        Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who caused much damage to the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
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          Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You
          were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who
          caused much damage to the kingdom and formed the breakaway republic
          group, you then posted lies and rumour on your gat republic web site
          that resulted in HIM Dale taking legal action against you and you
          had to remove the offending information, you have also had to endure
          other legal threats against you by members of your own republic
          group such as Gunther and his recent threat of suing you, so maybe
          you should take a look at yourself before lectuing others.

          Sally

          --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "Viktor Zimmermann"
          <viktor.zimmermann@g...> wrote:
          >
          > Steff,
          >
          > you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never
          dared.
          > The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
          > believed, and there were always less or more active phases in the
          > development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing:
          from "I
          > hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-
          man
          > show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google and
          you
          > will certainly find some interesting articles.
          >
          > Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most actors
          in
          > the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what to
          do
          > next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most
          people
          > are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their
          support
          > drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of
          official
          > documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
          > participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real
          must
          > be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for somebody
          else
          > making the next step.
          >
          > Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are
          trapped in
          > our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents
          behold
          > right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
          > misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows: it's
          > about the ability to accept differences of political views. If we
          > could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not
          through
          > our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.
          >
          > However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose
          that
          > the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
          > organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss the
          gay
          > self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into the
          > "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:
          >
          > http://forum.gayhomeland.org
          >
          > There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such,
          now
          > independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The forum
          is
          > open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly
          bound to
          > only republican supporters.
          >
          > I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
          > attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum. It's
          > just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively
          interested
          > in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.
          >
          > We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE failed
          and
          > we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next try.
          > What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
          > within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice
          to "declare
          > independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as
          our
          > property.
          >
          > Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's
          talk
          > about the enterprise like grown-ups.
          >
          > Viktor Zimmermann
          >
        • someonenotfamous
          Donald, blood does not have to be shed, the Coral Sea Islands were chosen by the Gay activists because they are an uninhabited external territory/colony of
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
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            Donald, blood does not have to be shed, the Coral Sea Islands were
            chosen by the Gay activists because they are an uninhabited external
            territory/colony of Australia. This means under international law
            and the Charter of the United Nations and the Constituion of
            Australia as an External Overseas Territory the UN Law of "All
            external Territories have a right to self government and self
            determination" applies. The Coral Sea Islands as a territory has
            the same legal standing in the world as say Gibralter does to
            England or Tahiti does to France and under International law must be
            allowed to Self determine, it has its own United Nations country
            code of CR and is intitled to its own top level domain if it becomes
            inhapited. So the Aussies gays and lesbians who raised the rainbow
            flaf there were certainly onto something

            Sally

            --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, Donald Kirby <kndmgck@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No
            land is avalible unless taken; and no political bodie willingly
            gives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way
            to achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if
            people are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed
            cannot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not
            just theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is
            ready to do as the founding fathers of almost every other nation
            on earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can
            whine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most
            of which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can
            pick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has
            shown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even
            the followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we
            who speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to
            > such a thing. It might muss our hair.
            > Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is
            reality, it is history, it is the Truth.
            >
            > Viktor Zimmermann <viktor.zimmermann@g...> wrote: Steff,
            >
            > you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never
            dared.
            > The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
            > believed, and there were always less or more active phases in
            the
            > development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing:
            from "I
            > hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-
            man
            > show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google
            and you
            > will certainly find some interesting articles.
            >
            > Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most
            actors in
            > the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what
            to do
            > next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most
            people
            > are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their
            support
            > drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of
            official
            > documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
            > participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real
            must
            > be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for
            somebody else
            > making the next step.
            >
            > Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are
            trapped in
            > our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents
            behold
            > right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
            > misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows:
            it's
            > about the ability to accept differences of political views. If
            we
            > could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not
            through
            > our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.
            >
            > However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose
            that
            > the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
            > organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss
            the gay
            > self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into
            the
            > "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:
            >
            > http://forum.gayhomeland.org
            >
            > There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such,
            now
            > independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The
            forum is
            > open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly
            bound to
            > only republican supporters.
            >
            > I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
            > attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum.
            It's
            > just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively
            interested
            > in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.
            >
            > We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE
            failed and
            > we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next
            try.
            > What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
            > within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice
            to "declare
            > independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as
            our
            > property.
            >
            > Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's
            talk
            > about the enterprise like grown-ups.
            >
            > Viktor Zimmermann
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Viktor Zimmermann
            Dear Sally, what s your definition for troublemaker ? If this is somebody who is asking too many questions, which other people are unwilling to answer
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 27, 2006
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              Dear Sally,

              what's your definition for "troublemaker"? If this is somebody who is
              asking too many questions, which other people are unwilling to answer
              honestly, so yes - I am. I love asking questions.

              Indeed, upon I began asking questions, some other people began to do
              alike. The answers were not satisfying - you can't seriously blame ME
              for this? The "gayrepublic group" was formed by individuals, who have
              left this group by free pieces anyway, or were urged to leave. I never
              was telling the world anything more, than Mr. Freeman and Mr. Peréz
              are telling now as well (see gaykingdom.org) - just a couple of
              monthes earlier. And, if you please, what have I to do with the final
              break-up between Mr. Anderson and the rest of his kingdom? No, dear -
              it was a logical consequence, and most of the troubles were caused by
              Mr. Anderson himself - he proved to be extremely gifted in loosing
              trust from many good people, who at beginning took this project
              seriously and invested lots of time and work into it.

              Now to my own business, upon request. Well, a "recent threat of suing"
              from Gunnar? Not at all recent and, no offense - Gunnar talks lot of
              things when he is angry. ;D You can ask him if you wish - he is member
              of this group. As for "lies and rumor" you should check the "Gayzette"
              in this group's file section (with official apologize from "HIM Dale"
              for fraudulent pictures on the old website), as well as the new
              gaykingdom.org website - obviously, in the meanwhile Dale is the only
              one who believes the very fairytales he told us 1 year ago. Our
              website was changed 3 monthes after the conflict with Dale and this
              occasion had nothing to do with him or his "legal actions". I hope
              this helps.

              Generally, it is nothing dishonest or compromizing to be sued by
              certain people - it only indicates that one has crossed their
              interests in some way. And, no offense - Dale would have had his
              reasons to actually NOT going to the court - his chances to win the
              threatend lawsuit were not that good, I guess.

              Semper Augustus,

              Vicky :)

              --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "someonenotfamous"
              <someonenotfamous@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You
              > were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who
              > caused much damage to the kingdom and formed the breakaway republic
              > group, you then posted lies and rumour on your gat republic web site
              > that resulted in HIM Dale taking legal action against you and you
              > had to remove the offending information, you have also had to endure
              > other legal threats against you by members of your own republic
              > group such as Gunther and his recent threat of suing you, so maybe
              > you should take a look at yourself before lectuing others.
              >
              > Sally
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