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Re: a gay nation

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  • Viktor Zimmermann
    Steff, you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never dared. The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally believed, and there
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 16, 2006
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      Steff,

      you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never dared.
      The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
      believed, and there were always less or more active phases in the
      development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing: from "I
      hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-man
      show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google and you
      will certainly find some interesting articles.

      Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most actors in
      the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what to do
      next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most people
      are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their support
      drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of official
      documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
      participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real must
      be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for somebody else
      making the next step.

      Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are trapped in
      our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents behold
      right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
      misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows: it's
      about the ability to accept differences of political views. If we
      could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not through
      our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.

      However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose that
      the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
      organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss the gay
      self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into the
      "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:

      http://forum.gayhomeland.org

      There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such, now
      independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The forum is
      open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly bound to
      only republican supporters.

      I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
      attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum. It's
      just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively interested
      in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.

      We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE failed and
      we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next try.
      What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
      within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice to "declare
      independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as our
      property.

      Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's talk
      about the enterprise like grown-ups.

      Viktor Zimmermann
    • Donald Kirby
      Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No land is avalible unless taken; and no political bodie willingly gives up any power, be it
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 18, 2006
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        Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No land is avalible unless taken; and no political bodie willingly gives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way to achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if people are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed cannot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not just theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is ready to do as the founding fathers of  almost every other nation on earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can whine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most of which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can pick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has shown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even the followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we who speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to such a thing. It might muss our hair.
            Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is reality, it is history, it is the Truth.

        Viktor Zimmermann <viktor.zimmermann@...> wrote:
        Steff,

        you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never dared.
        The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
        believed, and there were always less or more active phases in the
        development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing: from "I
        hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-man
        show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google and you
        will certainly find some interesting articles.

        Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most actors in
        the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what to do
        next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most people
        are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their support
        drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of official
        documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
        participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real must
        be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for somebody else
        making the next step.

        Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are trapped in
        our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents behold
        right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
        misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows: it's
        about the ability to accept differences of political views. If we
        could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not through
        our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.

        However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose that
        the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
        organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss the gay
        self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into the
        "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:

        http://forum.gayhomeland.org

        There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such, now
        independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The forum is
        open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly bound to
        only republican supporters.

        I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
        attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum. It's
        just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively interested
        in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.

        We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE failed and
        we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next try.
        What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
        within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice to "declare
        independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as our
        property.

        Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's talk
        about the enterprise like grown-ups.

        Viktor Zimmermann







        Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
        Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
      • gunnarcologne
        One of the best, cheapest and most effective ways to destroy the Idea of a gay Nation, is, at least in my opinion, to call for violence. In this days, a gay
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
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          One of the best, cheapest and most effective ways to destroy the
          Idea of a gay Nation, is, at least in my opinion, to call for
          violence. In this days, a gay Kiss-In is, according to Pentagon
          Papers, considered as a 'serious threat' of terrorism.
          Acting like this (calling for violence) is silly and dangerous.
          That's what I think.




          --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, Donald Kirby <kndmgck@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No
          land is available unless taken; and no political body willingly g
          ives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way t
          o achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if p
          eople are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed c
          annot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not j
          ust theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is r
          eady to do as the founding fathers of almost every other nation o
          n earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can w
          hine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most o
          f which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can p
          ick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has s
          hown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even t
          he followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we w
          ho speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to
          >
          such a thing. It might muss our hair.
          >
          Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is r
          eality, it is history, it is the Truth.
          >

        • ridgeet roy
          Cant we start with from a small town or city ? Donald Kirby wrote: Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
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            Cant we start with from a small town or city ?

            Donald Kirby <kndmgck@...> wrote:
            Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No land is avalible unless taken; and no political bodie willingly gives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way to achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if people are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed cannot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not just theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is ready to do as the founding fathers of  almost every other nation on earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can whine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most of which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can pick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has shown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even the followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we who speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to such a thing. It might muss our hair.
                Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is reality, it is history, it is the Truth.

            Viktor Zimmermann <viktor.zimmermann@...> wrote:
            Steff,

            you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never dared.
            The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
            believed, and there were always less or more active phases in the
            development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing: from "I
            hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-man
            show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google and you
            will certainly find some interesting articles.

            Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most actors in
            the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what to do
            next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most people
            are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their support
            drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of official
            documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
            participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real must
            be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for somebody else
            making the next step.

            Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are trapped in
            our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents behold
            right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
            misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows: it's
            about the ability to accept differences of political views. If we
            could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not through
            our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.

            However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose that
            the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
            organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss the gay
            self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into the
            "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:

            http://forum.gayhomeland.org

            There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such, now
            independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The forum is
            open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly bound to
            only republican supporters.

            I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
            attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum. It's
            just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively interested
            in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.

            We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE failed and
            we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next try.
            What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
            within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice to "declare
            independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as our
            property.

            Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's talk
            about the enterprise like grown-ups.

            Viktor Zimmermann







            Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
            Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!



            Rij
             
             


            Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
            Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
          • someonenotfamous
            Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who caused much damage to the
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
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              Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You
              were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who
              caused much damage to the kingdom and formed the breakaway republic
              group, you then posted lies and rumour on your gat republic web site
              that resulted in HIM Dale taking legal action against you and you
              had to remove the offending information, you have also had to endure
              other legal threats against you by members of your own republic
              group such as Gunther and his recent threat of suing you, so maybe
              you should take a look at yourself before lectuing others.

              Sally

              --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "Viktor Zimmermann"
              <viktor.zimmermann@g...> wrote:
              >
              > Steff,
              >
              > you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never
              dared.
              > The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
              > believed, and there were always less or more active phases in the
              > development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing:
              from "I
              > hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-
              man
              > show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google and
              you
              > will certainly find some interesting articles.
              >
              > Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most actors
              in
              > the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what to
              do
              > next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most
              people
              > are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their
              support
              > drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of
              official
              > documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
              > participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real
              must
              > be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for somebody
              else
              > making the next step.
              >
              > Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are
              trapped in
              > our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents
              behold
              > right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
              > misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows: it's
              > about the ability to accept differences of political views. If we
              > could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not
              through
              > our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.
              >
              > However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose
              that
              > the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
              > organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss the
              gay
              > self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into the
              > "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:
              >
              > http://forum.gayhomeland.org
              >
              > There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such,
              now
              > independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The forum
              is
              > open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly
              bound to
              > only republican supporters.
              >
              > I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
              > attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum. It's
              > just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively
              interested
              > in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.
              >
              > We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE failed
              and
              > we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next try.
              > What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
              > within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice
              to "declare
              > independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as
              our
              > property.
              >
              > Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's
              talk
              > about the enterprise like grown-ups.
              >
              > Viktor Zimmermann
              >
            • someonenotfamous
              Donald, blood does not have to be shed, the Coral Sea Islands were chosen by the Gay activists because they are an uninhabited external territory/colony of
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 19, 2006
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                Donald, blood does not have to be shed, the Coral Sea Islands were
                chosen by the Gay activists because they are an uninhabited external
                territory/colony of Australia. This means under international law
                and the Charter of the United Nations and the Constituion of
                Australia as an External Overseas Territory the UN Law of "All
                external Territories have a right to self government and self
                determination" applies. The Coral Sea Islands as a territory has
                the same legal standing in the world as say Gibralter does to
                England or Tahiti does to France and under International law must be
                allowed to Self determine, it has its own United Nations country
                code of CR and is intitled to its own top level domain if it becomes
                inhapited. So the Aussies gays and lesbians who raised the rainbow
                flaf there were certainly onto something

                Sally

                --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, Donald Kirby <kndmgck@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Not only is the problem momentum, but aversion to real action. No
                land is avalible unless taken; and no political bodie willingly
                gives up any power, be it people, land or otherwise. The only way
                to achieve and maintain a seperate nation for a homeland is if
                people are willing to fight for it. Any group that is oppressed
                cannot achieve freedom until they are willing to shed blood-not
                just theirs but that of others as well, Until the GLBT community is
                ready to do as the founding fathers of almost every other nation
                on earth did no "GLBT Homeland" will ever exist. WE-as a whole- can
                whine and pout and cry and try to use courts and polititians(most
                of which are corrupt or imbeciles) and achieve nothing- or WE can
                pick a spot, settle there, and fight for what we want. History has
                shown that such things have one price: blood. Ours and theirs. Even
                the followers of the Blessed Ghandi shed their own blood. But we
                who speak of a gay homeland don't want a homeland bad enough to
                > such a thing. It might muss our hair.
                > Does this sound a little militaristic? It should. It is
                reality, it is history, it is the Truth.
                >
                > Viktor Zimmermann <viktor.zimmermann@g...> wrote: Steff,
                >
                > you rise a topic which probably many wanted to stir but never
                dared.
                > The very idea of a queer nation is much older than is generally
                > believed, and there were always less or more active phases in
                the
                > development of this idea. There are many conceptions existing:
                from "I
                > hate straights" to "Gay Parallel Republic" and of course the one-
                man
                > show of Mr. Anderson. Search for "Queer nationalism" on Google
                and you
                > will certainly find some interesting articles.
                >
                > Well, to answer your question - I must tell you, that most
                actors in
                > the gay nationalism movement seem somewhat uncertain about what
                to do
                > next now. You see, the idea is that much high-flown that most
                people
                > are very euphoric in the first days/weeks, but they let their
                support
                > drop when some real things have to be done - e.g. signing of
                official
                > documents for registration, paying membership dues or simply
                > participating in some tiresome debates. Whenever something real
                must
                > be done, we loose faith and hide in corners, waiting for
                somebody else
                > making the next step.
                >
                > Most of us seem unable to overcome past differences and are
                trapped in
                > our ego-centrism. Even if history has proved that our opponents
                behold
                > right, we cannot make a step towards them and acknowledge our
                > misjudgment. It's not the "us against them" matter, fellows:
                it's
                > about the ability to accept differences of political views. If
                we
                > could find a way to communicate to eachother directly and not
                through
                > our lawyers, it would be a small, but important progress.
                >
                > However, this movement is certainly not dead. Whereas I suppose
                that
                > the remains of Kingdom's government are also planning some re-
                > organization, it's not the only place in the world to discuss
                the gay
                > self-determination. You might find it interesting to peer into
                the
                > "Gay Homeland" discussion group as well:
                >
                > http://forum.gayhomeland.org
                >
                > There we are discussing some aspects of gay nationalism as such,
                now
                > independently from the republican/monarchist mindstate. The
                forum is
                > open to anybody intersted in the gay life and is not strictly
                bound to
                > only republican supporters.
                >
                > I hope that this message will be not understood as an unfriendly
                > attempt to draw subscribers of this group into our own forum.
                It's
                > just a hand, stretched out to this group and all actively
                interested
                > in the discussion, inclusively the moderators/government.
                >
                > We must recognize that all previous efforts obviously HAVE
                failed and
                > we are in need of a serious discussion before we start a next
                try.
                > What do we want to achieve at the long-term, what can we achieve
                > within the next few years? It obviously does NOT suffice
                to "declare
                > independency" and choose an island on the map to be regarded as
                our
                > property.
                >
                > Come back to Earth, buddies, leave the sulling corner and let's
                talk
                > about the enterprise like grown-ups.
                >
                > Viktor Zimmermann
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Viktor Zimmermann
                Dear Sally, what s your definition for troublemaker ? If this is somebody who is asking too many questions, which other people are unwilling to answer
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 27, 2006
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                  Dear Sally,

                  what's your definition for "troublemaker"? If this is somebody who is
                  asking too many questions, which other people are unwilling to answer
                  honestly, so yes - I am. I love asking questions.

                  Indeed, upon I began asking questions, some other people began to do
                  alike. The answers were not satisfying - you can't seriously blame ME
                  for this? The "gayrepublic group" was formed by individuals, who have
                  left this group by free pieces anyway, or were urged to leave. I never
                  was telling the world anything more, than Mr. Freeman and Mr. Peréz
                  are telling now as well (see gaykingdom.org) - just a couple of
                  monthes earlier. And, if you please, what have I to do with the final
                  break-up between Mr. Anderson and the rest of his kingdom? No, dear -
                  it was a logical consequence, and most of the troubles were caused by
                  Mr. Anderson himself - he proved to be extremely gifted in loosing
                  trust from many good people, who at beginning took this project
                  seriously and invested lots of time and work into it.

                  Now to my own business, upon request. Well, a "recent threat of suing"
                  from Gunnar? Not at all recent and, no offense - Gunnar talks lot of
                  things when he is angry. ;D You can ask him if you wish - he is member
                  of this group. As for "lies and rumor" you should check the "Gayzette"
                  in this group's file section (with official apologize from "HIM Dale"
                  for fraudulent pictures on the old website), as well as the new
                  gaykingdom.org website - obviously, in the meanwhile Dale is the only
                  one who believes the very fairytales he told us 1 year ago. Our
                  website was changed 3 monthes after the conflict with Dale and this
                  occasion had nothing to do with him or his "legal actions". I hope
                  this helps.

                  Generally, it is nothing dishonest or compromizing to be sued by
                  certain people - it only indicates that one has crossed their
                  interests in some way. And, no offense - Dale would have had his
                  reasons to actually NOT going to the court - his chances to win the
                  threatend lawsuit were not that good, I guess.

                  Semper Augustus,

                  Vicky :)

                  --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "someonenotfamous"
                  <someonenotfamous@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Victor, you of all people should practise what you preach!!! You
                  > were one of the main trouble makers and are one of the people who
                  > caused much damage to the kingdom and formed the breakaway republic
                  > group, you then posted lies and rumour on your gat republic web site
                  > that resulted in HIM Dale taking legal action against you and you
                  > had to remove the offending information, you have also had to endure
                  > other legal threats against you by members of your own republic
                  > group such as Gunther and his recent threat of suing you, so maybe
                  > you should take a look at yourself before lectuing others.
                  >
                  > Sally
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