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Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

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  • SEBama1
    Gart, For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the checking of your religion at the door
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
      Gart,
          For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at the door".
          With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart, just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on. At what point do we stop?
      Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and who may I ask is to make this decision?
          Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as we are already limited in our current societies.
       
      Louis Trusty
       
       
       
      From: Gart
      Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:32 AM
      Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

      Hi all!

      I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

      Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

      In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

      Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

      Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

       

      Gart

      Amsterdam

    • Anthony N. Urwin
      Hello ALL: I would tend to agree with Gart. I live in the Netherlands as well, and we have essentially a complete secular society and government with complete
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005

        Hello ALL:

         

                    I would tend to agree with Gart. I live in the Netherlands as well, and we have essentially a complete secular society and government with complete rights for gays and lesbians. If that isn’t a model for this “venture” into a gay state, I don’t know what country would be. I would definitely say that the NL is far more secular in government policies and legal legislation than the United States. This is most evidently seen when the Dutch government passed gay marriage. It was not a religious battle. I think what Gart is saying, correct me if I am wrong, is that religion has absolutely no place in politics, running affairs of state or even being mentioned in a constitution, save mentioning that religion is a freedom that you can enjoy; period. Religion organized or otherwise should never be mentioned in any official capacity. I think it’s simpler for everyone and makes more logistical sense. Religion is just one of those things that really offend people no matter where you come from. Most of peoples dislike toward gays and lesbians stems from religion. If for example you see that a tree you have planted is becoming sick and weak. With further inspection you see that it is the soil. Do you keep allowing the soil to remain to kill the tree or do you remove the soil all together and plant it in new fresh soil not tainted by the old soil?

         

        Well, just my thoughts…and thanks for listening…

         

        Anthony

         


        From: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SEBama1
        Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 06:23
        To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

         

        Gart,

            For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at the door".

            With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart, just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on. At what point do we stop?

        Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and who may I ask is to make this decision?

            Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as we are already limited in our current societies.

         

        Louis Trusty

         

         

         

        From: Gart

        Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:32 AM

        Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

         

        Hi all!

        I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

        Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

        In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

        Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

        Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

         

        Gart

        Amsterdam

      • Gart
        Hi Louis, First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I appreciate you taking the time to put your points across. Louis, I don t see how you
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
          Hi Louis,

          First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
          appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
          Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
          have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
          is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
          so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
          and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
          convictions but keep them to themselves.

          Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
          free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
          someone from believing, and why should you want to?

          The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
          religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
          movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
          government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
          disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
          neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
          start: at zero.

          This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
          organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
          amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
          whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
          than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
          leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
          kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
          establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
          should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
          in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
          be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
          do.

          As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
          offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
          others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
          beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
          and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
          Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
          intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
          and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
          yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
          also on this list.

          I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
          and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
          gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
          religion from government and public life, we could set an example
          for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
          anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
          conflicts throughout history.

          Gart
          Amsterdam


          --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
          >
          > Gart,
          > For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
          with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
          religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
          the door".
          > With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
          just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
          At what point do we stop?
          > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
          who may I ask is to make this decision?
          > Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
          we are already limited in our current societies.
          >
          > Louis Trusty
          >
        • Michael P. Gronseth
          Let me toss in my perspective on this issue. The First Amendment of the US Constitution forbids the establishment of a national church. The Fourteenth
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
            Let me toss in my perspective on this issue.

            The First Amendment of the US Constitution forbids the establishment
            of a national church. The Fourteenth Amendment extends that to the
            states. Much debate and interpretation over the last 200+ years has
            been found in the nature of what exactly is "establishment of
            religion"? Is it like in the country of England where the Sovereign
            as Head of State is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of
            England? Does supporting worthwhile charities of all kinds through
            grants and other taxpayer funding, regardless of the theology or lack
            thereof constitute establishment? (1)

            What I see by many in the gay community is a completely anti-
            Christian backlash. Yes, our oppressors often cite religious beliefs
            as a justification for continued discrimination, but other
            justifications exist. Yet there are many, many good Christian people
            out there who are supportive of their gay brothers and sisters. The
            (Episcopal) Diocese of New Hampshire popularly elected a non-celibate
            gay man as its bishop. That election was supported by the Episcopal
            Church of the USA, the American "branch" of Anglicanism. Even the
            Rev. Jerry Falwell, who in the past has been a virulent critic of the
            gay community and homosexuality in general, has acknowledged that
            housing and employment are not "special" rights to be denied to gay
            Americans. To paint all people of faith with the same brush is to
            treat them in a similar fashion like gay men and women have been
            treated by a subset of the faithful. In other words, not all
            Christians (or Jews, or Muslims or etc.) are like the Rev. Fred
            Phelps of www.godhatesfags.com.

            No government can be completely secular. Personal faith informs the
            actions of individuals as much as personal experience and education.
            They say here in the US, "you can take the boy out of the country,
            but you can't take the country out of the boy." When it comes to
            politicians and bureaucrats of all kinds, you can't take the faith
            out of the person. It forms an integral part of an individual as much
            as their race or sexual orientation do. The best aim is to
            disestablish religion, or never establish it at all. On the federal
            level, the USA has never had the equivalent of the Church of England
            or the Lutheran Church in Norway. Under American jurisprudence, the
            Supreme Court has been asked many times to decide if a particular
            relationship between Church and State is an establishment. Some
            policies have been upheld over the years such as not taxing Churches.
            Others like the display of the Ten Commandments or school organized
            prayer have not. Where the line is drawn is the sand will always be a
            matter of debate. One cannot criminalize thought, not even religious
            thought. One can regulate how much deference or support the Church
            receives.
            --
            Michael P. Gronseth
            Negaunee, MI

            (1) Historically, aid and relief efforts in response to tragedies
            have come through non governmental means. Individuals turned to
            private charities or their church congregation in times of need.
            Government intervention and direct aid efforts are a much more recent
            development. Recent proposals by the current administration in
            Washington seek to allow all charities to compete for federal grants
            regardless of the secular or religious nature of the applicant
            organization. Also, private sector contributions in the US for global
            crises such as the tsunami typically out number official government aid.
          • James Nunn
            It appears the simplest way to deal with this is have, as part of the Constitution, a reference that states the Gay Kingdom will not recognize, support or
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 19, 2005
              It appears the simplest way to deal with this is have, as part of the Constitution, a reference that states "the Gay Kingdom will not recognize, support or oppose any one religious tradition over another." To ensure that this never changes (or at least makes it difficult to change), the Constitutional Amendment process should stipulate that this section (or the section that covers the "Bill of Rights") may only be amended with an affirmative vote of no less than 90% (or some other figure), and that that vote must be confirmed by a second vote no earlier than three months after the first vote, with the same percentage.

              This would clearly put this matter back into the hands of the people of the Kingdom.

              Just a thought.

              James

              On 10/18/05, Gart <gzeebregts@...> wrote:
              Hi Louis,

              First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
              appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
              Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
              have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
              is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
              so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
              and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
              convictions but keep them to themselves.

              Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
              free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
              someone from believing, and why should you want to?

              The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
              religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
              movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
              government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
              disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
              neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
              start: at zero.

              This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
              organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
              amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
              whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
              than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
              leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
              kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
              establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
              should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
              in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
              be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
              do.

              As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
              offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
              others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
              beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
              and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
              Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
              intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
              and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
              yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
              also on this list.

              I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
              and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
              gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
              religion from government and public life, we could set an example
              for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
              anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
              conflicts throughout history.

              Gart
              Amsterdam



              --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
              >
              > Gart,
              >     For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
              with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
              religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
              the door".
              >     With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
              just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
              At what point do we stop?
              > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
              who may I ask is to make this decision?
              >     Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
              we are already limited in our current societies.
              >
              > Louis Trusty
              >







              YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS






              --
              James D. Nunn <jdnunn@...>
              "When we lose the right to be different, we lose the right to be free." Charles Evans Hughes
            • Anthony N. Urwin
              Mooi geschreven! Anthony Amsterdam ________________________________ Van: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com namens Gart Verzonden: wo 19-10-2005 0:24 Aan:
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 25, 2005
                Mooi geschreven!

                Anthony
                Amsterdam

                ________________________________

                Van: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com namens Gart
                Verzonden: wo 19-10-2005 0:24
                Aan: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
                Onderwerp: [gaykingdom] Re: Please check your religion at the door


                Hi Louis,

                First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
                appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
                Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
                have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
                is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
                so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
                and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
                convictions but keep them to themselves.

                Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
                free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
                someone from believing, and why should you want to?

                The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
                religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
                movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
                government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
                disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
                neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
                start: at zero.

                This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
                organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
                amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
                whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
                than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
                leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
                kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
                establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
                should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
                in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
                be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
                do.

                As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
                offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
                others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
                beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
                and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
                Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
                intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
                and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
                yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
                also on this list.

                I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
                and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
                gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
                religion from government and public life, we could set an example
                for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
                anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
                conflicts throughout history.

                Gart
                Amsterdam


                --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
                >
                > Gart,
                > For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
                with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
                religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
                the door".
                > With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
                just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
                At what point do we stop?
                > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
                who may I ask is to make this decision?
                > Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
                we are already limited in our current societies.
                >
                > Louis Trusty
                >







                ________________________________

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