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Re: Re: Message not approved: confused, bothered and bewildered

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  • wjf@bellsouth.net
    Dear Candice, On the off chance you aren t a twit, and that you have something meaningful to offer, please offer it. Being a member of the Unified Gay Tribe
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 14, 2005
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      Dear Candice,

      On the off chance you aren't a twit, and that you have something meaningful to offer, please offer it.

      Being a member of the Unified Gay Tribe establishes legal culture under Title VII. The Gay and
      Lesbian Kingdom also uses Title VII to fight discrimination against citizens of the Gay Tribe who
      may be terminated from their employment on the basis of their national origin.

      It is sort of stupid that this nation, the United States, has to have laws that say one Christian culture
      can't canibalize another, say Moslem, or perhaps Gay, culture.

      Just because at one time it was illegal for a siamese twin to marry in any of the 50 US States doesn't
      mean we get it - it means precisely the apposite - that we are so slavishly devoted to ideas of Christian sexual morality that sometimes we forget a bigger picture - that we are all God's children.

      I'm glad for your 3000 sisters. Perhaps they know a good idea when they see it and we can do something to help one another. If not, they like the existing system and see no need to monkey with
      what works I guess. I would just judge them by their actions, not their rhetorical posts.

      Oh, and as for your censorship red herring, well, I won't try to be punny.

      Cheers,

      -Bill Freeman
      >
      > From: Candice Walker <cand1walker@...>
      > Date: 2005/10/15 Sat AM 01:42:54 EDT
      > To: Bill <wjf@...>
      > Subject: Re: Message not approved: confused, bothered and bewildered
      >
      >
      >
      > Bill <wjf@...> wrote:
      > Unless you are just trying to incite, what's the purpose here?
      >
      >
      >
      > > --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "Jase" wrote:
      > > > Candi,
      > > >
      > > > We do in fact have a lesbian in our ranks. Jack Blue is one of our
      > > wonderful
      > > > execs who takes what we are doing quite seriously. She is a
      > > wonderful woman
      > > > whom I am honored to call a friend and fellow legislator for the
      > > United Gay
      > > > Tribe.
      > > >
      > > > Jase ;0)
      > >
      > >
      > > Jase,
      > >
      > > My Gawd boy, one Lesbian sista! You are practically overrun then!
      > > OK next question. How many legislators are there and how many more
      > > are Lesbian? Although I'm sure the sista Jack B is a match for 10-20
      > > of ya!
      > > One more comment. Tribe? Ya'll wear bones through your noses and
      > > shrink heads? Doesn't really come off as a image maker. United Gay
      > > People, or United Gay Nation, or I like LesGay Nation.
      > > But I'm an outsider. You go right ahead and don't mind me.
      > >
      > > Sista Candi
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > www.neonjase.com
      > > > www.DesignsByJase.com
      > > > www.RedCross.org
      > > > www.rainbowrelief.org
      > > >
      > > > This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain
      > > private,
      > > > proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is
      > > intended only
      > > > for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use,
      > > copying or
      > > > distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited.
      > > If you
      > > > are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it
      > > in error
      > > > please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
      > > > -------Original Message-------
      > > >
      > > > From: cand1walker
      > > > Date: 09/30/05 00:54:01
      > > > To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [gaykingdom] Re: confused, bothered and bewildered
      > > >
      > > > --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, craig warren
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > Hello all confused, bothered and bewildered peoples of this rock
      > > > floating around space
      > > > >
      > > > > i haven't heard anything for a while but last info i had was :-
      > > > >
      > > > > yes there is an Emperor, his name is Dale, i far as know he still
      > > is
      > > > > yes there is an island, it is in the coral sea couple of hundred
      > > > miles off Australia, all that is on there is a weather station and
      > > a
      > > > bunch of wierd looking birds, tho a couple of trees planted there
      > > and
      > > > a plaque for the gay kingdom are also there.
      > > > > The reason Dale is emperor is cuz he is decended from a prince of
      > > > England that should have gone on the throne but didn't (long story
      > > > read a history book) so he has a right to claim this land from the
      > > > commonwealth. (it's more complicated than that but it's all on the
      > > > website)
      > > > >
      > > > > at the moment the goverment are in a sort of renewing of goals
      > > and
      > > > timeline and trying to fig out where to more onto next.
      > > > >
      > > > > p.s GLBT Kingdom, if any of the information i've giving is
      > > > incorrect plse let me know.
      > > > >
      > > > > The Crazy Brit xx
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > cand1walker wrote:This is all so confusing. I
      > > > tried to read some of the germane posts
      > > > > but I'm still confused.
      > > > > Is there an Emperor or not? If this one named Dale has been
      > > > removed,
      > > > > then does the next one in line become Emperor? Who is in line?
      > > > > What makes your government legitimate? I saw somewhere there was
      > > > an
      > > > > oath to the Emperor. Does this mean that that oath is now
      > > broken,
      > > > and
      > > > > if so doesn't that "de-ligitimize" this government.
      > > > > Why don't you have a Lesbian as Emperor? Personally I think with
      > > a
      > > > > sister at the lead, you all would be in better shape!
      > > > > I know there are a lot of questions, but I'm just curious
      > > > >
      > > > > CW
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hey we have the same initials! CW ;)
      > > >
      > > > Craig, I remember reading in a file that said the Emperor posed a
      > > > danger to the kingdom, and had to have a protector. Well to me
      > > that
      > > > says he is unfit to rule, and is a polite way to say he got dumped.
      > > > I dug into the CIA factbook on Cato island and it is a place that
      > > one
      > > > would exile really really bad criminals to. No water, no place to
      > > > land a boat, "scrub vegetation", and just a few acres in area, with
      > > > no place higher than 6 ft. That means in a typhoon, with a 10-15
      > > ft
      > > > storm surge ya better have some pretty high heels! ;)
      > > > I just thought I'd investigate this web group because some of my
      > > > sistas at web group Amazondebatecafe had heard of a group with a
      > > > Lesbian as the Queen seeking to found a nation, and they were very
      > > up
      > > > for it. Boy did they get that wrong! If there is a Lesbian here I
      > > > can't find her. But with a group of 300+ sistas there are bound to
      > > be
      > > > rumors. I'll hang around a little while, maybe someone in the know
      > > > will spill the beans.
      > > >
      > > > Big Candi Sista
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > What do you mean incite? Incite what? I was just talking to these people! The Amazons had just heard about a Lesbian Queen and we'd been discussing it and lookin for the group!
      >
      > And tribe does sound dumb! So you have ONE sista, big deal! We have 3000 in our group!
      >
      > Sistas don't like censorship either! Big mistake
      >
      >
      >
      > Sista Candi
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
      > > > > Sea island real estate Sea island ga Sea island hotel Sea island
      > > > inn Sea island inn myrtle beach Sea island cotton
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Visit your group "gaykingdom" on the web.
      > > > >
      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > gaykingdom-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > > > Service.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide
      > > > with voicemail
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > SPONSORED LINKS Sea island real estate Sea island ga Sea island
      > > hotel
      > > > Sea island inn Sea island inn myrtle beach Sea island cotton
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > > >
      > > > Visit your group "gaykingdom" on the web.
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > gaykingdom-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > > Service.
      >
      >
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      >
      >
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    • Gart
      Hi all! I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 15, 2005
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        Hi all!

        I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

        Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

        In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

        Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

        Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

         

        Gart

        Amsterdam

      • Jase
        Gart, Respectfully, just because you do not believe in G-d or a higher being, does not mean that we as a community should outlaw faith and religion. What we
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
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          Gart,
           
          Respectfully, just because you do not believe in G-d or a higher being, does not mean that we as a community should outlaw faith and religion. What we should outlaw is a mandatory or "state" religion. There are many faiths that are gay inclusive and welcoming. And it is hard for a person of faith, namely myself, to always check it at the door. Does this mean I am not a good leader or a moral and equal person? No!
           
          I don't believe religion has ever been thrown around in anyone's face or used as a mean to say "I told you so".
           
          While I respect your belief, I would strongly argue against it because that would not welcome all. It would push back and possibly discriminate against people whom do have a faith. Outlaw mandatory or "state" religions, but not faith of the people. 
           
           
          This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private, proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
          -------Original Message-------
           
          From: Gart
          Date: 10/17/05 12:13:57
          Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door
           

          Hi all!

          I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

          Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

          In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

          Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

          Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

           

          Gart

          Amsterdam

           
        • William J. Freeman
          I dunno, some of the most public Christians seem to be fairly evil folk. I d much rather be in charge of my own beliefs over trusting it to my neighbor, or my
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
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            I dunno, some of the most public Christians seem to be fairly evil folk.  I'd much rather be in charge of my own beliefs over trusting it to my neighbor, or my government.
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jase
            Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:28 PM
            To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

            Gart,
             
            Respectfully, just because you do not believe in G-d or a higher being, does not mean that we as a community should outlaw faith and religion. What we should outlaw is a mandatory or "state" religion. There are many faiths that are gay inclusive and welcoming. And it is hard for a person of faith, namely myself, to always check it at the door. Does this mean I am not a good leader or a moral and equal person? No!
             
            I don't believe religion has ever been thrown around in anyone's face or used as a mean to say "I told you so".
             
            While I respect your belief, I would strongly argue against it because that would not welcome all. It would push back and possibly discriminate against people whom do have a faith. Outlaw mandatory or "state" religions, but not faith of the people. 
             
             
            This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private, proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
            -------Original Message-------
             
            From: Gart
            Date: 10/17/05 12:13:57
            Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door
             

            Hi all!

            I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

            Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

            In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

            Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

            Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

             

            Gart

            Amsterdam

             
          • Jase
            Bill, That was what I was attempting to say. That we should be able to have our own beliefs. That religion hasn t been thrown around to members of the GLK by
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
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              Bill,
               
              That was what I was attempting to say. That we should be able to have our own beliefs. That religion hasn't been thrown around to members of the GLK by those who represent it. Yes, i agree that most public Christians are evil and vile. i have suffered many an injury and abuse at their hands. But to outright say the kingdom should be able to have faith is wrong in my book. We should be able to worship or not whom we wish. We shouldn't outright outlaw ALL religion! 
               
               
              This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private, proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
              -------Original Message-------
               
              Date: 10/17/05 12:38:12
              Subject: RE: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door
               
              I dunno, some of the most public Christians seem to be fairly evil folk.  I'd much rather be in charge of my own beliefs over trusting it to my neighbor, or my government.
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jase
              Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:28 PM
              To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

              Gart,
               
              Respectfully, just because you do not believe in G-d or a higher being, does not mean that we as a community should outlaw faith and religion. What we should outlaw is a mandatory or "state" religion. There are many faiths that are gay inclusive and welcoming. And it is hard for a person of faith, namely myself, to always check it at the door. Does this mean I am not a good leader or a moral and equal person? No!
               
              I don't believe religion has ever been thrown around in anyone's face or used as a mean to say "I told you so".
               
              While I respect your belief, I would strongly argue against it because that would not welcome all. It would push back and possibly discriminate against people whom do have a faith. Outlaw mandatory or "state" religions, but not faith of the people. 
               
               
              This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private, proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.
              -------Original Message-------
               
              From: Gart
              Date: 10/17/05 12:13:57
              Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door
               

              Hi all!

              I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

              Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

              In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

              Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

              Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

               

              Gart

              Amsterdam

               
               
            • SEBama1
              Gart, For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the checking of your religion at the door
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 17, 2005
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                Gart,
                    For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at the door".
                    With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart, just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on. At what point do we stop?
                Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and who may I ask is to make this decision?
                    Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as we are already limited in our current societies.
                 
                Louis Trusty
                 
                 
                 
                From: Gart
                Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:32 AM
                Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

                Hi all!

                I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

                Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

                In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

                Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

                Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

                 

                Gart

                Amsterdam

              • Anthony N. Urwin
                Hello ALL: I would tend to agree with Gart. I live in the Netherlands as well, and we have essentially a complete secular society and government with complete
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
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                  Hello ALL:

                   

                              I would tend to agree with Gart. I live in the Netherlands as well, and we have essentially a complete secular society and government with complete rights for gays and lesbians. If that isn’t a model for this “venture” into a gay state, I don’t know what country would be. I would definitely say that the NL is far more secular in government policies and legal legislation than the United States. This is most evidently seen when the Dutch government passed gay marriage. It was not a religious battle. I think what Gart is saying, correct me if I am wrong, is that religion has absolutely no place in politics, running affairs of state or even being mentioned in a constitution, save mentioning that religion is a freedom that you can enjoy; period. Religion organized or otherwise should never be mentioned in any official capacity. I think it’s simpler for everyone and makes more logistical sense. Religion is just one of those things that really offend people no matter where you come from. Most of peoples dislike toward gays and lesbians stems from religion. If for example you see that a tree you have planted is becoming sick and weak. With further inspection you see that it is the soil. Do you keep allowing the soil to remain to kill the tree or do you remove the soil all together and plant it in new fresh soil not tainted by the old soil?

                   

                  Well, just my thoughts…and thanks for listening…

                   

                  Anthony

                   


                  From: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SEBama1
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 06:23
                  To: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

                   

                  Gart,

                      For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at the door".

                      With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart, just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on. At what point do we stop?

                  Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and who may I ask is to make this decision?

                      Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as we are already limited in our current societies.

                   

                  Louis Trusty

                   

                   

                   

                  From: Gart

                  Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:32 AM

                  Subject: [gaykingdom] Please check your religion at the door

                   

                  Hi all!

                  I have been following the debates here for a while now, and I would like to make a suggestion: Please check your religion at the door, or for future immigrants into the gay kingdom; at customs upon entry.

                  Religion has brought us nothing but pain and suffering and is the direct cause of all anti-gay discrimination worldwide. Therefore it is one of the main reasons why we want a sovereign state to begin with.

                  In my humble opinion, there is no god. I don't even believe in Santa Claus, and I can see him!

                  Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, of course, but faith is a private matter and it should remain that way. It is irritating to me that god gets dragged into these debates all the time. I think we should establish that the foundation of the gay kingdom is strictly a legal and political matter, and specifically a non-religious one.

                  Even in a gay state, religion can become a source of division and conflict. I say; outlaw and abolish all organized religion from the gay state and make it a constitutional amendment that organized religion has no place there.

                   

                  Gart

                  Amsterdam

                • Gart
                  Hi Louis, First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I appreciate you taking the time to put your points across. Louis, I don t see how you
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
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                    Hi Louis,

                    First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
                    appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
                    Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
                    have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
                    is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
                    so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
                    and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
                    convictions but keep them to themselves.

                    Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
                    free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
                    someone from believing, and why should you want to?

                    The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
                    religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
                    movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
                    government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
                    disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
                    neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
                    start: at zero.

                    This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
                    organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
                    amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
                    whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
                    than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
                    leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
                    kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
                    establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
                    should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
                    in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
                    be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
                    do.

                    As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
                    offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
                    others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
                    beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
                    and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
                    Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
                    intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
                    and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
                    yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
                    also on this list.

                    I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
                    and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
                    gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
                    religion from government and public life, we could set an example
                    for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
                    anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
                    conflicts throughout history.

                    Gart
                    Amsterdam


                    --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Gart,
                    > For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
                    with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
                    religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
                    the door".
                    > With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
                    just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
                    At what point do we stop?
                    > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
                    who may I ask is to make this decision?
                    > Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
                    we are already limited in our current societies.
                    >
                    > Louis Trusty
                    >
                  • Michael P. Gronseth
                    Let me toss in my perspective on this issue. The First Amendment of the US Constitution forbids the establishment of a national church. The Fourteenth
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 18, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Let me toss in my perspective on this issue.

                      The First Amendment of the US Constitution forbids the establishment
                      of a national church. The Fourteenth Amendment extends that to the
                      states. Much debate and interpretation over the last 200+ years has
                      been found in the nature of what exactly is "establishment of
                      religion"? Is it like in the country of England where the Sovereign
                      as Head of State is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of
                      England? Does supporting worthwhile charities of all kinds through
                      grants and other taxpayer funding, regardless of the theology or lack
                      thereof constitute establishment? (1)

                      What I see by many in the gay community is a completely anti-
                      Christian backlash. Yes, our oppressors often cite religious beliefs
                      as a justification for continued discrimination, but other
                      justifications exist. Yet there are many, many good Christian people
                      out there who are supportive of their gay brothers and sisters. The
                      (Episcopal) Diocese of New Hampshire popularly elected a non-celibate
                      gay man as its bishop. That election was supported by the Episcopal
                      Church of the USA, the American "branch" of Anglicanism. Even the
                      Rev. Jerry Falwell, who in the past has been a virulent critic of the
                      gay community and homosexuality in general, has acknowledged that
                      housing and employment are not "special" rights to be denied to gay
                      Americans. To paint all people of faith with the same brush is to
                      treat them in a similar fashion like gay men and women have been
                      treated by a subset of the faithful. In other words, not all
                      Christians (or Jews, or Muslims or etc.) are like the Rev. Fred
                      Phelps of www.godhatesfags.com.

                      No government can be completely secular. Personal faith informs the
                      actions of individuals as much as personal experience and education.
                      They say here in the US, "you can take the boy out of the country,
                      but you can't take the country out of the boy." When it comes to
                      politicians and bureaucrats of all kinds, you can't take the faith
                      out of the person. It forms an integral part of an individual as much
                      as their race or sexual orientation do. The best aim is to
                      disestablish religion, or never establish it at all. On the federal
                      level, the USA has never had the equivalent of the Church of England
                      or the Lutheran Church in Norway. Under American jurisprudence, the
                      Supreme Court has been asked many times to decide if a particular
                      relationship between Church and State is an establishment. Some
                      policies have been upheld over the years such as not taxing Churches.
                      Others like the display of the Ten Commandments or school organized
                      prayer have not. Where the line is drawn is the sand will always be a
                      matter of debate. One cannot criminalize thought, not even religious
                      thought. One can regulate how much deference or support the Church
                      receives.
                      --
                      Michael P. Gronseth
                      Negaunee, MI

                      (1) Historically, aid and relief efforts in response to tragedies
                      have come through non governmental means. Individuals turned to
                      private charities or their church congregation in times of need.
                      Government intervention and direct aid efforts are a much more recent
                      development. Recent proposals by the current administration in
                      Washington seek to allow all charities to compete for federal grants
                      regardless of the secular or religious nature of the applicant
                      organization. Also, private sector contributions in the US for global
                      crises such as the tsunami typically out number official government aid.
                    • James Nunn
                      It appears the simplest way to deal with this is have, as part of the Constitution, a reference that states the Gay Kingdom will not recognize, support or
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 19, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        It appears the simplest way to deal with this is have, as part of the Constitution, a reference that states "the Gay Kingdom will not recognize, support or oppose any one religious tradition over another." To ensure that this never changes (or at least makes it difficult to change), the Constitutional Amendment process should stipulate that this section (or the section that covers the "Bill of Rights") may only be amended with an affirmative vote of no less than 90% (or some other figure), and that that vote must be confirmed by a second vote no earlier than three months after the first vote, with the same percentage.

                        This would clearly put this matter back into the hands of the people of the Kingdom.

                        Just a thought.

                        James

                        On 10/18/05, Gart <gzeebregts@...> wrote:
                        Hi Louis,

                        First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
                        appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
                        Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
                        have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
                        is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
                        so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
                        and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
                        convictions but keep them to themselves.

                        Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
                        free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
                        someone from believing, and why should you want to?

                        The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
                        religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
                        movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
                        government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
                        disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
                        neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
                        start: at zero.

                        This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
                        organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
                        amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
                        whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
                        than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
                        leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
                        kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
                        establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
                        should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
                        in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
                        be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
                        do.

                        As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
                        offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
                        others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
                        beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
                        and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
                        Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
                        intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
                        and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
                        yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
                        also on this list.

                        I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
                        and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
                        gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
                        religion from government and public life, we could set an example
                        for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
                        anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
                        conflicts throughout history.

                        Gart
                        Amsterdam



                        --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gart,
                        >     For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
                        with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
                        religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
                        the door".
                        >     With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
                        just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
                        At what point do we stop?
                        > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
                        who may I ask is to make this decision?
                        >     Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
                        we are already limited in our current societies.
                        >
                        > Louis Trusty
                        >







                        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS






                        --
                        James D. Nunn <jdnunn@...>
                        "When we lose the right to be different, we lose the right to be free." Charles Evans Hughes
                      • Anthony N. Urwin
                        Mooi geschreven! Anthony Amsterdam ________________________________ Van: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com namens Gart Verzonden: wo 19-10-2005 0:24 Aan:
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 25, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Mooi geschreven!

                          Anthony
                          Amsterdam

                          ________________________________

                          Van: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com namens Gart
                          Verzonden: wo 19-10-2005 0:24
                          Aan: gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com
                          Onderwerp: [gaykingdom] Re: Please check your religion at the door


                          Hi Louis,

                          First of all; thanks everyone who responded to my posting. I
                          appreciate you taking the time to put your points across.
                          Louis, I don't see how you compare religion to sexuality. The two
                          have nothing in common whatsoever. You ask me; where do we stop. It
                          is actually quite easy. In these matters you can only stop at zero,
                          so everyone is clear on the matter. Faith should be a private thing
                          and believers of any persuasion should not flaunt their religious
                          convictions but keep them to themselves.

                          Let me stress once again that I think anyone and everyone should be
                          free to believe what they want. Anyway, how are you going to stop
                          someone from believing, and why should you want to?

                          The Gay Kingdom as a political body wants to remain 'neutral' on
                          religious matters. I think that would be a mistake. Religious
                          movements of any kind could gain power and influence while the gay
                          government tries to maintain its neutrality. The results could be
                          disastrous. It wouldn't be the first time. So instead of maintaining
                          neutrality, the gay government should draw the line right from the
                          start: at zero.

                          This means that believers of any kind should not be allowed to form
                          organizations for any other purpose than to celebrate their faith
                          amongst themselves, in their own houses, mosks, temples, churches,
                          whatever. No religious group should have leaders that oversee more
                          than their own group or house. Religious groups that take their
                          leadership and direction from non-gay leaders outside of the gay
                          kingdom (most notably the catholic church) should not be allowed to
                          establish chapters in the gay kingdom at all. Religious leaders
                          should not be allowed to engage in any political activity, not even
                          in political endorsements. And of course religious groups should not
                          be tax-exempt, but just get tax deductions for the charity work they
                          do.

                          As a non-believer and a gay man who knows his history, I take
                          offense when confronted with what should be the personal beliefs of
                          others. Apart from my personal opinion about religion and religious
                          beliefs, I want to reserve the right to be spared the unsollicited
                          and unwanted expressions of other people's personal matters.
                          Discretion and respect are the key. I don't want strangers to
                          intrude on my life with anything from loud pounding music, garbage
                          and dog shit, and public conversations on cell phones, to their
                          yeast infections on private body parts. Their spiritual beliefs are
                          also on this list.

                          I don't presume to have all the answers, but I think it is important
                          and useful to have the debate on religion (and spirituality) in the
                          gay kingdom. I think, as the first state worldwide to truly abolish
                          religion from government and public life, we could set an example
                          for the rest of the world. For religion is not just the root of all
                          anti-gay violence and oppression, it is also the cause of most armed
                          conflicts throughout history.

                          Gart
                          Amsterdam


                          --- In gaykingdom@yahoogroups.com, "SEBama1" <sebama1@g...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Gart,
                          > For one, I appreciate the fact that you have been keeping up
                          with the debates. However, I have to compare the "checking of your
                          religion at the door" with the idea of "checking your sexuality at
                          the door".
                          > With all this in mind I have but one question to ask you Gart,
                          just for you (and anyone else in this thought pattern) to ponder on.
                          At what point do we stop?
                          > Stop telling people what or how to believe, think, live? Oh, and
                          who may I ask is to make this decision?
                          > Can someone tell me when do we stop limiting others rights as
                          we are already limited in our current societies.
                          >
                          > Louis Trusty
                          >







                          ________________________________

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