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Please check your religion at the door

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  • Gart
    Hi all! I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 15, 2005
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      Hi all!

      I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

      Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

      In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

      Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

      Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

       

      Gart

      Amsterdam

    • Jase
      Gart, Respectfully, just because you do not believe in G-d or a higher being, does not mean that we as a community should outlaw faith and religion. What we
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
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        Gart,
         
        Respectfully, just because you do not believe in G-d or a higher being, does not mean that we as a community should outlaw faith and religion. What we should outlaw is a mandatory or "state" religion. There are many faiths that are gay inclusive and welcoming. And it is hard for a person of faith, namely myself, to always check it at the door. Does this mean I am not a good leader or a moral and equal person? No!
         
        I don't believe religion has ever been thrown around in anyone's face or used as a mean to say "I told you so".
         
        While I respect your belief, I would strongly argue against it because that would not welcome all. It would push back and possibly discriminate against people whom do have a faith. Outlaw mandatory or "state" religions, but not faith of the people. 
         
         
        This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private, proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
        -------Original Message-------
         
        From: Gart
        Date: 10/17/05 12:13:57
        Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door
         

        Hi all!

        I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

        Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

        In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

        Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

        Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

         

        Gart

        Amsterdam

         
      • William J. Freeman
        I dunno, some of the most public Christians seem to be fairly evil folk. I d much rather be in charge of my own beliefs over trusting it to my neighbor, or my
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
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          I dunno, some of the most public Christians seem to be fairly evil folk.  I'd much rather be in charge of my own beliefs over trusting it to my neighbor, or my government.
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jase
          Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:28 PM
          To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

          Gart,
           
          Respectfully, just because you do not believe in G-d or a higher being, does not mean that we as a community should outlaw faith and religion. What we should outlaw is a mandatory or "state" religion. There are many faiths that are gay inclusive and welcoming. And it is hard for a person of faith, namely myself, to always check it at the door. Does this mean I am not a good leader or a moral and equal person? No!
           
          I don't believe religion has ever been thrown around in anyone's face or used as a mean to say "I told you so".
           
          While I respect your belief, I would strongly argue against it because that would not welcome all. It would push back and possibly discriminate against people whom do have a faith. Outlaw mandatory or "state" religions, but not faith of the people. 
           
           
          This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private, proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
          -------Original Message-------
           
          From: Gart
          Date: 10/17/05 12:13:57
          Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door
           

          Hi all!

          I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

          Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

          In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

          Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

          Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

           

          Gart

          Amsterdam

           
        • Jase
          Bill, That was what I was attempting to say. That we should be able to have our own beliefs. That religion hasn t been thrown around to members of the GLK by
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
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            Bill,
             
            That was what I was attempting to say. That we should be able to have our own beliefs. That religion hasn't been thrown around to members of the GLK by those who represent it. Yes, i agree that most public Christians are evil and vile. i have suffered many an injury and abuse at their hands. But to outright say the kingdom should be able to have faith is wrong in my book. We should be able to worship or not whom we wish. We shouldn't outright outlaw ALL religion! 
             
             
            This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private, proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
            -------Original Message-------
             
            Date: 10/17/05 12:38:12
            Subject: RE: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door
             
            I dunno, some of the most public Christians seem to be fairly evil folk.  I'd much rather be in charge of my own beliefs over trusting it to my neighbor, or my government.
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jase
            Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:28 PM
            To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

            Gart,
             
            Respectfully, just because you do not believe in G-d or a higher being, does not mean that we as a community should outlaw faith and religion. What we should outlaw is a mandatory or "state" religion. There are many faiths that are gay inclusive and welcoming. And it is hard for a person of faith, namely myself, to always check it at the door. Does this mean I am not a good leader or a moral and equal person? No!
             
            I don't believe religion has ever been thrown around in anyone's face or used as a mean to say "I told you so".
             
            While I respect your belief, I would strongly argue against it because that would not welcome all. It would push back and possibly discriminate against people whom do have a faith. Outlaw mandatory or "state" religions, but not faith of the people. 
             
             
            This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private, proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
            -------Original Message-------
             
            From: Gart
            Date: 10/17/05 12:13:57
            Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door
             

            Hi all!

            I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

            Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

            In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

            Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

            Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

             

            Gart

            Amsterdam

             
             
          • SEBama1
            Gart, For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the checking of your religion at the door
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
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              Gart,
                  For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at the door".
                  With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart, just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on. At what point do we stop?
              Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and who may I ask is to make this decision?
                  Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as we are already limited in our current societies.
               
              Louis Trusty
               
               
               
              From: Gart
              Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:32 AM
              Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

              Hi all!

              I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

              Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

              In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

              Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

              Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

               

              Gart

              Amsterdam

            • Anthony N. Urwin
              Hello ALL: I would tend to agree with Gart. I live in the Netherlands as well, and we have essentially a complete secular society and government with complete
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
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                Hello ALL:

                 

                            I would tend to agree with Gart. I live in the Netherlands as well, and we have essentially a complete secular society and government with complete rights for gays and lesbians. If that isn’t a model for this “venture” into a gay state, I don’t know what country would be. I would definitely say that the NL is far more secular in government policies and legal legislation than the United States. This is most evidently seen when the Dutch government passed gay marriage. It was not a religious battle. I think what Gart is saying, correct me if I am wrong, is that religion has absolutely no place in politics, running affairs of state or even being mentioned in a constitution, save mentioning that religion is a freedom that you can enjoy; period. Religion organized or otherwise should never be mentioned in any official capacity. I think it’s simpler for everyone and makes more logistical sense. Religion is just one of those things that really offend people no matter where you come from. Most of peoples dislike toward gays and lesbians stems from religion. If for example you see that a tree you have planted is becoming sick and weak. With further inspection you see that it is the soil. Do you keep allowing the soil to remain to kill the tree or do you remove the soil all together and plant it in new fresh soil not tainted by the old soil?

                 

                Well, just my thoughts…and thanks for listening…

                 

                Anthony

                 


                From: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SEBama1
                Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 06:23
                To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

                 

                Gart,

                    For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at the door".

                    With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart, just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on. At what point do we stop?

                Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and who may I ask is to make this decision?

                    Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as we are already limited in our current societies.

                 

                Louis Trusty

                 

                 

                 

                From: Gart

                Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:32 AM

                Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

                 

                Hi all!

                I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

                Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

                In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

                Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

                Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

                 

                Gart

                Amsterdam

              • Gart
                Hi Louis, First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I appreciate you taking the time to put your points across. Louis, I don t see how you
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
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                  Hi Louis,

                  First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
                  appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
                  Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
                  have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
                  is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
                  so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
                  and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
                  convictions but keep them to themselves.

                  Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
                  free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
                  someone from believing, and why should you want to?

                  The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
                  religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
                  movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
                  government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
                  disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
                  neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
                  start: at zero.

                  This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
                  organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
                  amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
                  whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
                  than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
                  leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
                  kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
                  establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
                  should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
                  in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
                  be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
                  do.

                  As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
                  offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
                  others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
                  beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
                  and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
                  Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
                  intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
                  and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
                  yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
                  also on this list.

                  I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
                  and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
                  gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
                  religion from government and public life, we could set an example
                  for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
                  anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
                  conflicts throughout history.

                  Gart
                  Amsterdam


                  --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Gart,
                  > For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
                  with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
                  religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
                  the door".
                  > With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
                  just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
                  At what point do we stop?
                  > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
                  who may I ask is to make this decision?
                  > Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
                  we are already limited in our current societies.
                  >
                  > Louis Trusty
                  >
                • Michael P. Gronseth
                  Let me toss in my perspective on this issue. The First Amendment of the US Constitution forbids the establishment of a national church. The Fourteenth
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
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                    Let me toss in my perspective on this issue.

                    The First Amendment of the US Constitution forbids the establishment
                    of a national church. The Fourteenth Amendment extends that to the
                    states. Much debate and interpretation over the last 200+ years has
                    been found in the nature of what exactly is "establishment of
                    religion"? Is it like in the country of England where the Sovereign
                    as Head of State is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of
                    England? Does supporting worthwhile charities of all kinds through
                    grants and other taxpayer funding, regardless of the theology or lack
                    thereof constitute establishment? (1)

                    What I see by many in the gay community is a completely anti-
                    Christian backlash. Yes, our oppressors often cite religious beliefs
                    as a justification for continued discrimination, but other
                    justifications exist. Yet there are many, many good Christian people
                    out there who are supportive of their gay brothers and sisters. The
                    (Episcopal) Diocese of New Hampshire popularly elected a non-celibate
                    gay man as its bishop. That election was supported by the Episcopal
                    Church of the USA, the American "branch" of Anglicanism. Even the
                    Rev. Jerry Falwell, who in the past has been a virulent critic of the
                    gay community and homosexuality in general, has acknowledged that
                    housing and employment are not "special" rights to be denied to gay
                    Americans. To paint all people of faith with the same brush is to
                    treat them in a similar fashion like gay men and women have been
                    treated by a subset of the faithful. In other words, not all
                    Christians (or Jews, or Muslims or etc.) are like the Rev. Fred
                    Phelps of www.godhatesfags.com.

                    No government can be completely secular. Personal faith informs the
                    actions of individuals as much as personal experience and education.
                    They say here in the US, "you can take the boy out of the country,
                    but you can't take the country out of the boy." When it comes to
                    politicians and bureaucrats of all kinds, you can't take the faith
                    out of the person. It forms an integral part of an individual as much
                    as their race or sexual orientation do. The best aim is to
                    disestablish religion, or never establish it at all. On the federal
                    level, the USA has never had the equivalent of the Church of England
                    or the Lutheran Church in Norway. Under American jurisprudence, the
                    Supreme Court has been asked many times to decide if a particular
                    relationship between Church and State is an establishment. Some
                    policies have been upheld over the years such as not taxing Churches.
                    Others like the display of the Ten Commandments or school organized
                    prayer have not. Where the line is drawn is the sand will always be a
                    matter of debate. One cannot criminalize thought, not even religious
                    thought. One can regulate how much deference or support the Church
                    receives.
                    --
                    Michael P. Gronseth
                    Negaunee, MI

                    (1) Historically, aid and relief efforts in response to tragedies
                    have come through non governmental means. Individuals turned to
                    private charities or their church congregation in times of need.
                    Government intervention and direct aid efforts are a much more recent
                    development. Recent proposals by the current administration in
                    Washington seek to allow all charities to compete for federal grants
                    regardless of the secular or religious nature of the applicant
                    organization. Also, private sector contributions in the US for global
                    crises such as the tsunami typically out number official government aid.
                  • James Nunn
                    It appears the simplest way to deal with this is have, as part of the Constitution, a reference that states the Gay Kingdom will not recognize, support or
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 19, 2005
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                      It appears the simplest way to deal with this is have, as part of the Constitution, a reference that states "the Gay Kingdom will not recognize, support or oppose any one religious tradition over another." To ensure that this never changes (or at least makes it difficult to change), the Constitutional Amendment process should stipulate that this section (or the section that covers the "Bill of Rights") may only be amended with an affirmative vote of no less than 90% (or some other figure), and that that vote must be confirmed by a second vote no earlier than three months after the first vote, with the same percentage.

                      This would clearly put this matter back into the hands of the people of the Kingdom.

                      Just a thought.

                      James

                      On 10/18/05, Gart <gzeebregts@...> wrote:
                      Hi Louis,

                      First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
                      appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
                      Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
                      have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
                      is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
                      so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
                      and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
                      convictions but keep them to themselves.

                      Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
                      free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
                      someone from believing, and why should you want to?

                      The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
                      religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
                      movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
                      government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
                      disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
                      neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
                      start: at zero.

                      This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
                      organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
                      amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
                      whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
                      than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
                      leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
                      kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
                      establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
                      should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
                      in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
                      be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
                      do.

                      As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
                      offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
                      others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
                      beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
                      and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
                      Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
                      intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
                      and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
                      yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
                      also on this list.

                      I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
                      and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
                      gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
                      religion from government and public life, we could set an example
                      for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
                      anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
                      conflicts throughout history.

                      Gart
                      Amsterdam



                      --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gart,
                      >     For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
                      with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
                      religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
                      the door".
                      >     With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
                      just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
                      At what point do we stop?
                      > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
                      who may I ask is to make this decision?
                      >     Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
                      we are already limited in our current societies.
                      >
                      > Louis Trusty
                      >







                      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS






                      --
                      James D. Nunn <jdnunn@...>
                      "When we lose the right to be different, we lose the right to be free." Charles Evans Hughes
                    • Anthony N. Urwin
                      Mooi geschreven! Anthony Amsterdam ________________________________ Van: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com namens Gart Verzonden: wo 19-10-2005 0:24 Aan:
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 25, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mooi geschreven!

                        Anthony
                        Amsterdam

                        ________________________________

                        Van: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com namens Gart
                        Verzonden: wo 19-10-2005 0:24
                        Aan: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
                        Onderwerp: [gaykingdom] Re: Please check your religion at the door


                        Hi Louis,

                        First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
                        appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
                        Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
                        have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
                        is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
                        so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
                        and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
                        convictions but keep them to themselves.

                        Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
                        free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
                        someone from believing, and why should you want to?

                        The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
                        religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
                        movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
                        government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
                        disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
                        neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
                        start: at zero.

                        This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
                        organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
                        amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
                        whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
                        than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
                        leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
                        kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
                        establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
                        should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
                        in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
                        be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
                        do.

                        As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
                        offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
                        others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
                        beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
                        and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
                        Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
                        intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
                        and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
                        yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
                        also on this list.

                        I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
                        and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
                        gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
                        religion from government and public life, we could set an example
                        for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
                        anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
                        conflicts throughout history.

                        Gart
                        Amsterdam


                        --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gart,
                        > For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
                        with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
                        religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
                        the door".
                        > With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
                        just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
                        At what point do we stop?
                        > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
                        who may I ask is to make this decision?
                        > Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
                        we are already limited in our current societies.
                        >
                        > Louis Trusty
                        >







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