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Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Top energy scientists agree, Bush wrong on alternative fuels

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  • Mark Garvey
    ... I don t want to get into a big political debate either, but I am very leery of proposing increasing taxes...particularly sin taxes ..because it is too
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 4, 2007
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      On 2/4/07, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > So, I advocate Carbon taxes, as I think they get to the root of the
      > matter. Others seem to disagree, thinking that imposing such taxes
      > raises the likelihood that we will not be offered alternatives.
      >

      I don't want to get into a big political debate either, but I am very leery
      of proposing increasing taxes...particularly "sin taxes"..because it is too
      much of a "you shouldn't do that, but you will do it anyway, so we might as
      well tax you." idea...this is what the "let's legalize Crack" people are
      doing. they say, "hell, people are using it AYWAY, let's tax it!"

      As far as perephal costs of cars go, those are hard to figure. the concrete
      numbers are bad enough. If you build a house or commercial building, you
      need to put in somwhere to stack the cars. In the USA there is more than
      one car per licensed driver already. (I Just saw some car people on the
      idiot box talking about it. they were moaning that they couldn't get any
      increase in growth becasue the market is sturated!) storage is a problem.
      Walking means a place to park your SHOES! Public access transit means that
      the vehicle is always moving and stored for short periods not the majority
      of it's time.

      I know there is a cost for public health and in the lack of exercise from
      basic stuff like walking and all, but how do you figure that? it is not
      quantifiable. Or at least not accurately.

      In all honesty, if I did not NEED a car for getting to and from work, I
      wouldn't have one. My Car costs me $300 a month in payments, and about $35
      a month in insurance. License is about $300 a year (a 2002 minivan) that
      is over $4000 JUST TO OWN IT! and it isn't a fancy car. Just a basic used
      Ford Minivan. this is not considering ANY costs such as oil changes or
      gas. I don't drive much so $15 a week. or $780 or so in gas, maybe $40-50
      for oil changes. So figure that I am driving a "decent" car, not a wreck
      and it is costing me close to $5000 a year without going into any sort of
      speculative figures! If you figure that out it comes to about $2.40 an HOUR
      of my paycheck that goes to my CAR! and that is before I start to figure in
      anything like car washes, or repairs or any additional expenses such as
      parking or tickets or other charges. Not many tolls to be figured here.


      There is no real need to run the cost UP! they are already up! and they
      will continue to GO up as long as people keep digging on cars!

      Meanwhile, I am making money off it really! I am working the Hotrod and
      Custom Car show in Monticello Iowa on Feb 24-25 doing my balloon animals and
      magic! If any of you are near by, c'mon DOWN! when are one of you clowns
      going to do a custom car powered by E_ motor or by Hydrogen or somehting?
      Let's see some COOL stuff eh? these car guys are interesting. I am trying
      to get them to let me bring my restored PPV up for the show. I see ALL
      SORTS of super powered cars, Chrome and all kinds of cool stuff, what I want
      to see is a CUSTOM conversion to ALL ELECTRIC, or SOLAR ELECTRIC or maybe a
      tiny hybrid! If I could get my act together, I would do a chop on my Honda
      125S motorcycle and turn it into a slick little 3 wheel commuter! It
      already gets 105 mpg...what do you think it would get with an aerodynamic
      body that is way down low and geared up to bring the RPM down at 50 mph?

      can you say "project"??/
      I knew you could!
      mark
      --
      Mark (Mr. WizWheelz!) Garvey
      Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!

      Check out the web site at:
      http://www.vine-ave.com

      contact us to have INVISIBLE INC! appear at your next program! Details at
      www.vine-ave.com

      Get on yer Trike and RIDE!


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • murdoch
      [Default] On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:13:54 -0600, Mark Garvey wrote: [...] ... Yes, I forgot these other important costs, and it figures on
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 4, 2007
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        [Default] On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:13:54 -0600, "Mark Garvey"
        <lazybee45@...> wrote:

        [...]

        >
        >In all honesty, if I did not NEED a car for getting to and from work, I
        >wouldn't have one. My Car costs me $300 a month in payments, and about $35
        >a month in insurance. License is about $300 a year (a 2002 minivan) that
        >is over $4000 JUST TO OWN IT! and it isn't a fancy car. Just a basic used
        >Ford Minivan. this is not considering ANY costs such as oil changes or
        >gas. I don't drive much so $15 a week. or $780 or so in gas, maybe $40-50
        >for oil changes. So figure that I am driving a "decent" car, not a wreck
        >and it is costing me close to $5000 a year without going into any sort of
        >speculative figures! If you figure that out it comes to about $2.40 an HOUR
        >of my paycheck that goes to my CAR! and that is before I start to figure in
        >anything like car washes, or repairs or any additional expenses such as
        >parking or tickets or other charges. Not many tolls to be figured here.
        >

        Yes, I forgot these other important costs, and it figures on our
        discussions of future transport. I don't now how I could have
        forgotten insurance..., and the many other costs, both large and
        small.

        One of the reasons to advocate trying alternative fuels and
        transportation systems is to evaluate if the vehicles will have lower
        "TCO" (Total Costs of Ownership). I think if a RAV4 EV is very
        reliable and durable, for example, (as many of them are proving to be,
        over their years of service since the early 2000s and still with a few
        hundred in the hands of individuals and fleet administrators) then its
        TCO, in some ways, is lower than that of a RAV4 IC-engined car. It
        does not require the same oil changes and may prove out to require
        lower costs in maintenance. I don't know. Evs have fewer moving
        parts than IC engine cars, and in some ways can require less
        maintenance, which costs both in time and money, than IC engine cars.
        Likewise, when we look at any alternatives, from Boron to
        compressed-air to Lithium batteries to biodiesel, I think one of the
        many many factors we should consider is TCO, which subsumes various
        costs.


        >There is no real need to run the cost UP! they are already up! and they
        >will continue to GO up as long as people keep digging on cars!
        >
        >Meanwhile, I am making money off it really! I am working the Hotrod and
        >Custom Car show in Monticello Iowa on Feb 24-25 doing my balloon animals and
        >magic! If any of you are near by, c'mon DOWN! when are one of you clowns
        >going to do a custom car powered by E_ motor or by Hydrogen or somehting?
        >Let's see some COOL stuff eh? these car guys are interesting. I am trying
        >to get them to let me bring my restored PPV up for the show. I see ALL
        >SORTS of super powered cars, Chrome and all kinds of cool stuff, what I want
        >to see is a CUSTOM conversion to ALL ELECTRIC, or SOLAR ELECTRIC or maybe a
        >tiny hybrid! If I could get my act together, I would do a chop on my Honda
        >125S motorcycle and turn it into a slick little 3 wheel commuter! It
        >already gets 105 mpg...what do you think it would get with an aerodynamic
        >body that is way down low and geared up to bring the RPM down at 50 mph?
        >
        >can you say "project"??/
        >I knew you could!
        >mark

        I am not a car guy nor knowledgeable about making the sort of project
        you sound into, but I do think we are closer to having a variety of
        vehicles around the US that embody some of what you are looking for.
        Just this week I spoke with Vectrix and they are closer to bringing
        their 63 mph NiMH 50 mile range (or some such) 2-wheeler to the US
        (i.e.: an electric motorcycle). This is not a project of the sort you
        describe, but I just thought I'd mention.
      • Mark Garvey
        ... I WAS a car guy. no longer.....but I still appreceate the work and interest put into them. Motorcyles too. The Vectrix sounds great! I would LOVE to
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 4, 2007
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          On 2/4/07, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > I am not a car guy nor knowledgeable about making the sort of project
          > you sound into, but I do think we are closer to having a variety of
          > vehicles around the US that embody some of what you are looking for.
          > Just this week I spoke with Vectrix and they are closer to bringing
          > their 63 mph NiMH 50 mile range (or some such) 2-wheeler to the US
          > (i.e.: an electric motorcycle). This is not a project of the sort you
          > describe, but I just thought I'd mention.
          >
          >
          I WAS a car guy. no longer.....but I still appreceate the work and interest
          put into them. Motorcyles too. The Vectrix sounds great! I would LOVE to
          see an Electric RAV4 at the car show! Or how about the one that was on
          Discovery Channel a few weeks back? an open wheel sports car that was
          sleek, sexy and drove like a Fomula 1. ALL ELECTRIC! no golf cart! it
          would do well into the "holy S#$T range!

          Believe it or not, THESE guys would appreceate the future fuels and vehicles
          more than your average Joe Coffee cup! you tell a hot riod guy about a car
          that doesn't need an oil change ....ever... and doesn't need $3 a gallon (or
          higher!) gas, and still will knock him back in the seat and looks cool to
          boot, and he will start stroking his chin and saying.."hmmmmmm.. y'know, I
          could put some metalflake on that....and a little chrome over there....."
          those guys are not dumb, and they are interested in CARS and VEHICLES. Yes,
          some are Gas freaks. but they also know reality when they see it. that is
          why they are so defensive about it. they love their cars. they want to
          keep them, and preserve them. But they appreceate craftsmanship and
          innovation! these are, after all, the guys who pioneered things like dual
          exhausts and mag wheels (higher flow, more efficiency, lighter weight, all
          things you NEED for better "performance") to many of these guys,
          "performance" means speed and power. but many of the same things that give
          more speed, also can give better economy as well. they are looking for more
          efficiency. well, so are we! Our goals and theirs are not different at all
          except in detail!

          Mark (Mr. WizWheelz!) Garvey
          Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!

          Check out the web site at:
          http://www.vine-ave.com

          contact us to have INVISIBLE INC! appear at your next program! Details at
          www.vine-ave.com

          Get on yer Trike and RIDE!


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • csceadraham
          ... http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/future-fuels-and-vehicles/message/8800 ... More like, You shouldn t do that, but we re taxing it, so you will do it or
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 4, 2007
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            --- In
            http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/future-fuels-and-vehicles/message/8800
            "Mark Garvey" <lazybee45@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 2/4/07, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > So, I advocate Carbon taxes, as I think they get to the root
            > > of the matter. Others seem to disagree, thinking that imposing
            > > such taxes
            > > raises the likelihood that we will not be offered alternatives.
            > >
            >
            > I don't want to get into a big political debate either,
            > but I am very leery of proposing increasing taxes...
            > particularly "sin taxes"..because it is too
            > much of a "you shouldn't do that, but you will do it anyway,
            > so we might as well tax you." idea...

            More like, "You shouldn't do that, but we're taxing it,
            so you will do it or find your life becoming very awkward",
            where "it" might be, for instance, speeding on the highway,
            or building fossil-fired baseload electrical power stations.

            Murdoch's point about not being offered alternatives is,
            I think, not quite right. Oil-taxing governments *do*
            offer alternatives, and somehow they never work out.


            --- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen-energy fan
            http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html :
            how motoring gains nuclear cachet
          • murdoch
            [Default] On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:25:36 -0600, Mark Garvey ... I have said and will say again: we need to get the mod shops and other car guys interested,
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 4, 2007
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              [Default] On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:25:36 -0600, "Mark Garvey"
              <lazybee45@...> wrote:

              >I WAS a car guy. no longer.....but I still appreceate the work and interest
              >put into them. Motorcyles too. The Vectrix sounds great! I would LOVE to
              >see an Electric RAV4 at the car show! Or how about the one that was on
              >Discovery Channel a few weeks back? an open wheel sports car that was
              >sleek, sexy and drove like a Fomula 1. ALL ELECTRIC! no golf cart! it
              >would do well into the "holy S#$T range!
              >
              >Believe it or not, THESE guys would appreceate the future fuels and vehicles
              >more than your average Joe Coffee cup! you tell a hot riod guy about a car
              >that doesn't need an oil change ....ever... and doesn't need $3 a gallon (or
              >higher!) gas, and still will knock him back in the seat and looks cool to
              >boot, and he will start stroking his chin and saying.."hmmmmmm.. y'know, I
              >could put some metalflake on that....and a little chrome over there....."
              >those guys are not dumb, and they are interested in CARS and VEHICLES. Yes,
              >some are Gas freaks. but they also know reality when they see it. that is
              >why they are so defensive about it. they love their cars. they want to
              >keep them, and preserve them. But they appreceate craftsmanship and
              >innovation! these are, after all, the guys who pioneered things like dual
              >exhausts and mag wheels (higher flow, more efficiency, lighter weight, all
              >things you NEED for better "performance") to many of these guys,
              >"performance" means speed and power. but many of the same things that give
              >more speed, also can give better economy as well. they are looking for more
              >efficiency. well, so are we! Our goals and theirs are not different at all
              >except in detail!

              I have said and will say again: we need to get the mod shops and other
              car guys interested, particularly as regards modifying conventional
              hybrids to make PHEVs.

              Here is the CalCars site, the not-for-profit which went to so much
              trouble to modify a Prius to make a PHEV and show that it could be
              done. I think they'd be glad to help steer car guys toward
              information as to how to duplicate some of this work:

              http://www.calcars.org/

              Here are six EVs with performance (acceleration) or other
              characteristics that might intrigue various traditional car folks. A
              couple of them are for sale in limited ways (expensive). The Vectrix
              will be comparatively affordable, though not having the super-fast
              performance of a fast motorcycle.

              1. Wrightspeed X1: (0-60 in 3.07 sec)
              http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html

              2. AC Propulsion tzero prototype (0-60 3.6 seconds)
              http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
              pictures defeating Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette:
              http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/track1.htm

              3. Tesla Roadster(0-60 about 4 seconds)
              (redline at 13,500 rpm... heh....)
              http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/specs.php

              4. Tango: (0-60 about 4 seconds)
              http://www.commutercars.com/
              (here's a video):
              http://www.commutercars.com/theater.html

              5. AC Propulsion eBox (0-60 about 7 seconds)
              (seats 5)
              http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/specifications.htm

              6. Vectrix Maxi-Cycle (0-60 8.2 seconds)
              http://www.vectrix.com/
              (marketing video at the top of this page):
              http://www.vectrix.com/default.aspx?portal=1&page=29








              >
              >Mark (Mr. WizWheelz!) Garvey
              >Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!
              >
              >Check out the web site at:
              >http://www.vine-ave.com
              >
              >contact us to have INVISIBLE INC! appear at your next program! Details at
              >www.vine-ave.com
              >
              > Get on yer Trike and RIDE!
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mark Garvey
              The Wrightspeed is the car I was thinking of. it is FAST, beautiful and nimble. It goes COMPLETELY against the steriotype of a golf cart car. Hot rod
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 4, 2007
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                The Wrightspeed is the car I was thinking of. it is FAST, beautiful and
                nimble. It goes COMPLETELY against the steriotype of a "golf cart" car.
                Hot rod nuts would LOVE that one!

                mark

                On 2/4/07, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > 1. Wrightspeed X1: (0-60 in 3.07 sec)
                > http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html
                >
                > 2. AC Propulsion tzero prototype (0-60 3.6 seconds)
                > http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
                > pictures defeating Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette:
                > http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/track1.htm
                >
                > 3. Tesla Roadster(0-60 about 4 seconds)
                > (redline at 13,500 rpm... heh....)
                > http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/specs.php
                >
                > 4. Tango: (0-60 about 4 seconds)
                > http://www.commutercars.com/
                > (here's a video):
                > http://www.commutercars.com/theater.html
                >
                > 5. AC Propulsion eBox (0-60 about 7 seconds)
                > (seats 5)
                > http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/specifications.htm
                >
                > 6. Vectrix Maxi-Cycle (0-60 8.2 seconds)
                > http://www.vectrix.com/
                > (marketing video at the top of this page):
                > http://www.vectrix.com/default.aspx?portal=1&page=29
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >
                > >Mark (Mr. WizWheelz!) Garvey
                > >Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!
                > >
                > >Check out the web site at:
                > >http://www.vine-ave.com
                > >
                > >contact us to have INVISIBLE INC! appear at your next program! Details
                > at
                > >www.vine-ave.com
                > >
                > > Get on yer Trike and RIDE!
                > >
                > >
                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Mark (Mr. WizWheelz!) Garvey
                Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!

                Check out the web site at:
                http://www.vine-ave.com

                contact us to have INVISIBLE INC! appear at your next program! Details at
                www.vine-ave.com

                Get on yer Trike and RIDE!


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • murdoch
                Yes, that car stands out.... taking advantage of power-to-weight ratio and to heck with trying to create a sedan with luxuries. Perhaps part of the issue is
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 4, 2007
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                  Yes, that car stands out.... taking advantage of power-to-weight ratio
                  and to heck with trying to create a sedan with luxuries.

                  Perhaps part of the issue is that some folks find it fun to think
                  "mechanistically", and so they are gearheads, and some of them are not
                  yet adjusted to thinking in terms of Watts and Amps and so forth? I
                  think the models below, and others, will provide some pause and maybe
                  an impetus to get interested, for some.


                  [Default] On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:52:38 -0600, "Mark Garvey"
                  <lazybee45@...> wrote:

                  >The Wrightspeed is the car I was thinking of. it is FAST, beautiful and
                  >nimble. It goes COMPLETELY against the steriotype of a "golf cart" car.
                  >Hot rod nuts would LOVE that one!
                  >
                  >mark
                  >
                  >On 2/4/07, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> 1. Wrightspeed X1: (0-60 in 3.07 sec)
                  >> http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html
                  >>
                  >> 2. AC Propulsion tzero prototype (0-60 3.6 seconds)
                  >> http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
                  >> pictures defeating Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette:
                  >> http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/track1.htm
                  >>
                  >> 3. Tesla Roadster(0-60 about 4 seconds)
                  >> (redline at 13,500 rpm... heh....)
                  >> http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/specs.php
                  >>
                  >> 4. Tango: (0-60 about 4 seconds)
                  >> http://www.commutercars.com/
                  >> (here's a video):
                  >> http://www.commutercars.com/theater.html
                  >>
                  >> 5. AC Propulsion eBox (0-60 about 7 seconds)
                  >> (seats 5)
                  >> http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/specifications.htm
                  >>
                  >> 6. Vectrix Maxi-Cycle (0-60 8.2 seconds)
                  >> http://www.vectrix.com/
                  >> (marketing video at the top of this page):
                  >> http://www.vectrix.com/default.aspx?portal=1&page=29
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> >
                  >> >Mark (Mr. WizWheelz!) Garvey
                  >> >Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!
                  >> >
                  >> >Check out the web site at:
                  >> >http://www.vine-ave.com
                  >> >
                  >> >contact us to have INVISIBLE INC! appear at your next program! Details
                  >> at
                  >> >www.vine-ave.com
                  >> >
                  >> > Get on yer Trike and RIDE!
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                • Mark Garvey
                  The Vectrix looks a lot like the Helix, which is/was one of the more interesting motorcycles that I owned in a long line of motorcycle ownership. Nice bike.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 4, 2007
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                    The Vectrix looks a lot like the Helix, which is/was one of the more
                    interesting motorcycles that I owned in a long line of motorcycle
                    ownership. Nice bike. good looks Perfect adaptation of the electric
                    concept!

                    mark

                    On 2/4/07, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes, that car stands out.... taking advantage of power-to-weight ratio
                    > and to heck with trying to create a sedan with luxuries.
                    >
                    > Perhaps part of the issue is that some folks find it fun to think
                    > "mechanistically", and so they are gearheads, and some of them are not
                    > yet adjusted to thinking in terms of Watts and Amps and so forth? I
                    > think the models below, and others, will provide some pause and maybe
                    > an impetus to get interested, for some.
                    >
                    >
                    > [Default] On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:52:38 -0600, "Mark Garvey"
                    > <lazybee45@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >The Wrightspeed is the car I was thinking of. it is FAST, beautiful and
                    > >nimble. It goes COMPLETELY against the steriotype of a "golf cart" car.
                    > >Hot rod nuts would LOVE that one!
                    > >
                    > >mark
                    > >
                    > >On 2/4/07, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> 1. Wrightspeed X1: (0-60 in 3.07 sec)
                    > >> http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html
                    > >>
                    > >> 2. AC Propulsion tzero prototype (0-60 3.6 seconds)
                    > >> http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
                    > >> pictures defeating Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette:
                    > >> http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/track1.htm
                    > >>
                    > >> 3. Tesla Roadster(0-60 about 4 seconds)
                    > >> (redline at 13,500 rpm... heh....)
                    > >> http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/specs.php
                    > >>
                    > >> 4. Tango: (0-60 about 4 seconds)
                    > >> http://www.commutercars.com/
                    > >> (here's a video):
                    > >> http://www.commutercars.com/theater.html
                    > >>
                    > >> 5. AC Propulsion eBox (0-60 about 7 seconds)
                    > >> (seats 5)
                    > >> http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/specifications.htm
                    > >>
                    > >> 6. Vectrix Maxi-Cycle (0-60 8.2 seconds)
                    > >> http://www.vectrix.com/
                    > >> (marketing video at the top of this page):
                    > >> http://www.vectrix.com/default.aspx?portal=1&page=29
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >> >Mark (Mr. WizWheelz!) Garvey
                    > >> >Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!
                    > >> >
                    > >> >Check out the web site at:
                    > >> >http://www.vine-ave.com
                    > >> >
                    > >> >contact us to have INVISIBLE INC! appear at your next
                    > program! Details
                    > >> at
                    > >> >www.vine-ave.com
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Get on yer Trike and RIDE!
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Mark (Mr. WizWheelz!) Garvey
                    Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!

                    Check out the web site at:
                    http://www.vine-ave.com

                    contact us to have INVISIBLE INC! appear at your next program! Details at
                    www.vine-ave.com

                    Get on yer Trike and RIDE!


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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