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RE: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

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  • Anthony N. Urwin
    Hello ALL: I would tend to agree with Gart. I live in the Netherlands as well, and we have essentially a complete secular society and government with complete
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005

      Hello ALL:

       

                  I would tend to agree with Gart. I live in the Netherlands as well, and we have essentially a complete secular society and government with complete rights for gays and lesbians. If that isn’t a model for this “venture” into a gay state, I don’t know what country would be. I would definitely say that the NL is far more secular in government policies and legal legislation than the United States. This is most evidently seen when the Dutch government passed gay marriage. It was not a religious battle. I think what Gart is saying, correct me if I am wrong, is that religion has absolutely no place in politics, running affairs of state or even being mentioned in a constitution, save mentioning that religion is a freedom that you can enjoy; period. Religion organized or otherwise should never be mentioned in any official capacity. I think it’s simpler for everyone and makes more logistical sense. Religion is just one of those things that really offend people no matter where you come from. Most of peoples dislike toward gays and lesbians stems from religion. If for example you see that a tree you have planted is becoming sick and weak. With further inspection you see that it is the soil. Do you keep allowing the soil to remain to kill the tree or do you remove the soil all together and plant it in new fresh soil not tainted by the old soil?

       

      Well, just my thoughts…and thanks for listening…

       

      Anthony

       


      From: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SEBama1
      Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 06:23
      To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

       

      Gart,

          For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at the door".

          With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart, just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on. At what point do we stop?

      Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and who may I ask is to make this decision?

          Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as we are already limited in our current societies.

       

      Louis Trusty

       

       

       

      From: Gart

      Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:32 AM

      Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

       

      Hi all!

      I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

      Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

      In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

      Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

      Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

       

      Gart

      Amsterdam

    • Gart
      Hi Louis, First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I appreciate you taking the time to put your points across. Louis, I don t see how you
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
        Hi Louis,

        First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
        appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
        Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
        have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
        is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
        so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
        and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
        convictions but keep them to themselves.

        Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
        free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
        someone from believing, and why should you want to?

        The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
        religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
        movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
        government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
        disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
        neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
        start: at zero.

        This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
        organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
        amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
        whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
        than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
        leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
        kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
        establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
        should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
        in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
        be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
        do.

        As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
        offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
        others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
        beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
        and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
        Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
        intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
        and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
        yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
        also on this list.

        I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
        and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
        gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
        religion from government and public life, we could set an example
        for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
        anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
        conflicts throughout history.

        Gart
        Amsterdam


        --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
        >
        > Gart,
        > For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
        with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
        religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
        the door".
        > With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
        just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
        At what point do we stop?
        > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
        who may I ask is to make this decision?
        > Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
        we are already limited in our current societies.
        >
        > Louis Trusty
        >
      • Michael P. Gronseth
        Let me toss in my perspective on this issue. The First Amendment of the US Constitution forbids the establishment of a national church. The Fourteenth
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
          Let me toss in my perspective on this issue.

          The First Amendment of the US Constitution forbids the establishment
          of a national church. The Fourteenth Amendment extends that to the
          states. Much debate and interpretation over the last 200+ years has
          been found in the nature of what exactly is "establishment of
          religion"? Is it like in the country of England where the Sovereign
          as Head of State is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of
          England? Does supporting worthwhile charities of all kinds through
          grants and other taxpayer funding, regardless of the theology or lack
          thereof constitute establishment? (1)

          What I see by many in the gay community is a completely anti-
          Christian backlash. Yes, our oppressors often cite religious beliefs
          as a justification for continued discrimination, but other
          justifications exist. Yet there are many, many good Christian people
          out there who are supportive of their gay brothers and sisters. The
          (Episcopal) Diocese of New Hampshire popularly elected a non-celibate
          gay man as its bishop. That election was supported by the Episcopal
          Church of the USA, the American "branch" of Anglicanism. Even the
          Rev. Jerry Falwell, who in the past has been a virulent critic of the
          gay community and homosexuality in general, has acknowledged that
          housing and employment are not "special" rights to be denied to gay
          Americans. To paint all people of faith with the same brush is to
          treat them in a similar fashion like gay men and women have been
          treated by a subset of the faithful. In other words, not all
          Christians (or Jews, or Muslims or etc.) are like the Rev. Fred
          Phelps of www.godhatesfags.com.

          No government can be completely secular. Personal faith informs the
          actions of individuals as much as personal experience and education.
          They say here in the US, "you can take the boy out of the country,
          but you can't take the country out of the boy." When it comes to
          politicians and bureaucrats of all kinds, you can't take the faith
          out of the person. It forms an integral part of an individual as much
          as their race or sexual orientation do. The best aim is to
          disestablish religion, or never establish it at all. On the federal
          level, the USA has never had the equivalent of the Church of England
          or the Lutheran Church in Norway. Under American jurisprudence, the
          Supreme Court has been asked many times to decide if a particular
          relationship between Church and State is an establishment. Some
          policies have been upheld over the years such as not taxing Churches.
          Others like the display of the Ten Commandments or school organized
          prayer have not. Where the line is drawn is the sand will always be a
          matter of debate. One cannot criminalize thought, not even religious
          thought. One can regulate how much deference or support the Church
          receives.
          --
          Michael P. Gronseth
          Negaunee, MI

          (1) Historically, aid and relief efforts in response to tragedies
          have come through non governmental means. Individuals turned to
          private charities or their church congregation in times of need.
          Government intervention and direct aid efforts are a much more recent
          development. Recent proposals by the current administration in
          Washington seek to allow all charities to compete for federal grants
          regardless of the secular or religious nature of the applicant
          organization. Also, private sector contributions in the US for global
          crises such as the tsunami typically out number official government aid.
        • James Nunn
          It appears the simplest way to deal with this is have, as part of the Constitution, a reference that states the Gay Kingdom will not recognize, support or
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 19, 2005
            It appears the simplest way to deal with this is have, as part of the Constitution, a reference that states "the Gay Kingdom will not recognize, support or oppose any one religious tradition over another." To ensure that this never changes (or at least makes it difficult to change), the Constitutional Amendment process should stipulate that this section (or the section that covers the "Bill of Rights") may only be amended with an affirmative vote of no less than 90% (or some other figure), and that that vote must be confirmed by a second vote no earlier than three months after the first vote, with the same percentage.

            This would clearly put this matter back into the hands of the people of the Kingdom.

            Just a thought.

            James

            On 10/18/05, Gart <gzeebregts@...> wrote:
            Hi Louis,

            First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
            appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
            Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
            have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
            is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
            so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
            and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
            convictions but keep them to themselves.

            Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
            free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
            someone from believing, and why should you want to?

            The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
            religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
            movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
            government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
            disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
            neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
            start: at zero.

            This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
            organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
            amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
            whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
            than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
            leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
            kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
            establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
            should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
            in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
            be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
            do.

            As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
            offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
            others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
            beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
            and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
            Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
            intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
            and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
            yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
            also on this list.

            I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
            and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
            gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
            religion from government and public life, we could set an example
            for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
            anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
            conflicts throughout history.

            Gart
            Amsterdam



            --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
            >
            > Gart,
            >     For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
            with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
            religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
            the door".
            >     With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
            just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
            At what point do we stop?
            > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
            who may I ask is to make this decision?
            >     Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
            we are already limited in our current societies.
            >
            > Louis Trusty
            >







            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS






            --
            James D. Nunn <jdnunn@...>
            "When we lose the right to be different, we lose the right to be free." Charles Evans Hughes
          • Anthony N. Urwin
            Mooi geschreven! Anthony Amsterdam ________________________________ Van: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com namens Gart Verzonden: wo 19-10-2005 0:24 Aan:
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 25, 2005
              Mooi geschreven!

              Anthony
              Amsterdam

              ________________________________

              Van: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com namens Gart
              Verzonden: wo 19-10-2005 0:24
              Aan: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
              Onderwerp: [gaykingdom] Re: Please check your religion at the door


              Hi Louis,

              First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
              appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
              Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
              have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
              is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
              so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
              and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
              convictions but keep them to themselves.

              Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
              free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
              someone from believing, and why should you want to?

              The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
              religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
              movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
              government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
              disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
              neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
              start: at zero.

              This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
              organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
              amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
              whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
              than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
              leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
              kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
              establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
              should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
              in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
              be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
              do.

              As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
              offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
              others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
              beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
              and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
              Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
              intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
              and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
              yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
              also on this list.

              I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
              and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
              gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
              religion from government and public life, we could set an example
              for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
              anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
              conflicts throughout history.

              Gart
              Amsterdam


              --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
              >
              > Gart,
              > For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
              with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
              religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
              the door".
              > With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
              just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
              At what point do we stop?
              > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
              who may I ask is to make this decision?
              > Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
              we are already limited in our current societies.
              >
              > Louis Trusty
              >







              ________________________________

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