Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"

Expand Messages
  • dupont3@juno.com
    So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a rich man, but what does that have to do with aid to develop the infrastructure of the country? Take
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 28, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a rich man, but
      what does that have to do with aid to develop the infrastructure of the
      country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth and actions of
      the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that we give the
      country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth of aid and
      technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt receives over
      5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel. Egypt has a
      President who has been in office for years and is considered in the same
      way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how controversial the Israeli
      aid package is, yet the money still flows.
      So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when you consider the
      big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
      Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue to bark up the
      wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how development
      can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues confronting Gabonese"
      can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President Bongo is a
      master of.
      In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on its face. Do we
      have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling over money.
      All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs would be met
      by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
      While you take for granted the leadership of a country with 40 years of
      stability, other countries are being thrown into living hells because of
      violent conflict.
      We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Angola,
      Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want to instigate
      that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your mind!

      Ciao,
      dupont





      On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...> writes:
      > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF and World Bank
      > to
      > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the infrastructure of
      >
      > the country."
      >
      > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo shill who
      > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all Gabonese and
      >
      > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his and President
      > Omar Bongo's pockets.
      >
      > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has expatriated
      > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his personal bank
      > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc. at the
      > expense of all Gabonese.
      >
      > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a very
      > positive
      > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the right
      > choices....
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • C Yombi
      IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org - A web site operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods of instability like the
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 28, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org - A web site
        operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods of instability
        like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which Bongo suppressed with
        help of the French military.

        Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to why after nearly 40
        years of "stability", with an obviously rich and "intelligent" leader who
        has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present state of degradation?
        Why does the government still request are Peace Corps volunteers to provide
        economic, agricultural and education development instead of relying on its
        own people and why are the navigable roads almost non-existent outside of
        the capital?


        >From: dupont3@...
        >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
        >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
        >
        >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a rich man, but
        >what does that have to do with aid to develop the infrastructure of the
        >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth and actions of
        >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that we give the
        >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth of aid and
        >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt receives over
        >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel. Egypt has a
        >President who has been in office for years and is considered in the same
        >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how controversial the Israeli
        >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
        >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when you consider the
        >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
        >Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue to bark up the
        >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how development
        >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues confronting Gabonese"
        >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President Bongo is a
        >master of.
        >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on its face. Do we
        >have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling over money.
        >All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs would be met
        >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
        >While you take for granted the leadership of a country with 40 years of
        >stability, other countries are being thrown into living hells because of
        >violent conflict.
        >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Angola,
        >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want to instigate
        >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your mind!
        >
        >Ciao,
        >dupont
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...> writes:
        > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF and World Bank
        > > to
        > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the infrastructure of
        > >
        > > the country."
        > >
        > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo shill who
        > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all Gabonese and
        > >
        > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his and President
        > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
        > >
        > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has expatriated
        > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his personal bank
        > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc. at the
        > > expense of all Gabonese.
        > >
        > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a very
        > > positive
        > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the right
        > > choices....
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >

        _________________________________________________________________
        Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
        http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
      • bobutne
        Too bad that the vast majority of Gabonese intellectuals have fled Gabon to come to the US and France. They are a resource that Gabon badly needs. Concerning
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 28, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Too bad that the vast majority of Gabonese intellectuals have fled
          Gabon to come to the US and France. They are a resource that Gabon
          badly needs.

          Concerning the Peace Corps, when I was in Gabon last year I had
          lunch with the mayor/directeur of Kango. He pleaded with me (he
          wrongly thought I was still connected with the peace Corps) for the
          Peace Corps to come into his area citing terrible problems that he
          was unable to cope with. According to the Directeur, the medical
          situation was dire, there were inadequate funds for education, very
          high unemployment and crime was increasing.

          And the roads.... When I attempted to drive from Lambarene to
          Fougamou (a trip I took often in 1964) the road was so bad I had to
          turn around about half way there. The road had greatly worsened and
          this wasn't even in the rainy period. Where you can travel on the
          roads, expect to be frequently stopped by the Gabonese military or
          police. This never occurred when I was in Gabon in the 60's.


          --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "C Yombi" <c_yombi@h...>
          wrote:
          > IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org - A web
          site
          > operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods of
          instability
          > like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which Bongo
          suppressed with
          > help of the French military.
          >
          > Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to why after
          nearly 40
          > years of "stability", with an obviously rich and "intelligent"
          leader who
          > has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present state of
          degradation?
          > Why does the government still request are Peace Corps volunteers
          to provide
          > economic, agricultural and education development instead of
          relying on its
          > own people and why are the navigable roads almost non-existent
          outside of
          > the capital?
          >
          >
          > >From: dupont3@j...
          > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
          > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
          > >
          > >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a rich
          man, but
          > >what does that have to do with aid to develop the infrastructure
          of the
          > >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth and
          actions of
          > >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that we give
          the
          > >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth of aid
          and
          > >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt
          receives over
          > >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel. Egypt has
          a
          > >President who has been in office for years and is considered in
          the same
          > >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how controversial the
          Israeli
          > >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
          > >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when you
          consider the
          > >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
          > >Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue to bark
          up the
          > >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how
          development
          > >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues confronting
          Gabonese"
          > >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President Bongo
          is a
          > >master of.
          > >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on its
          face. Do we
          > >have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling over
          money.
          > >All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs would
          be met
          > >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
          > >While you take for granted the leadership of a country with 40
          years of
          > >stability, other countries are being thrown into living hells
          because of
          > >violent conflict.
          > >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia, Zimbabwe,
          Angola,
          > >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want to
          instigate
          > >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your mind!
          > >
          > >Ciao,
          > >dupont
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...>
          writes:
          > > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF and World
          Bank
          > > > to
          > > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the
          infrastructure of
          > > >
          > > > the country."
          > > >
          > > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo shill
          who
          > > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all
          Gabonese and
          > > >
          > > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his and
          President
          > > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
          > > >
          > > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has expatriated
          > > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his personal
          bank
          > > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc. at the
          > > > expense of all Gabonese.
          > > >
          > > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a very
          > > > positive
          > > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the right
          > > > choices....
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > >
          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
          > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
        • dupont3@juno.com
          That is an opposition web site run by those who oppose President Bongo. I would wager that the views expressed there do not represent the majority of the
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 28, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            That is an opposition web site run by those who oppose President Bongo. I
            would wager that the views expressed there do not represent the majority
            of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web site of the
            Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats!
            I take it as a sign that the democratic process is working in Gabon.

            I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil rich, is the
            US policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one really
            have anything to do with the other? Why do you have such a tunnel vision
            of politics is the better question?
            Gabon needs international aid just like Israel needs aid or Egypt needs
            aid or any of the multitude of 3rd world countries that should have their
            debt written off for the sake of economic development and stability
            around the world. It is ridiculous to have these countries who need help
            paying off rich nations who are then spending billions fighting wars. The
            decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone knows how to
            fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some inexperienced
            rag-tagged opposition leader.
            We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads need to be
            built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing is some
            opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for political gain.
            They call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or schools
            and hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings.
            Everything else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the quest
            for power. That is the real shame with this debate. The fact that if
            these people had their way little would change for the better.

            One thing that made America great is that in times of the greatest
            crisis, the people put aside their differences and worked together for
            their country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
            Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was destined to
            succeed.
            Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that we have lost a
            lot of that.We have polarization between Republicans and Democrats in the
            quest for more power and little if anything gets done effectively. You
            see good ideas being lost in meaningless debate. It gets worse cause it
            seems like now the vibe has spread like a virus around the world as
            people in other nations, heavily influenced by the US, take on a sort of
            copycat mentality and emulate the BAD apples in our system with good
            intentions for their own. Is the Gabon opposition now just a sign of the
            times?

            The people in Gabon need to get together with their President and figure
            out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out of their
            country at this time probably do not and should not be there in the
            first place. Imagine if that happened in hard times in the US.
            Gabonese also need to take stock of what they have and as the saying
            goes, "be careful what you wish for." Cause most times the answer to
            problems is right under you nose. In the case of Gabon, I believe that
            the answer lies in the support of President Bongo and a faith in his most
            capable leadership. Once united with the President, the important steps
            needed to take become clear and pressure on international aid
            organizations has the best chance for success.

            Ciao,
            dupont










            On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:52:00 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
            writes:
            > IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org - A web
            > site
            > operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods of
            > instability
            > like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which Bongo suppressed
            > with
            > help of the French military.
            >
            > Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to why after
            > nearly 40
            > years of "stability", with an obviously rich and "intelligent"
            > leader who
            > has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present state of
            > degradation?
            > Why does the government still request are Peace Corps volunteers to
            > provide
            > economic, agricultural and education development instead of relying
            > on its
            > own people and why are the navigable roads almost non-existent
            > outside of
            > the capital?
            >
            >
            > >From: dupont3@...
            > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
            > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
            > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
            > >
            > >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a rich man,
            > but
            > >what does that have to do with aid to develop the infrastructure of
            > the
            > >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth and
            > actions of
            > >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that we give
            > the
            > >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth of aid
            > and
            > >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt
            > receives over
            > >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel. Egypt has
            > a
            > >President who has been in office for years and is considered in the
            > same
            > >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how controversial the
            > Israeli
            > >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
            > >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when you
            > consider the
            > >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
            > >Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue to bark up
            > the
            > >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how
            > development
            > >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues confronting
            > Gabonese"
            > >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President Bongo is
            > a
            > >master of.
            > >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on its face.
            > Do we
            > >have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling over
            > money.
            > >All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs would be
            > met
            > >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
            > >While you take for granted the leadership of a country with 40
            > years of
            > >stability, other countries are being thrown into living hells
            > because of
            > >violent conflict.
            > >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia, Zimbabwe,
            > Angola,
            > >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want to
            > instigate
            > >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your mind!
            > >
            > >Ciao,
            > >dupont
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...>
            > writes:
            > > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF and World
            > Bank
            > > > to
            > > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the infrastructure
            > of
            > > >
            > > > the country."
            > > >
            > > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo shill
            > who
            > > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all Gabonese
            > and
            > > >
            > > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his and
            > President
            > > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
            > > >
            > > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has expatriated
            > > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his personal
            > bank
            > > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc. at the
            > > > expense of all Gabonese.
            > > >
            > > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a very
            > > > positive
            > > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the right
            > > > choices....
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
            > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
            >
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • bobutne
            This is what happens to opposition in Gabon. http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/FRAAFR260012003?open&of=FRA-2AF
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 28, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
            • bobutne
              English version of below link: Five members of the Gabonese party of opposition Bongo Must Leave (also called BDP-Gabon Nouveau) are maintained in detention
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 28, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                English version of below link:

                Five members of the Gabonese party of opposition Bongo Must Leave
                (also called BDP-Gabon Nouveau) are maintained in detention since
                more than one month. The leaders of this movement show the
                authorities to retain these captive men for political reasons.
                Insofar as they are held only because they expressed their political
                opinions, in a legitimate way and without resorting to violence nor
                to preach its use, Amnesty International regards them as prisoners of
                opinion. Brice Obanda, Gervais Amogo, Abdul Allogo Mintsa and Pascal
                Nkoulou were stopped on last 3 July because they would have stuck in
                the capital, Libreville, of the posters asking for the departure of
                Omar Bongo, president of Gabon since trente-six years. They would
                have also painted slogans in a district where the president was to
                make a speech during a political round. July 11, Hughes Bessacque,
                president of the national Coordinating committee of new BDP-Gabon,
                was also apprehended. The authorities reproach the five men for
                having insulted the Head of the State and disturbed the law and
                order, but they were not formally accused. Moreover, some of the
                prisoners (perhaps even all) would have been coiled blows right after
                their arrest, but no source made state of acts of torture or other
                forms of ill treatments since then. Initially, the five men were
                retained captive with the Directorate-General of research, a center
                of detention of the services of information located in the center of
                Libreville, where the people stopped for political reasons are
                generally questioned. July 11, they were presented at a magistrate,
                who ordered their placement in detention in the central prison of
                Large-Bouquet, in Libreville, for one unspecified duration. During
                this audience, the prisoners could not profit from a legal
                assistance, whereas under the terms of the Gabonese legislation, a
                lawyer should have been made to them of office. The close relations
                of the five men were not authorized to hear the decision of the
                court. Their personal lawyer could consult their file only the 8 or
                on August 9. For the family of the five men, it was very difficult to
                see the prisoners. Hughes Bessacque made two crises of malaria since
                the beginning of its detention, but it was not authorized to consult
                a doctor. Its close relations could do what is necessary so that it
                is neat. They sometimes had to entrust drugs and clothes to guards,
                who would have required bribes. The prisoners started a hunger strike
                at the beginning of August to protest against their prolonged
                detention. They would have refused the drugs which were proposed to
                them. According to information's collected, they absorb only water
                and milk, and seem very thinned down and weakened.

                ACTION RECOMMENDED: in the calls which you will forward as quickly as
                possible to the recipients mentioned hereafter (in French or in your
                own language): ? make share of your concern as for the detention
                prolonged of Hughes Bessacque, Brice Obanda, Gervais Amogo, Abdul
                Allogo Mintsa and Pascal Nkoulou, all members of BDP-Gabon; ? ask
                urgently that they are immediately released, insofar as they were
                stopped only because they had expressed their political opinions,
                without resorting to violence nor to preach its use, and where it
                acts, consequently, of prisoners of opinion; ? you anxious for the
                health and the wellbeing of these men say; ? you declare worried by
                the fact that the audience during which them placement in detention
                was ordered was not in conformity with the international standards of
                equity most elementary, and invite the authorities to respect
                those; ? exhortez the Gabonese authorities to allow to the citizens
                country to exert their civil laws and political without fear of
                reprisals.



                --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "bobutne" <bobutne@a...>
                wrote:
                > This is what happens to opposition in Gabon.
                > http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/FRAAFR260012003?open&of=FRA-2AF
              • C Yombi
                As much as you chastize others for being against Bongo, you seem as blindly for Bongo. I have yet to see any evidence to support your views on his leadership.
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 29, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  As much as you chastize others for being against Bongo, you seem as blindly
                  for Bongo. I have yet to see any evidence to support your views on his
                  leadership. It is not Bongo that keeps the stability in Gabon, but the
                  threat of intervention from the French military to protect oil interests.
                  You never addressed the student uprisings I mentioned the last time.


                  "I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil rich, is the US
                  policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one really have
                  anything to do with the other?"

                  You try to skillfully say a lot without much substance. Any political
                  economist knows that economics and politics go hand in hand. Try looking up
                  Ali Mazrui from Tanzania. The US foreign policy directly ties in with US
                  economic interests both at home and abroad. Of course one has to do with
                  another. Do you really think that one family like the Bush family would
                  participate in politics if there was not an economic incentive involved?
                  They may be oil rich but the US does not have enough oil reserves to
                  fullfill the demands of US CONSUMPTION. That is a plain reason why Bush is
                  mixing US domestic interests with US foreign policy. Wh do you keep
                  mentioning US foreign policy when we are debating Gabonese domestic policy?

                  "I would wager that the views expressed there do not represent the majority
                  of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web site of the
                  Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats! I take it as a
                  sign that the democratic process is working in Gabon."

                  The very fact that Bongo has to take political prisoners to try and stop
                  political dissent does not point to democracy. These people do not feel safe
                  enough to voice their opinions in Gabon. You would wager that you know a lot
                  about the ideas of Gabon but when faced with real opposition to the current
                  political climate in Gabon you wager that it is a lie. The reason why the
                  republican party is a valuable resource in a democratic presidential climate
                  is that it helps to insure checks and balances on either side.

                  "The decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone knows how
                  to fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some inexperienced
                  rag-tagged opposition leader."

                  The decline in oil revenues is nothing new. Bongo has had plenty of time to
                  try and "fix" the situation. Any political economist knows that
                  diversification of revenue generating income resources is the key to long
                  tern generation of wealth, not continuing to rely on cash crop resources
                  like timber and oil. Do you actually have any knowledge of the opposition
                  candidates and their qualifications? What were Bongo's qualifications when
                  he took over the presidency?

                  "We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads need to be
                  built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing is some
                  opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for political gain.They
                  call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or schools and
                  hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings. Everything
                  else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the quest for power. That
                  is the real shame with this debate. The fact that if these people had their
                  way little would change for the better."

                  Again, politics and economics go hand in hand. You mention "new politicians
                  controlling the purse strings" - so now you are admitting that is what Bongo
                  is doing? You still have not addressed the issues -if Bongo is such a
                  capable leader with the supreme knowledge of how to fix the problems of
                  Gabon - why is he not trying to fix them? It is easy to dismiss dissent as
                  just another one trying to grab power. Why not address the issues raised on
                  the web site instead of dismissing any call against Bongo as pure greed? You
                  did not address the development issues I asked about the last time - i.e.
                  why are NGOs and Peace Corps the primary educational, agricultural, and
                  developmental support in Gabon? Where are all the jobs for the educated
                  Gabonese who are passing the BAC?

                  "One thing that made America great is that in times of the greatest crisis,
                  the people put aside their differences and worked together for their
                  country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                  Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was destined to
                  succeed. Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that we have
                  lost a lot of that."

                  Yet again you are trying to separate politics and economics. The Civil War
                  was just that - a war over the economic of slavery. Where is the unity of a
                  civil war. Ask anyone who is a southerner and they will tell you that the
                  Civil War is STILL one of the most divisive issues around. The South was
                  forced as loser of the war to accept the policies of the North - it was not
                  because of love of country. The Great Depression was an economic situation
                  that forced political action. After 911, there was and still is a great deal
                  of unity around the issue of controlling terrorism. But the thing that makes
                  the US an interesting place is that we have the FREEDOM to dissent without
                  fear of detention. For those detained, at least historically, there is the
                  precedent of due process.

                  "The people in Gabon need to get together with their President and figure
                  out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out of their
                  country at this time probably do not and should not be there in the first
                  place."

                  How many Americans live abroad for any number of reasons? Does this mean
                  they have no right to comment on their country. Since when does location
                  determine nationality? Does that mean that the Dali Lama has no right to be
                  the leader of Nepal because he lives in India? Does that mean that economic
                  and political refugees have no right to want to see a better country to
                  return to?

                  I, again, ask Mr. Dupont to give some substantial reasoning behind the idea
                  that Bongo is the way to go rather than jumping back and forth between
                  criticizing the US foreign policy and Bush. Let's take the United States
                  policies out of it a minute and look at GABON. France is one of Gabon's
                  biggest trading partners. Where is the criticism for France or China? Gabon
                  has billions of dollars of foreign debt which it can never repay but you
                  propose giving more and more? That is hardly the answer. One thing I do
                  agree with you on is forgiving 3rd world nations their debts. But this would
                  make little difference if these same nations are still stuck in the economic
                  and political patterns that got them into the debt in the first place. How
                  would you propose to change this in Gabon with or without Bongo? That is the
                  real issue - after all Bongo will die sooner or later. What about the
                  looming AIDS crisis in Gabon and its economic impacts? Or may be Bongo has a
                  handle on that already too?

                  "Once united with the President, the important steps needed to take become
                  clear and pressure on international aid organizations has the best chance
                  for success."

                  You have already stated that you believe Bongo to be a popularly elected
                  president of Gabon. If this is really the case, why are you waiting for
                  popular supportto make a better Gabon? If the opposition like the BDPgabon
                  is not a real opposition then why should Bongo worry about them at all? We
                  all know that current global economic trends will change only very slowly
                  and if we wait for that to happen then it will be too late for Gabon - Bongo
                  or not. International aid has never brought any country long term economic
                  stability. It is but a band aid on a gaping wound. Any leader as stellar as
                  you claim Bongo to be would not need to rely on foreign aid to be the savior
                  of his administration.

                  "Cause most times the answer to problems is right under you nose. " Exactly.



                  >From: dupont3@...
                  >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                  >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:54:08 -0700
                  >
                  >That is an opposition web site run by those who oppose President Bongo. I
                  >would wager that the views expressed there do not represent the majority
                  >of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web site of the
                  >Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats!
                  >I take it as a sign that the democratic process is working in Gabon.
                  >
                  >I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil rich, is the
                  >US policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one really
                  >have anything to do with the other? Why do you have such a tunnel vision
                  >of politics is the better question?
                  >Gabon needs international aid just like Israel needs aid or Egypt needs
                  >aid or any of the multitude of 3rd world countries that should have their
                  >debt written off for the sake of economic development and stability
                  >around the world. It is ridiculous to have these countries who need help
                  >paying off rich nations who are then spending billions fighting wars. The
                  >decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone knows how to
                  >fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some inexperienced
                  >rag-tagged opposition leader.
                  >We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads need to be
                  >built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing is some
                  >opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for political gain.
                  >They call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or schools
                  >and hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings.
                  >Everything else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the quest
                  >for power. That is the real shame with this debate. The fact that if
                  >these people had their way little would change for the better.
                  >
                  >One thing that made America great is that in times of the greatest
                  >crisis, the people put aside their differences and worked together for
                  >their country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                  >Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was destined to
                  >succeed.
                  >Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that we have lost a
                  >lot of that.We have polarization between Republicans and Democrats in the
                  >quest for more power and little if anything gets done effectively. You
                  >see good ideas being lost in meaningless debate. It gets worse cause it
                  >seems like now the vibe has spread like a virus around the world as
                  >people in other nations, heavily influenced by the US, take on a sort of
                  >copycat mentality and emulate the BAD apples in our system with good
                  >intentions for their own. Is the Gabon opposition now just a sign of the
                  >times?
                  >
                  >The people in Gabon need to get together with their President and figure
                  >out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out of their
                  >country at this time probably do not and should not be there in the
                  >first place. Imagine if that happened in hard times in the US.
                  >Gabonese also need to take stock of what they have and as the saying
                  >goes, "be careful what you wish for." Cause most times the answer to
                  >problems is right under you nose. In the case of Gabon, I believe that
                  >the answer lies in the support of President Bongo and a faith in his most
                  >capable leadership. Once united with the President, the important steps
                  >needed to take become clear and pressure on international aid
                  >organizations has the best chance for success.
                  >
                  >Ciao,
                  >dupont
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:52:00 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                  >writes:
                  > > IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org - A web
                  > > site
                  > > operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods of
                  > > instability
                  > > like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which Bongo suppressed
                  > > with
                  > > help of the French military.
                  > >
                  > > Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to why after
                  > > nearly 40
                  > > years of "stability", with an obviously rich and "intelligent"
                  > > leader who
                  > > has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present state of
                  > > degradation?
                  > > Why does the government still request are Peace Corps volunteers to
                  > > provide
                  > > economic, agricultural and education development instead of relying
                  > > on its
                  > > own people and why are the navigable roads almost non-existent
                  > > outside of
                  > > the capital?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >From: dupont3@...
                  > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                  > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
                  > > >
                  > > >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a rich man,
                  > > but
                  > > >what does that have to do with aid to develop the infrastructure of
                  > > the
                  > > >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth and
                  > > actions of
                  > > >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that we give
                  > > the
                  > > >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth of aid
                  > > and
                  > > >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt
                  > > receives over
                  > > >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel. Egypt has
                  > > a
                  > > >President who has been in office for years and is considered in the
                  > > same
                  > > >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how controversial the
                  > > Israeli
                  > > >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
                  > > >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when you
                  > > consider the
                  > > >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
                  > > >Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue to bark up
                  > > the
                  > > >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how
                  > > development
                  > > >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues confronting
                  > > Gabonese"
                  > > >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President Bongo is
                  > > a
                  > > >master of.
                  > > >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on its face.
                  > > Do we
                  > > >have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling over
                  > > money.
                  > > >All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs would be
                  > > met
                  > > >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
                  > > >While you take for granted the leadership of a country with 40
                  > > years of
                  > > >stability, other countries are being thrown into living hells
                  > > because of
                  > > >violent conflict.
                  > > >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia, Zimbabwe,
                  > > Angola,
                  > > >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want to
                  > > instigate
                  > > >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your mind!
                  > > >
                  > > >Ciao,
                  > > >dupont
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...>
                  > > writes:
                  > > > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF and World
                  > > Bank
                  > > > > to
                  > > > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the infrastructure
                  > > of
                  > > > >
                  > > > > the country."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo shill
                  > > who
                  > > > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all Gabonese
                  > > and
                  > > > >
                  > > > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his and
                  > > President
                  > > > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has expatriated
                  > > > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his personal
                  > > bank
                  > > > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc. at the
                  > > > > expense of all Gabonese.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a very
                  > > > > positive
                  > > > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the right
                  > > > > choices....
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > _________________________________________________________________
                  > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
                  > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                • dupont3@juno.com
                  Since when did we throw our hat in and all follow behind political economist? While I respect political economist views, I sure as hell do not want them
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 30, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Since when did we throw our hat in and all follow behind political
                    economist?
                    While I respect political economist views, I sure as hell do not want
                    them running my country.
                    Ya know, you have a very simpleton view of everything. I mean your
                    intentions are good but your response to some of my points is like
                    programmed media soundbites. You talk about political prisoners and how
                    Bongo, "had plenty of time to fix things" as if running a country is all
                    about whats politically correct and egalitarian.
                    I do not agree with your take on things. You want to look at Gabon's
                    problems without considering the influences of geopolitic.
                    You ignore whats happening right now in other African states like the
                    Ivory Coast. You are brainwashed by the american media. All from the
                    comfort of your US sofa!

                    Ciao,
                    dupont



                    On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:58:24 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                    writes:
                    > As much as you chastize others for being against Bongo, you seem as
                    > blindly
                    > for Bongo. I have yet to see any evidence to support your views on
                    > his
                    > leadership. It is not Bongo that keeps the stability in Gabon, but
                    > the
                    > threat of intervention from the French military to protect oil
                    > interests.
                    > You never addressed the student uprisings I mentioned the last
                    > time.
                    >
                    >
                    > "I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil rich, is
                    > the US
                    > policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one
                    > really have
                    > anything to do with the other?"
                    >
                    > You try to skillfully say a lot without much substance. Any
                    > political
                    > economist knows that economics and politics go hand in hand. Try
                    > looking up
                    > Ali Mazrui from Tanzania. The US foreign policy directly ties in
                    > with US
                    > economic interests both at home and abroad. Of course one has to do
                    > with
                    > another. Do you really think that one family like the Bush family
                    > would
                    > participate in politics if there was not an economic incentive
                    > involved?
                    > They may be oil rich but the US does not have enough oil reserves to
                    >
                    > fullfill the demands of US CONSUMPTION. That is a plain reason why
                    > Bush is
                    > mixing US domestic interests with US foreign policy. Wh do you keep
                    >
                    > mentioning US foreign policy when we are debating Gabonese domestic
                    > policy?
                    >
                    > "I would wager that the views expressed there do not represent the
                    > majority
                    > of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web site
                    > of the
                    > Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats! I take
                    > it as a
                    > sign that the democratic process is working in Gabon."
                    >
                    > The very fact that Bongo has to take political prisoners to try and
                    > stop
                    > political dissent does not point to democracy. These people do not
                    > feel safe
                    > enough to voice their opinions in Gabon. You would wager that you
                    > know a lot
                    > about the ideas of Gabon but when faced with real opposition to the
                    > current
                    > political climate in Gabon you wager that it is a lie. The reason
                    > why the
                    > republican party is a valuable resource in a democratic presidential
                    > climate
                    > is that it helps to insure checks and balances on either side.
                    >
                    > "The decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone
                    > knows how
                    > to fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some inexperienced
                    > rag-tagged opposition leader."
                    >
                    > The decline in oil revenues is nothing new. Bongo has had plenty of
                    > time to
                    > try and "fix" the situation. Any political economist knows that
                    > diversification of revenue generating income resources is the key to
                    > long
                    > tern generation of wealth, not continuing to rely on cash crop
                    > resources
                    > like timber and oil. Do you actually have any knowledge of the
                    > opposition
                    > candidates and their qualifications? What were Bongo's
                    > qualifications when
                    > he took over the presidency?
                    >
                    > "We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads need
                    > to be
                    > built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing is
                    > some
                    > opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for political
                    > gain.They
                    > call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or schools
                    > and
                    > hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings.
                    > Everything
                    > else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the quest for
                    > power. That
                    > is the real shame with this debate. The fact that if these people
                    > had their
                    > way little would change for the better."
                    >
                    > Again, politics and economics go hand in hand. You mention "new
                    > politicians
                    > controlling the purse strings" - so now you are admitting that is
                    > what Bongo
                    > is doing? You still have not addressed the issues -if Bongo is such
                    > a
                    > capable leader with the supreme knowledge of how to fix the problems
                    > of
                    > Gabon - why is he not trying to fix them? It is easy to dismiss
                    > dissent as
                    > just another one trying to grab power. Why not address the issues
                    > raised on
                    > the web site instead of dismissing any call against Bongo as pure
                    > greed? You
                    > did not address the development issues I asked about the last time -
                    > i.e.
                    > why are NGOs and Peace Corps the primary educational, agricultural,
                    > and
                    > developmental support in Gabon? Where are all the jobs for the
                    > educated
                    > Gabonese who are passing the BAC?
                    >
                    > "One thing that made America great is that in times of the greatest
                    > crisis,
                    > the people put aside their differences and worked together for
                    > their
                    > country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                    > Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was
                    > destined to
                    > succeed. Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that
                    > we have
                    > lost a lot of that."
                    >
                    > Yet again you are trying to separate politics and economics. The
                    > Civil War
                    > was just that - a war over the economic of slavery. Where is the
                    > unity of a
                    > civil war. Ask anyone who is a southerner and they will tell you
                    > that the
                    > Civil War is STILL one of the most divisive issues around. The South
                    > was
                    > forced as loser of the war to accept the policies of the North - it
                    > was not
                    > because of love of country. The Great Depression was an economic
                    > situation
                    > that forced political action. After 911, there was and still is a
                    > great deal
                    > of unity around the issue of controlling terrorism. But the thing
                    > that makes
                    > the US an interesting place is that we have the FREEDOM to dissent
                    > without
                    > fear of detention. For those detained, at least historically, there
                    > is the
                    > precedent of due process.
                    >
                    > "The people in Gabon need to get together with their President and
                    > figure
                    > out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out of
                    > their
                    > country at this time probably do not and should not be there in the
                    > first
                    > place."
                    >
                    > How many Americans live abroad for any number of reasons? Does this
                    > mean
                    > they have no right to comment on their country. Since when does
                    > location
                    > determine nationality? Does that mean that the Dali Lama has no
                    > right to be
                    > the leader of Nepal because he lives in India? Does that mean that
                    > economic
                    > and political refugees have no right to want to see a better country
                    > to
                    > return to?
                    >
                    > I, again, ask Mr. Dupont to give some substantial reasoning behind
                    > the idea
                    > that Bongo is the way to go rather than jumping back and forth
                    > between
                    > criticizing the US foreign policy and Bush. Let's take the United
                    > States
                    > policies out of it a minute and look at GABON. France is one of
                    > Gabon's
                    > biggest trading partners. Where is the criticism for France or
                    > China? Gabon
                    > has billions of dollars of foreign debt which it can never repay but
                    > you
                    > propose giving more and more? That is hardly the answer. One thing I
                    > do
                    > agree with you on is forgiving 3rd world nations their debts. But
                    > this would
                    > make little difference if these same nations are still stuck in the
                    > economic
                    > and political patterns that got them into the debt in the first
                    > place. How
                    > would you propose to change this in Gabon with or without Bongo?
                    > That is the
                    > real issue - after all Bongo will die sooner or later. What about
                    > the
                    > looming AIDS crisis in Gabon and its economic impacts? Or may be
                    > Bongo has a
                    > handle on that already too?
                    >
                    > "Once united with the President, the important steps needed to take
                    > become
                    > clear and pressure on international aid organizations has the best
                    > chance
                    > for success."
                    >
                    > You have already stated that you believe Bongo to be a popularly
                    > elected
                    > president of Gabon. If this is really the case, why are you waiting
                    > for
                    > popular supportto make a better Gabon? If the opposition like the
                    > BDPgabon
                    > is not a real opposition then why should Bongo worry about them at
                    > all? We
                    > all know that current global economic trends will change only very
                    > slowly
                    > and if we wait for that to happen then it will be too late for Gabon
                    > - Bongo
                    > or not. International aid has never brought any country long term
                    > economic
                    > stability. It is but a band aid on a gaping wound. Any leader as
                    > stellar as
                    > you claim Bongo to be would not need to rely on foreign aid to be
                    > the savior
                    > of his administration.
                    >
                    > "Cause most times the answer to problems is right under you nose. "
                    > Exactly.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >From: dupont3@...
                    > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                    > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                    > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                    > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:54:08 -0700
                    > >
                    > >That is an opposition web site run by those who oppose President
                    > Bongo. I
                    > >would wager that the views expressed there do not represent the
                    > majority
                    > >of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web site
                    > of the
                    > >Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats!
                    > >I take it as a sign that the democratic process is working in
                    > Gabon.
                    > >
                    > >I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil rich, is
                    > the
                    > >US policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one
                    > really
                    > >have anything to do with the other? Why do you have such a tunnel
                    > vision
                    > >of politics is the better question?
                    > >Gabon needs international aid just like Israel needs aid or Egypt
                    > needs
                    > >aid or any of the multitude of 3rd world countries that should have
                    > their
                    > >debt written off for the sake of economic development and
                    > stability
                    > >around the world. It is ridiculous to have these countries who need
                    > help
                    > >paying off rich nations who are then spending billions fighting
                    > wars. The
                    > >decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone knows
                    > how to
                    > >fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some inexperienced
                    > >rag-tagged opposition leader.
                    > >We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads need
                    > to be
                    > >built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing is
                    > some
                    > >opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for political
                    > gain.
                    > >They call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or
                    > schools
                    > >and hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings.
                    > >Everything else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the
                    > quest
                    > >for power. That is the real shame with this debate. The fact that
                    > if
                    > >these people had their way little would change for the better.
                    > >
                    > >One thing that made America great is that in times of the greatest
                    > >crisis, the people put aside their differences and worked together
                    > for
                    > >their country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                    > >Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was
                    > destined to
                    > >succeed.
                    > >Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that we have
                    > lost a
                    > >lot of that.We have polarization between Republicans and Democrats
                    > in the
                    > >quest for more power and little if anything gets done effectively.
                    > You
                    > >see good ideas being lost in meaningless debate. It gets worse
                    > cause it
                    > >seems like now the vibe has spread like a virus around the world
                    > as
                    > >people in other nations, heavily influenced by the US, take on a
                    > sort of
                    > >copycat mentality and emulate the BAD apples in our system with
                    > good
                    > >intentions for their own. Is the Gabon opposition now just a sign
                    > of the
                    > >times?
                    > >
                    > >The people in Gabon need to get together with their President and
                    > figure
                    > >out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out of
                    > their
                    > >country at this time probably do not and should not be there in
                    > the
                    > >first place. Imagine if that happened in hard times in the US.
                    > >Gabonese also need to take stock of what they have and as the
                    > saying
                    > >goes, "be careful what you wish for." Cause most times the answer
                    > to
                    > >problems is right under you nose. In the case of Gabon, I believe
                    > that
                    > >the answer lies in the support of President Bongo and a faith in
                    > his most
                    > >capable leadership. Once united with the President, the important
                    > steps
                    > >needed to take become clear and pressure on international aid
                    > >organizations has the best chance for success.
                    > >
                    > >Ciao,
                    > >dupont
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:52:00 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                    > >writes:
                    > > > IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org - A
                    > web
                    > > > site
                    > > > operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods of
                    > > > instability
                    > > > like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which Bongo
                    > suppressed
                    > > > with
                    > > > help of the French military.
                    > > >
                    > > > Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to why
                    > after
                    > > > nearly 40
                    > > > years of "stability", with an obviously rich and "intelligent"
                    > > > leader who
                    > > > has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present state of
                    > > > degradation?
                    > > > Why does the government still request are Peace Corps volunteers
                    > to
                    > > > provide
                    > > > economic, agricultural and education development instead of
                    > relying
                    > > > on its
                    > > > own people and why are the navigable roads almost non-existent
                    > > > outside of
                    > > > the capital?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >From: dupont3@...
                    > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                    > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
                    > > > >
                    > > > >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a rich
                    > man,
                    > > > but
                    > > > >what does that have to do with aid to develop the
                    > infrastructure of
                    > > > the
                    > > > >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth and
                    > > > actions of
                    > > > >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that we
                    > give
                    > > > the
                    > > > >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth of
                    > aid
                    > > > and
                    > > > >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt
                    > > > receives over
                    > > > >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel. Egypt
                    > has
                    > > > a
                    > > > >President who has been in office for years and is considered in
                    > the
                    > > > same
                    > > > >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how controversial
                    > the
                    > > > Israeli
                    > > > >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
                    > > > >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when you
                    > > > consider the
                    > > > >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
                    > > > >Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue to
                    > bark up
                    > > > the
                    > > > >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how
                    > > > development
                    > > > >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues
                    > confronting
                    > > > Gabonese"
                    > > > >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President Bongo
                    > is
                    > > > a
                    > > > >master of.
                    > > > >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on its
                    > face.
                    > > > Do we
                    > > > >have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling
                    > over
                    > > > money.
                    > > > >All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs
                    > would be
                    > > > met
                    > > > >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
                    > > > >While you take for granted the leadership of a country with 40
                    > > > years of
                    > > > >stability, other countries are being thrown into living hells
                    > > > because of
                    > > > >violent conflict.
                    > > > >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia, Zimbabwe,
                    > > > Angola,
                    > > > >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want to
                    > > > instigate
                    > > > >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your
                    > mind!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Ciao,
                    > > > >dupont
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...>
                    > > > writes:
                    > > > > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF and
                    > World
                    > > > Bank
                    > > > > > to
                    > > > > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the
                    > infrastructure
                    > > > of
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > the country."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo
                    > shill
                    > > > who
                    > > > > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all
                    > Gabonese
                    > > > and
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his and
                    > > > President
                    > > > > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has
                    > expatriated
                    > > > > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his
                    > personal
                    > > > bank
                    > > > > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc. at
                    > the
                    > > > > > expense of all Gabonese.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a
                    > very
                    > > > > > positive
                    > > > > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the
                    > right
                    > > > > > choices....
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
                    > > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
                    > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
                    > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
                    > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • C Yombi
                    As usual you have no response other than to insult others. What a pity that you are uninformed enough to think that political economists are not already
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 30, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      As usual you have no response other than to insult others. What a pity that
                      you are uninformed enough to think that political economists are not already
                      running your country and influencing geopolitics. You have a big ego and
                      little else. As before you offer no real solutions other than Bongospeak.
                      What a pity someone who has so much to say with so little substance. I bet
                      you also have a sofa in your house, car to drive and television to watch.
                      What a hypocrite. Unlike you, I help to support a large extended family in
                      Gabon and have a direct tie other than tourism. Grow up.

                      >From: dupont3@...
                      >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                      >Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:46:34 -0700
                      >
                      >Since when did we throw our hat in and all follow behind political
                      >economist?
                      >While I respect political economist views, I sure as hell do not want
                      >them running my country.
                      >Ya know, you have a very simpleton view of everything. I mean your
                      >intentions are good but your response to some of my points is like
                      >programmed media soundbites. You talk about political prisoners and how
                      >Bongo, "had plenty of time to fix things" as if running a country is all
                      >about whats politically correct and egalitarian.
                      >I do not agree with your take on things. You want to look at Gabon's
                      >problems without considering the influences of geopolitic.
                      >You ignore whats happening right now in other African states like the
                      >Ivory Coast. You are brainwashed by the american media. All from the
                      >comfort of your US sofa!
                      >
                      >Ciao,
                      >dupont
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:58:24 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                      >writes:
                      > > As much as you chastize others for being against Bongo, you seem as
                      > > blindly
                      > > for Bongo. I have yet to see any evidence to support your views on
                      > > his
                      > > leadership. It is not Bongo that keeps the stability in Gabon, but
                      > > the
                      > > threat of intervention from the French military to protect oil
                      > > interests.
                      > > You never addressed the student uprisings I mentioned the last
                      > > time.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil rich, is
                      > > the US
                      > > policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one
                      > > really have
                      > > anything to do with the other?"
                      > >
                      > > You try to skillfully say a lot without much substance. Any
                      > > political
                      > > economist knows that economics and politics go hand in hand. Try
                      > > looking up
                      > > Ali Mazrui from Tanzania. The US foreign policy directly ties in
                      > > with US
                      > > economic interests both at home and abroad. Of course one has to do
                      > > with
                      > > another. Do you really think that one family like the Bush family
                      > > would
                      > > participate in politics if there was not an economic incentive
                      > > involved?
                      > > They may be oil rich but the US does not have enough oil reserves to
                      > >
                      > > fullfill the demands of US CONSUMPTION. That is a plain reason why
                      > > Bush is
                      > > mixing US domestic interests with US foreign policy. Wh do you keep
                      > >
                      > > mentioning US foreign policy when we are debating Gabonese domestic
                      > > policy?
                      > >
                      > > "I would wager that the views expressed there do not represent the
                      > > majority
                      > > of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web site
                      > > of the
                      > > Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats! I take
                      > > it as a
                      > > sign that the democratic process is working in Gabon."
                      > >
                      > > The very fact that Bongo has to take political prisoners to try and
                      > > stop
                      > > political dissent does not point to democracy. These people do not
                      > > feel safe
                      > > enough to voice their opinions in Gabon. You would wager that you
                      > > know a lot
                      > > about the ideas of Gabon but when faced with real opposition to the
                      > > current
                      > > political climate in Gabon you wager that it is a lie. The reason
                      > > why the
                      > > republican party is a valuable resource in a democratic presidential
                      > > climate
                      > > is that it helps to insure checks and balances on either side.
                      > >
                      > > "The decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone
                      > > knows how
                      > > to fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some inexperienced
                      > > rag-tagged opposition leader."
                      > >
                      > > The decline in oil revenues is nothing new. Bongo has had plenty of
                      > > time to
                      > > try and "fix" the situation. Any political economist knows that
                      > > diversification of revenue generating income resources is the key to
                      > > long
                      > > tern generation of wealth, not continuing to rely on cash crop
                      > > resources
                      > > like timber and oil. Do you actually have any knowledge of the
                      > > opposition
                      > > candidates and their qualifications? What were Bongo's
                      > > qualifications when
                      > > he took over the presidency?
                      > >
                      > > "We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads need
                      > > to be
                      > > built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing is
                      > > some
                      > > opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for political
                      > > gain.They
                      > > call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or schools
                      > > and
                      > > hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings.
                      > > Everything
                      > > else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the quest for
                      > > power. That
                      > > is the real shame with this debate. The fact that if these people
                      > > had their
                      > > way little would change for the better."
                      > >
                      > > Again, politics and economics go hand in hand. You mention "new
                      > > politicians
                      > > controlling the purse strings" - so now you are admitting that is
                      > > what Bongo
                      > > is doing? You still have not addressed the issues -if Bongo is such
                      > > a
                      > > capable leader with the supreme knowledge of how to fix the problems
                      > > of
                      > > Gabon - why is he not trying to fix them? It is easy to dismiss
                      > > dissent as
                      > > just another one trying to grab power. Why not address the issues
                      > > raised on
                      > > the web site instead of dismissing any call against Bongo as pure
                      > > greed? You
                      > > did not address the development issues I asked about the last time -
                      > > i.e.
                      > > why are NGOs and Peace Corps the primary educational, agricultural,
                      > > and
                      > > developmental support in Gabon? Where are all the jobs for the
                      > > educated
                      > > Gabonese who are passing the BAC?
                      > >
                      > > "One thing that made America great is that in times of the greatest
                      > > crisis,
                      > > the people put aside their differences and worked together for
                      > > their
                      > > country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                      > > Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was
                      > > destined to
                      > > succeed. Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that
                      > > we have
                      > > lost a lot of that."
                      > >
                      > > Yet again you are trying to separate politics and economics. The
                      > > Civil War
                      > > was just that - a war over the economic of slavery. Where is the
                      > > unity of a
                      > > civil war. Ask anyone who is a southerner and they will tell you
                      > > that the
                      > > Civil War is STILL one of the most divisive issues around. The South
                      > > was
                      > > forced as loser of the war to accept the policies of the North - it
                      > > was not
                      > > because of love of country. The Great Depression was an economic
                      > > situation
                      > > that forced political action. After 911, there was and still is a
                      > > great deal
                      > > of unity around the issue of controlling terrorism. But the thing
                      > > that makes
                      > > the US an interesting place is that we have the FREEDOM to dissent
                      > > without
                      > > fear of detention. For those detained, at least historically, there
                      > > is the
                      > > precedent of due process.
                      > >
                      > > "The people in Gabon need to get together with their President and
                      > > figure
                      > > out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out of
                      > > their
                      > > country at this time probably do not and should not be there in the
                      > > first
                      > > place."
                      > >
                      > > How many Americans live abroad for any number of reasons? Does this
                      > > mean
                      > > they have no right to comment on their country. Since when does
                      > > location
                      > > determine nationality? Does that mean that the Dali Lama has no
                      > > right to be
                      > > the leader of Nepal because he lives in India? Does that mean that
                      > > economic
                      > > and political refugees have no right to want to see a better country
                      > > to
                      > > return to?
                      > >
                      > > I, again, ask Mr. Dupont to give some substantial reasoning behind
                      > > the idea
                      > > that Bongo is the way to go rather than jumping back and forth
                      > > between
                      > > criticizing the US foreign policy and Bush. Let's take the United
                      > > States
                      > > policies out of it a minute and look at GABON. France is one of
                      > > Gabon's
                      > > biggest trading partners. Where is the criticism for France or
                      > > China? Gabon
                      > > has billions of dollars of foreign debt which it can never repay but
                      > > you
                      > > propose giving more and more? That is hardly the answer. One thing I
                      > > do
                      > > agree with you on is forgiving 3rd world nations their debts. But
                      > > this would
                      > > make little difference if these same nations are still stuck in the
                      > > economic
                      > > and political patterns that got them into the debt in the first
                      > > place. How
                      > > would you propose to change this in Gabon with or without Bongo?
                      > > That is the
                      > > real issue - after all Bongo will die sooner or later. What about
                      > > the
                      > > looming AIDS crisis in Gabon and its economic impacts? Or may be
                      > > Bongo has a
                      > > handle on that already too?
                      > >
                      > > "Once united with the President, the important steps needed to take
                      > > become
                      > > clear and pressure on international aid organizations has the best
                      > > chance
                      > > for success."
                      > >
                      > > You have already stated that you believe Bongo to be a popularly
                      > > elected
                      > > president of Gabon. If this is really the case, why are you waiting
                      > > for
                      > > popular supportto make a better Gabon? If the opposition like the
                      > > BDPgabon
                      > > is not a real opposition then why should Bongo worry about them at
                      > > all? We
                      > > all know that current global economic trends will change only very
                      > > slowly
                      > > and if we wait for that to happen then it will be too late for Gabon
                      > > - Bongo
                      > > or not. International aid has never brought any country long term
                      > > economic
                      > > stability. It is but a band aid on a gaping wound. Any leader as
                      > > stellar as
                      > > you claim Bongo to be would not need to rely on foreign aid to be
                      > > the savior
                      > > of his administration.
                      > >
                      > > "Cause most times the answer to problems is right under you nose. "
                      > > Exactly.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >From: dupont3@...
                      > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                      > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:54:08 -0700
                      > > >
                      > > >That is an opposition web site run by those who oppose President
                      > > Bongo. I
                      > > >would wager that the views expressed there do not represent the
                      > > majority
                      > > >of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web site
                      > > of the
                      > > >Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats!
                      > > >I take it as a sign that the democratic process is working in
                      > > Gabon.
                      > > >
                      > > >I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil rich, is
                      > > the
                      > > >US policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one
                      > > really
                      > > >have anything to do with the other? Why do you have such a tunnel
                      > > vision
                      > > >of politics is the better question?
                      > > >Gabon needs international aid just like Israel needs aid or Egypt
                      > > needs
                      > > >aid or any of the multitude of 3rd world countries that should have
                      > > their
                      > > >debt written off for the sake of economic development and
                      > > stability
                      > > >around the world. It is ridiculous to have these countries who need
                      > > help
                      > > >paying off rich nations who are then spending billions fighting
                      > > wars. The
                      > > >decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone knows
                      > > how to
                      > > >fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some inexperienced
                      > > >rag-tagged opposition leader.
                      > > >We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads need
                      > > to be
                      > > >built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing is
                      > > some
                      > > >opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for political
                      > > gain.
                      > > >They call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or
                      > > schools
                      > > >and hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings.
                      > > >Everything else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the
                      > > quest
                      > > >for power. That is the real shame with this debate. The fact that
                      > > if
                      > > >these people had their way little would change for the better.
                      > > >
                      > > >One thing that made America great is that in times of the greatest
                      > > >crisis, the people put aside their differences and worked together
                      > > for
                      > > >their country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                      > > >Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was
                      > > destined to
                      > > >succeed.
                      > > >Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that we have
                      > > lost a
                      > > >lot of that.We have polarization between Republicans and Democrats
                      > > in the
                      > > >quest for more power and little if anything gets done effectively.
                      > > You
                      > > >see good ideas being lost in meaningless debate. It gets worse
                      > > cause it
                      > > >seems like now the vibe has spread like a virus around the world
                      > > as
                      > > >people in other nations, heavily influenced by the US, take on a
                      > > sort of
                      > > >copycat mentality and emulate the BAD apples in our system with
                      > > good
                      > > >intentions for their own. Is the Gabon opposition now just a sign
                      > > of the
                      > > >times?
                      > > >
                      > > >The people in Gabon need to get together with their President and
                      > > figure
                      > > >out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out of
                      > > their
                      > > >country at this time probably do not and should not be there in
                      > > the
                      > > >first place. Imagine if that happened in hard times in the US.
                      > > >Gabonese also need to take stock of what they have and as the
                      > > saying
                      > > >goes, "be careful what you wish for." Cause most times the answer
                      > > to
                      > > >problems is right under you nose. In the case of Gabon, I believe
                      > > that
                      > > >the answer lies in the support of President Bongo and a faith in
                      > > his most
                      > > >capable leadership. Once united with the President, the important
                      > > steps
                      > > >needed to take become clear and pressure on international aid
                      > > >organizations has the best chance for success.
                      > > >
                      > > >Ciao,
                      > > >dupont
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:52:00 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                      > > >writes:
                      > > > > IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org - A
                      > > web
                      > > > > site
                      > > > > operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods of
                      > > > > instability
                      > > > > like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which Bongo
                      > > suppressed
                      > > > > with
                      > > > > help of the French military.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to why
                      > > after
                      > > > > nearly 40
                      > > > > years of "stability", with an obviously rich and "intelligent"
                      > > > > leader who
                      > > > > has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present state of
                      > > > > degradation?
                      > > > > Why does the government still request are Peace Corps volunteers
                      > > to
                      > > > > provide
                      > > > > economic, agricultural and education development instead of
                      > > relying
                      > > > > on its
                      > > > > own people and why are the navigable roads almost non-existent
                      > > > > outside of
                      > > > > the capital?
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >From: dupont3@...
                      > > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                      > > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a rich
                      > > man,
                      > > > > but
                      > > > > >what does that have to do with aid to develop the
                      > > infrastructure of
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth and
                      > > > > actions of
                      > > > > >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that we
                      > > give
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth of
                      > > aid
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt
                      > > > > receives over
                      > > > > >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel. Egypt
                      > > has
                      > > > > a
                      > > > > >President who has been in office for years and is considered in
                      > > the
                      > > > > same
                      > > > > >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how controversial
                      > > the
                      > > > > Israeli
                      > > > > >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
                      > > > > >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when you
                      > > > > consider the
                      > > > > >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
                      > > > > >Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue to
                      > > bark up
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how
                      > > > > development
                      > > > > >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues
                      > > confronting
                      > > > > Gabonese"
                      > > > > >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President Bongo
                      > > is
                      > > > > a
                      > > > > >master of.
                      > > > > >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on its
                      > > face.
                      > > > > Do we
                      > > > > >have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling
                      > > over
                      > > > > money.
                      > > > > >All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs
                      > > would be
                      > > > > met
                      > > > > >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
                      > > > > >While you take for granted the leadership of a country with 40
                      > > > > years of
                      > > > > >stability, other countries are being thrown into living hells
                      > > > > because of
                      > > > > >violent conflict.
                      > > > > >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia, Zimbabwe,
                      > > > > Angola,
                      > > > > >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want to
                      > > > > instigate
                      > > > > >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your
                      > > mind!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >Ciao,
                      > > > > >dupont
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...>
                      > > > > writes:
                      > > > > > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF and
                      > > World
                      > > > > Bank
                      > > > > > > to
                      > > > > > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the
                      > > infrastructure
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > the country."
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo
                      > > shill
                      > > > > who
                      > > > > > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all
                      > > Gabonese
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his and
                      > > > > President
                      > > > > > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has
                      > > expatriated
                      > > > > > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his
                      > > personal
                      > > > > bank
                      > > > > > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc. at
                      > > the
                      > > > > > > expense of all Gabonese.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a
                      > > very
                      > > > > > > positive
                      > > > > > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the
                      > > right
                      > > > > > > choices....
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > _________________________________________________________________
                      > > > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
                      > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > > _________________________________________________________________
                      > > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
                      > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
                      MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                    • dupont3@juno.com
                      Your response is poppycock! Political economist are not running the US. Wake up, please! Those pundits on TV that you tune into everyday have been wrong much
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 30, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Your response is poppycock! Political economist are not running the US.
                        Wake up, please! Those pundits on TV that you tune into everyday have
                        been wrong much more than right. Most of them are rubber stamping
                        terrible ideas for the US economy but they do a good job of convincing
                        people like you how to spend your money.
                        I am not insulting you personally just having some fun with your broad
                        generalizations.
                        So now I am a hypocrite and I have no substance. I wish that you would
                        stop trying to reverse my arguments.
                        You have not responded to my points in any convincing way. I already
                        pointed to solutions that would help Gabon like a Marshall Plan for
                        Africa or IMF/World Bank infrastructure investment, eliminating 3rd world
                        debt, one voice proposals for aid,etc. Now you say that I have no
                        solutions, while your idea is to support a party called "Bongo Must Go".
                        Come on! it is obvious that you are ready to put Gabon under the hands of
                        political lightweights.
                        Omar Bongo came up thru the system and had a good deal of internal
                        political experience before becoming President. He is a great leader.
                        But you would not know that cause you get most of your political
                        knowledge from sitting in front of the TV listening to American pundits
                        spew their nonsense and getting brainwashed in the process.
                        I know the BS that passes for info on the news here in the US. I know how
                        Americans are hypocrites when it comes to truly democratic values. I
                        know how the US government is benevolent only to the point of their own
                        interest. and I refer you to the US in reference to Gabon because I hate
                        to see a great and capable leader with good intentions like President
                        Bongo labeled a crook while US Presidents, government officials and
                        business execs are allowed to get away with money laundering and
                        corruption on a scale ultimately affecting most everyone in the 3rd
                        world. This is a culture where it seems fine for a man to make billions
                        of dollars gambling in the stock market or for a world leader to create
                        war for the sake of oil booty, but not ok for an African President who
                        has lead a country thru 40 Years of stability to even come close to that
                        level of wealth. The President of the NYSE just got a retirement package
                        worth $136 million dollars at a time when the economy is in shambles!
                        Has an American I can say that a man of Bongo's capability and stature
                        deserves what he has and more. Any leader delivering stability amongst
                        the challenges that Africans face everyday gets my respect.
                        I think that it is about time you haters out there gave more respect to
                        the Gabonese President and washed your brain of this American bullsh*t.

                        Ciao,
                        dupont



                        On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:37:19 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                        writes:
                        >
                        > As usual you have no response other than to insult others. What a
                        > pity that
                        > you are uninformed enough to think that political economists are not
                        > already
                        > running your country and influencing geopolitics. You have a big ego
                        > and
                        > little else. As before you offer no real solutions other than
                        > Bongospeak.
                        > What a pity someone who has so much to say with so little substance.
                        > I bet
                        > you also have a sofa in your house, car to drive and television to
                        > watch.
                        > What a hypocrite. Unlike you, I help to support a large extended
                        > family in
                        > Gabon and have a direct tie other than tourism. Grow up.
                        >
                        > >From: dupont3@...
                        > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                        > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                        > >Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:46:34 -0700
                        > >
                        > >Since when did we throw our hat in and all follow behind political
                        > >economist?
                        > >While I respect political economist views, I sure as hell do not
                        > want
                        > >them running my country.
                        > >Ya know, you have a very simpleton view of everything. I mean
                        > your
                        > >intentions are good but your response to some of my points is like
                        > >programmed media soundbites. You talk about political prisoners and
                        > how
                        > >Bongo, "had plenty of time to fix things" as if running a country
                        > is all
                        > >about whats politically correct and egalitarian.
                        > >I do not agree with your take on things. You want to look at
                        > Gabon's
                        > >problems without considering the influences of geopolitic.
                        > >You ignore whats happening right now in other African states like
                        > the
                        > >Ivory Coast. You are brainwashed by the american media. All from
                        > the
                        > >comfort of your US sofa!
                        > >
                        > >Ciao,
                        > >dupont
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:58:24 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                        > >writes:
                        > > > As much as you chastize others for being against Bongo, you seem
                        > as
                        > > > blindly
                        > > > for Bongo. I have yet to see any evidence to support your views
                        > on
                        > > > his
                        > > > leadership. It is not Bongo that keeps the stability in Gabon,
                        > but
                        > > > the
                        > > > threat of intervention from the French military to protect oil
                        > > > interests.
                        > > > You never addressed the student uprisings I mentioned the last
                        > > > time.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > "I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil
                        > rich, is
                        > > > the US
                        > > > policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one
                        > > > really have
                        > > > anything to do with the other?"
                        > > >
                        > > > You try to skillfully say a lot without much substance. Any
                        > > > political
                        > > > economist knows that economics and politics go hand in hand.
                        > Try
                        > > > looking up
                        > > > Ali Mazrui from Tanzania. The US foreign policy directly ties
                        > in
                        > > > with US
                        > > > economic interests both at home and abroad. Of course one has to
                        > do
                        > > > with
                        > > > another. Do you really think that one family like the Bush
                        > family
                        > > > would
                        > > > participate in politics if there was not an economic incentive
                        > > > involved?
                        > > > They may be oil rich but the US does not have enough oil
                        > reserves to
                        > > >
                        > > > fullfill the demands of US CONSUMPTION. That is a plain reason
                        > why
                        > > > Bush is
                        > > > mixing US domestic interests with US foreign policy. Wh do you
                        > keep
                        > > >
                        > > > mentioning US foreign policy when we are debating Gabonese
                        > domestic
                        > > > policy?
                        > > >
                        > > > "I would wager that the views expressed there do not represent
                        > the
                        > > > majority
                        > > > of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web
                        > site
                        > > > of the
                        > > > Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats! I
                        > take
                        > > > it as a
                        > > > sign that the democratic process is working in Gabon."
                        > > >
                        > > > The very fact that Bongo has to take political prisoners to try
                        > and
                        > > > stop
                        > > > political dissent does not point to democracy. These people do
                        > not
                        > > > feel safe
                        > > > enough to voice their opinions in Gabon. You would wager that
                        > you
                        > > > know a lot
                        > > > about the ideas of Gabon but when faced with real opposition to
                        > the
                        > > > current
                        > > > political climate in Gabon you wager that it is a lie. The
                        > reason
                        > > > why the
                        > > > republican party is a valuable resource in a democratic
                        > presidential
                        > > > climate
                        > > > is that it helps to insure checks and balances on either side.
                        > > >
                        > > > "The decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if
                        > anyone
                        > > > knows how
                        > > > to fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some
                        > inexperienced
                        > > > rag-tagged opposition leader."
                        > > >
                        > > > The decline in oil revenues is nothing new. Bongo has had plenty
                        > of
                        > > > time to
                        > > > try and "fix" the situation. Any political economist knows that
                        > > > diversification of revenue generating income resources is the
                        > key to
                        > > > long
                        > > > tern generation of wealth, not continuing to rely on cash crop
                        > > > resources
                        > > > like timber and oil. Do you actually have any knowledge of the
                        > > > opposition
                        > > > candidates and their qualifications? What were Bongo's
                        > > > qualifications when
                        > > > he took over the presidency?
                        > > >
                        > > > "We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads
                        > need
                        > > > to be
                        > > > built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing
                        > is
                        > > > some
                        > > > opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for
                        > political
                        > > > gain.They
                        > > > call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or
                        > schools
                        > > > and
                        > > > hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings.
                        > > > Everything
                        > > > else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the quest
                        > for
                        > > > power. That
                        > > > is the real shame with this debate. The fact that if these
                        > people
                        > > > had their
                        > > > way little would change for the better."
                        > > >
                        > > > Again, politics and economics go hand in hand. You mention "new
                        > > > politicians
                        > > > controlling the purse strings" - so now you are admitting that
                        > is
                        > > > what Bongo
                        > > > is doing? You still have not addressed the issues -if Bongo is
                        > such
                        > > > a
                        > > > capable leader with the supreme knowledge of how to fix the
                        > problems
                        > > > of
                        > > > Gabon - why is he not trying to fix them? It is easy to dismiss
                        > > > dissent as
                        > > > just another one trying to grab power. Why not address the
                        > issues
                        > > > raised on
                        > > > the web site instead of dismissing any call against Bongo as
                        > pure
                        > > > greed? You
                        > > > did not address the development issues I asked about the last
                        > time -
                        > > > i.e.
                        > > > why are NGOs and Peace Corps the primary educational,
                        > agricultural,
                        > > > and
                        > > > developmental support in Gabon? Where are all the jobs for
                        > the
                        > > > educated
                        > > > Gabonese who are passing the BAC?
                        > > >
                        > > > "One thing that made America great is that in times of the
                        > greatest
                        > > > crisis,
                        > > > the people put aside their differences and worked together for
                        > > > their
                        > > > country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                        > > > Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was
                        > > > destined to
                        > > > succeed. Part of the problem now in US political discourse is
                        > that
                        > > > we have
                        > > > lost a lot of that."
                        > > >
                        > > > Yet again you are trying to separate politics and economics.
                        > The
                        > > > Civil War
                        > > > was just that - a war over the economic of slavery. Where is
                        > the
                        > > > unity of a
                        > > > civil war. Ask anyone who is a southerner and they will tell you
                        > > > that the
                        > > > Civil War is STILL one of the most divisive issues around. The
                        > South
                        > > > was
                        > > > forced as loser of the war to accept the policies of the North -
                        > it
                        > > > was not
                        > > > because of love of country. The Great Depression was an
                        > economic
                        > > > situation
                        > > > that forced political action. After 911, there was and still is
                        > a
                        > > > great deal
                        > > > of unity around the issue of controlling terrorism. But the
                        > thing
                        > > > that makes
                        > > > the US an interesting place is that we have the FREEDOM to
                        > dissent
                        > > > without
                        > > > fear of detention. For those detained, at least historically,
                        > there
                        > > > is the
                        > > > precedent of due process.
                        > > >
                        > > > "The people in Gabon need to get together with their President
                        > and
                        > > > figure
                        > > > out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out
                        > of
                        > > > their
                        > > > country at this time probably do not and should not be there in
                        > the
                        > > > first
                        > > > place."
                        > > >
                        > > > How many Americans live abroad for any number of reasons? Does
                        > this
                        > > > mean
                        > > > they have no right to comment on their country. Since when does
                        > > > location
                        > > > determine nationality? Does that mean that the Dali Lama has no
                        > > > right to be
                        > > > the leader of Nepal because he lives in India? Does that mean
                        > that
                        > > > economic
                        > > > and political refugees have no right to want to see a better
                        > country
                        > > > to
                        > > > return to?
                        > > >
                        > > > I, again, ask Mr. Dupont to give some substantial reasoning
                        > behind
                        > > > the idea
                        > > > that Bongo is the way to go rather than jumping back and forth
                        > > > between
                        > > > criticizing the US foreign policy and Bush. Let's take the
                        > United
                        > > > States
                        > > > policies out of it a minute and look at GABON. France is one of
                        > > > Gabon's
                        > > > biggest trading partners. Where is the criticism for France or
                        > > > China? Gabon
                        > > > has billions of dollars of foreign debt which it can never repay
                        > but
                        > > > you
                        > > > propose giving more and more? That is hardly the answer. One
                        > thing I
                        > > > do
                        > > > agree with you on is forgiving 3rd world nations their debts.
                        > But
                        > > > this would
                        > > > make little difference if these same nations are still stuck in
                        > the
                        > > > economic
                        > > > and political patterns that got them into the debt in the first
                        > > > place. How
                        > > > would you propose to change this in Gabon with or without
                        > Bongo?
                        > > > That is the
                        > > > real issue - after all Bongo will die sooner or later. What
                        > about
                        > > > the
                        > > > looming AIDS crisis in Gabon and its economic impacts? Or may
                        > be
                        > > > Bongo has a
                        > > > handle on that already too?
                        > > >
                        > > > "Once united with the President, the important steps needed to
                        > take
                        > > > become
                        > > > clear and pressure on international aid organizations has the
                        > best
                        > > > chance
                        > > > for success."
                        > > >
                        > > > You have already stated that you believe Bongo to be a
                        > popularly
                        > > > elected
                        > > > president of Gabon. If this is really the case, why are you
                        > waiting
                        > > > for
                        > > > popular supportto make a better Gabon? If the opposition like
                        > the
                        > > > BDPgabon
                        > > > is not a real opposition then why should Bongo worry about them
                        > at
                        > > > all? We
                        > > > all know that current global economic trends will change only
                        > very
                        > > > slowly
                        > > > and if we wait for that to happen then it will be too late for
                        > Gabon
                        > > > - Bongo
                        > > > or not. International aid has never brought any country long
                        > term
                        > > > economic
                        > > > stability. It is but a band aid on a gaping wound. Any leader
                        > as
                        > > > stellar as
                        > > > you claim Bongo to be would not need to rely on foreign aid to
                        > be
                        > > > the savior
                        > > > of his administration.
                        > > >
                        > > > "Cause most times the answer to problems is right under you
                        > nose. "
                        > > > Exactly.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >From: dupont3@...
                        > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                        > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:54:08 -0700
                        > > > >
                        > > > >That is an opposition web site run by those who oppose
                        > President
                        > > > Bongo. I
                        > > > >would wager that the views expressed there do not represent
                        > the
                        > > > majority
                        > > > >of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web
                        > site
                        > > > of the
                        > > > >Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats!
                        > > > >I take it as a sign that the democratic process is working in
                        > > > Gabon.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil
                        > rich, is
                        > > > the
                        > > > >US policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does
                        > one
                        > > > really
                        > > > >have anything to do with the other? Why do you have such a
                        > tunnel
                        > > > vision
                        > > > >of politics is the better question?
                        > > > >Gabon needs international aid just like Israel needs aid or
                        > Egypt
                        > > > needs
                        > > > >aid or any of the multitude of 3rd world countries that should
                        > have
                        > > > their
                        > > > >debt written off for the sake of economic development and
                        > > > stability
                        > > > >around the world. It is ridiculous to have these countries who
                        > need
                        > > > help
                        > > > >paying off rich nations who are then spending billions
                        > fighting
                        > > > wars. The
                        > > > >decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone
                        > knows
                        > > > how to
                        > > > >fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some
                        > inexperienced
                        > > > >rag-tagged opposition leader.
                        > > > >We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads
                        > need
                        > > > to be
                        > > > >built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing
                        > is
                        > > > some
                        > > > >opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for
                        > political
                        > > > gain.
                        > > > >They call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads
                        > or
                        > > > schools
                        > > > >and hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse
                        > strings.
                        > > > >Everything else takes a back seat to political aspiration and
                        > the
                        > > > quest
                        > > > >for power. That is the real shame with this debate. The fact
                        > that
                        > > > if
                        > > > >these people had their way little would change for the better.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >One thing that made America great is that in times of the
                        > greatest
                        > > > >crisis, the people put aside their differences and worked
                        > together
                        > > > for
                        > > > >their country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the
                        > Great
                        > > > >Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was
                        > > > destined to
                        > > > >succeed.
                        > > > >Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that we
                        > have
                        > > > lost a
                        > > > >lot of that.We have polarization between Republicans and
                        > Democrats
                        > > > in the
                        > > > >quest for more power and little if anything gets done
                        > effectively.
                        > > > You
                        > > > >see good ideas being lost in meaningless debate. It gets
                        > worse
                        > > > cause it
                        > > > >seems like now the vibe has spread like a virus around the
                        > world
                        > > > as
                        > > > >people in other nations, heavily influenced by the US, take on
                        > a
                        > > > sort of
                        > > > >copycat mentality and emulate the BAD apples in our system
                        > with
                        > > > good
                        > > > >intentions for their own. Is the Gabon opposition now just a
                        > sign
                        > > > of the
                        > > > >times?
                        > > > >
                        > > > >The people in Gabon need to get together with their President
                        > and
                        > > > figure
                        > > > >out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving
                        > out of
                        > > > their
                        > > > >country at this time probably do not and should not be there
                        > in
                        > > > the
                        > > > >first place. Imagine if that happened in hard times in the US.
                        > > > >Gabonese also need to take stock of what they have and as the
                        > > > saying
                        > > > >goes, "be careful what you wish for." Cause most times the
                        > answer
                        > > > to
                        > > > >problems is right under you nose. In the case of Gabon, I
                        > believe
                        > > > that
                        > > > >the answer lies in the support of President Bongo and a faith
                        > in
                        > > > his most
                        > > > >capable leadership. Once united with the President, the
                        > important
                        > > > steps
                        > > > >needed to take become clear and pressure on international aid
                        > > > >organizations has the best chance for success.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Ciao,
                        > > > >dupont
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:52:00 +0000 "C Yombi"
                        > <c_yombi@...>
                        > > > >writes:
                        > > > > > IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org -
                        > A
                        > > > web
                        > > > > > site
                        > > > > > operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods
                        > of
                        > > > > > instability
                        > > > > > like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which Bongo
                        > > > suppressed
                        > > > > > with
                        > > > > > help of the French military.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to why
                        > > > after
                        > > > > > nearly 40
                        > > > > > years of "stability", with an obviously rich and
                        > "intelligent"
                        > > > > > leader who
                        > > > > > has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present state
                        > of
                        > > > > > degradation?
                        > > > > > Why does the government still request are Peace Corps
                        > volunteers
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > provide
                        > > > > > economic, agricultural and education development instead of
                        > > > relying
                        > > > > > on its
                        > > > > > own people and why are the navigable roads almost
                        > non-existent
                        > > > > > outside of
                        > > > > > the capital?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >From: dupont3@...
                        > > > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                        > > > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a
                        > rich
                        > > > man,
                        > > > > > but
                        > > > > > >what does that have to do with aid to develop the
                        > > > infrastructure of
                        > > > > > the
                        > > > > > >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth
                        > and
                        > > > > > actions of
                        > > > > > >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that
                        > we
                        > > > give
                        > > > > > the
                        > > > > > >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth
                        > of
                        > > > aid
                        > > > > > and
                        > > > > > >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt
                        > > > > > receives over
                        > > > > > >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel.
                        > Egypt
                        > > > has
                        > > > > > a
                        > > > > > >President who has been in office for years and is
                        > considered in
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > same
                        > > > > > >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how
                        > controversial
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > Israeli
                        > > > > > >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
                        > > > > > >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when
                        > you
                        > > > > > consider the
                        > > > > > >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
                        > > > > > >Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue
                        > to
                        > > > bark up
                        > > > > > the
                        > > > > > >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how
                        > > > > > development
                        > > > > > >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues
                        > > > confronting
                        > > > > > Gabonese"
                        > > > > > >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President
                        > Bongo
                        > > > is
                        > > > > > a
                        > > > > > >master of.
                        > > > > > >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on
                        > its
                        > > > face.
                        > > > > > Do we
                        > > > > > >have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling
                        > > > over
                        > > > > > money.
                        > > > > > >All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs
                        > > > would be
                        > > > > > met
                        > > > > > >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
                        > > > > > >While you take for granted the leadership of a country with
                        > 40
                        > > > > > years of
                        > > > > > >stability, other countries are being thrown into living
                        > hells
                        > > > > > because of
                        > > > > > >violent conflict.
                        > > > > > >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia,
                        > Zimbabwe,
                        > > > > > Angola,
                        > > > > > >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want
                        > to
                        > > > > > instigate
                        > > > > > >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your
                        > > > mind!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >Ciao,
                        > > > > > >dupont
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne"
                        > <bobutne@...>
                        > > > > > writes:
                        > > > > > > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF
                        > and
                        > > > World
                        > > > > > Bank
                        > > > > > > > to
                        > > > > > > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the
                        > > > infrastructure
                        > > > > > of
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > the country."
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo
                        > > > shill
                        > > > > > who
                        > > > > > > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all
                        > > > Gabonese
                        > > > > > and
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his
                        > and
                        > > > > > President
                        > > > > > > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has
                        > > > expatriated
                        > > > > > > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his
                        > > > personal
                        > > > > > bank
                        > > > > > > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc.
                        > at
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > > > expense of all Gabonese.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a
                        > > > very
                        > > > > > > > positive
                        > > > > > > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the
                        > > > right
                        > > > > > > > choices....
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > > > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
                        > > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
                        > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > > >
                        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
                        > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • C Yombi
                        Whatever. I don t even own a tv. Try your non-sense on somebody else. Yes you are a hypocrite - you accuse everybody else of things you do everyday. Ego is the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 30, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Whatever. I don't even own a tv.

                          Try your non-sense on somebody else. Yes you are a hypocrite - you accuse
                          everybody else of things you do everyday. Ego is the first sign of a
                          downfall - and I am not talking about Bongo.


                          >From: dupont3@...
                          >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                          >Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:25:53 -0700
                          >
                          >Your response is poppycock! Political economist are not running the US.
                          >Wake up, please! Those pundits on TV that you tune into everyday have
                          >been wrong much more than right. Most of them are rubber stamping
                          >terrible ideas for the US economy but they do a good job of convincing
                          >people like you how to spend your money.
                          >I am not insulting you personally just having some fun with your broad
                          >generalizations.
                          >So now I am a hypocrite and I have no substance. I wish that you would
                          >stop trying to reverse my arguments.
                          >You have not responded to my points in any convincing way. I already
                          >pointed to solutions that would help Gabon like a Marshall Plan for
                          >Africa or IMF/World Bank infrastructure investment, eliminating 3rd world
                          >debt, one voice proposals for aid,etc. Now you say that I have no
                          >solutions, while your idea is to support a party called "Bongo Must Go".
                          >Come on! it is obvious that you are ready to put Gabon under the hands of
                          >political lightweights.
                          >Omar Bongo came up thru the system and had a good deal of internal
                          >political experience before becoming President. He is a great leader.
                          >But you would not know that cause you get most of your political
                          >knowledge from sitting in front of the TV listening to American pundits
                          >spew their nonsense and getting brainwashed in the process.
                          >I know the BS that passes for info on the news here in the US. I know how
                          > Americans are hypocrites when it comes to truly democratic values. I
                          >know how the US government is benevolent only to the point of their own
                          >interest. and I refer you to the US in reference to Gabon because I hate
                          >to see a great and capable leader with good intentions like President
                          >Bongo labeled a crook while US Presidents, government officials and
                          >business execs are allowed to get away with money laundering and
                          >corruption on a scale ultimately affecting most everyone in the 3rd
                          >world. This is a culture where it seems fine for a man to make billions
                          >of dollars gambling in the stock market or for a world leader to create
                          >war for the sake of oil booty, but not ok for an African President who
                          >has lead a country thru 40 Years of stability to even come close to that
                          >level of wealth. The President of the NYSE just got a retirement package
                          >worth $136 million dollars at a time when the economy is in shambles!
                          >Has an American I can say that a man of Bongo's capability and stature
                          >deserves what he has and more. Any leader delivering stability amongst
                          >the challenges that Africans face everyday gets my respect.
                          >I think that it is about time you haters out there gave more respect to
                          >the Gabonese President and washed your brain of this American bullsh*t.
                          >
                          >Ciao,
                          >dupont
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:37:19 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                          >writes:
                          > >
                          > > As usual you have no response other than to insult others. What a
                          > > pity that
                          > > you are uninformed enough to think that political economists are not
                          > > already
                          > > running your country and influencing geopolitics. You have a big ego
                          > > and
                          > > little else. As before you offer no real solutions other than
                          > > Bongospeak.
                          > > What a pity someone who has so much to say with so little substance.
                          > > I bet
                          > > you also have a sofa in your house, car to drive and television to
                          > > watch.
                          > > What a hypocrite. Unlike you, I help to support a large extended
                          > > family in
                          > > Gabon and have a direct tie other than tourism. Grow up.
                          > >
                          > > >From: dupont3@...
                          > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                          > > >Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:46:34 -0700
                          > > >
                          > > >Since when did we throw our hat in and all follow behind political
                          > > >economist?
                          > > >While I respect political economist views, I sure as hell do not
                          > > want
                          > > >them running my country.
                          > > >Ya know, you have a very simpleton view of everything. I mean
                          > > your
                          > > >intentions are good but your response to some of my points is like
                          > > >programmed media soundbites. You talk about political prisoners and
                          > > how
                          > > >Bongo, "had plenty of time to fix things" as if running a country
                          > > is all
                          > > >about whats politically correct and egalitarian.
                          > > >I do not agree with your take on things. You want to look at
                          > > Gabon's
                          > > >problems without considering the influences of geopolitic.
                          > > >You ignore whats happening right now in other African states like
                          > > the
                          > > >Ivory Coast. You are brainwashed by the american media. All from
                          > > the
                          > > >comfort of your US sofa!
                          > > >
                          > > >Ciao,
                          > > >dupont
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:58:24 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                          > > >writes:
                          > > > > As much as you chastize others for being against Bongo, you seem
                          > > as
                          > > > > blindly
                          > > > > for Bongo. I have yet to see any evidence to support your views
                          > > on
                          > > > > his
                          > > > > leadership. It is not Bongo that keeps the stability in Gabon,
                          > > but
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > threat of intervention from the French military to protect oil
                          > > > > interests.
                          > > > > You never addressed the student uprisings I mentioned the last
                          > > > > time.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil
                          > > rich, is
                          > > > > the US
                          > > > > policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does one
                          > > > > really have
                          > > > > anything to do with the other?"
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You try to skillfully say a lot without much substance. Any
                          > > > > political
                          > > > > economist knows that economics and politics go hand in hand.
                          > > Try
                          > > > > looking up
                          > > > > Ali Mazrui from Tanzania. The US foreign policy directly ties
                          > > in
                          > > > > with US
                          > > > > economic interests both at home and abroad. Of course one has to
                          > > do
                          > > > > with
                          > > > > another. Do you really think that one family like the Bush
                          > > family
                          > > > > would
                          > > > > participate in politics if there was not an economic incentive
                          > > > > involved?
                          > > > > They may be oil rich but the US does not have enough oil
                          > > reserves to
                          > > > >
                          > > > > fullfill the demands of US CONSUMPTION. That is a plain reason
                          > > why
                          > > > > Bush is
                          > > > > mixing US domestic interests with US foreign policy. Wh do you
                          > > keep
                          > > > >
                          > > > > mentioning US foreign policy when we are debating Gabonese
                          > > domestic
                          > > > > policy?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "I would wager that the views expressed there do not represent
                          > > the
                          > > > > majority
                          > > > > of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web
                          > > site
                          > > > > of the
                          > > > > Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats! I
                          > > take
                          > > > > it as a
                          > > > > sign that the democratic process is working in Gabon."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The very fact that Bongo has to take political prisoners to try
                          > > and
                          > > > > stop
                          > > > > political dissent does not point to democracy. These people do
                          > > not
                          > > > > feel safe
                          > > > > enough to voice their opinions in Gabon. You would wager that
                          > > you
                          > > > > know a lot
                          > > > > about the ideas of Gabon but when faced with real opposition to
                          > > the
                          > > > > current
                          > > > > political climate in Gabon you wager that it is a lie. The
                          > > reason
                          > > > > why the
                          > > > > republican party is a valuable resource in a democratic
                          > > presidential
                          > > > > climate
                          > > > > is that it helps to insure checks and balances on either side.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "The decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if
                          > > anyone
                          > > > > knows how
                          > > > > to fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some
                          > > inexperienced
                          > > > > rag-tagged opposition leader."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The decline in oil revenues is nothing new. Bongo has had plenty
                          > > of
                          > > > > time to
                          > > > > try and "fix" the situation. Any political economist knows that
                          > > > > diversification of revenue generating income resources is the
                          > > key to
                          > > > > long
                          > > > > tern generation of wealth, not continuing to rely on cash crop
                          > > > > resources
                          > > > > like timber and oil. Do you actually have any knowledge of the
                          > > > > opposition
                          > > > > candidates and their qualifications? What were Bongo's
                          > > > > qualifications when
                          > > > > he took over the presidency?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads
                          > > need
                          > > > > to be
                          > > > > built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing
                          > > is
                          > > > > some
                          > > > > opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for
                          > > political
                          > > > > gain.They
                          > > > > call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or
                          > > schools
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse strings.
                          > > > > Everything
                          > > > > else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the quest
                          > > for
                          > > > > power. That
                          > > > > is the real shame with this debate. The fact that if these
                          > > people
                          > > > > had their
                          > > > > way little would change for the better."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Again, politics and economics go hand in hand. You mention "new
                          > > > > politicians
                          > > > > controlling the purse strings" - so now you are admitting that
                          > > is
                          > > > > what Bongo
                          > > > > is doing? You still have not addressed the issues -if Bongo is
                          > > such
                          > > > > a
                          > > > > capable leader with the supreme knowledge of how to fix the
                          > > problems
                          > > > > of
                          > > > > Gabon - why is he not trying to fix them? It is easy to dismiss
                          > > > > dissent as
                          > > > > just another one trying to grab power. Why not address the
                          > > issues
                          > > > > raised on
                          > > > > the web site instead of dismissing any call against Bongo as
                          > > pure
                          > > > > greed? You
                          > > > > did not address the development issues I asked about the last
                          > > time -
                          > > > > i.e.
                          > > > > why are NGOs and Peace Corps the primary educational,
                          > > agricultural,
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > developmental support in Gabon? Where are all the jobs for
                          > > the
                          > > > > educated
                          > > > > Gabonese who are passing the BAC?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "One thing that made America great is that in times of the
                          > > greatest
                          > > > > crisis,
                          > > > > the people put aside their differences and worked together for
                          > > > > their
                          > > > > country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                          > > > > Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was
                          > > > > destined to
                          > > > > succeed. Part of the problem now in US political discourse is
                          > > that
                          > > > > we have
                          > > > > lost a lot of that."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yet again you are trying to separate politics and economics.
                          > > The
                          > > > > Civil War
                          > > > > was just that - a war over the economic of slavery. Where is
                          > > the
                          > > > > unity of a
                          > > > > civil war. Ask anyone who is a southerner and they will tell you
                          > > > > that the
                          > > > > Civil War is STILL one of the most divisive issues around. The
                          > > South
                          > > > > was
                          > > > > forced as loser of the war to accept the policies of the North -
                          > > it
                          > > > > was not
                          > > > > because of love of country. The Great Depression was an
                          > > economic
                          > > > > situation
                          > > > > that forced political action. After 911, there was and still is
                          > > a
                          > > > > great deal
                          > > > > of unity around the issue of controlling terrorism. But the
                          > > thing
                          > > > > that makes
                          > > > > the US an interesting place is that we have the FREEDOM to
                          > > dissent
                          > > > > without
                          > > > > fear of detention. For those detained, at least historically,
                          > > there
                          > > > > is the
                          > > > > precedent of due process.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "The people in Gabon need to get together with their President
                          > > and
                          > > > > figure
                          > > > > out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving out
                          > > of
                          > > > > their
                          > > > > country at this time probably do not and should not be there in
                          > > the
                          > > > > first
                          > > > > place."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > How many Americans live abroad for any number of reasons? Does
                          > > this
                          > > > > mean
                          > > > > they have no right to comment on their country. Since when does
                          > > > > location
                          > > > > determine nationality? Does that mean that the Dali Lama has no
                          > > > > right to be
                          > > > > the leader of Nepal because he lives in India? Does that mean
                          > > that
                          > > > > economic
                          > > > > and political refugees have no right to want to see a better
                          > > country
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > return to?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I, again, ask Mr. Dupont to give some substantial reasoning
                          > > behind
                          > > > > the idea
                          > > > > that Bongo is the way to go rather than jumping back and forth
                          > > > > between
                          > > > > criticizing the US foreign policy and Bush. Let's take the
                          > > United
                          > > > > States
                          > > > > policies out of it a minute and look at GABON. France is one of
                          > > > > Gabon's
                          > > > > biggest trading partners. Where is the criticism for France or
                          > > > > China? Gabon
                          > > > > has billions of dollars of foreign debt which it can never repay
                          > > but
                          > > > > you
                          > > > > propose giving more and more? That is hardly the answer. One
                          > > thing I
                          > > > > do
                          > > > > agree with you on is forgiving 3rd world nations their debts.
                          > > But
                          > > > > this would
                          > > > > make little difference if these same nations are still stuck in
                          > > the
                          > > > > economic
                          > > > > and political patterns that got them into the debt in the first
                          > > > > place. How
                          > > > > would you propose to change this in Gabon with or without
                          > > Bongo?
                          > > > > That is the
                          > > > > real issue - after all Bongo will die sooner or later. What
                          > > about
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > looming AIDS crisis in Gabon and its economic impacts? Or may
                          > > be
                          > > > > Bongo has a
                          > > > > handle on that already too?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "Once united with the President, the important steps needed to
                          > > take
                          > > > > become
                          > > > > clear and pressure on international aid organizations has the
                          > > best
                          > > > > chance
                          > > > > for success."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You have already stated that you believe Bongo to be a
                          > > popularly
                          > > > > elected
                          > > > > president of Gabon. If this is really the case, why are you
                          > > waiting
                          > > > > for
                          > > > > popular supportto make a better Gabon? If the opposition like
                          > > the
                          > > > > BDPgabon
                          > > > > is not a real opposition then why should Bongo worry about them
                          > > at
                          > > > > all? We
                          > > > > all know that current global economic trends will change only
                          > > very
                          > > > > slowly
                          > > > > and if we wait for that to happen then it will be too late for
                          > > Gabon
                          > > > > - Bongo
                          > > > > or not. International aid has never brought any country long
                          > > term
                          > > > > economic
                          > > > > stability. It is but a band aid on a gaping wound. Any leader
                          > > as
                          > > > > stellar as
                          > > > > you claim Bongo to be would not need to rely on foreign aid to
                          > > be
                          > > > > the savior
                          > > > > of his administration.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "Cause most times the answer to problems is right under you
                          > > nose. "
                          > > > > Exactly.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >From: dupont3@...
                          > > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                          > > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:54:08 -0700
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >That is an opposition web site run by those who oppose
                          > > President
                          > > > > Bongo. I
                          > > > > >would wager that the views expressed there do not represent
                          > > the
                          > > > > majority
                          > > > > >of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the web
                          > > site
                          > > > > of the
                          > > > > >Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats!
                          > > > > >I take it as a sign that the democratic process is working in
                          > > > > Gabon.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil
                          > > rich, is
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > >US policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does
                          > > one
                          > > > > really
                          > > > > >have anything to do with the other? Why do you have such a
                          > > tunnel
                          > > > > vision
                          > > > > >of politics is the better question?
                          > > > > >Gabon needs international aid just like Israel needs aid or
                          > > Egypt
                          > > > > needs
                          > > > > >aid or any of the multitude of 3rd world countries that should
                          > > have
                          > > > > their
                          > > > > >debt written off for the sake of economic development and
                          > > > > stability
                          > > > > >around the world. It is ridiculous to have these countries who
                          > > need
                          > > > > help
                          > > > > >paying off rich nations who are then spending billions
                          > > fighting
                          > > > > wars. The
                          > > > > >decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if anyone
                          > > knows
                          > > > > how to
                          > > > > >fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some
                          > > inexperienced
                          > > > > >rag-tagged opposition leader.
                          > > > > >We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development. Roads
                          > > need
                          > > > > to be
                          > > > > >built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am seeing
                          > > is
                          > > > > some
                          > > > > >opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for
                          > > political
                          > > > > gain.
                          > > > > >They call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads
                          > > or
                          > > > > schools
                          > > > > >and hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse
                          > > strings.
                          > > > > >Everything else takes a back seat to political aspiration and
                          > > the
                          > > > > quest
                          > > > > >for power. That is the real shame with this debate. The fact
                          > > that
                          > > > > if
                          > > > > >these people had their way little would change for the better.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >One thing that made America great is that in times of the
                          > > greatest
                          > > > > >crisis, the people put aside their differences and worked
                          > > together
                          > > > > for
                          > > > > >their country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the
                          > > Great
                          > > > > >Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that was
                          > > > > destined to
                          > > > > >succeed.
                          > > > > >Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that we
                          > > have
                          > > > > lost a
                          > > > > >lot of that.We have polarization between Republicans and
                          > > Democrats
                          > > > > in the
                          > > > > >quest for more power and little if anything gets done
                          > > effectively.
                          > > > > You
                          > > > > >see good ideas being lost in meaningless debate. It gets
                          > > worse
                          > > > > cause it
                          > > > > >seems like now the vibe has spread like a virus around the
                          > > world
                          > > > > as
                          > > > > >people in other nations, heavily influenced by the US, take on
                          > > a
                          > > > > sort of
                          > > > > >copycat mentality and emulate the BAD apples in our system
                          > > with
                          > > > > good
                          > > > > >intentions for their own. Is the Gabon opposition now just a
                          > > sign
                          > > > > of the
                          > > > > >times?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >The people in Gabon need to get together with their President
                          > > and
                          > > > > figure
                          > > > > >out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving
                          > > out of
                          > > > > their
                          > > > > >country at this time probably do not and should not be there
                          > > in
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > >first place. Imagine if that happened in hard times in the US.
                          > > > > >Gabonese also need to take stock of what they have and as the
                          > > > > saying
                          > > > > >goes, "be careful what you wish for." Cause most times the
                          > > answer
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > >problems is right under you nose. In the case of Gabon, I
                          > > believe
                          > > > > that
                          > > > > >the answer lies in the support of President Bongo and a faith
                          > > in
                          > > > > his most
                          > > > > >capable leadership. Once united with the President, the
                          > > important
                          > > > > steps
                          > > > > >needed to take become clear and pressure on international aid
                          > > > > >organizations has the best chance for success.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >Ciao,
                          > > > > >dupont
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:52:00 +0000 "C Yombi"
                          > > <c_yombi@...>
                          > > > > >writes:
                          > > > > > > IF anyone is interested you can check out www.bdpgabon.org -
                          > > A
                          > > > > web
                          > > > > > > site
                          > > > > > > operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had periods
                          > > of
                          > > > > > > instability
                          > > > > > > like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which Bongo
                          > > > > suppressed
                          > > > > > > with
                          > > > > > > help of the French military.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to why
                          > > > > after
                          > > > > > > nearly 40
                          > > > > > > years of "stability", with an obviously rich and
                          > > "intelligent"
                          > > > > > > leader who
                          > > > > > > has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present state
                          > > of
                          > > > > > > degradation?
                          > > > > > > Why does the government still request are Peace Corps
                          > > volunteers
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > > > provide
                          > > > > > > economic, agricultural and education development instead of
                          > > > > relying
                          > > > > > > on its
                          > > > > > > own people and why are the navigable roads almost
                          > > non-existent
                          > > > > > > outside of
                          > > > > > > the capital?
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >From: dupont3@...
                          > > > > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                          > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is a
                          > > rich
                          > > > > man,
                          > > > > > > but
                          > > > > > > >what does that have to do with aid to develop the
                          > > > > infrastructure of
                          > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the wealth
                          > > and
                          > > > > > > actions of
                          > > > > > > >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid that
                          > > we
                          > > > > give
                          > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars worth
                          > > of
                          > > > > aid
                          > > > > > > and
                          > > > > > > >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt? Egypt
                          > > > > > > receives over
                          > > > > > > >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as Israel.
                          > > Egypt
                          > > > > has
                          > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > >President who has been in office for years and is
                          > > considered in
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > same
                          > > > > > > >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how
                          > > controversial
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > Israeli
                          > > > > > > >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
                          > > > > > > >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing when
                          > > you
                          > > > > > > consider the
                          > > > > > > >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
                          > > > > > > >Still, you will not face the reality of that and continue
                          > > to
                          > > > > bark up
                          > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see how
                          > > > > > > development
                          > > > > > > >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues
                          > > > > confronting
                          > > > > > > Gabonese"
                          > > > > > > >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that President
                          > > Bongo
                          > > > > is
                          > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > >master of.
                          > > > > > > >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat on
                          > > its
                          > > > > face.
                          > > > > > > Do we
                          > > > > > > >have to experience civil war, opposing factions squabbling
                          > > > > over
                          > > > > > > money.
                          > > > > > > >All because of a naive assumption that the country's needs
                          > > > > would be
                          > > > > > > met
                          > > > > > > >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
                          > > > > > > >While you take for granted the leadership of a country with
                          > > 40
                          > > > > > > years of
                          > > > > > > >stability, other countries are being thrown into living
                          > > hells
                          > > > > > > because of
                          > > > > > > >violent conflict.
                          > > > > > > >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia,
                          > > Zimbabwe,
                          > > > > > > Angola,
                          > > > > > > >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to want
                          > > to
                          > > > > > > instigate
                          > > > > > > >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of your
                          > > > > mind!
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >Ciao,
                          > > > > > > >dupont
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne"
                          > > <bobutne@...>
                          > > > > > > writes:
                          > > > > > > > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the IMF
                          > > and
                          > > > > World
                          > > > > > > Bank
                          > > > > > > > > to
                          > > > > > > > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the
                          > > > > infrastructure
                          > > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > the country."
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a Bongo
                          > > > > shill
                          > > > > > > who
                          > > > > > > > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting all
                          > > > > Gabonese
                          > > > > > > and
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit his
                          > > and
                          > > > > > > President
                          > > > > > > > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has
                          > > > > expatriated
                          > > > > > > > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in his
                          > > > > personal
                          > > > > > > bank
                          > > > > > > > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships, etc.
                          > > at
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > > > expense of all Gabonese.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to establish a
                          > > > > very
                          > > > > > > > > positive
                          > > > > > > > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make the
                          > > > > right
                          > > > > > > > > choices....
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > > > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > > > > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
                          > > > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > > > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
                          > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > > > >
                          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
                          > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
                          http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                        • dupont3@juno.com
                          Ok, so you do not own a TV, well I forgot to mention that it is not just TV that has little substance nowadays, it is also newspapers and magazines that do a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 31, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ok, so you do not own a TV, well I forgot to mention that it is not just
                            TV that has little substance nowadays, it is also newspapers and
                            magazines
                            that do a great job of influencing narrow-minded Americans.
                            Yea, I know that the truth may hurt, cause it hurt me when I realized how
                            my government has been breaking down democratic and constitutional values
                            over the years. By supporting evil-minded dictators and destabilizing 3rd
                            world countries with offers of aid that go against their best interests.
                            Such truth will hurt any decent law abiding American who comes across it.
                            Am I an egoist because I want to tell the truth? Am I being hypocritical
                            because I expose the hypocrisy?

                            When I read some interviews with President Bongo it was like a wake up
                            call for me because he touched on issues that I have always been
                            interested in concerning development on the African continent. Like what
                            is going on with International aid to Africa and how little many African
                            countries are benefitting from the rape of their vast natural resources.
                            It is a depressing situation that most Americans care little about.
                            However the Bush administration has really exposed thru their policy and
                            actions the dark side of American politics and makes one really start to
                            consider what many controversial 3rd world leaders have been talking
                            about for a long time.
                            I admit that I was brainwashed into believing a lot of stupid things by
                            the American media reporting on geopolitic.
                            Is anyone else out there concerned about this?


                            On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:08:48 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                            writes:
                            > Whatever. I don't even own a tv.
                            >
                            > Try your non-sense on somebody else. Yes you are a hypocrite - you
                            > accuse
                            > everybody else of things you do everyday. Ego is the first sign of a
                            >
                            > downfall - and I am not talking about Bongo.
                            >
                            >
                            > >From: dupont3@...
                            > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                            > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                            > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                            > >Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:25:53 -0700
                            > >
                            > >Your response is poppycock! Political economist are not running the
                            > US.
                            > >Wake up, please! Those pundits on TV that you tune into everyday
                            > have
                            > >been wrong much more than right. Most of them are rubber stamping
                            > >terrible ideas for the US economy but they do a good job of
                            > convincing
                            > >people like you how to spend your money.
                            > >I am not insulting you personally just having some fun with your
                            > broad
                            > >generalizations.
                            > >So now I am a hypocrite and I have no substance. I wish that you
                            > would
                            > >stop trying to reverse my arguments.
                            > >You have not responded to my points in any convincing way. I
                            > already
                            > >pointed to solutions that would help Gabon like a Marshall Plan
                            > for
                            > >Africa or IMF/World Bank infrastructure investment, eliminating 3rd
                            > world
                            > >debt, one voice proposals for aid,etc. Now you say that I have no
                            > >solutions, while your idea is to support a party called "Bongo Must
                            > Go".
                            > >Come on! it is obvious that you are ready to put Gabon under the
                            > hands of
                            > >political lightweights.
                            > >Omar Bongo came up thru the system and had a good deal of
                            > internal
                            > >political experience before becoming President. He is a great
                            > leader.
                            > >But you would not know that cause you get most of your political
                            > >knowledge from sitting in front of the TV listening to American
                            > pundits
                            > >spew their nonsense and getting brainwashed in the process.
                            > >I know the BS that passes for info on the news here in the US. I
                            > know how
                            > > Americans are hypocrites when it comes to truly democratic
                            > values. I
                            > >know how the US government is benevolent only to the point of their
                            > own
                            > >interest. and I refer you to the US in reference to Gabon because
                            > I hate
                            > >to see a great and capable leader with good intentions like
                            > President
                            > >Bongo labeled a crook while US Presidents, government officials
                            > and
                            > >business execs are allowed to get away with money laundering and
                            > >corruption on a scale ultimately affecting most everyone in the
                            > 3rd
                            > >world. This is a culture where it seems fine for a man to make
                            > billions
                            > >of dollars gambling in the stock market or for a world leader to
                            > create
                            > >war for the sake of oil booty, but not ok for an African President
                            > who
                            > >has lead a country thru 40 Years of stability to even come close
                            > to that
                            > >level of wealth. The President of the NYSE just got a retirement
                            > package
                            > >worth $136 million dollars at a time when the economy is in
                            > shambles!
                            > >Has an American I can say that a man of Bongo's capability and
                            > stature
                            > >deserves what he has and more. Any leader delivering stability
                            > amongst
                            > >the challenges that Africans face everyday gets my respect.
                            > >I think that it is about time you haters out there gave more
                            > respect to
                            > >the Gabonese President and washed your brain of this American
                            > bullsh*t.
                            > >
                            > >Ciao,
                            > >dupont
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:37:19 +0000 "C Yombi" <c_yombi@...>
                            > >writes:
                            > > >
                            > > > As usual you have no response other than to insult others. What
                            > a
                            > > > pity that
                            > > > you are uninformed enough to think that political economists are
                            > not
                            > > > already
                            > > > running your country and influencing geopolitics. You have a big
                            > ego
                            > > > and
                            > > > little else. As before you offer no real solutions other than
                            > > > Bongospeak.
                            > > > What a pity someone who has so much to say with so little
                            > substance.
                            > > > I bet
                            > > > you also have a sofa in your house, car to drive and television
                            > to
                            > > > watch.
                            > > > What a hypocrite. Unlike you, I help to support a large
                            > extended
                            > > > family in
                            > > > Gabon and have a direct tie other than tourism. Grow up.
                            > > >
                            > > > >From: dupont3@...
                            > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                            > > > >Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:46:34 -0700
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Since when did we throw our hat in and all follow behind
                            > political
                            > > > >economist?
                            > > > >While I respect political economist views, I sure as hell do
                            > not
                            > > > want
                            > > > >them running my country.
                            > > > >Ya know, you have a very simpleton view of everything. I mean
                            > > > your
                            > > > >intentions are good but your response to some of my points is
                            > like
                            > > > >programmed media soundbites. You talk about political prisoners
                            > and
                            > > > how
                            > > > >Bongo, "had plenty of time to fix things" as if running a
                            > country
                            > > > is all
                            > > > >about whats politically correct and egalitarian.
                            > > > >I do not agree with your take on things. You want to look at
                            > > > Gabon's
                            > > > >problems without considering the influences of geopolitic.
                            > > > >You ignore whats happening right now in other African states
                            > like
                            > > > the
                            > > > >Ivory Coast. You are brainwashed by the american media. All
                            > from
                            > > > the
                            > > > >comfort of your US sofa!
                            > > > >
                            > > > >Ciao,
                            > > > >dupont
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:58:24 +0000 "C Yombi"
                            > <c_yombi@...>
                            > > > >writes:
                            > > > > > As much as you chastize others for being against Bongo, you
                            > seem
                            > > > as
                            > > > > > blindly
                            > > > > > for Bongo. I have yet to see any evidence to support your
                            > views
                            > > > on
                            > > > > > his
                            > > > > > leadership. It is not Bongo that keeps the stability in
                            > Gabon,
                            > > > but
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > threat of intervention from the French military to protect
                            > oil
                            > > > > > interests.
                            > > > > > You never addressed the student uprisings I mentioned the
                            > last
                            > > > > > time.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil
                            > > > rich, is
                            > > > > > the US
                            > > > > > policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation? Does
                            > one
                            > > > > > really have
                            > > > > > anything to do with the other?"
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > You try to skillfully say a lot without much substance. Any
                            > > > > > political
                            > > > > > economist knows that economics and politics go hand in
                            > hand.
                            > > > Try
                            > > > > > looking up
                            > > > > > Ali Mazrui from Tanzania. The US foreign policy directly
                            > ties
                            > > > in
                            > > > > > with US
                            > > > > > economic interests both at home and abroad. Of course one
                            > has to
                            > > > do
                            > > > > > with
                            > > > > > another. Do you really think that one family like the Bush
                            > > > family
                            > > > > > would
                            > > > > > participate in politics if there was not an economic
                            > incentive
                            > > > > > involved?
                            > > > > > They may be oil rich but the US does not have enough oil
                            > > > reserves to
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > fullfill the demands of US CONSUMPTION. That is a plain
                            > reason
                            > > > why
                            > > > > > Bush is
                            > > > > > mixing US domestic interests with US foreign policy. Wh do
                            > you
                            > > > keep
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > mentioning US foreign policy when we are debating Gabonese
                            > > > domestic
                            > > > > > policy?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "I would wager that the views expressed there do not
                            > represent
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > majority
                            > > > > > of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the
                            > web
                            > > > site
                            > > > > > of the
                            > > > > > Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the Democrats!
                            > I
                            > > > take
                            > > > > > it as a
                            > > > > > sign that the democratic process is working in Gabon."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The very fact that Bongo has to take political prisoners to
                            > try
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > stop
                            > > > > > political dissent does not point to democracy. These people
                            > do
                            > > > not
                            > > > > > feel safe
                            > > > > > enough to voice their opinions in Gabon. You would wager
                            > that
                            > > > you
                            > > > > > know a lot
                            > > > > > about the ideas of Gabon but when faced with real opposition
                            > to
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > current
                            > > > > > political climate in Gabon you wager that it is a lie. The
                            > > > reason
                            > > > > > why the
                            > > > > > republican party is a valuable resource in a democratic
                            > > > presidential
                            > > > > > climate
                            > > > > > is that it helps to insure checks and balances on either
                            > side.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "The decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if
                            > > > anyone
                            > > > > > knows how
                            > > > > > to fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some
                            > > > inexperienced
                            > > > > > rag-tagged opposition leader."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The decline in oil revenues is nothing new. Bongo has had
                            > plenty
                            > > > of
                            > > > > > time to
                            > > > > > try and "fix" the situation. Any political economist knows
                            > that
                            > > > > > diversification of revenue generating income resources is
                            > the
                            > > > key to
                            > > > > > long
                            > > > > > tern generation of wealth, not continuing to rely on cash
                            > crop
                            > > > > > resources
                            > > > > > like timber and oil. Do you actually have any knowledge of
                            > the
                            > > > > > opposition
                            > > > > > candidates and their qualifications? What were Bongo's
                            > > > > > qualifications when
                            > > > > > he took over the presidency?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development.
                            > Roads
                            > > > need
                            > > > > > to be
                            > > > > > built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am
                            > seeing
                            > > > is
                            > > > > > some
                            > > > > > opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for
                            > > > political
                            > > > > > gain.They
                            > > > > > call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new roads or
                            > > > schools
                            > > > > > and
                            > > > > > hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse
                            > strings.
                            > > > > > Everything
                            > > > > > else takes a back seat to political aspiration and the
                            > quest
                            > > > for
                            > > > > > power. That
                            > > > > > is the real shame with this debate. The fact that if these
                            > > > people
                            > > > > > had their
                            > > > > > way little would change for the better."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Again, politics and economics go hand in hand. You mention
                            > "new
                            > > > > > politicians
                            > > > > > controlling the purse strings" - so now you are admitting
                            > that
                            > > > is
                            > > > > > what Bongo
                            > > > > > is doing? You still have not addressed the issues -if Bongo
                            > is
                            > > > such
                            > > > > > a
                            > > > > > capable leader with the supreme knowledge of how to fix the
                            > > > problems
                            > > > > > of
                            > > > > > Gabon - why is he not trying to fix them? It is easy to
                            > dismiss
                            > > > > > dissent as
                            > > > > > just another one trying to grab power. Why not address the
                            > > > issues
                            > > > > > raised on
                            > > > > > the web site instead of dismissing any call against Bongo
                            > as
                            > > > pure
                            > > > > > greed? You
                            > > > > > did not address the development issues I asked about the
                            > last
                            > > > time -
                            > > > > > i.e.
                            > > > > > why are NGOs and Peace Corps the primary educational,
                            > > > agricultural,
                            > > > > > and
                            > > > > > developmental support in Gabon? Where are all the jobs
                            > for
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > educated
                            > > > > > Gabonese who are passing the BAC?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "One thing that made America great is that in times of the
                            > > > greatest
                            > > > > > crisis,
                            > > > > > the people put aside their differences and worked together
                            > for
                            > > > > > their
                            > > > > > country. We saw it after the Civil War and during the Great
                            > > > > > Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that
                            > was
                            > > > > > destined to
                            > > > > > succeed. Part of the problem now in US political discourse
                            > is
                            > > > that
                            > > > > > we have
                            > > > > > lost a lot of that."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Yet again you are trying to separate politics and
                            > economics.
                            > > > The
                            > > > > > Civil War
                            > > > > > was just that - a war over the economic of slavery. Where
                            > is
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > unity of a
                            > > > > > civil war. Ask anyone who is a southerner and they will tell
                            > you
                            > > > > > that the
                            > > > > > Civil War is STILL one of the most divisive issues around.
                            > The
                            > > > South
                            > > > > > was
                            > > > > > forced as loser of the war to accept the policies of the
                            > North -
                            > > > it
                            > > > > > was not
                            > > > > > because of love of country. The Great Depression was an
                            > > > economic
                            > > > > > situation
                            > > > > > that forced political action. After 911, there was and still
                            > is
                            > > > a
                            > > > > > great deal
                            > > > > > of unity around the issue of controlling terrorism. But the
                            > > > thing
                            > > > > > that makes
                            > > > > > the US an interesting place is that we have the FREEDOM to
                            > > > dissent
                            > > > > > without
                            > > > > > fear of detention. For those detained, at least
                            > historically,
                            > > > there
                            > > > > > is the
                            > > > > > precedent of due process.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "The people in Gabon need to get together with their
                            > President
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > figure
                            > > > > > out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals moving
                            > out
                            > > > of
                            > > > > > their
                            > > > > > country at this time probably do not and should not be
                            > there in
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > first
                            > > > > > place."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > How many Americans live abroad for any number of reasons?
                            > Does
                            > > > this
                            > > > > > mean
                            > > > > > they have no right to comment on their country. Since when
                            > does
                            > > > > > location
                            > > > > > determine nationality? Does that mean that the Dali Lama has
                            > no
                            > > > > > right to be
                            > > > > > the leader of Nepal because he lives in India? Does that
                            > mean
                            > > > that
                            > > > > > economic
                            > > > > > and political refugees have no right to want to see a
                            > better
                            > > > country
                            > > > > > to
                            > > > > > return to?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I, again, ask Mr. Dupont to give some substantial reasoning
                            > > > behind
                            > > > > > the idea
                            > > > > > that Bongo is the way to go rather than jumping back and
                            > forth
                            > > > > > between
                            > > > > > criticizing the US foreign policy and Bush. Let's take the
                            > > > United
                            > > > > > States
                            > > > > > policies out of it a minute and look at GABON. France is one
                            > of
                            > > > > > Gabon's
                            > > > > > biggest trading partners. Where is the criticism for France
                            > or
                            > > > > > China? Gabon
                            > > > > > has billions of dollars of foreign debt which it can never
                            > repay
                            > > > but
                            > > > > > you
                            > > > > > propose giving more and more? That is hardly the answer.
                            > One
                            > > > thing I
                            > > > > > do
                            > > > > > agree with you on is forgiving 3rd world nations their
                            > debts.
                            > > > But
                            > > > > > this would
                            > > > > > make little difference if these same nations are still stuck
                            > in
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > economic
                            > > > > > and political patterns that got them into the debt in the
                            > first
                            > > > > > place. How
                            > > > > > would you propose to change this in Gabon with or without
                            > > > Bongo?
                            > > > > > That is the
                            > > > > > real issue - after all Bongo will die sooner or later. What
                            > > > about
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > looming AIDS crisis in Gabon and its economic impacts? Or
                            > may
                            > > > be
                            > > > > > Bongo has a
                            > > > > > handle on that already too?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "Once united with the President, the important steps needed
                            > to
                            > > > take
                            > > > > > become
                            > > > > > clear and pressure on international aid organizations has
                            > the
                            > > > best
                            > > > > > chance
                            > > > > > for success."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > You have already stated that you believe Bongo to be a
                            > > > popularly
                            > > > > > elected
                            > > > > > president of Gabon. If this is really the case, why are you
                            > > > waiting
                            > > > > > for
                            > > > > > popular supportto make a better Gabon? If the opposition
                            > like
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > BDPgabon
                            > > > > > is not a real opposition then why should Bongo worry about
                            > them
                            > > > at
                            > > > > > all? We
                            > > > > > all know that current global economic trends will change
                            > only
                            > > > very
                            > > > > > slowly
                            > > > > > and if we wait for that to happen then it will be too late
                            > for
                            > > > Gabon
                            > > > > > - Bongo
                            > > > > > or not. International aid has never brought any country
                            > long
                            > > > term
                            > > > > > economic
                            > > > > > stability. It is but a band aid on a gaping wound. Any
                            > leader
                            > > > as
                            > > > > > stellar as
                            > > > > > you claim Bongo to be would not need to rely on foreign aid
                            > to
                            > > > be
                            > > > > > the savior
                            > > > > > of his administration.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "Cause most times the answer to problems is right under you
                            > > > nose. "
                            > > > > > Exactly.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > >From: dupont3@...
                            > > > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                            > > > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:54:08 -0700
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >That is an opposition web site run by those who oppose
                            > > > President
                            > > > > > Bongo. I
                            > > > > > >would wager that the views expressed there do not
                            > represent
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > majority
                            > > > > > >of the Gabonese people. It is like pointing people to the
                            > web
                            > > > site
                            > > > > > of the
                            > > > > > >Republican party for info on Bill Clinton and the
                            > Democrats!
                            > > > > > >I take it as a sign that the democratic process is working
                            > in
                            > > > > > Gabon.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >I could also ask you why with the Bush family being so oil
                            > > > rich, is
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > >US policy foreign policy in such a state of degradation?
                            > Does
                            > > > one
                            > > > > > really
                            > > > > > >have anything to do with the other? Why do you have such a
                            > > > tunnel
                            > > > > > vision
                            > > > > > >of politics is the better question?
                            > > > > > >Gabon needs international aid just like Israel needs aid
                            > or
                            > > > Egypt
                            > > > > > needs
                            > > > > > >aid or any of the multitude of 3rd world countries that
                            > should
                            > > > have
                            > > > > > their
                            > > > > > >debt written off for the sake of economic development and
                            > > > > > stability
                            > > > > > >around the world. It is ridiculous to have these countries
                            > who
                            > > > need
                            > > > > > help
                            > > > > > >paying off rich nations who are then spending billions
                            > > > fighting
                            > > > > > wars. The
                            > > > > > >decline in oil revenues has really hurt Gabon and if
                            > anyone
                            > > > knows
                            > > > > > how to
                            > > > > > >fix the situation it is President Bongo, not some
                            > > > inexperienced
                            > > > > > >rag-tagged opposition leader.
                            > > > > > >We all know that Gabon needs infrastructure development.
                            > Roads
                            > > > need
                            > > > > > to be
                            > > > > > >built, and schools need to be cared for. But what I am
                            > seeing
                            > > > is
                            > > > > > some
                            > > > > > >opposition leaders taking advantage of the situation for
                            > > > political
                            > > > > > gain.
                            > > > > > >They call for a "New Gabon" but not in the sense of new
                            > roads
                            > > > or
                            > > > > > schools
                            > > > > > >and hospitals, but new politicians controlling the purse
                            > > > strings.
                            > > > > > >Everything else takes a back seat to political aspiration
                            > and
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > quest
                            > > > > > >for power. That is the real shame with this debate. The
                            > fact
                            > > > that
                            > > > > > if
                            > > > > > >these people had their way little would change for the
                            > better.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >One thing that made America great is that in times of the
                            > > > greatest
                            > > > > > >crisis, the people put aside their differences and worked
                            > > > together
                            > > > > > for
                            > > > > > >their country. We saw it after the Civil War and during
                            > the
                            > > > Great
                            > > > > > >Depression. There was a unifying force in the people that
                            > was
                            > > > > > destined to
                            > > > > > >succeed.
                            > > > > > >Part of the problem now in US political discourse is that
                            > we
                            > > > have
                            > > > > > lost a
                            > > > > > >lot of that.We have polarization between Republicans and
                            > > > Democrats
                            > > > > > in the
                            > > > > > >quest for more power and little if anything gets done
                            > > > effectively.
                            > > > > > You
                            > > > > > >see good ideas being lost in meaningless debate. It gets
                            > > > worse
                            > > > > > cause it
                            > > > > > >seems like now the vibe has spread like a virus around
                            > the
                            > > > world
                            > > > > > as
                            > > > > > >people in other nations, heavily influenced by the US, take
                            > on
                            > > > a
                            > > > > > sort of
                            > > > > > >copycat mentality and emulate the BAD apples in our system
                            > > > with
                            > > > > > good
                            > > > > > >intentions for their own. Is the Gabon opposition now just
                            > a
                            > > > sign
                            > > > > > of the
                            > > > > > >times?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >The people in Gabon need to get together with their
                            > President
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > figure
                            > > > > > >out the best way to move forward. Those intellectuals
                            > moving
                            > > > out of
                            > > > > > their
                            > > > > > >country at this time probably do not and should not be
                            > there
                            > > > in
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > >first place. Imagine if that happened in hard times in the
                            > US.
                            > > > > > >Gabonese also need to take stock of what they have and as
                            > the
                            > > > > > saying
                            > > > > > >goes, "be careful what you wish for." Cause most times the
                            > > > answer
                            > > > > > to
                            > > > > > >problems is right under you nose. In the case of Gabon, I
                            > > > believe
                            > > > > > that
                            > > > > > >the answer lies in the support of President Bongo and a
                            > faith
                            > > > in
                            > > > > > his most
                            > > > > > >capable leadership. Once united with the President, the
                            > > > important
                            > > > > > steps
                            > > > > > >needed to take become clear and pressure on international
                            > aid
                            > > > > > >organizations has the best chance for success.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >Ciao,
                            > > > > > >dupont
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:52:00 +0000 "C Yombi"
                            > > > <c_yombi@...>
                            > > > > > >writes:
                            > > > > > > > IF anyone is interested you can check out
                            > www.bdpgabon.org -
                            > > > A
                            > > > > > web
                            > > > > > > > site
                            > > > > > > > operated by Gabonese. And by the way, Gabon has had
                            > periods
                            > > > of
                            > > > > > > > instability
                            > > > > > > > like the student uprisings of the early 1990s which
                            > Bongo
                            > > > > > suppressed
                            > > > > > > > with
                            > > > > > > > help of the French military.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Also, I am interested in Mr. Dupont's explanation as to
                            > why
                            > > > > > after
                            > > > > > > > nearly 40
                            > > > > > > > years of "stability", with an obviously rich and
                            > > > "intelligent"
                            > > > > > > > leader who
                            > > > > > > > has "overwhelming support", Gabon is in it's present
                            > state
                            > > > of
                            > > > > > > > degradation?
                            > > > > > > > Why does the government still request are Peace Corps
                            > > > volunteers
                            > > > > > to
                            > > > > > > > provide
                            > > > > > > > economic, agricultural and education development instead
                            > of
                            > > > > > relying
                            > > > > > > > on its
                            > > > > > > > own people and why are the navigable roads almost
                            > > > non-existent
                            > > > > > > > outside of
                            > > > > > > > the capital?
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >From: dupont3@...
                            > > > > > > > >Reply-To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > > > >To: gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Gabon Discussion] Re: "aid package"
                            > > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:05 -0700
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >So what about the IMF and World Bank aid? Sure Bongo is
                            > a
                            > > > rich
                            > > > > > man,
                            > > > > > > > but
                            > > > > > > > >what does that have to do with aid to develop the
                            > > > > > infrastructure of
                            > > > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > >country? Take Saudi Arabia for instance, does the
                            > wealth
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > > > actions of
                            > > > > > > > >the Saudi Sheiks interfere with the US military aid
                            > that
                            > > > we
                            > > > > > give
                            > > > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > >country? Saudi Arabia receives billions of dollars
                            > worth
                            > > > of
                            > > > > > aid
                            > > > > > > > and
                            > > > > > > > >technology from the US every year. What about Egypt?
                            > Egypt
                            > > > > > > > receives over
                            > > > > > > > >5 billion dollars a year in US aid, the same as
                            > Israel.
                            > > > Egypt
                            > > > > > has
                            > > > > > > > a
                            > > > > > > > >President who has been in office for years and is
                            > > > considered in
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > same
                            > > > > > > > >way as Bongo by many observers.We all know how
                            > > > controversial
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > Israeli
                            > > > > > > > >aid package is, yet the money still flows.
                            > > > > > > > >So you see what you have against Bongo is nothing
                            > when
                            > > > you
                            > > > > > > > consider the
                            > > > > > > > >big picture of geopolitical movers and shakers.
                            > > > > > > > >Still, you will not face the reality of that and
                            > continue
                            > > > to
                            > > > > > bark up
                            > > > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > >wrong tree for the wrong reasons. You can not even see
                            > how
                            > > > > > > > development
                            > > > > > > > >can take place in Gabon, how these "critical issues
                            > > > > > confronting
                            > > > > > > > Gabonese"
                            > > > > > > > >can be addressed by geopolitic of the kind that
                            > President
                            > > > Bongo
                            > > > > > is
                            > > > > > > > a
                            > > > > > > > >master of.
                            > > > > > > > >In this sense your idea of leadership would fall flat
                            > on
                            > > > its
                            > > > > > face.
                            > > > > > > > Do we
                            > > > > > > > >have to experience civil war, opposing factions
                            > squabbling
                            > > > > > over
                            > > > > > > > money.
                            > > > > > > > >All because of a naive assumption that the country's
                            > needs
                            > > > > > would be
                            > > > > > > > met
                            > > > > > > > >by dealing with Bongo's private bank accounts.
                            > > > > > > > >While you take for granted the leadership of a country
                            > with
                            > > > 40
                            > > > > > > > years of
                            > > > > > > > >stability, other countries are being thrown into
                            > living
                            > > > hells
                            > > > > > > > because of
                            > > > > > > > >violent conflict.
                            > > > > > > > >We have seen it in Liberia,Uganda, Nigeria, Somalia,
                            > > > Zimbabwe,
                            > > > > > > > Angola,
                            > > > > > > > >Rwanda, Congo... and it is amazing that you seem to
                            > want
                            > > > to
                            > > > > > > > instigate
                            > > > > > > > >that kind of instability in Gabon. You must be out of
                            > your
                            > > > > > mind!
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >Ciao,
                            > > > > > > > >dupont
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:52:48 -0000 "bobutne"
                            > > > <bobutne@...>
                            > > > > > > > writes:
                            > > > > > > > > > "I do know that it would be a great idea for the
                            > IMF
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > World
                            > > > > > > > Bank
                            > > > > > > > > > to
                            > > > > > > > > > give Gabon an aid package that will invest in the
                            > > > > > infrastructure
                            > > > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > the country."
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Just what I figured. Mr. Dupont, definitely, is a
                            > Bongo
                            > > > > > shill
                            > > > > > > > who
                            > > > > > > > > > refuses to address the critical issues confronting
                            > all
                            > > > > > Gabonese
                            > > > > > > > and
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > appears on here to "beg" for more aid to benefit
                            > his
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > > > President
                            > > > > > > > > > Omar Bongo's pockets.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Asa you know, Mr. Dupont, President Omar Bongo has
                            > > > > > expatriated
                            > > > > > > > > > hundreds of million dollars of Gabonese funds in
                            > his
                            > > > > > personal
                            > > > > > > > bank
                            > > > > > > > > > accounts, French real estate and auto dealerships,
                            > etc.
                            > > > at
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > > > expense of all Gabonese.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > So be it. Omar Bongo has sufficient time to
                            > establish a
                            > > > > > very
                            > > > > > > > > > positive
                            > > > > > > > > > legacy that will benefit all Gabonese. May he make
                            > the
                            > > > > > right
                            > > > > > > > > > choices....
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > > > > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > > > > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > > > > > > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
                            > > > > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > > > > > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
                            > > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > > > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
                            > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > >
                            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
                            > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • bobutne
                            However the Bush administration has really exposed thru their policy and actions the dark side of American politics and makes one really start to consider
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 9, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              "However the Bush administration has really exposed thru their
                              policy and actions the dark side of American politics and makes one
                              really start to consider what many controversial 3rd world leaders
                              have been talking about for a long time. I admit that I was
                              brainwashed into believing a lot of stupid things by the American
                              media reporting on geopolitic. Is anyone else out there concerned
                              about this?"

                              Let's bring this down to the village level. What has Omar Bongo done
                              for the average Gabonese and how has the "darkside of American
                              polictics" affected the Gabonese? Can we assume that the "lightside"
                              is the fact that over 1,000 US citizens have and many continue to
                              volunteer two years of effort to work, side-by-side with Gabonese,
                              to improve the quality (health care/education/commerce/etc.) of life
                              of the Gabonese?
                            • dupont3@juno.com
                              I would say that the # 1 benefit of Omar Bongo s leadership in Gabon is the long term stability of the country. You got to consider that most important at a
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 9, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I would say that the # 1 benefit of Omar Bongo's leadership in Gabon is
                                the long term stability of the country.
                                You got to consider that most important at a time when the US is about
                                spend 87 billion dollars in Iraq for security reasons.
                                Most every nation nowadays is concerned about their security and
                                stability and the average person in Gabon should be happy that their
                                country
                                has not had any civil wars, military coups d'etat's or invaded any other
                                country or got involved in any destabilizing neighboring conflicts under
                                Bongo's leadership. If you can imagine what the people of Liberia have
                                been through under Charles Taylor or all the corrupt officials who have
                                plundered and mismanaged Nigeria's oil wealth for example. If you look
                                at how the Ivory Coast leadership has failed the citizens after the
                                President Houphouet Boigny's death, you can get an idea of how important
                                that aspect of Presidential leadership is.

                                The darkside of American politics I would say is the way that many
                                politicians here manipulate the geopolitical scene for their own personal
                                gain.
                                For example, how much of that 87 billion dollars expended in Iraq is
                                going to benefit American corporations at the expense of the lives of the
                                average Iraqi? The darkside is also how US supported UN embargo's of
                                nations can end up killing hundreds of thousands of young people and
                                oppressing nations for years after. What has the US embargo on Cuba
                                accomplished compared to its oppression of the Cuban people?
                                African nations like Gabon are affected just as well. A simple example
                                would be how the US is trying to get genetically modified grain into
                                Africa or the 24 billion dollars a year that African countries lose
                                because of the subsidies paid to farmers of rich nations.

                                Yes, there are many US citizens who have contributed to help in Gabon
                                through the Peace Corps. That is a great program started by President
                                John F Kennedy, a man with a great vision. Still, it has no impact on the
                                real important geopolitical issues facing the 3rd World countries so I
                                would not consider it the lightside. The lightside of American politics
                                is stuff like the Marshall Plan to rebuild Germany and Japan after WW2.
                                This idea effectively merged a successful economic development plan with
                                the geopolitical and democratic interests of the US.
                                The irony is that it cost about 87 billion dollars, around the same that
                                we are about blow in Iraq!

                                Ciao,
                                dupont








                                On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:15:50 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...> writes:
                                > "However the Bush administration has really exposed thru their
                                > policy and actions the dark side of American politics and makes one
                                >
                                > really start to consider what many controversial 3rd world leaders
                                > have been talking about for a long time. I admit that I was
                                > brainwashed into believing a lot of stupid things by the American
                                > media reporting on geopolitic. Is anyone else out there concerned
                                > about this?"
                                >
                                > Let's bring this down to the village level. What has Omar Bongo done
                                >
                                > for the average Gabonese and how has the "darkside of American
                                > polictics" affected the Gabonese? Can we assume that the "lightside"
                                >
                                > is the fact that over 1,000 US citizens have and many continue to
                                > volunteer two years of effort to work, side-by-side with Gabonese,
                                > to improve the quality (health care/education/commerce/etc.) of life
                                >
                                > of the Gabonese?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • bobutne
                                More hot air and little substance. Anyone with a bit of Gabon knowledge is well aware that Omar Bongo has maintained his power in Gabon due to the French
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 10, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  More hot air and little substance. Anyone with a bit of Gabon
                                  knowledge is well aware that Omar Bongo has maintained his power in
                                  Gabon due to the French military, the Moroccon Presidential Guard,
                                  the spending of a portion of Gabon's wealth to co-opt numerous
                                  opposition leaders, press censorship and the jailings of foes who
                                  don't tow the line. At the same time, Omar Bongo has managed to
                                  steal well over $1 billion of Gabon's wealth.

                                  Then, you castigate the US Government for acting as an Imperial
                                  Power whom should ask Americans to spend billions more to further
                                  Bongo's wealth and control of the Gabonese.

                                  World Imperialism has its price and, in my opinion, is doomed to
                                  failure. In that, I agree.


                                  --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, dupont3@j... wrote:
                                  > I would say that the # 1 benefit of Omar Bongo's leadership in
                                  Gabon is
                                  > the long term stability of the country.
                                  > You got to consider that most important at a time when the US is
                                  about
                                  > spend 87 billion dollars in Iraq for security reasons.
                                  > Most every nation nowadays is concerned about their security and
                                  > stability and the average person in Gabon should be happy that
                                  their
                                  > country
                                  > has not had any civil wars, military coups d'etat's or invaded any
                                  other
                                  > country or got involved in any destabilizing neighboring
                                  conflicts under
                                  > Bongo's leadership. If you can imagine what the people of Liberia
                                  have
                                  > been through under Charles Taylor or all the corrupt officials who
                                  have
                                  > plundered and mismanaged Nigeria's oil wealth for example. If you
                                  look
                                  > at how the Ivory Coast leadership has failed the citizens after the
                                  > President Houphouet Boigny's death, you can get an idea of how
                                  important
                                  > that aspect of Presidential leadership is.
                                  >
                                  > The darkside of American politics I would say is the way that many
                                  > politicians here manipulate the geopolitical scene for their own
                                  personal
                                  > gain.
                                  > For example, how much of that 87 billion dollars expended in Iraq
                                  is
                                  > going to benefit American corporations at the expense of the lives
                                  of the
                                  > average Iraqi? The darkside is also how US supported UN embargo's
                                  of
                                  > nations can end up killing hundreds of thousands of young people
                                  and
                                  > oppressing nations for years after. What has the US embargo on Cuba
                                  > accomplished compared to its oppression of the Cuban people?
                                  > African nations like Gabon are affected just as well. A simple
                                  example
                                  > would be how the US is trying to get genetically modified grain
                                  into
                                  > Africa or the 24 billion dollars a year that African countries
                                  lose
                                  > because of the subsidies paid to farmers of rich nations.
                                  >
                                  > Yes, there are many US citizens who have contributed to help in
                                  Gabon
                                  > through the Peace Corps. That is a great program started by
                                  President
                                  > John F Kennedy, a man with a great vision. Still, it has no impact
                                  on the
                                  > real important geopolitical issues facing the 3rd World countries
                                  so I
                                  > would not consider it the lightside. The lightside of American
                                  politics
                                  > is stuff like the Marshall Plan to rebuild Germany and Japan after
                                  WW2.
                                  > This idea effectively merged a successful economic development
                                  plan with
                                  > the geopolitical and democratic interests of the US.
                                  > The irony is that it cost about 87 billion dollars, around the
                                  same that
                                  > we are about blow in Iraq!
                                  >
                                  > Ciao,
                                  > dupont
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:15:50 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...> writes:
                                  > > "However the Bush administration has really exposed thru their
                                  > > policy and actions the dark side of American politics and makes
                                  one
                                  > >
                                  > > really start to consider what many controversial 3rd world
                                  leaders
                                  > > have been talking about for a long time. I admit that I was
                                  > > brainwashed into believing a lot of stupid things by the
                                  American
                                  > > media reporting on geopolitic. Is anyone else out there
                                  concerned
                                  > > about this?"
                                  > >
                                  > > Let's bring this down to the village level. What has Omar Bongo
                                  done
                                  > >
                                  > > for the average Gabonese and how has the "darkside of American
                                  > > polictics" affected the Gabonese? Can we assume that
                                  the "lightside"
                                  > >
                                  > > is the fact that over 1,000 US citizens have and many continue
                                  to
                                  > > volunteer two years of effort to work, side-by-side with
                                  Gabonese,
                                  > > to improve the quality (health care/education/commerce/etc.) of
                                  life
                                  > >
                                  > > of the Gabonese?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dupont3@juno.com
                                  You call my comments hot air and with little substance and then you contradict yourself by saying that you agree that world imperialism is doomed to failure.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 11, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    You call my comments hot air and with little substance and then you
                                    contradict yourself by saying that you agree that world imperialism is
                                    doomed to failure. What is it? Do you agree that imperialist foreign
                                    policy is hurting 3rd World nations or not? And if you do agree then why
                                    is it of little substance the problems that Gabon is facing because of
                                    it?
                                    Actually, I do not really agree that world imperialism is doomed to
                                    failure. Imperialism has oppressed people has far back has history can
                                    document. Empires just change shape and form and will forever be a part
                                    of politics on this earth. I just wanted to show how you hypocrites in
                                    the US can benefit from the policy of imperialisim and yet try to bring
                                    down President Bongo who is a victim of it. Yea, has an American citizen
                                    I benefit from US imperialism everyday, but you wont see me being envious
                                    of a capable leader like Bongo's wealth. I am trying to do what I can as
                                    a citizen to change American policy to help these countries. I want to
                                    see more successful and wealthy Gabonese citizens, not less.

                                    I just do not believe that President Bongo has stolen any wealth from
                                    Gabon. I do not see it like that. It is his job to manage the wealth of
                                    the country in the way that he sees fits the needs of the country and 40
                                    years of stability and environmental preservation is a great achievement.
                                    The US State department recognizes that in their dossier on Gabon. If the
                                    President needs French military assistance, Morroccan guards or pygmies
                                    to help create security and stability for the people of Gabon then so be
                                    it. Gabon is a better nation because of it. Your argument fails because
                                    you do not accept this. You want to look at the personal struggle of an
                                    individual in Gabon and compare that to the wealth of the President. You
                                    do not consider that such an individual could be happy for at least the
                                    security and stability of his country and the preservation of its
                                    environment.
                                    Gabon is a jewel of Africa and hopefully it will stay that way. So from
                                    an American point of view I say lets help Gabon manage its human and
                                    natural resources successfully with the stable leadership of President
                                    Bongo. Thats the best way forward.

                                    Ciao,
                                    dupont



                                    On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 03:43:27 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...> writes:
                                    > More hot air and little substance. Anyone with a bit of Gabon
                                    > knowledge is well aware that Omar Bongo has maintained his power in
                                    >
                                    > Gabon due to the French military, the Moroccon Presidential Guard,
                                    > the spending of a portion of Gabon's wealth to co-opt numerous
                                    > opposition leaders, press censorship and the jailings of foes who
                                    > don't tow the line. At the same time, Omar Bongo has managed to
                                    > steal well over $1 billion of Gabon's wealth.
                                    >
                                    > Then, you castigate the US Government for acting as an Imperial
                                    > Power whom should ask Americans to spend billions more to further
                                    > Bongo's wealth and control of the Gabonese.
                                    >
                                    > World Imperialism has its price and, in my opinion, is doomed to
                                    > failure. In that, I agree.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, dupont3@j... wrote:
                                    > > I would say that the # 1 benefit of Omar Bongo's leadership in
                                    > Gabon is
                                    > > the long term stability of the country.
                                    > > You got to consider that most important at a time when the US is
                                    > about
                                    > > spend 87 billion dollars in Iraq for security reasons.
                                    > > Most every nation nowadays is concerned about their security and
                                    > > stability and the average person in Gabon should be happy that
                                    > their
                                    > > country
                                    > > has not had any civil wars, military coups d'etat's or invaded any
                                    >
                                    > other
                                    > > country or got involved in any destabilizing neighboring
                                    > conflicts under
                                    > > Bongo's leadership. If you can imagine what the people of Liberia
                                    >
                                    > have
                                    > > been through under Charles Taylor or all the corrupt officials who
                                    >
                                    > have
                                    > > plundered and mismanaged Nigeria's oil wealth for example. If you
                                    >
                                    > look
                                    > > at how the Ivory Coast leadership has failed the citizens after
                                    > the
                                    > > President Houphouet Boigny's death, you can get an idea of how
                                    > important
                                    > > that aspect of Presidential leadership is.
                                    > >
                                    > > The darkside of American politics I would say is the way that many
                                    > > politicians here manipulate the geopolitical scene for their own
                                    > personal
                                    > > gain.
                                    > > For example, how much of that 87 billion dollars expended in Iraq
                                    >
                                    > is
                                    > > going to benefit American corporations at the expense of the lives
                                    >
                                    > of the
                                    > > average Iraqi? The darkside is also how US supported UN embargo's
                                    >
                                    > of
                                    > > nations can end up killing hundreds of thousands of young people
                                    > and
                                    > > oppressing nations for years after. What has the US embargo on
                                    > Cuba
                                    > > accomplished compared to its oppression of the Cuban people?
                                    > > African nations like Gabon are affected just as well. A simple
                                    > example
                                    > > would be how the US is trying to get genetically modified grain
                                    > into
                                    > > Africa or the 24 billion dollars a year that African countries
                                    > lose
                                    > > because of the subsidies paid to farmers of rich nations.
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, there are many US citizens who have contributed to help in
                                    > Gabon
                                    > > through the Peace Corps. That is a great program started by
                                    > President
                                    > > John F Kennedy, a man with a great vision. Still, it has no impact
                                    >
                                    > on the
                                    > > real important geopolitical issues facing the 3rd World countries
                                    >
                                    > so I
                                    > > would not consider it the lightside. The lightside of American
                                    > politics
                                    > > is stuff like the Marshall Plan to rebuild Germany and Japan after
                                    >
                                    > WW2.
                                    > > This idea effectively merged a successful economic development
                                    > plan with
                                    > > the geopolitical and democratic interests of the US.
                                    > > The irony is that it cost about 87 billion dollars, around the
                                    > same that
                                    > > we are about blow in Iraq!
                                    > >
                                    > > Ciao,
                                    > > dupont
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:15:50 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...>
                                    > writes:
                                    > > > "However the Bush administration has really exposed thru their
                                    > > > policy and actions the dark side of American politics and makes
                                    >
                                    > one
                                    > > >
                                    > > > really start to consider what many controversial 3rd world
                                    > leaders
                                    > > > have been talking about for a long time. I admit that I was
                                    > > > brainwashed into believing a lot of stupid things by the
                                    > American
                                    > > > media reporting on geopolitic. Is anyone else out there
                                    > concerned
                                    > > > about this?"
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Let's bring this down to the village level. What has Omar Bongo
                                    >
                                    > done
                                    > > >
                                    > > > for the average Gabonese and how has the "darkside of American
                                    > > > polictics" affected the Gabonese? Can we assume that
                                    > the "lightside"
                                    > > >
                                    > > > is the fact that over 1,000 US citizens have and many continue
                                    > to
                                    > > > volunteer two years of effort to work, side-by-side with
                                    > Gabonese,
                                    > > > to improve the quality (health care/education/commerce/etc.) of
                                    >
                                    > life
                                    > > >
                                    > > > of the Gabonese?
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • bobutne
                                    Of course, the US and Western European nations continue to undermine the development of Africa by a variety of means including the subsidizing and dumping of
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Sep 14, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Of course, the US and Western European nations continue to undermine
                                      the development of Africa by a variety of means including the
                                      subsidizing and dumping of domestic commodities on the world market.
                                      The recent Cancun fiasco well points this out.

                                      However, Gabon produces nothing for export other than allows
                                      foreigners to extract its valuable/depleteable resources with
                                      approximately 15% of that wealth going directly to the bank accounts
                                      of Omar Bongo & Friends.

                                      Thorny issues. Do you have any practical solutions?


                                      --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, dupont3@j... wrote:
                                      > You call my comments hot air and with little substance and then you
                                      > contradict yourself by saying that you agree that world
                                      imperialism is
                                      > doomed to failure. What is it? Do you agree that imperialist
                                      foreign
                                      > policy is hurting 3rd World nations or not? And if you do agree
                                      then why
                                      > is it of little substance the problems that Gabon is facing
                                      because of
                                      > it?
                                      > Actually, I do not really agree that world imperialism is doomed
                                      to
                                      > failure. Imperialism has oppressed people has far back has history
                                      can
                                      > document. Empires just change shape and form and will forever be a
                                      part
                                      > of politics on this earth. I just wanted to show how you
                                      hypocrites in
                                      > the US can benefit from the policy of imperialisim and yet try to
                                      bring
                                      > down President Bongo who is a victim of it. Yea, has an American
                                      citizen
                                      > I benefit from US imperialism everyday, but you wont see me being
                                      envious
                                      > of a capable leader like Bongo's wealth. I am trying to do what I
                                      can as
                                      > a citizen to change American policy to help these countries. I
                                      want to
                                      > see more successful and wealthy Gabonese citizens, not less.
                                      >
                                      > I just do not believe that President Bongo has stolen any wealth
                                      from
                                      > Gabon. I do not see it like that. It is his job to manage the
                                      wealth of
                                      > the country in the way that he sees fits the needs of the country
                                      and 40
                                      > years of stability and environmental preservation is a great
                                      achievement.
                                      > The US State department recognizes that in their dossier on Gabon.
                                      If the
                                      > President needs French military assistance, Morroccan guards or
                                      pygmies
                                      > to help create security and stability for the people of Gabon then
                                      so be
                                      > it. Gabon is a better nation because of it. Your argument fails
                                      because
                                      > you do not accept this. You want to look at the personal struggle
                                      of an
                                      > individual in Gabon and compare that to the wealth of the
                                      President. You
                                      > do not consider that such an individual could be happy for at
                                      least the
                                      > security and stability of his country and the preservation of its
                                      > environment.
                                      > Gabon is a jewel of Africa and hopefully it will stay that way. So
                                      from
                                      > an American point of view I say lets help Gabon manage its human
                                      and
                                      > natural resources successfully with the stable leadership of
                                      President
                                      > Bongo. Thats the best way forward.
                                      >
                                      > Ciao,
                                      > dupont
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 03:43:27 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...> writes:
                                      > > More hot air and little substance. Anyone with a bit of Gabon
                                      > > knowledge is well aware that Omar Bongo has maintained his power
                                      in
                                      > >
                                      > > Gabon due to the French military, the Moroccon Presidential
                                      Guard,
                                      > > the spending of a portion of Gabon's wealth to co-opt numerous
                                      > > opposition leaders, press censorship and the jailings of foes
                                      who
                                      > > don't tow the line. At the same time, Omar Bongo has managed to
                                      > > steal well over $1 billion of Gabon's wealth.
                                      > >
                                      > > Then, you castigate the US Government for acting as an Imperial
                                      > > Power whom should ask Americans to spend billions more to
                                      further
                                      > > Bongo's wealth and control of the Gabonese.
                                      > >
                                      > > World Imperialism has its price and, in my opinion, is doomed to
                                      > > failure. In that, I agree.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, dupont3@j... wrote:
                                      > > > I would say that the # 1 benefit of Omar Bongo's leadership in
                                      > > Gabon is
                                      > > > the long term stability of the country.
                                      > > > You got to consider that most important at a time when the US
                                      is
                                      > > about
                                      > > > spend 87 billion dollars in Iraq for security reasons.
                                      > > > Most every nation nowadays is concerned about their security
                                      and
                                      > > > stability and the average person in Gabon should be happy that
                                      > > their
                                      > > > country
                                      > > > has not had any civil wars, military coups d'etat's or invaded
                                      any
                                      > >
                                      > > other
                                      > > > country or got involved in any destabilizing neighboring
                                      > > conflicts under
                                      > > > Bongo's leadership. If you can imagine what the people of
                                      Liberia
                                      > >
                                      > > have
                                      > > > been through under Charles Taylor or all the corrupt officials
                                      who
                                      > >
                                      > > have
                                      > > > plundered and mismanaged Nigeria's oil wealth for example. If
                                      you
                                      > >
                                      > > look
                                      > > > at how the Ivory Coast leadership has failed the citizens
                                      after
                                      > > the
                                      > > > President Houphouet Boigny's death, you can get an idea of how
                                      > > important
                                      > > > that aspect of Presidential leadership is.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The darkside of American politics I would say is the way that
                                      many
                                      > > > politicians here manipulate the geopolitical scene for their
                                      own
                                      > > personal
                                      > > > gain.
                                      > > > For example, how much of that 87 billion dollars expended in
                                      Iraq
                                      > >
                                      > > is
                                      > > > going to benefit American corporations at the expense of the
                                      lives
                                      > >
                                      > > of the
                                      > > > average Iraqi? The darkside is also how US supported UN
                                      embargo's
                                      > >
                                      > > of
                                      > > > nations can end up killing hundreds of thousands of young
                                      people
                                      > > and
                                      > > > oppressing nations for years after. What has the US embargo on
                                      > > Cuba
                                      > > > accomplished compared to its oppression of the Cuban people?
                                      > > > African nations like Gabon are affected just as well. A simple
                                      > > example
                                      > > > would be how the US is trying to get genetically modified
                                      grain
                                      > > into
                                      > > > Africa or the 24 billion dollars a year that African
                                      countries
                                      > > lose
                                      > > > because of the subsidies paid to farmers of rich nations.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yes, there are many US citizens who have contributed to help
                                      in
                                      > > Gabon
                                      > > > through the Peace Corps. That is a great program started by
                                      > > President
                                      > > > John F Kennedy, a man with a great vision. Still, it has no
                                      impact
                                      > >
                                      > > on the
                                      > > > real important geopolitical issues facing the 3rd World
                                      countries
                                      > >
                                      > > so I
                                      > > > would not consider it the lightside. The lightside of American
                                      > > politics
                                      > > > is stuff like the Marshall Plan to rebuild Germany and Japan
                                      after
                                      > >
                                      > > WW2.
                                      > > > This idea effectively merged a successful economic
                                      development
                                      > > plan with
                                      > > > the geopolitical and democratic interests of the US.
                                      > > > The irony is that it cost about 87 billion dollars, around the
                                      > > same that
                                      > > > we are about blow in Iraq!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Ciao,
                                      > > > dupont
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:15:50 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...>
                                      > > writes:
                                      > > > > "However the Bush administration has really exposed thru
                                      their
                                      > > > > policy and actions the dark side of American politics and
                                      makes
                                      > >
                                      > > one
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > really start to consider what many controversial 3rd world
                                      > > leaders
                                      > > > > have been talking about for a long time. I admit that I was
                                      > > > > brainwashed into believing a lot of stupid things by the
                                      > > American
                                      > > > > media reporting on geopolitic. Is anyone else out there
                                      > > concerned
                                      > > > > about this?"
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Let's bring this down to the village level. What has Omar
                                      Bongo
                                      > >
                                      > > done
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > for the average Gabonese and how has the "darkside of
                                      American
                                      > > > > polictics" affected the Gabonese? Can we assume that
                                      > > the "lightside"
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > is the fact that over 1,000 US citizens have and many
                                      continue
                                      > > to
                                      > > > > volunteer two years of effort to work, side-by-side with
                                      > > Gabonese,
                                      > > > > to improve the quality (health care/education/commerce/etc.)
                                      of
                                      > >
                                      > > life
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > of the Gabonese?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                      > >
                                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                    • dupont3@juno.com
                                      Like I said before, I think this idea that President Bongo has stolen any money from Gabon s treasury is ridiculous. Furthermore, your so-called sources have
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Sep 15, 2003
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Like I said before, I think this idea that President Bongo has stolen any
                                        money from Gabon's treasury is ridiculous. Furthermore, your so-called
                                        sources have no credibility since it is clear that the intended goal is
                                        the destabilization of the region and leadership of Gabon.
                                        Coming from a US citizen living in a country where political and
                                        business corruption is rampant, you do not address in context the
                                        hypocritical nature of your argument. You chose to support the
                                        polarization of a peaceful and stable 3rd World African country rather
                                        than focusing your energy on advocating fair development support and
                                        investment from the Western world. Its as if having Peace Corps
                                        volunteers running around the country is enough.

                                        Is it any wonder then why African countries like Gabon have such a
                                        difficult time at it? Rather than a "War on Terror" would not a "War on
                                        Hypocrisy" solve many of these problems? Ya know, a war on the double
                                        standards. Where one nation acts and then condemns the other for doing
                                        the same. Where one society "smoke screens" its problems by blaming
                                        another. Where the largest propaganda machine in the world, condemns the
                                        smallest. Where a society consumming 30% of the worlds resources shows
                                        contempt for one reputed for preservation. Where intimidation and greed
                                        trumps democratic values.You tell me which side needs the change in
                                        leadership?


                                        Ciao,
                                        dupont







                                        On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:39:39 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...> writes:
                                        > Of course, the US and Western Europe continue to undermine the
                                        > development of Africa by a variety of means not least is subsidizing
                                        >
                                        > and dumping domestic commodities on the world market. The recent
                                        > Cancun fiasco well points this out.
                                        >
                                        > However, Gabon produce nothing for export other than allows
                                        > foreigners to extract their valuable/depleteable resources.
                                        > According to sources, 15% of that wealth goes directly to Omar Bongo
                                        >
                                        > & Friends.
                                        >
                                        > Once Omar Bongo stops stealing the 15% and allows that money to go
                                        > to the Gabonese national treasury, I'd hail him as much as you.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • bobutne
                                        It is well known within the oil, mineral and timber industries that to successfully bid on a Gabon resource allocation, one must set aside 15% commission for
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Sep 15, 2003
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          It is well known within the oil, mineral and timber industries that
                                          to successfully bid on a Gabon resource allocation, one must set
                                          aside 15% "commission" for Omar Bongo & Associates. If that isn't
                                          stealing from Gabon's treasury/people, what is?

                                          Re your statement, "intimidation and greed trumps democratic
                                          values", are you inferring that the US is the worst of the lot?
                                          Grant you that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and Wolfowitz are a
                                          intimidating/greedy/ lot but let's not make a saint out of Omar
                                          Bongo. He could teach Bush a thing or two on how to really play the
                                          intimidation and greedy game.



                                          --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, dupont3@j... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Like I said before, I think this idea that President Bongo has
                                          stolen any
                                          > money from Gabon's treasury is ridiculous. Furthermore, your so-
                                          called
                                          > sources have no credibility since it is clear that the intended
                                          goal is
                                          > the destabilization of the region and leadership of Gabon.
                                          > Coming from a US citizen living in a country where political and
                                          > business corruption is rampant, you do not address in context the
                                          > hypocritical nature of your argument. You chose to support the
                                          > polarization of a peaceful and stable 3rd World African country
                                          rather
                                          > than focusing your energy on advocating fair development support
                                          and
                                          > investment from the Western world. Its as if having Peace Corps
                                          > volunteers running around the country is enough.
                                          >
                                          > Is it any wonder then why African countries like Gabon have such a
                                          > difficult time at it? Rather than a "War on Terror" would not
                                          a "War on
                                          > Hypocrisy" solve many of these problems? Ya know, a war on the
                                          double
                                          > standards. Where one nation acts and then condemns the other for
                                          doing
                                          > the same. Where one society "smoke screens" its problems by
                                          blaming
                                          > another. Where the largest propaganda machine in the world,
                                          condemns the
                                          > smallest. Where a society consumming 30% of the worlds resources
                                          shows
                                          > contempt for one reputed for preservation. Where intimidation and
                                          greed
                                          > trumps democratic values.You tell me which side needs the change in
                                          > leadership?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ciao,
                                          > dupont
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:39:39 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...> writes:
                                          > > Of course, the US and Western Europe continue to undermine the
                                          > > development of Africa by a variety of means not least is
                                          subsidizing
                                          > >
                                          > > and dumping domestic commodities on the world market. The recent
                                          > > Cancun fiasco well points this out.
                                          > >
                                          > > However, Gabon produce nothing for export other than allows
                                          > > foreigners to extract their valuable/depleteable resources.
                                          > > According to sources, 15% of that wealth goes directly to Omar
                                          Bongo
                                          > >
                                          > > & Friends.
                                          > >
                                          > > Once Omar Bongo stops stealing the 15% and allows that money to
                                          go
                                          > > to the Gabonese national treasury, I'd hail him as much as you.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                          > >
                                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • dupont3@juno.com
                                          That is not stealing! How naive can you be about the political process and how does that big fat rumour change the dynamic of political leadership in the
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Sep 15, 2003
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            That is not stealing! How naive can you be about the political process
                                            and how does that big fat rumour change the dynamic of political
                                            leadership in the world? I mean is it anything new that a President
                                            finds a way to benefit personally from big development deals?
                                            You need to read up on the history of the world as it relates to oil and
                                            mineral resources and all of the backroom deals that have been made
                                            between governments and businessmen to establish the petroleum industry
                                            around the world. You will see a lot of policy that you are not happy
                                            with and a lot of commissions being dealt out. Considering all of that
                                            how can you make an issue of the deals made by President Bongo for Gabon
                                            and why do you insist on focusing on Bongo on issues that are the norm
                                            around the world and thruout history?
                                            It is amazing what passes for political correctness today. Sometimes such
                                            thinking amounts to pure nonsense and does more harm than good.
                                            Putting Bongo in the same league as the Bush family and those
                                            chickenhawks formulating American policy today is equally ridiculous!
                                            Those people are now siphoning off up to 87 Billion dollars from the
                                            American treasury for a illegal war. All while giving their corporate and
                                            political interests huge tax breaks! And that type of stuff is like a
                                            regular day at the office for them.

                                            I am still waiting to hear from you for some intellectual and
                                            progressive ideas regarding the development of Gabon that goes beyond the
                                            rumor and the hearsay around Bongo's wealth. My first post was with that
                                            spirit in mind but you seem to have thrown this discussion in the mud
                                            like a cheap tabloid.

                                            Ciao,
                                            dupont








                                            On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:51:52 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@...> writes:
                                            > It is well known within the oil, mineral and timber industries that
                                            > to successfully bid on a Gabon resource allocation, one must set
                                            > aside 15% "commission" for Omar Bongo & Associates. If that isn't
                                            > stealing from Gabon's treasury/people, what is?
                                            >
                                            > Re your statement, "intimidation and greed trumps democratic
                                            > values", are you inferring that the US is the worst of the lot?
                                            > Grant you that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and Wolfowitz are a
                                            > intimidating/greedy/ lot but let's not make a saint out of Omar
                                            > Bongo. He could teach Bush a thing or two on how to really play the
                                            >
                                            > intimidation and greedy game.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, dupont3@j... wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Like I said before, I think this idea that President Bongo has
                                            > stolen any
                                            > > money from Gabon's treasury is ridiculous. Furthermore, your so-
                                            > called
                                            > > sources have no credibility since it is clear that the intended
                                            >
                                            > goal is
                                            > > the destabilization of the region and leadership of Gabon.
                                            > > Coming from a US citizen living in a country where political and
                                            > > business corruption is rampant, you do not address in context the
                                            > > hypocritical nature of your argument. You chose to support the
                                            > > polarization of a peaceful and stable 3rd World African country
                                            > rather
                                            > > than focusing your energy on advocating fair development support
                                            > and
                                            > > investment from the Western world. Its as if having Peace Corps
                                            > > volunteers running around the country is enough.
                                            > >
                                            > > Is it any wonder then why African countries like Gabon have such
                                            > a
                                            > > difficult time at it? Rather than a "War on Terror" would not
                                            > a "War on
                                            > > Hypocrisy" solve many of these problems? Ya know, a war on the
                                            > double
                                            > > standards. Where one nation acts and then condemns the other for
                                            > doing
                                            > > the same. Where one society "smoke screens" its problems by
                                            > ming
                                            > > another. Where the largest propaganda machine in the world,
                                            > condemns the
                                            > > smallest. Where a society consumming 30% of the worlds resources
                                            > shows
                                            > > contempt for one reputed for preservation. Where intimidation and
                                            >
                                            > greed
                                            > > trumps democratic values.You tell me which side needs the change
                                            > in
                                            > > leadership?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Ciao,
                                            > > dupont
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:39:39 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...>
                                            > writes:
                                            > > > Of course, the US and Western Europe continue to undermine the
                                            > > > development of Africa by a variety of means not least is
                                            > subsidizing
                                            > > >
                                            > > > and dumping domestic commodities on the world market. The recent
                                            >
                                            > > > Cancun fiasco well points this out.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > However, Gabon produce nothing for export other than allows
                                            > > > foreigners to extract their valuable/depleteable resources.
                                            > > > According to sources, 15% of that wealth goes directly to Omar
                                            > Bongo
                                            > > >
                                            > > > & Friends.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Once Omar Bongo stops stealing the 15% and allows that money to
                                            >
                                            > go
                                            > > > to the Gabonese national treasury, I'd hail him as much as you.
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            > > >
                                            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • bobutne
                                            I am still waiting to hear from you for some intellectual and progressive ideas regarding the development of Gabon..... Focus on improving health care,
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Sep 16, 2003
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              "I am still waiting to hear from you for some intellectual and
                                              progressive ideas regarding the development of Gabon....."

                                              Focus on improving health care, education and rural employment
                                              opportunities.



                                              --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, dupont3@j... wrote:
                                              > That is not stealing! How naive can you be about the political
                                              process
                                              > and how does that big fat rumour change the dynamic of political
                                              > leadership in the world? I mean is it anything new that a President
                                              > finds a way to benefit personally from big development deals?
                                              > You need to read up on the history of the world as it relates to
                                              oil and
                                              > mineral resources and all of the backroom deals that have been made
                                              > between governments and businessmen to establish the petroleum
                                              industry
                                              > around the world. You will see a lot of policy that you are not
                                              happy
                                              > with and a lot of commissions being dealt out. Considering all of
                                              that
                                              > how can you make an issue of the deals made by President Bongo for
                                              Gabon
                                              > and why do you insist on focusing on Bongo on issues that are the
                                              norm
                                              > around the world and thruout history?
                                              > It is amazing what passes for political correctness today.
                                              Sometimes such
                                              > thinking amounts to pure nonsense and does more harm than good.
                                              > Putting Bongo in the same league as the Bush family and those
                                              > chickenhawks formulating American policy today is equally
                                              ridiculous!
                                              > Those people are now siphoning off up to 87 Billion dollars from
                                              the
                                              > American treasury for a illegal war. All while giving their
                                              corporate and
                                              > political interests huge tax breaks! And that type of stuff is like
                                              a
                                              > regular day at the office for them.
                                              >
                                              > I am still waiting to hear from you for some intellectual and
                                              > progressive ideas regarding the development of Gabon that goes
                                              beyond the
                                              > rumor and the hearsay around Bongo's wealth. My first post was with
                                              that
                                              > spirit in mind but you seem to have thrown this discussion in the
                                              mud
                                              > like a cheap tabloid.
                                              >
                                              > Ciao,
                                              > dupont
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:51:52 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...> writes:
                                              > > It is well known within the oil, mineral and timber industries
                                              that
                                              > > to successfully bid on a Gabon resource allocation, one must set
                                              > > aside 15% "commission" for Omar Bongo & Associates. If that isn't
                                              > > stealing from Gabon's treasury/people, what is?
                                              > >
                                              > > Re your statement, "intimidation and greed trumps democratic
                                              > > values", are you inferring that the US is the worst of the lot?
                                              > > Grant you that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and Wolfowitz are a
                                              > > intimidating/greedy/ lot but let's not make a saint out of Omar
                                              > > Bongo. He could teach Bush a thing or two on how to really play
                                              the
                                              > >
                                              > > intimidation and greedy game.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In gabondiscussion@yahoogroups.com, dupont3@j... wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Like I said before, I think this idea that President Bongo has
                                              > > stolen any
                                              > > > money from Gabon's treasury is ridiculous. Furthermore, your so-
                                              > > called
                                              > > > sources have no credibility since it is clear that the
                                              intended
                                              > >
                                              > > goal is
                                              > > > the destabilization of the region and leadership of Gabon.
                                              > > > Coming from a US citizen living in a country where political
                                              and
                                              > > > business corruption is rampant, you do not address in context
                                              the
                                              > > > hypocritical nature of your argument. You chose to support the
                                              > > > polarization of a peaceful and stable 3rd World African country
                                              > > rather
                                              > > > than focusing your energy on advocating fair development
                                              support
                                              > > and
                                              > > > investment from the Western world. Its as if having Peace Corps
                                              > > > volunteers running around the country is enough.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Is it any wonder then why African countries like Gabon have
                                              such
                                              > > a
                                              > > > difficult time at it? Rather than a "War on Terror" would not
                                              > > a "War on
                                              > > > Hypocrisy" solve many of these problems? Ya know, a war on the
                                              > > double
                                              > > > standards. Where one nation acts and then condemns the other
                                              for
                                              > > doing
                                              > > > the same. Where one society "smoke screens" its problems by
                                              > > ming
                                              > > > another. Where the largest propaganda machine in the world,
                                              > > condemns the
                                              > > > smallest. Where a society consumming 30% of the worlds
                                              resources
                                              > > shows
                                              > > > contempt for one reputed for preservation. Where intimidation
                                              and
                                              > >
                                              > > greed
                                              > > > trumps democratic values.You tell me which side needs the
                                              change
                                              > > in
                                              > > > leadership?
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Ciao,
                                              > > > dupont
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:39:39 -0000 "bobutne" <bobutne@a...>
                                              > > writes:
                                              > > > > Of course, the US and Western Europe continue to undermine
                                              the
                                              > > > > development of Africa by a variety of means not least is
                                              > > subsidizing
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > and dumping domestic commodities on the world market. The
                                              recent
                                              > >
                                              > > > > Cancun fiasco well points this out.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > However, Gabon produce nothing for export other than allows
                                              > > > > foreigners to extract their valuable/depleteable resources.
                                              > > > > According to sources, 15% of that wealth goes directly to
                                              Omar
                                              > > Bongo
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > & Friends.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Once Omar Bongo stops stealing the 15% and allows that money
                                              to
                                              > >
                                              > > go
                                              > > > > to the Gabonese national treasury, I'd hail him as much as
                                              you.
                                              > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                              > >
                                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > gabondiscussion-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.