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Batteries

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  • billwicksted
    Hi, I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada and I am looking for 12v 17AH sealed AGM or Sealed lead acid batteries that can withstand being discharged completly
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 30, 2003
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      Hi,

      I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada and I am looking for 12v 17AH
      sealed AGM or Sealed lead acid batteries that can withstand being
      discharged completly then recharged over 500 times. The application
      is for an EV where the batteries are the source of power.

      I require prices FOB Toronto, Ontario, Canada

      Thanks,

      Bill Wicksted E-mail is billwicksted@... That's ca not com
    • Dave Goldstein
      On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:19:49 -0000 billwicksted ... This is a ridiculous request. Nobody in their right mind would use tiny 17ah
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1, 2003
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        On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:19:49 -0000 "billwicksted" <billwicksted@...>
        writes:
        > . . .
        > I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada and I am looking for 12v 17AH
        > sealed AGM or Sealed lead acid batteries that can withstand being
        > discharged completly then recharged over 500 times. The application
        > is for an EV where the batteries are the source of power.
        >
        > I require prices FOB Toronto, Ontario, Canada

        This is a ridiculous request. Nobody in
        their right mind would use tiny 17ah batteries
        in a street-driven EV, except perhaps in a
        very small scooter, pedal-assisted E-bike,
        or perhaps an electric wheelchair.

        And no one who understands batteries
        would attempt to *completely* discharge
        a Lead-Acid battery EVER -- let alone
        "over 500 times." This is not what they
        are designed for.

        If you truly want a battery to do that,
        then choose a *NiCad* -- and be
        absolutely sure that you have the
        proper type of charger for it (a lead-
        acid charger will damage a NiCad
        battery.)

        NiCads are not cheap, and unless
        you are prepared to order at least
        several dozen of these batteries --
        enough to fill a wooden "skid" or
        pallet -- it is not likely that anyone
        will send you a quote FOB Toronto
        or anyplace else.

        Your best bet is to look in your
        local Yellow Pages under "Batteries"
        or to search the Web for battery
        retailers who can provide you with
        the proper type of batteries for your
        application -- and the right type of
        charger for them.

        If these batteries are intended for a
        wheelchair, then you will need the
        dimensions of the battery tray,
        including the maximum height of
        the battery or batteries.

        The general rule of thumb for a
        traction battery used in heavy duty
        applications, is to find the highest
        amphour capacity that will fit, from
        a manufacturer with a good reputation
        for making reliable deep-cycle
        batteries.

        Unless you choose NiCad (or
        possibly NiMH), DO NOT deep
        discharge the batteries if you
        expect them to last!

        If you choose *sealed* Lead-Acid
        batteries, then be sure that your
        charger is designed for a sealed
        battery. If you are using a "regular"
        charger -- typically made for "flooded"
        or automotive style batteries, it will
        overcharge and shorten the life of
        your sealed Lead-Acid batteries
        considerably.

        Perhaps that is why you made
        such a request in the first place.

        Regards,

        Dave Goldstein
        President, EVA/DC and
        Program Development Associates
        Gaithersburg, MD

        --
      • Lee Dekker
        As daunting as the world energy situation is, there are numerous ways to address it and new methods are popping up each day. One reason for focusing on the
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 6, 2005
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          As daunting as the world energy situation is, there are numerous ways to address it and
          new methods are popping up each day. One reason for focusing on the transportation
          sector is the fact that this sector is currently almost completely dependent upon
          non-renewable energy sources.

          Biofuels will be one important part of the solution. But using electricity for world
          transportation will be the ultimate answer. Even biofuels will be much more practical
          and efficient when used in an electric drive vehicle. For pure electric vehicles and
          hybrid electric vehicles and plug electric hybrid vehicles, the key to success is the
          battery. Some may disagree with this and some may see this as blatantly obvious.

          If agreement can be reached that the battery is key to the success the future
          transportation, doesn't it make sense that the battery should be our primary focus?
          Although there are many who understand the importance of the battery, there is a general
          lack of understanding by the average citizen. I don't know how to go about correcting
          this lack of understanding, but it would be good to discuss the importance of doing so.



          __________________________________
          Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Yodda Pierce
          I couldn t agree more with what you state below. We are spending over $1 billion to research fuel cells, when affordable fuel cell cars are many years away.
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 6, 2005
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            I couldn't agree more with what you state below. We
            are spending over $1 billion to research fuel cells,
            when affordable fuel cell cars are many years away.
            Instead we should spend money to improve batteries and
            make them more affordable. This would be money well
            spent by our government, yet only a very small amount
            of money compared with fuel cell research is actually
            spent on battery research. I completely support your
            view that the battery should be the main focus in our
            research efforts.

            --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:

            > As daunting as the world energy situation is, there
            > are numerous ways to address it and
            > new methods are popping up each day. One reason for
            > focusing on the transportation
            > sector is the fact that this sector is currently
            > almost completely dependent upon
            > non-renewable energy sources.
            >
            > Biofuels will be one important part of the solution.
            > But using electricity for world
            > transportation will be the ultimate answer. Even
            > biofuels will be much more practical
            > and efficient when used in an electric drive
            > vehicle. For pure electric vehicles and
            > hybrid electric vehicles and plug electric hybrid
            > vehicles, the key to success is the
            > battery. Some may disagree with this and some may
            > see this as blatantly obvious.
            >
            > If agreement can be reached that the battery is key
            > to the success the future
            > transportation, doesn't it make sense that the
            > battery should be our primary focus?
            > Although there are many who understand the
            > importance of the battery, there is a general
            > lack of understanding by the average citizen. I
            > don't know how to go about correcting
            > this lack of understanding, but it would be good to
            > discuss the importance of doing so.
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >




            __________________________________
            Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          • Arcologic@aol.com
            Lee, got milk? Were you thinking of using an ET (electric truck) to haul your groceries? Or, how about the transporter that brings your EV from the factory?
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 7, 2005
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              Lee, got milk?

              Were you thinking of using an ET (electric truck) to haul your groceries?
              Or, how about the transporter that brings your EV from the factory?

              A huge share of transportation fuel goes to vehicles not suited for battery
              power. We need to continue research on more efficient and clean diesel
              engines, running on non-fossil fuel of course.

              An electric drive /motor behind the diesel engine might be a good
              improvement, don't know. For heavy duty trucks, another pressing need is some
              leadership toward better aerodynamic design.

              Ernie Rogers

              Lee said,

              Biofuels will be one important part of the solution.
              > But using electricity for world
              > transportation will be the ultimate answer. Even
              > biofuels will be much more practical
              > and efficient when used in an electric drive
              > vehicle.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lee Dekker
              All good points Ernie. To look at electric vehicles today, one would think they all have to be small and extremely ugly. Also looking at hybrids and plug-in
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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                All good points Ernie. To look at electric vehicles today, one would think they all have
                to be small and extremely ugly. Also looking at hybrids and plug-in hybrids gives the
                impression that we will always have an internal combustion engine in our vehicle. But
                predicting the future can make everyone look silly.

                For now, the plug-in hybrid looks like the best "vehicle" to blaze the trail to a pure
                electric vehicle. Biofuels definitely fit well with a plug in hybrid and hopefully we
                will see both these technologies blossom soon. With the history of battery electric
                vehicles, it's easy to understand why they seem limited to small marginal units. But
                every single limitation of the battery electric vehicle that I've been able to think of,
                all leads back to the battery. The next question one must ask oneself is, has battery
                technology already reached its zenith. If we listen to General Motors and others, this is
                the case. They claim that they've given up on the battery and have moved on to the
                hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is that they've given up on the electric
                vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is nothing but an electric vehicle
                that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.

                Possibly the battery has run up against a technological brick wall. Possibly General
                Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden agenda in their campaign to explain to
                us why they have given up on the battery electric vehicle. But while General Motors and
                US Car may have given up, others still have some hope for the battery. My belief is that
                battery technology is still in its infancy. Materials science along with growing need
                from all sectors of society may still produce some very pleasant and exciting battery
                technology surprises for us in the future.

                Why should a battery be any different than the gas tank? Why can't a battery be superior
                to a fuel tank? If the battery can be recharged in about the same amount of time it takes
                to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the biggest gripes. If the battery can be
                made to work in all weather conditions, another common gripe goes by the wayside. And if
                range can be achieved similar to that of liquid fuel vehicles, no one will have that to
                complain about. There or still cost and environmental and other issues to consider but I
                see no brick wall.

                Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery vehicle? What, other than our current
                perceptions or misperceptions makes something like this impossible. It's tough to twist
                our minds in new ways and as we predict the future were sure to look like fools at times.
                There is also a lot of inertia to break through, as with any new concept. The electric
                vehicle is generally understood to have certain characteristics. Even people who are
                usually up on the latest technologies and are knowledgeable about vehicles in particular
                will often hold some very incorrect views about electric vehicles. Battery electric
                trucks may still be a long way off but the view of all electric vehicles as being slugs
                on the road is about to be shattered.

                The Toyota Prius is a very neat car and has obviously made a huge splash. But a muscle
                car or a sports car it's not. But with the Lexus hybrid SUV we are seeing the beginnings
                of what electric drive can do to enhance performance. With the Lexus 450H, the perception
                of electric drive as being inherently slow will be confronted directly. It won't take too
                long for people to put two and two together and realize that electric motors are not only
                the best way but by far the fastest way to move the vehicle. As perceptions change, so
                will products. For now our best bet to help things move along is to promote the plug-in
                hybrid electric vehicle, "the gateway vehicle" as Murdoch has so cleverly put it. Beyond
                that we need to keep our minds open for much better things to come. Because electric
                motors are the best choice for powering big trucks for the same reasons they are the best
                choice for powering locomotives and other machinery. It's just a question of how we're
                going to get the electricity to them.


                --- Arcologic@... wrote:

                >
                > Lee, got milk?
                >
                > Were you thinking of using an ET (electric truck) to haul your groceries?
                > Or, how about the transporter that brings your EV from the factory?
                >
                > A huge share of transportation fuel goes to vehicles not suited for battery
                > power. We need to continue research on more efficient and clean diesel
                > engines, running on non-fossil fuel of course.
                >
                > An electric drive /motor behind the diesel engine might be a good
                > improvement, don't know. For heavy duty trucks, another pressing need is some
                > leadership toward better aerodynamic design.
                >
                > Ernie Rogers
                >
                > Lee said,
                >
                > Biofuels will be one important part of the solution.
                > > But using electricity for world
                > > transportation will be the ultimate answer. Even
                > > biofuels will be much more practical
                > > and efficient when used in an electric drive
                > > vehicle.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >





                __________________________________
                Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                http://mail.yahoo.com
              • murdoch
                ... Also, I think there is a bit of a grey area here, such as with Graham s Boron proposals, or others , or some of the more exotic technologies we hear about
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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                  >But
                  >every single limitation of the battery electric vehicle that I've been able to think of,
                  >all leads back to the battery. The next question one must ask oneself is, has battery
                  >technology already reached its zenith. If we listen to General Motors and others, this is
                  >the case. They claim that they've given up on the battery and have moved on to the
                  >hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is that they've given up on the electric
                  >vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is nothing but an electric vehicle
                  >that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.

                  Also, I think there is a bit of a grey area here, such as with
                  Graham's Boron proposals, or others', or some of the more exotic
                  technologies we hear about (which are probably only a taste of things
                  to come, in terms of breakthroughs we can't specifically predict but
                  can generally anticipate based on looking at the overall history and
                  potential of the new research). Over the last 15 years, just to give
                  an example, several companies have hinted at a "grey area" between
                  fuel cells and batteries, in terms of using some sort of zinc-based
                  scheme, to some extent "fueling up" but to some extent it is a
                  battery.

                  Likewise, another example is that zinc-air based batteries tend to
                  need to be "rebuilt" rather than recharged (I guess), but once fresh
                  in a vehicle they can power it and I do think there has been such a
                  thing as a zinc-air powered bus, with a scheme for rebuilding the
                  batteries back at the home base, though maybe it was only a hybrid.


                  >Possibly the battery has run up against a technological brick wall. Possibly General
                  >Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden agenda in their campaign to explain to
                  >us why they have given up on the battery electric vehicle. But while General Motors and
                  >US Car may have given up,

                  I thought that one of the interesting things about this week's news is
                  that GM is selling their stake in Fuji Heavy, a company which either
                  has battery tech and-or is collaborating with NEC, which has good
                  lithium battery tech (apparently) to produce a BEV. So, for the
                  second time in 10 years (their work with ECD and Ovonics being the
                  first time), GM is inexplicably moving aggressively away from
                  ownership and access to some of the very best large-format advanced
                  batteries on the planet.

                  >others still have some hope for the battery. My belief is that
                  >battery technology is still in its infancy.

                  To some extent, I tend to hope along the same lines... more room for
                  improvement there...

                  >Materials science along with growing need
                  >from all sectors of society may still produce some very pleasant and exciting battery
                  >technology surprises for us in the future.
                  >
                  >Why should a battery be any different than the gas tank? Why can't a battery be superior
                  >to a fuel tank?

                  I do think there is an issue here. Because of the nature of how our
                  world seems to be set up, the energy density of these liquid fuels
                  seems to be very high, and thus leads to such things as superior range
                  and such. I'm not sure if batteries as we know them can match up or
                  approach competing, on that score. That doesn't invalidate your
                  points (plenty of room for improvement with batteries, and even as
                  they are, they are in my view more than adequate for more
                  transportation purposes than seem to be generally allowed in press
                  reports).

                  >If the battery can be recharged in about the same amount of time it takes
                  >to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the biggest gripes. If the battery can be
                  >made to work in all weather conditions, another common gripe goes by the wayside. And if
                  >range can be achieved similar to that of liquid fuel vehicles, no one will have that to
                  >complain about. There or still cost and environmental and other issues to consider but I
                  >see no brick wall.
                  >
                  >Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery vehicle? What, other than our current
                  >perceptions or misperceptions makes something like this impossible. It's tough to twist
                  >our minds in new ways and as we predict the future were sure to look like fools at times.
                  >There is also a lot of inertia to break through, as with any new concept. The electric
                  >vehicle is generally understood to have certain characteristics. Even people who are
                  >usually up on the latest technologies and are knowledgeable about vehicles in particular
                  >will often hold some very incorrect views about electric vehicles. Battery electric
                  >trucks may still be a long way off but the view of all electric vehicles as being slugs
                  >on the road is about to be shattered.
                  >
                  >The Toyota Prius is a very neat car and has obviously made a huge splash. But a muscle
                  >car or a sports car it's not. But with the Lexus hybrid SUV we are seeing the beginnings
                  >of what electric drive can do to enhance performance. With the Lexus 450H, the perception
                  >of electric drive as being inherently slow will be confronted directly. It won't take too
                  >long for people to put two and two together and realize that electric motors are not only
                  >the best way but by far the fastest way to move the vehicle. As perceptions change, so
                  >will products. For now our best bet to help things move along is to promote the plug-in
                  >hybrid electric vehicle, "the gateway vehicle" as Murdoch has so cleverly put it. Beyond
                  >that we need to keep our minds open for much better things to come. Because electric
                  >motors are the best choice for powering big trucks for the same reasons they are the best
                  >choice for powering locomotives and other machinery. It's just a question of how we're
                  >going to get the electricity to them.
                  >
                  >
                  >--- Arcologic@... wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >> Lee, got milk?
                  >>
                  >> Were you thinking of using an ET (electric truck) to haul your groceries?
                  >> Or, how about the transporter that brings your EV from the factory?
                  >>
                  >> A huge share of transportation fuel goes to vehicles not suited for battery
                  >> power. We need to continue research on more efficient and clean diesel
                  >> engines, running on non-fossil fuel of course.
                  >>
                  >> An electric drive /motor behind the diesel engine might be a good
                  >> improvement, don't know. For heavy duty trucks, another pressing need is some
                  >> leadership toward better aerodynamic design.
                  >>
                  >> Ernie Rogers
                  >>
                  >> Lee said,
                  >>
                  >> Biofuels will be one important part of the solution.
                  >> > But using electricity for world
                  >> > transportation will be the ultimate answer. Even
                  >> > biofuels will be much more practical
                  >> > and efficient when used in an electric drive
                  >> > vehicle.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >__________________________________
                  >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                  >http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Paul Scott
                  Hi All, I m enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes, it s the crux of the matter. A while back, I asked a question to the EV lists about the theoretical limits
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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                    Hi All,

                    I'm enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes, it's the crux of the matter. A
                    while back, I asked a question to the EV lists about the theoretical limits
                    to batteries. I got several great responses, but William Kortoff's seemed to
                    be the best. I'm reprinting it below:

                    At 07:30 PM 3/29/2004, Paul Scott wrote:

                    A question for you engineers on the lists. This is a quote from "Power To
                    the People" by Vijay Waitheeswaran in a section on the battery electric
                    vehicle:

                    "The trouble is that battery systems are pushing the upper limits of
                    specific energy - the number of watt-hours they can store for a given
                    weight. The best that conventional batteries can achieve theoretically is
                    300 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), though most manage barely half that in
                    practice. That is nowhere near enough for the armed forces. The Pentagon has
                    said that it wants to deploy portable equipment loaded with energy-guzzling
                    features that would require up to 3100 Wh/kg by 2006. The physical
                    properties of batteries make it impossible for them to ever achieve such
                    goals."

                    His comments on the needs of the military notwithstanding, are his facts
                    and figures correct on the battery's theoretical limit? I had not heard of
                    such a limit and he doesn't explain it at all.

                    Paul Scott
                    310-399-5997
                    pscottvfx@...

                    This does remind me of gloom and doom anti-technology predictions from
                    the past. It is possible to know and calculate the theoretical maximum
                    energy from specific battery combinations---that's basic electrochemistry.

                    The theoretical limits of current batteries are actually much higher than
                    300 wh/kg. The basic reactants of lead acid imply a limit around 120
                    watt hours per kilogram, and actual batteries deliver 20 to 40 wh/kg.
                    At the other extreme, I believe the reactants of current lithium battery
                    chemistries imply a theoretical value around 1500-3000 wh/kg. The
                    difference between the theoretical and actual values results from the
                    weight of case, electrical conductors, separators, electrolyte, important
                    non-reactant ingredients, and reactants that don't get used.

                    Fifteen years ago, the best practical and known rechargeable batteries
                    delivered maybe 70 wh/kg. Today, commercial batteries are reaching
                    200 wh/kg. It is fair to argue on a technical basis that a specific
                    chemistry will have a definite practical performance limit. But new
                    combinations will continue to be developed in the future; I wouldn't
                    want to predict where things will go in the future. I certainly wouldn't
                    want to predict that technology won't improve beyond a certain point.

                    I can't see what practical applications would need 3000 wh/kg.


                    /wk


                    > All good points Ernie. To look at electric vehicles today, one would think
                    > they all have
                    > to be small and extremely ugly. Also looking at hybrids and plug-in
                    > hybrids gives the
                    > impression that we will always have an internal combustion engine in our
                    > vehicle. But
                    > predicting the future can make everyone look silly.
                    >
                    > For now, the plug-in hybrid looks like the best "vehicle" to blaze the
                    > trail to a pure
                    > electric vehicle. Biofuels definitely fit well with a plug in hybrid and
                    > hopefully we
                    > will see both these technologies blossom soon. With the history of battery
                    > electric
                    > vehicles, it's easy to understand why they seem limited to small marginal
                    > units. But
                    > every single limitation of the battery electric vehicle that I've been
                    > able to think of,
                    > all leads back to the battery. The next question one must ask oneself is,
                    > has battery
                    > technology already reached its zenith. If we listen to General Motors and
                    > others, this is
                    > the case. They claim that they've given up on the battery and have moved
                    > on to the
                    > hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is that they've given up on
                    > the electric
                    > vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is nothing but an
                    > electric vehicle
                    > that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.
                    >
                    > Possibly the battery has run up against a technological brick wall.
                    > Possibly General
                    > Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden agenda in their
                    > campaign to explain to
                    > us why they have given up on the battery electric vehicle. But while
                    > General Motors and
                    > US Car may have given up, others still have some hope for the battery. My
                    > belief is that
                    > battery technology is still in its infancy. Materials science along with
                    > growing need
                    > from all sectors of society may still produce some very pleasant and
                    > exciting battery
                    > technology surprises for us in the future.
                    >
                    > Why should a battery be any different than the gas tank? Why can't a
                    > battery be superior
                    > to a fuel tank? If the battery can be recharged in about the same amount
                    > of time it takes
                    > to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the biggest gripes. If the
                    > battery can be
                    > made to work in all weather conditions, another common gripe goes by the
                    > wayside. And if
                    > range can be achieved similar to that of liquid fuel vehicles, no one will
                    > have that to
                    > complain about. There or still cost and environmental and other issues to
                    > consider but I
                    > see no brick wall.
                    >
                    > Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery vehicle? What, other than our
                    > current
                    > perceptions or misperceptions makes something like this impossible. It's
                    > tough to twist
                    > our minds in new ways and as we predict the future were sure to look like
                    > fools at times.
                    > There is also a lot of inertia to break through, as with any new concept.
                    > The electric
                    > vehicle is generally understood to have certain characteristics. Even
                    > people who are
                    > usually up on the latest technologies and are knowledgeable about vehicles
                    > in particular
                    > will often hold some very incorrect views about electric vehicles. Battery
                    > electric
                    > trucks may still be a long way off but the view of all electric vehicles
                    > as being slugs
                    > on the road is about to be shattered.
                    >
                    > The Toyota Prius is a very neat car and has obviously made a huge splash.
                    > But a muscle
                    > car or a sports car it's not. But with the Lexus hybrid SUV we are seeing
                    > the beginnings
                    > of what electric drive can do to enhance performance. With the Lexus 450H,
                    > the perception
                    > of electric drive as being inherently slow will be confronted directly. It
                    > won't take too
                    > long for people to put two and two together and realize that electric
                    > motors are not only
                    > the best way but by far the fastest way to move the vehicle. As
                    > perceptions change, so
                    > will products. For now our best bet to help things move along is to
                    > promote the plug-in
                    > hybrid electric vehicle, "the gateway vehicle" as Murdoch has so cleverly
                    > put it. Beyond
                    > that we need to keep our minds open for much better things to come.
                    > Because electric
                    > motors are the best choice for powering big trucks for the same reasons
                    > they are the best
                    > choice for powering locomotives and other machinery. It's just a question
                    > of how we're
                    > going to get the electricity to them.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Arcologic@... wrote:
                  • Lee Dekker
                    The range issue does seem to be a sticking point, even with the most optimistic battery projections. But with this, as with all the other issues, we just don t
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The range issue does seem to be a sticking point, even with the most optimistic battery
                      projections. But with this, as with all the other issues, we just don't know. For
                      certain, liquid fuels are a wonderful way to provide power for vehicles, but an electric
                      motor is still the best way to get that power to the wheels. Electricity is also the best
                      way to power all the other vehicle functions including power steering, air conditioning,
                      breaks and of course the gauges, sound systems, windows, sunroofs, doors and who knows
                      what else.

                      One thing about electricity that is inherently different from liquid fuels is its
                      availability and its transportability. While there is a percentage of energy loss as
                      electricity travels through long transmission lines, this percentage is small compared to
                      the inefficiency of a tanker truck delivering liquid fuels and driving home empty. There
                      are pros and cons to both systems so it's likely both will be with us for quite some
                      time. Each has certain advantages that the other lacks. But no matter what fuel is used
                      to power the vehicle and its amenities, that fuel will need to be converted into
                      electricity to run certain vehicle functions.

                      Here are some things we can do with an electric vehicle that we will never be able to do
                      with the liquid only fueled vehicle.

                      Drive to your Aunt Mildred's, way out in the boonies, and fill your tank (battery) from
                      an outlet in her double-wide as you have tea.

                      Park your car in a miserably hot parking lot, leave it there most of the day, and come
                      back to a car with more fuel in it then when you parked it there. Not only that but come
                      back to a car that's nice and cool inside.

                      Come home from work, park your car in the garage, plug it in and go flop on the couch.
                      All without getting gasoline on your hands or spilling it on your clothes or shoes. And
                      without driving miles out of your way to find a station.

                      Drive your electric RV up to the Sierra, deploy your photovoltaic awning, enjoy hiking
                      the area for a few days and drive home with a full tank (battery).

                      Those are just a few of the differences that come to mind. There must be gobs more. And
                      none of this has touched on some of the other advantages of electric drive. Electricity
                      is simply more versatile. All aspects of electric drive including batteries open a new
                      world for vehicle designers.

                      This is not really a point to be argued. Things will happen as they happen and in a level
                      playing field the best option will win. Has there ever been a level playing field?
                      Probably not. So to repeat, the plug-in hybrid electric vehicle is probably the best area
                      of research in which to place our own personal energies. At the same time it wouldn't
                      hurt if we focused more specifically on the battery as key to achieving many of our
                      goals. At the present I don't see such a focus. We hear about conservation, wind
                      turbines, photovoltaics, biofuels and other essential schemes to achieve our energy
                      goals. But we rarely if ever hear a cry for more deliberate, vehicle battery research.
                      Hopefully that will change but in the meantime one thing we can do is try to keep an open
                      mind. And that in itself is a tall order.

                      --- murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:

                      > >But
                      > >every single limitation of the battery electric vehicle that I've been able to think
                      > of,
                      > >all leads back to the battery. The next question one must ask oneself is, has battery
                      > >technology already reached its zenith. If we listen to General Motors and others, this
                      > is
                      > >the case. They claim that they've given up on the battery and have moved on to the
                      > >hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is that they've given up on the electric
                      > >vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is nothing but an electric
                      > vehicle
                      > >that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.
                      >
                      > Also, I think there is a bit of a grey area here, such as with
                      > Graham's Boron proposals, or others', or some of the more exotic
                      > technologies we hear about (which are probably only a taste of things
                      > to come, in terms of breakthroughs we can't specifically predict but
                      > can generally anticipate based on looking at the overall history and
                      > potential of the new research). Over the last 15 years, just to give
                      > an example, several companies have hinted at a "grey area" between
                      > fuel cells and batteries, in terms of using some sort of zinc-based
                      > scheme, to some extent "fueling up" but to some extent it is a
                      > battery.
                      >
                      > Likewise, another example is that zinc-air based batteries tend to
                      > need to be "rebuilt" rather than recharged (I guess), but once fresh
                      > in a vehicle they can power it and I do think there has been such a
                      > thing as a zinc-air powered bus, with a scheme for rebuilding the
                      > batteries back at the home base, though maybe it was only a hybrid.
                      >
                      >
                      > >Possibly the battery has run up against a technological brick wall. Possibly General
                      > >Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden agenda in their campaign to explain
                      > to
                      > >us why they have given up on the battery electric vehicle. But while General Motors
                      > and
                      > >US Car may have given up,
                      >
                      > I thought that one of the interesting things about this week's news is
                      > that GM is selling their stake in Fuji Heavy, a company which either
                      > has battery tech and-or is collaborating with NEC, which has good
                      > lithium battery tech (apparently) to produce a BEV. So, for the
                      > second time in 10 years (their work with ECD and Ovonics being the
                      > first time), GM is inexplicably moving aggressively away from
                      > ownership and access to some of the very best large-format advanced
                      > batteries on the planet.
                      >
                      > >others still have some hope for the battery. My belief is that
                      > >battery technology is still in its infancy.
                      >
                      > To some extent, I tend to hope along the same lines... more room for
                      > improvement there...
                      >
                      > >Materials science along with growing need
                      > >from all sectors of society may still produce some very pleasant and exciting battery
                      > >technology surprises for us in the future.
                      > >
                      > >Why should a battery be any different than the gas tank? Why can't a battery be
                      > superior
                      > >to a fuel tank?
                      >
                      > I do think there is an issue here. Because of the nature of how our
                      > world seems to be set up, the energy density of these liquid fuels
                      > seems to be very high, and thus leads to such things as superior range
                      > and such. I'm not sure if batteries as we know them can match up or
                      > approach competing, on that score. That doesn't invalidate your
                      > points (plenty of room for improvement with batteries, and even as
                      > they are, they are in my view more than adequate for more
                      > transportation purposes than seem to be generally allowed in press
                      > reports).
                      >
                      > >If the battery can be recharged in about the same amount of time it takes
                      > >to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the biggest gripes. If the battery can
                      > be
                      > >made to work in all weather conditions, another common gripe goes by the wayside. And
                      > if
                      > >range can be achieved similar to that of liquid fuel vehicles, no one will have that
                      > to
                      > >complain about. There or still cost and environmental and other issues to consider but
                      > I
                      > >see no brick wall.
                      > >
                      > >Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery vehicle? What, other than our current
                      > >perceptions or misperceptions makes something like this impossible. It's tough to
                      > twist
                      > >our minds in new ways and as we predict the future were sure to look like fools at
                      > times.
                      > >There is also a lot of inertia to break through, as with any new concept. The electric
                      > >vehicle is generally understood to have certain characteristics. Even people who are
                      > >usually up on the latest technologies and are knowledgeable about vehicles in
                      > particular
                      > >will often hold some very incorrect views about electric vehicles. Battery electric
                      > >trucks may still be a long way off but the view of all electric vehicles as being
                      > slugs
                      > >on the road is about to be shattered.
                      > >
                      > >The Toyota Prius is a very neat car and has obviously made a huge splash. But a muscle
                      > >car or a sports car it's not. But with the Lexus hybrid SUV we are seeing the
                      > beginnings
                      > >of what electric drive can do to enhance performance. With the Lexus 450H, the
                      > perception
                      > >of electric drive as being inherently slow will be confronted directly. It won't take
                      > too
                      > >long for people to put two and two together and realize that electric motors are not
                      > only
                      > >the best way but by far the fastest way to move the vehicle. As perceptions change, so
                      > >will products. For now our best bet to help things move along is to promote the
                      > plug-in
                      > >hybrid electric vehicle, "the gateway vehicle" as Murdoch has so cleverly put it.
                      > Beyond
                      > >that we need to keep our minds open for much better things to come. Because electric
                      > >motors are the best choice for powering big trucks for the same reasons they are the
                      > best
                      > >choice for powering locomotives and other machinery. It's just a question of how we're
                      > >going to get the electricity to them.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >--- Arcologic@... wrote:
                      > >
                      > >>
                      > >> Lee, got milk?
                      > >>
                      > >> Were you thinking of using an ET (electric truck) to haul your groceries?
                      > >> Or, how about the transporter that brings your EV from the factory?
                      > >>
                      > >> A huge share of transportation fuel goes to vehicles not suited for battery
                      > >> power. We need to continue research on more efficient and clean diesel
                      > >> engines, running on non-fossil fuel of course.
                      > >>
                      > >> An electric drive /motor behind the diesel engine might be a good
                      > >> improvement, don't know. For heavy duty trucks, another pressing need is some
                      > >> leadership toward better aerodynamic design.
                      > >>
                      > >> Ernie Rogers
                      > >>
                      > >> Lee said,
                      > >>
                      > >> Biofuels will be one important part of the solution.
                      > >> > But using electricity for world
                      > >> > transportation will be the ultimate answer. Even
                      > >> > biofuels will be much more practical
                      > >> > and efficient when used in an electric drive
                      > >> > vehicle.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >__________________________________
                      > >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                      > >http://mail.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >





                      __________________________________
                      Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                    • murdoch
                      ... To some extent, I think some of the stumbling-in-the-dark we are doing in trying to bring ourselves up to speed on batteries is not just how fast this
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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                        On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:57:14 -0800, you wrote:

                        >Hi All,
                        >
                        >I'm enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes, it's the crux of the matter. A
                        >while back, I asked a question to the EV lists about the theoretical limits
                        >to batteries. I got several great responses, but William Kortoff's seemed to
                        >be the best. I'm reprinting it below:

                        To some extent, I think some of the stumbling-in-the-dark we are doing
                        in trying to bring ourselves up to speed on batteries is not just how
                        fast this nascient industry is moving, or can move, but also that we
                        live in these bizarre times where, taken as a whole, our (U.S.)
                        country's industries and media and government and some populace are
                        resisting progress and enlightenment when it comes to technologies
                        that can help obsolete our oil addictions.

                        That said, these wh/kg barriers are something we should definitely
                        discuss more. I wish I knew more, such as by attending a conference
                        that could help bring me up to date.

                        One somewhat-outdated-but-perhaps-still-slightly-useful perspective is
                        available as part of this group's files here:

                        http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UDNIQ2Uq-xds56Ka3XB-eGWKsEpr40RSp13PpAaOyxnmO4RkcPoiUH4rwG2fYeEBZsV_FshNUWECFqmcaLJV/EV%20%20Documents/btapsum.pdf

                        Note that it was prepared for CARB in 2000, and as it ages, it's
                        interesting to look back on it, as something you've sort of paid-for,
                        and see how its conclusions hold up.

                        A top industry person mentioned to me one of these thresh-holds, I
                        think it was 300 wh/kg for Lithium based batteries, in terms of trying
                        to devise aerial vehicles. It's been far too long since I looked at
                        relevant charts (I'm sure others will come up with some good links for
                        us) but as we continue to make the reasonably-expected-progress on
                        better "advanced" batteries, these previously-difficult numbers start
                        to look perhaps reachable. If we go back a few years, it always
                        seemed like there was a "catch" to the batteries with better energy
                        density per unit mass.

                        William responds to you:

                        >I can't see what practical applications would need 3000 wh/kg.

                        How about "any"? Isn't there some famous quote from Bill Gates not
                        seeing how anyone would need more than 640K of RAM?

                        If we specifically look at the aerial applications issue, and how the
                        US Military has apparently gone somewhat out of its way to deal with a
                        more advanced battery such as Aerotech's, we can see how the energy
                        per unit mass issue becomes critical and nearly impossible to put
                        limits on the benefits of improving the number. If we ever want to
                        dare to think of moving some aviation away from the present
                        technology, we'll need to think big with a lot of different
                        technologies, not just batteries (and let's not forget that ACP's
                        Li-Ion tzero came about in part due to batteries that were being used
                        by model airplane enthusiasts).

                        Since weight is such a critical element in getting better mileage with
                        vehicles, I think any improvements we can make in weight with
                        batteries are something I look for.

                        When I hear "zinc-air", even though I don't think they're always
                        rechargeable so much as "rebuildable", I think that maybe some of the
                        "fuel" is being carried outside the vehicle itself (just as an IC
                        engine uses mass that is from outside (Oxygen combusted with
                        gasoline).

                        With conventional vehicles, the fuel weighs something (6-8 pounds per
                        gallon?) and the powertrain weighs something. Manufacturers have been
                        in earnest seeking powertrain weight improvements and generally
                        nowadays advanced engines often seem to incorporate some sort of
                        aluminum alloy. Likewise, the non-powertrain-relevant aspects of the
                        car also employ weight-saving measures in some more advanced cars. One
                        car that stood out about 10 years ago was the original Acura (Honda)
                        NSX in terms of its use of Aluminum in the frame, and not just in some
                        more conventional areas. Likewise, some of the recent public-policy
                        organizations, that are pushing for better-mileage vehicles in terms
                        of how they can help us all on various fronts, have started mentioning
                        such issues as bringing more carbon-fiber focus to bear and lowering
                        the weight of vehicles.

                        When I think of the specific-energy-by-mass limitations on batteries,
                        I think about the challenge of creating a charge differential and
                        holding it and then delivering current to power something. A certain
                        number of protons and neutrons would appear to be necessary and so it
                        has always seemed somewhat logical that a Lithium-based approach
                        (incorporating a lighter-weight element) might hold promise for saving
                        weight. Obviously, we're going to go through a lot more innovation
                        than that over the next few centuries in this field and others that
                        are related.

                        Maybe we should think about developing some of our own data, if none
                        is conveniently available, though surely there must be some good stuff
                        around. Just for the heck of it, I'd be curious to see how mechanical
                        springs stack up (yes, mechanical springs), as well as some of the
                        other technologies that some group participants often ask that we not
                        leave out of the discussion, such as compressed air, hydraulic energy
                        storage, boron, Hydrogen (there must be some fans amongst us) etc.
                        Some of these are conventional "fuel-users" though, whereas with a
                        battery or a spring or something, the onboard-mass does not change as
                        the vehicle is fueled-up or down.

                        I guess my last thought for now is that at some point one of the
                        better Lithium cars was mentioned as storing 50 kWh and this is a lot.
                        That's still less than half a gallon of gasoline, in terms of energy
                        content, or maybe about 25 times less than what we might find in an 11
                        gallon fuel tank. I agree with absolutely not shutting the door on
                        making progress in this area, but it is useful to know what we are up
                        against.
                      • Yodda Pierce
                        I just wanted to answer your last question here. Perhaps your question was rhetorical, but you asked what applications would require 3000 Wh/Kg. My thought
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 9, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I just wanted to answer your last question here.
                          Perhaps your question was rhetorical, but you asked
                          what applications would require 3000 Wh/Kg. My
                          thought would be like military vehicles like tanks,
                          amphibious assault vehicles, aircraft, commercial and
                          military, perhaps trucks. Those are a few I can think
                          of. The advantage would be if we had a battery with
                          this type of energy, fuel cells would not be needed
                          due to their high cost. Then all the resources could
                          focus on batteries and the result would be to get a
                          high output EV batery available to the public. The
                          problem right now seems not to be that we do not have
                          a battery that meet the criteria for electric
                          vehicles, but rather that the cost for such a battery
                          pack is very expensive making the electric vehicle
                          50-100% more than the cost of the ICE vehicle.
                          Therefore, additional resources need to be spent not
                          only to improve battery technology, but rather to
                          improve production methodologies to make these
                          advanced battery chemistries affordable in a EV pack.
                          The lowest cost I could find for a 30 Kwh battery pack
                          was from a company called Thunder Sky in China. It
                          was about $15,000-20,000 which was a decrease of
                          $80,000 from the $100,000 price tag for a similar
                          lithium polymer battery from 3M. Hopefully we can see
                          the prices fall to $1000-$5000 range in the future and
                          we can then see the BEV become very close to the price
                          of the ICE car and have similar range. Of course new
                          battery technologes still need to be considered,
                          however we are now in th e position where existing
                          technology can produce a low weight, high power output
                          EV battery pack. We just need to get the price down.



                          --- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@...> wrote:

                          > Hi All,
                          >
                          > I'm enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes, it's the
                          > crux of the matter. A
                          > while back, I asked a question to the EV lists about
                          > the theoretical limits
                          > to batteries. I got several great responses, but
                          > William Kortoff's seemed to
                          > be the best. I'm reprinting it below:
                          >
                          > At 07:30 PM 3/29/2004, Paul Scott wrote:
                          >
                          > A question for you engineers on the lists. This is
                          > a quote from "Power To
                          > the People" by Vijay Waitheeswaran in a section on
                          > the battery electric
                          > vehicle:
                          >
                          > "The trouble is that battery systems are pushing
                          > the upper limits of
                          > specific energy - the number of watt-hours they can
                          > store for a given
                          > weight. The best that conventional batteries can
                          > achieve theoretically is
                          > 300 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), though most
                          > manage barely half that in
                          > practice. That is nowhere near enough for the armed
                          > forces. The Pentagon has
                          > said that it wants to deploy portable equipment
                          > loaded with energy-guzzling
                          > features that would require up to 3100 Wh/kg by
                          > 2006. The physical
                          > properties of batteries make it impossible for them
                          > to ever achieve such
                          > goals."
                          >
                          > His comments on the needs of the military
                          > notwithstanding, are his facts
                          > and figures correct on the battery's theoretical
                          > limit? I had not heard of
                          > such a limit and he doesn't explain it at all.
                          >
                          > Paul Scott
                          > 310-399-5997
                          > pscottvfx@...
                          >
                          > This does remind me of gloom and doom
                          > anti-technology predictions from
                          > the past. It is possible to know and calculate the
                          > theoretical maximum
                          > energy from specific battery combinations---that's
                          > basic electrochemistry.
                          >
                          > The theoretical limits of current batteries are
                          > actually much higher than
                          > 300 wh/kg. The basic reactants of lead acid imply a
                          > limit around 120
                          > watt hours per kilogram, and actual batteries
                          > deliver 20 to 40 wh/kg.
                          > At the other extreme, I believe the reactants of
                          > current lithium battery
                          > chemistries imply a theoretical value around
                          > 1500-3000 wh/kg. The
                          > difference between the theoretical and actual values
                          > results from the
                          > weight of case, electrical conductors, separators,
                          > electrolyte, important
                          > non-reactant ingredients, and reactants that don't
                          > get used.
                          >
                          > Fifteen years ago, the best practical and known
                          > rechargeable batteries
                          > delivered maybe 70 wh/kg. Today, commercial
                          > batteries are reaching
                          > 200 wh/kg. It is fair to argue on a technical basis
                          > that a specific
                          > chemistry will have a definite practical performance
                          > limit. But new
                          > combinations will continue to be developed in the
                          > future; I wouldn't
                          > want to predict where things will go in the future.
                          > I certainly wouldn't
                          > want to predict that technology won't improve beyond
                          > a certain point.
                          >
                          > I can't see what practical applications would need
                          > 3000 wh/kg.
                          >
                          >
                          > /wk
                          >
                          >
                          > > All good points Ernie. To look at electric
                          > vehicles today, one would think
                          > > they all have
                          > > to be small and extremely ugly. Also looking at
                          > hybrids and plug-in
                          > > hybrids gives the
                          > > impression that we will always have an internal
                          > combustion engine in our
                          > > vehicle. But
                          > > predicting the future can make everyone look
                          > silly.
                          > >
                          > > For now, the plug-in hybrid looks like the best
                          > "vehicle" to blaze the
                          > > trail to a pure
                          > > electric vehicle. Biofuels definitely fit well
                          > with a plug in hybrid and
                          > > hopefully we
                          > > will see both these technologies blossom soon.
                          > With the history of battery
                          > > electric
                          > > vehicles, it's easy to understand why they seem
                          > limited to small marginal
                          > > units. But
                          > > every single limitation of the battery electric
                          > vehicle that I've been
                          > > able to think of,
                          > > all leads back to the battery. The next question
                          > one must ask oneself is,
                          > > has battery
                          > > technology already reached its zenith. If we
                          > listen to General Motors and
                          > > others, this is
                          > > the case. They claim that they've given up on the
                          > battery and have moved
                          > > on to the
                          > > hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is
                          > that they've given up on
                          > > the electric
                          > > vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell
                          > vehicle is nothing but an
                          > > electric vehicle
                          > > that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.
                          > >
                          > > Possibly the battery has run up against a
                          > technological brick wall.
                          > > Possibly General
                          > > Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden
                          > agenda in their
                          > > campaign to explain to
                          > > us why they have given up on the battery electric
                          > vehicle. But while
                          > > General Motors and
                          > > US Car may have given up, others still have some
                          > hope for the battery. My
                          > > belief is that
                          > > battery technology is still in its infancy.
                          > Materials science along with
                          > > growing need
                          > > from all sectors of society may still produce some
                          > very pleasant and
                          > > exciting battery
                          > > technology surprises for us in the future.
                          > >
                          > > Why should a battery be any different than the gas
                          > tank? Why can't a
                          > > battery be superior
                          > > to a fuel tank? If the battery can be recharged in
                          > about the same amount
                          > > of time it takes
                          > > to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the
                          > biggest gripes. If the
                          > > battery can be
                          > > made to work in all weather conditions, another
                          > common gripe goes by the
                          > > wayside. And if
                          > > range can be achieved similar to that of liquid
                          > fuel vehicles, no one will
                          > > have that to
                          > > complain about. There or still cost and
                          > environmental and other issues to
                          > > consider but I
                          > > see no brick wall.
                          > >
                          > > Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery
                          > vehicle? What, other than our
                          > > current
                          > > perceptions or misperceptions makes something like
                          > this impossible. It's
                          > > tough to twist
                          > > our minds in new ways and as we predict the future
                          > were sure to look like
                          > > fools at times.
                          > > There is also a lot of inertia to break through,
                          > as with any new concept.
                          > > The electric
                          > > vehicle is generally understood to have certain
                          > characteristics. Even
                          > > people who are
                          > > usually up on the latest technologies and are
                          > knowledgeable about vehicles
                          > > in particular
                          > > will often hold some very incorrect views about
                          > electric vehicles. Battery
                          > > electric
                          > > trucks may still be a long way off but the view of
                          > all electric vehicles
                          > > as being slugs
                          > > on the road is about to be shattered.
                          >
                          === message truncated ===





                          __________________________________
                          Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                          http://mail.yahoo.com
                        • Scott Provost
                          Who at Thunder Sky did you talk to to get pricing? Do they have a US dealer or english web site? Valence is around $1.50 a wh.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 14, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Who at Thunder Sky did you talk to to get pricing? Do they have a US
                            dealer or english web site? Valence is around $1.50 a wh.

                            --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Yodda Pierce <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I just wanted to answer your last question here.
                            > Perhaps your question was rhetorical, but you asked
                            > what applications would require 3000 Wh/Kg. My
                            > thought would be like military vehicles like tanks,
                            > amphibious assault vehicles, aircraft, commercial and
                            > military, perhaps trucks. Those are a few I can think
                            > of. The advantage would be if we had a battery with
                            > this type of energy, fuel cells would not be needed
                            > due to their high cost. Then all the resources could
                            > focus on batteries and the result would be to get a
                            > high output EV batery available to the public. The
                            > problem right now seems not to be that we do not have
                            > a battery that meet the criteria for electric
                            > vehicles, but rather that the cost for such a battery
                            > pack is very expensive making the electric vehicle
                            > 50-100% more than the cost of the ICE vehicle.
                            > Therefore, additional resources need to be spent not
                            > only to improve battery technology, but rather to
                            > improve production methodologies to make these
                            > advanced battery chemistries affordable in a EV pack.
                            > The lowest cost I could find for a 30 Kwh battery pack
                            > was from a company called Thunder Sky in China. It
                            > was about $15,000-20,000 which was a decrease of
                            > $80,000 from the $100,000 price tag for a similar
                            > lithium polymer battery from 3M. Hopefully we can see
                            > the prices fall to $1000-$5000 range in the future and
                            > we can then see the BEV become very close to the price
                            > of the ICE car and have similar range. Of course new
                            > battery technologes still need to be considered,
                            > however we are now in th e position where existing
                            > technology can produce a low weight, high power output
                            > EV battery pack. We just need to get the price down.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@e...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Hi All,
                            > >
                            > > I'm enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes, it's the
                            > > crux of the matter. A
                            > > while back, I asked a question to the EV lists about
                            > > the theoretical limits
                            > > to batteries. I got several great responses, but
                            > > William Kortoff's seemed to
                            > > be the best. I'm reprinting it below:
                            > >
                            > > At 07:30 PM 3/29/2004, Paul Scott wrote:
                            > >
                            > > A question for you engineers on the lists. This is
                            > > a quote from "Power To
                            > > the People" by Vijay Waitheeswaran in a section on
                            > > the battery electric
                            > > vehicle:
                            > >
                            > > "The trouble is that battery systems are pushing
                            > > the upper limits of
                            > > specific energy - the number of watt-hours they can
                            > > store for a given
                            > > weight. The best that conventional batteries can
                            > > achieve theoretically is
                            > > 300 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), though most
                            > > manage barely half that in
                            > > practice. That is nowhere near enough for the armed
                            > > forces. The Pentagon has
                            > > said that it wants to deploy portable equipment
                            > > loaded with energy-guzzling
                            > > features that would require up to 3100 Wh/kg by
                            > > 2006. The physical
                            > > properties of batteries make it impossible for them
                            > > to ever achieve such
                            > > goals."
                            > >
                            > > His comments on the needs of the military
                            > > notwithstanding, are his facts
                            > > and figures correct on the battery's theoretical
                            > > limit? I had not heard of
                            > > such a limit and he doesn't explain it at all.
                            > >
                            > > Paul Scott
                            > > 310-399-5997
                            > > pscottvfx@e...
                            > >
                            > > This does remind me of gloom and doom
                            > > anti-technology predictions from
                            > > the past. It is possible to know and calculate the
                            > > theoretical maximum
                            > > energy from specific battery combinations---that's
                            > > basic electrochemistry.
                            > >
                            > > The theoretical limits of current batteries are
                            > > actually much higher than
                            > > 300 wh/kg. The basic reactants of lead acid imply a
                            > > limit around 120
                            > > watt hours per kilogram, and actual batteries
                            > > deliver 20 to 40 wh/kg.
                            > > At the other extreme, I believe the reactants of
                            > > current lithium battery
                            > > chemistries imply a theoretical value around
                            > > 1500-3000 wh/kg. The
                            > > difference between the theoretical and actual values
                            > > results from the
                            > > weight of case, electrical conductors, separators,
                            > > electrolyte, important
                            > > non-reactant ingredients, and reactants that don't
                            > > get used.
                            > >
                            > > Fifteen years ago, the best practical and known
                            > > rechargeable batteries
                            > > delivered maybe 70 wh/kg. Today, commercial
                            > > batteries are reaching
                            > > 200 wh/kg. It is fair to argue on a technical basis
                            > > that a specific
                            > > chemistry will have a definite practical performance
                            > > limit. But new
                            > > combinations will continue to be developed in the
                            > > future; I wouldn't
                            > > want to predict where things will go in the future.
                            > > I certainly wouldn't
                            > > want to predict that technology won't improve beyond
                            > > a certain point.
                            > >
                            > > I can't see what practical applications would need
                            > > 3000 wh/kg.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > /wk
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > All good points Ernie. To look at electric
                            > > vehicles today, one would think
                            > > > they all have
                            > > > to be small and extremely ugly. Also looking at
                            > > hybrids and plug-in
                            > > > hybrids gives the
                            > > > impression that we will always have an internal
                            > > combustion engine in our
                            > > > vehicle. But
                            > > > predicting the future can make everyone look
                            > > silly.
                            > > >
                            > > > For now, the plug-in hybrid looks like the best
                            > > "vehicle" to blaze the
                            > > > trail to a pure
                            > > > electric vehicle. Biofuels definitely fit well
                            > > with a plug in hybrid and
                            > > > hopefully we
                            > > > will see both these technologies blossom soon.
                            > > With the history of battery
                            > > > electric
                            > > > vehicles, it's easy to understand why they seem
                            > > limited to small marginal
                            > > > units. But
                            > > > every single limitation of the battery electric
                            > > vehicle that I've been
                            > > > able to think of,
                            > > > all leads back to the battery. The next question
                            > > one must ask oneself is,
                            > > > has battery
                            > > > technology already reached its zenith. If we
                            > > listen to General Motors and
                            > > > others, this is
                            > > > the case. They claim that they've given up on the
                            > > battery and have moved
                            > > > on to the
                            > > > hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is
                            > > that they've given up on
                            > > > the electric
                            > > > vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell
                            > > vehicle is nothing but an
                            > > > electric vehicle
                            > > > that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.
                            > > >
                            > > > Possibly the battery has run up against a
                            > > technological brick wall.
                            > > > Possibly General
                            > > > Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden
                            > > agenda in their
                            > > > campaign to explain to
                            > > > us why they have given up on the battery electric
                            > > vehicle. But while
                            > > > General Motors and
                            > > > US Car may have given up, others still have some
                            > > hope for the battery. My
                            > > > belief is that
                            > > > battery technology is still in its infancy.
                            > > Materials science along with
                            > > > growing need
                            > > > from all sectors of society may still produce some
                            > > very pleasant and
                            > > > exciting battery
                            > > > technology surprises for us in the future.
                            > > >
                            > > > Why should a battery be any different than the gas
                            > > tank? Why can't a
                            > > > battery be superior
                            > > > to a fuel tank? If the battery can be recharged in
                            > > about the same amount
                            > > > of time it takes
                            > > > to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the
                            > > biggest gripes. If the
                            > > > battery can be
                            > > > made to work in all weather conditions, another
                            > > common gripe goes by the
                            > > > wayside. And if
                            > > > range can be achieved similar to that of liquid
                            > > fuel vehicles, no one will
                            > > > have that to
                            > > > complain about. There or still cost and
                            > > environmental and other issues to
                            > > > consider but I
                            > > > see no brick wall.
                            > > >
                            > > > Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery
                            > > vehicle? What, other than our
                            > > > current
                            > > > perceptions or misperceptions makes something like
                            > > this impossible. It's
                            > > > tough to twist
                            > > > our minds in new ways and as we predict the future
                            > > were sure to look like
                            > > > fools at times.
                            > > > There is also a lot of inertia to break through,
                            > > as with any new concept.
                            > > > The electric
                            > > > vehicle is generally understood to have certain
                            > > characteristics. Even
                            > > > people who are
                            > > > usually up on the latest technologies and are
                            > > knowledgeable about vehicles
                            > > > in particular
                            > > > will often hold some very incorrect views about
                            > > electric vehicles. Battery
                            > > > electric
                            > > > trucks may still be a long way off but the view of
                            > > all electric vehicles
                            > > > as being slugs
                            > > > on the road is about to be shattered.
                            > >
                            > === message truncated ===
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________
                            > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                            > http://mail.yahoo.com
                            >
                          • ntsl532
                            They used to be very competitive a few years ago. I have not followed their pricing recently, but you can take a look at their web site and see what they
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 14, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              They used to be very competitive a few years ago. I have not followed
                              their pricing recently, but you can take a look at their web site and
                              see what they have. The marketing firm is called Everspring. Best of
                              luck!

                              --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Provost" <cxdsew32@h...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Who at Thunder Sky did you talk to to get pricing? Do they have a US
                              > dealer or english web site? Valence is around $1.50 a wh.
                              >
                              > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Yodda Pierce <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I just wanted to answer your last question here.
                              > > Perhaps your question was rhetorical, but you asked
                              > > what applications would require 3000 Wh/Kg. My
                              > > thought would be like military vehicles like tanks,
                              > > amphibious assault vehicles, aircraft, commercial and
                              > > military, perhaps trucks. Those are a few I can think
                              > > of. The advantage would be if we had a battery with
                              > > this type of energy, fuel cells would not be needed
                              > > due to their high cost. Then all the resources could
                              > > focus on batteries and the result would be to get a
                              > > high output EV batery available to the public. The
                              > > problem right now seems not to be that we do not have
                              > > a battery that meet the criteria for electric
                              > > vehicles, but rather that the cost for such a battery
                              > > pack is very expensive making the electric vehicle
                              > > 50-100% more than the cost of the ICE vehicle.
                              > > Therefore, additional resources need to be spent not
                              > > only to improve battery technology, but rather to
                              > > improve production methodologies to make these
                              > > advanced battery chemistries affordable in a EV pack.
                              > > The lowest cost I could find for a 30 Kwh battery pack
                              > > was from a company called Thunder Sky in China. It
                              > > was about $15,000-20,000 which was a decrease of
                              > > $80,000 from the $100,000 price tag for a similar
                              > > lithium polymer battery from 3M. Hopefully we can see
                              > > the prices fall to $1000-$5000 range in the future and
                              > > we can then see the BEV become very close to the price
                              > > of the ICE car and have similar range. Of course new
                              > > battery technologes still need to be considered,
                              > > however we are now in th e position where existing
                              > > technology can produce a low weight, high power output
                              > > EV battery pack. We just need to get the price down.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@e...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Hi All,
                              > > >
                              > > > I'm enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes, it's the
                              > > > crux of the matter. A
                              > > > while back, I asked a question to the EV lists about
                              > > > the theoretical limits
                              > > > to batteries. I got several great responses, but
                              > > > William Kortoff's seemed to
                              > > > be the best. I'm reprinting it below:
                              > > >
                              > > > At 07:30 PM 3/29/2004, Paul Scott wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > A question for you engineers on the lists. This is
                              > > > a quote from "Power To
                              > > > the People" by Vijay Waitheeswaran in a section on
                              > > > the battery electric
                              > > > vehicle:
                              > > >
                              > > > "The trouble is that battery systems are pushing
                              > > > the upper limits of
                              > > > specific energy - the number of watt-hours they can
                              > > > store for a given
                              > > > weight. The best that conventional batteries can
                              > > > achieve theoretically is
                              > > > 300 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), though most
                              > > > manage barely half that in
                              > > > practice. That is nowhere near enough for the armed
                              > > > forces. The Pentagon has
                              > > > said that it wants to deploy portable equipment
                              > > > loaded with energy-guzzling
                              > > > features that would require up to 3100 Wh/kg by
                              > > > 2006. The physical
                              > > > properties of batteries make it impossible for them
                              > > > to ever achieve such
                              > > > goals."
                              > > >
                              > > > His comments on the needs of the military
                              > > > notwithstanding, are his facts
                              > > > and figures correct on the battery's theoretical
                              > > > limit? I had not heard of
                              > > > such a limit and he doesn't explain it at all.
                              > > >
                              > > > Paul Scott
                              > > > 310-399-5997
                              > > > pscottvfx@e...
                              > > >
                              > > > This does remind me of gloom and doom
                              > > > anti-technology predictions from
                              > > > the past. It is possible to know and calculate the
                              > > > theoretical maximum
                              > > > energy from specific battery combinations---that's
                              > > > basic electrochemistry.
                              > > >
                              > > > The theoretical limits of current batteries are
                              > > > actually much higher than
                              > > > 300 wh/kg. The basic reactants of lead acid imply a
                              > > > limit around 120
                              > > > watt hours per kilogram, and actual batteries
                              > > > deliver 20 to 40 wh/kg.
                              > > > At the other extreme, I believe the reactants of
                              > > > current lithium battery
                              > > > chemistries imply a theoretical value around
                              > > > 1500-3000 wh/kg. The
                              > > > difference between the theoretical and actual values
                              > > > results from the
                              > > > weight of case, electrical conductors, separators,
                              > > > electrolyte, important
                              > > > non-reactant ingredients, and reactants that don't
                              > > > get used.
                              > > >
                              > > > Fifteen years ago, the best practical and known
                              > > > rechargeable batteries
                              > > > delivered maybe 70 wh/kg. Today, commercial
                              > > > batteries are reaching
                              > > > 200 wh/kg. It is fair to argue on a technical basis
                              > > > that a specific
                              > > > chemistry will have a definite practical performance
                              > > > limit. But new
                              > > > combinations will continue to be developed in the
                              > > > future; I wouldn't
                              > > > want to predict where things will go in the future.
                              > > > I certainly wouldn't
                              > > > want to predict that technology won't improve beyond
                              > > > a certain point.
                              > > >
                              > > > I can't see what practical applications would need
                              > > > 3000 wh/kg.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > /wk
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > All good points Ernie. To look at electric
                              > > > vehicles today, one would think
                              > > > > they all have
                              > > > > to be small and extremely ugly. Also looking at
                              > > > hybrids and plug-in
                              > > > > hybrids gives the
                              > > > > impression that we will always have an internal
                              > > > combustion engine in our
                              > > > > vehicle. But
                              > > > > predicting the future can make everyone look
                              > > > silly.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > For now, the plug-in hybrid looks like the best
                              > > > "vehicle" to blaze the
                              > > > > trail to a pure
                              > > > > electric vehicle. Biofuels definitely fit well
                              > > > with a plug in hybrid and
                              > > > > hopefully we
                              > > > > will see both these technologies blossom soon.
                              > > > With the history of battery
                              > > > > electric
                              > > > > vehicles, it's easy to understand why they seem
                              > > > limited to small marginal
                              > > > > units. But
                              > > > > every single limitation of the battery electric
                              > > > vehicle that I've been
                              > > > > able to think of,
                              > > > > all leads back to the battery. The next question
                              > > > one must ask oneself is,
                              > > > > has battery
                              > > > > technology already reached its zenith. If we
                              > > > listen to General Motors and
                              > > > > others, this is
                              > > > > the case. They claim that they've given up on the
                              > > > battery and have moved
                              > > > > on to the
                              > > > > hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is
                              > > > that they've given up on
                              > > > > the electric
                              > > > > vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell
                              > > > vehicle is nothing but an
                              > > > > electric vehicle
                              > > > > that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Possibly the battery has run up against a
                              > > > technological brick wall.
                              > > > > Possibly General
                              > > > > Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden
                              > > > agenda in their
                              > > > > campaign to explain to
                              > > > > us why they have given up on the battery electric
                              > > > vehicle. But while
                              > > > > General Motors and
                              > > > > US Car may have given up, others still have some
                              > > > hope for the battery. My
                              > > > > belief is that
                              > > > > battery technology is still in its infancy.
                              > > > Materials science along with
                              > > > > growing need
                              > > > > from all sectors of society may still produce some
                              > > > very pleasant and
                              > > > > exciting battery
                              > > > > technology surprises for us in the future.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Why should a battery be any different than the gas
                              > > > tank? Why can't a
                              > > > > battery be superior
                              > > > > to a fuel tank? If the battery can be recharged in
                              > > > about the same amount
                              > > > > of time it takes
                              > > > > to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the
                              > > > biggest gripes. If the
                              > > > > battery can be
                              > > > > made to work in all weather conditions, another
                              > > > common gripe goes by the
                              > > > > wayside. And if
                              > > > > range can be achieved similar to that of liquid
                              > > > fuel vehicles, no one will
                              > > > > have that to
                              > > > > complain about. There or still cost and
                              > > > environmental and other issues to
                              > > > > consider but I
                              > > > > see no brick wall.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery
                              > > > vehicle? What, other than our
                              > > > > current
                              > > > > perceptions or misperceptions makes something like
                              > > > this impossible. It's
                              > > > > tough to twist
                              > > > > our minds in new ways and as we predict the future
                              > > > were sure to look like
                              > > > > fools at times.
                              > > > > There is also a lot of inertia to break through,
                              > > > as with any new concept.
                              > > > > The electric
                              > > > > vehicle is generally understood to have certain
                              > > > characteristics. Even
                              > > > > people who are
                              > > > > usually up on the latest technologies and are
                              > > > knowledgeable about vehicles
                              > > > > in particular
                              > > > > will often hold some very incorrect views about
                              > > > electric vehicles. Battery
                              > > > > electric
                              > > > > trucks may still be a long way off but the view of
                              > > > all electric vehicles
                              > > > > as being slugs
                              > > > > on the road is about to be shattered.
                              > > >
                              > > === message truncated ===
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > __________________________________
                              > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                              > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                              > >
                              >
                            • Scott Provost
                              I looked at both web sites. While they talk about 1100 cycle longevity the specs on the 100ah and 200 ah say 300 cycles 80%DOD. If they could be purchased for
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 15, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I looked at both web sites. While they talk about 1100 cycle
                                longevity the specs on the 100ah and 200 ah say >300 cycles 80%DOD.
                                If they could be purchased for a dime a wh they would be very
                                attractive. I will try to purchase a few cells and try them out. I
                                also have a Powerzinc battery coming with a couple sets of plates. I
                                will test them as well but when the plates are used up the nearest
                                recharger is in China.

                                Thanks.

                                --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "ntsl532" <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > They used to be very competitive a few years ago. I have not
                                followed
                                > their pricing recently, but you can take a look at their web site
                                and
                                > see what they have. The marketing firm is called Everspring.
                                Best of
                                > luck!
                                >
                                > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Provost" <cxdsew32@h...>
                                wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Who at Thunder Sky did you talk to to get pricing? Do they have
                                a US
                                > > dealer or english web site? Valence is around $1.50 a wh.
                                > >
                                > > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Yodda Pierce <ntsl532@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I just wanted to answer your last question here.
                                > > > Perhaps your question was rhetorical, but you asked
                                > > > what applications would require 3000 Wh/Kg. My
                                > > > thought would be like military vehicles like tanks,
                                > > > amphibious assault vehicles, aircraft, commercial and
                                > > > military, perhaps trucks. Those are a few I can think
                                > > > of. The advantage would be if we had a battery with
                                > > > this type of energy, fuel cells would not be needed
                                > > > due to their high cost. Then all the resources could
                                > > > focus on batteries and the result would be to get a
                                > > > high output EV batery available to the public. The
                                > > > problem right now seems not to be that we do not have
                                > > > a battery that meet the criteria for electric
                                > > > vehicles, but rather that the cost for such a battery
                                > > > pack is very expensive making the electric vehicle
                                > > > 50-100% more than the cost of the ICE vehicle.
                                > > > Therefore, additional resources need to be spent not
                                > > > only to improve battery technology, but rather to
                                > > > improve production methodologies to make these
                                > > > advanced battery chemistries affordable in a EV pack.
                                > > > The lowest cost I could find for a 30 Kwh battery pack
                                > > > was from a company called Thunder Sky in China. It
                                > > > was about $15,000-20,000 which was a decrease of
                                > > > $80,000 from the $100,000 price tag for a similar
                                > > > lithium polymer battery from 3M. Hopefully we can see
                                > > > the prices fall to $1000-$5000 range in the future and
                                > > > we can then see the BEV become very close to the price
                                > > > of the ICE car and have similar range. Of course new
                                > > > battery technologes still need to be considered,
                                > > > however we are now in th e position where existing
                                > > > technology can produce a low weight, high power output
                                > > > EV battery pack. We just need to get the price down.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@e...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > Hi All,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I'm enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes, it's the
                                > > > > crux of the matter. A
                                > > > > while back, I asked a question to the EV lists about
                                > > > > the theoretical limits
                                > > > > to batteries. I got several great responses, but
                                > > > > William Kortoff's seemed to
                                > > > > be the best. I'm reprinting it below:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > At 07:30 PM 3/29/2004, Paul Scott wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > A question for you engineers on the lists. This is
                                > > > > a quote from "Power To
                                > > > > the People" by Vijay Waitheeswaran in a section on
                                > > > > the battery electric
                                > > > > vehicle:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "The trouble is that battery systems are pushing
                                > > > > the upper limits of
                                > > > > specific energy - the number of watt-hours they can
                                > > > > store for a given
                                > > > > weight. The best that conventional batteries can
                                > > > > achieve theoretically is
                                > > > > 300 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), though most
                                > > > > manage barely half that in
                                > > > > practice. That is nowhere near enough for the armed
                                > > > > forces. The Pentagon has
                                > > > > said that it wants to deploy portable equipment
                                > > > > loaded with energy-guzzling
                                > > > > features that would require up to 3100 Wh/kg by
                                > > > > 2006. The physical
                                > > > > properties of batteries make it impossible for them
                                > > > > to ever achieve such
                                > > > > goals."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > His comments on the needs of the military
                                > > > > notwithstanding, are his facts
                                > > > > and figures correct on the battery's theoretical
                                > > > > limit? I had not heard of
                                > > > > such a limit and he doesn't explain it at all.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Paul Scott
                                > > > > 310-399-5997
                                > > > > pscottvfx@e...
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This does remind me of gloom and doom
                                > > > > anti-technology predictions from
                                > > > > the past. It is possible to know and calculate the
                                > > > > theoretical maximum
                                > > > > energy from specific battery combinations---that's
                                > > > > basic electrochemistry.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The theoretical limits of current batteries are
                                > > > > actually much higher than
                                > > > > 300 wh/kg. The basic reactants of lead acid imply a
                                > > > > limit around 120
                                > > > > watt hours per kilogram, and actual batteries
                                > > > > deliver 20 to 40 wh/kg.
                                > > > > At the other extreme, I believe the reactants of
                                > > > > current lithium battery
                                > > > > chemistries imply a theoretical value around
                                > > > > 1500-3000 wh/kg. The
                                > > > > difference between the theoretical and actual values
                                > > > > results from the
                                > > > > weight of case, electrical conductors, separators,
                                > > > > electrolyte, important
                                > > > > non-reactant ingredients, and reactants that don't
                                > > > > get used.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Fifteen years ago, the best practical and known
                                > > > > rechargeable batteries
                                > > > > delivered maybe 70 wh/kg. Today, commercial
                                > > > > batteries are reaching
                                > > > > 200 wh/kg. It is fair to argue on a technical basis
                                > > > > that a specific
                                > > > > chemistry will have a definite practical performance
                                > > > > limit. But new
                                > > > > combinations will continue to be developed in the
                                > > > > future; I wouldn't
                                > > > > want to predict where things will go in the future.
                                > > > > I certainly wouldn't
                                > > > > want to predict that technology won't improve beyond
                                > > > > a certain point.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I can't see what practical applications would need
                                > > > > 3000 wh/kg.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > /wk
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > All good points Ernie. To look at electric
                                > > > > vehicles today, one would think
                                > > > > > they all have
                                > > > > > to be small and extremely ugly. Also looking at
                                > > > > hybrids and plug-in
                                > > > > > hybrids gives the
                                > > > > > impression that we will always have an internal
                                > > > > combustion engine in our
                                > > > > > vehicle. But
                                > > > > > predicting the future can make everyone look
                                > > > > silly.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > For now, the plug-in hybrid looks like the best
                                > > > > "vehicle" to blaze the
                                > > > > > trail to a pure
                                > > > > > electric vehicle. Biofuels definitely fit well
                                > > > > with a plug in hybrid and
                                > > > > > hopefully we
                                > > > > > will see both these technologies blossom soon.
                                > > > > With the history of battery
                                > > > > > electric
                                > > > > > vehicles, it's easy to understand why they seem
                                > > > > limited to small marginal
                                > > > > > units. But
                                > > > > > every single limitation of the battery electric
                                > > > > vehicle that I've been
                                > > > > > able to think of,
                                > > > > > all leads back to the battery. The next question
                                > > > > one must ask oneself is,
                                > > > > > has battery
                                > > > > > technology already reached its zenith. If we
                                > > > > listen to General Motors and
                                > > > > > others, this is
                                > > > > > the case. They claim that they've given up on the
                                > > > > battery and have moved
                                > > > > > on to the
                                > > > > > hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is
                                > > > > that they've given up on
                                > > > > > the electric
                                > > > > > vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell
                                > > > > vehicle is nothing but an
                                > > > > > electric vehicle
                                > > > > > that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Possibly the battery has run up against a
                                > > > > technological brick wall.
                                > > > > > Possibly General
                                > > > > > Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden
                                > > > > agenda in their
                                > > > > > campaign to explain to
                                > > > > > us why they have given up on the battery electric
                                > > > > vehicle. But while
                                > > > > > General Motors and
                                > > > > > US Car may have given up, others still have some
                                > > > > hope for the battery. My
                                > > > > > belief is that
                                > > > > > battery technology is still in its infancy.
                                > > > > Materials science along with
                                > > > > > growing need
                                > > > > > from all sectors of society may still produce some
                                > > > > very pleasant and
                                > > > > > exciting battery
                                > > > > > technology surprises for us in the future.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Why should a battery be any different than the gas
                                > > > > tank? Why can't a
                                > > > > > battery be superior
                                > > > > > to a fuel tank? If the battery can be recharged in
                                > > > > about the same amount
                                > > > > > of time it takes
                                > > > > > to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the
                                > > > > biggest gripes. If the
                                > > > > > battery can be
                                > > > > > made to work in all weather conditions, another
                                > > > > common gripe goes by the
                                > > > > > wayside. And if
                                > > > > > range can be achieved similar to that of liquid
                                > > > > fuel vehicles, no one will
                                > > > > > have that to
                                > > > > > complain about. There or still cost and
                                > > > > environmental and other issues to
                                > > > > > consider but I
                                > > > > > see no brick wall.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery
                                > > > > vehicle? What, other than our
                                > > > > > current
                                > > > > > perceptions or misperceptions makes something like
                                > > > > this impossible. It's
                                > > > > > tough to twist
                                > > > > > our minds in new ways and as we predict the future
                                > > > > were sure to look like
                                > > > > > fools at times.
                                > > > > > There is also a lot of inertia to break through,
                                > > > > as with any new concept.
                                > > > > > The electric
                                > > > > > vehicle is generally understood to have certain
                                > > > > characteristics. Even
                                > > > > > people who are
                                > > > > > usually up on the latest technologies and are
                                > > > > knowledgeable about vehicles
                                > > > > > in particular
                                > > > > > will often hold some very incorrect views about
                                > > > > electric vehicles. Battery
                                > > > > > electric
                                > > > > > trucks may still be a long way off but the view of
                                > > > > all electric vehicles
                                > > > > > as being slugs
                                > > > > > on the road is about to be shattered.
                                > > > >
                                > > > === message truncated ===
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > __________________________________
                                > > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                                > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Eric Penne
                                Victor Tikhonov at metricmind.com is using the Thundersky in his conversion. Contact him before purchasing anything.
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 15, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Victor Tikhonov at metricmind.com is using the Thundersky in his
                                  conversion. Contact him before purchasing anything.

                                  Scott Provost wrote:
                                  > I looked at both web sites. While they talk about 1100 cycle
                                  > longevity the specs on the 100ah and 200 ah say >300 cycles 80%DOD.
                                  > If they could be purchased for a dime a wh they would be very
                                  > attractive. I will try to purchase a few cells and try them out. I
                                  > also have a Powerzinc battery coming with a couple sets of plates. I
                                  > will test them as well but when the plates are used up the nearest
                                  > recharger is in China.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "ntsl532" <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>They used to be very competitive a few years ago. I have not
                                  >
                                  > followed
                                  >
                                  >>their pricing recently, but you can take a look at their web site
                                  >
                                  > and
                                  >
                                  >>see what they have. The marketing firm is called Everspring.
                                  >
                                  > Best of
                                  >
                                  >>luck!
                                  >>
                                  >>--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Provost" <cxdsew32@h...>
                                  >
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>>Who at Thunder Sky did you talk to to get pricing? Do they have
                                  >
                                  > a US
                                  >
                                  >>>dealer or english web site? Valence is around $1.50 a wh.
                                  >>>
                                  >>>--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Yodda Pierce <ntsl532@y...>
                                  >
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>>>I just wanted to answer your last question here.
                                  >>>>Perhaps your question was rhetorical, but you asked
                                  >>>>what applications would require 3000 Wh/Kg. My
                                  >>>>thought would be like military vehicles like tanks,
                                  >>>>amphibious assault vehicles, aircraft, commercial and
                                  >>>>military, perhaps trucks. Those are a few I can think
                                  >>>>of. The advantage would be if we had a battery with
                                  >>>>this type of energy, fuel cells would not be needed
                                  >>>>due to their high cost. Then all the resources could
                                  >>>>focus on batteries and the result would be to get a
                                  >>>>high output EV batery available to the public. The
                                  >>>>problem right now seems not to be that we do not have
                                  >>>>a battery that meet the criteria for electric
                                  >>>>vehicles, but rather that the cost for such a battery
                                  >>>>pack is very expensive making the electric vehicle
                                  >>>>50-100% more than the cost of the ICE vehicle.
                                  >>>>Therefore, additional resources need to be spent not
                                  >>>>only to improve battery technology, but rather to
                                  >>>>improve production methodologies to make these
                                  >>>>advanced battery chemistries affordable in a EV pack.
                                  >>>>The lowest cost I could find for a 30 Kwh battery pack
                                  >>>>was from a company called Thunder Sky in China. It
                                  >>>>was about $15,000-20,000 which was a decrease of
                                  >>>>$80,000 from the $100,000 price tag for a similar
                                  >>>>lithium polymer battery from 3M. Hopefully we can see
                                  >>>>the prices fall to $1000-$5000 range in the future and
                                  >>>>we can then see the BEV become very close to the price
                                  >>>>of the ICE car and have similar range. Of course new
                                  >>>>battery technologes still need to be considered,
                                  >>>>however we are now in th e position where existing
                                  >>>>technology can produce a low weight, high power output
                                  >>>>EV battery pack. We just need to get the price down.
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>--- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@e...> wrote:
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>>Hi All,
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>I'm enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes, it's the
                                  >>>>>crux of the matter. A
                                  >>>>>while back, I asked a question to the EV lists about
                                  >>>>>the theoretical limits
                                  >>>>>to batteries. I got several great responses, but
                                  >>>>>William Kortoff's seemed to
                                  >>>>>be the best. I'm reprinting it below:
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>At 07:30 PM 3/29/2004, Paul Scott wrote:
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> A question for you engineers on the lists. This is
                                  >>>>>a quote from "Power To
                                  >>>>>the People" by Vijay Waitheeswaran in a section on
                                  >>>>>the battery electric
                                  >>>>>vehicle:
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> "The trouble is that battery systems are pushing
                                  >>>>>the upper limits of
                                  >>>>>specific energy - the number of watt-hours they can
                                  >>>>>store for a given
                                  >>>>>weight. The best that conventional batteries can
                                  >>>>>achieve theoretically is
                                  >>>>>300 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), though most
                                  >>>>>manage barely half that in
                                  >>>>>practice. That is nowhere near enough for the armed
                                  >>>>>forces. The Pentagon has
                                  >>>>>said that it wants to deploy portable equipment
                                  >>>>>loaded with energy-guzzling
                                  >>>>>features that would require up to 3100 Wh/kg by
                                  >>>>>2006. The physical
                                  >>>>>properties of batteries make it impossible for them
                                  >>>>>to ever achieve such
                                  >>>>>goals."
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> His comments on the needs of the military
                                  >>>>>notwithstanding, are his facts
                                  >>>>>and figures correct on the battery's theoretical
                                  >>>>>limit? I had not heard of
                                  >>>>>such a limit and he doesn't explain it at all.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>> Paul Scott
                                  >>>>> 310-399-5997
                                  >>>>> pscottvfx@e...
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>This does remind me of gloom and doom
                                  >>>>>anti-technology predictions from
                                  >>>>>the past. It is possible to know and calculate the
                                  >>>>>theoretical maximum
                                  >>>>>energy from specific battery combinations---that's
                                  >>>>>basic electrochemistry.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>The theoretical limits of current batteries are
                                  >>>>>actually much higher than
                                  >>>>>300 wh/kg. The basic reactants of lead acid imply a
                                  >>>>>limit around 120
                                  >>>>>watt hours per kilogram, and actual batteries
                                  >>>>>deliver 20 to 40 wh/kg.
                                  >>>>>At the other extreme, I believe the reactants of
                                  >>>>>current lithium battery
                                  >>>>>chemistries imply a theoretical value around
                                  >>>>>1500-3000 wh/kg. The
                                  >>>>>difference between the theoretical and actual values
                                  >>>>>results from the
                                  >>>>>weight of case, electrical conductors, separators,
                                  >>>>>electrolyte, important
                                  >>>>>non-reactant ingredients, and reactants that don't
                                  >>>>>get used.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>Fifteen years ago, the best practical and known
                                  >>>>>rechargeable batteries
                                  >>>>>delivered maybe 70 wh/kg. Today, commercial
                                  >>>>>batteries are reaching
                                  >>>>>200 wh/kg. It is fair to argue on a technical basis
                                  >>>>>that a specific
                                  >>>>>chemistry will have a definite practical performance
                                  >>>>>limit. But new
                                  >>>>>combinations will continue to be developed in the
                                  >>>>>future; I wouldn't
                                  >>>>>want to predict where things will go in the future.
                                  >>>>>I certainly wouldn't
                                  >>>>>want to predict that technology won't improve beyond
                                  >>>>>a certain point.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>I can't see what practical applications would need
                                  >>>>>3000 wh/kg.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>/wk
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>All good points Ernie. To look at electric
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>vehicles today, one would think
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>they all have
                                  >>>>>>to be small and extremely ugly. Also looking at
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>hybrids and plug-in
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>hybrids gives the
                                  >>>>>>impression that we will always have an internal
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>combustion engine in our
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>vehicle. But
                                  >>>>>>predicting the future can make everyone look
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>silly.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>For now, the plug-in hybrid looks like the best
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>"vehicle" to blaze the
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>trail to a pure
                                  >>>>>>electric vehicle. Biofuels definitely fit well
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>with a plug in hybrid and
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>hopefully we
                                  >>>>>>will see both these technologies blossom soon.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>With the history of battery
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>electric
                                  >>>>>>vehicles, it's easy to understand why they seem
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>limited to small marginal
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>units. But
                                  >>>>>>every single limitation of the battery electric
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>vehicle that I've been
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>able to think of,
                                  >>>>>>all leads back to the battery. The next question
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>one must ask oneself is,
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>has battery
                                  >>>>>>technology already reached its zenith. If we
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>listen to General Motors and
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>others, this is
                                  >>>>>>the case. They claim that they've given up on the
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>battery and have moved
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>on to the
                                  >>>>>>hydrogen fuel cell. What they actually claim is
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>that they've given up on
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>the electric
                                  >>>>>>vehicle, but we all know a hydrogen fuel cell
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>vehicle is nothing but an
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>electric vehicle
                                  >>>>>>that gets its electricity from the fuel cell.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>Possibly the battery has run up against a
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>technological brick wall.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>Possibly General
                                  >>>>>>Motors is being genuine and does not have a hidden
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>agenda in their
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>campaign to explain to
                                  >>>>>>us why they have given up on the battery electric
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>vehicle. But while
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>General Motors and
                                  >>>>>>US Car may have given up, others still have some
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>hope for the battery. My
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>belief is that
                                  >>>>>>battery technology is still in its infancy.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>Materials science along with
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>growing need
                                  >>>>>>from all sectors of society may still produce some
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>very pleasant and
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>exciting battery
                                  >>>>>>technology surprises for us in the future.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>Why should a battery be any different than the gas
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>tank? Why can't a
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>battery be superior
                                  >>>>>>to a fuel tank? If the battery can be recharged in
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>about the same amount
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>of time it takes
                                  >>>>>>to fill the fuel tank, that eliminates one of the
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>biggest gripes. If the
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>battery can be
                                  >>>>>>made to work in all weather conditions, another
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>common gripe goes by the
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>wayside. And if
                                  >>>>>>range can be achieved similar to that of liquid
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>fuel vehicles, no one will
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>have that to
                                  >>>>>>complain about. There or still cost and
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>environmental and other issues to
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>consider but I
                                  >>>>>>see no brick wall.
                                  >>>>>>
                                  >>>>>>Why couldn't a large truck be a pure battery
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>vehicle? What, other than our
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>current
                                  >>>>>>perceptions or misperceptions makes something like
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>this impossible. It's
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>tough to twist
                                  >>>>>>our minds in new ways and as we predict the future
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>were sure to look like
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>fools at times.
                                  >>>>>>There is also a lot of inertia to break through,
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>as with any new concept.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>The electric
                                  >>>>>>vehicle is generally understood to have certain
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>characteristics. Even
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>people who are
                                  >>>>>>usually up on the latest technologies and are
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>knowledgeable about vehicles
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>in particular
                                  >>>>>>will often hold some very incorrect views about
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>electric vehicles. Battery
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>electric
                                  >>>>>>trucks may still be a long way off but the view of
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>all electric vehicles
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>>>as being slugs
                                  >>>>>>on the road is about to be shattered.
                                  >>>>>
                                  >>>>=== message truncated ===
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>__________________________________
                                  >>>>Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                                  >>>>http://mail.yahoo.com
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Yodda Pierce
                                  Thanks for the information Eric. I had been looking for someone with experience with these batteries before making a purchase. At the time, the
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Oct 15, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks for the information Eric. I had been looking
                                    for someone with experience with these batteries
                                    before making a purchase. At the time, the
                                    specifications and cost of these batteries seemed
                                    impressive and blew away most other lithium ion and
                                    lithium polymer batteries out there in cost. 3M had a
                                    30 Kwh pack for $100,000 and other companies that made
                                    the lithium ion cells had a pack for $30,000 - $50,00,
                                    but had over heating issues. So the Thunder Sky pack
                                    at $14,000 seemed like a good deal. The question I
                                    had was, can the CHinese be trusted and be honest with
                                    their specifications, and will they honor their
                                    warranty? My experience from past dealings is they
                                    canno be trustedw. And being that they are located on
                                    the other side of the planet they are pretty much
                                    immune from US law and prosecution. As a result I was
                                    cautious about making a purchase. There was a price
                                    increase last year too. I will be interested to speak
                                    to Mr. Tikonov about his experiences with the
                                    batteries.

                                    Scott, please tell us more about the zinc/air
                                    batteries and where we can get samples for test
                                    purposes. If I could have reduced weight over lithium
                                    polymer, reduced cost per Kwh, and the ability to
                                    easily rebuild the zinc/air battery at low cost after
                                    say 100 cycles, I would definitely have more interest
                                    in the zinc/air batteries. But to date I have not
                                    seen a zinc/air battery that meets these criteria.
                                    Hope yours can achieve these goals.

                                    Yodda


                                    --- Eric Penne <epenne@...> wrote:

                                    > Victor Tikhonov at metricmind.com is using the
                                    > Thundersky in his
                                    > conversion. Contact him before purchasing anything.
                                    >
                                    > Scott Provost wrote:
                                    > > I looked at both web sites. While they talk about
                                    > 1100 cycle
                                    > > longevity the specs on the 100ah and 200 ah say
                                    > >300 cycles 80%DOD.
                                    > > If they could be purchased for a dime a wh they
                                    > would be very
                                    > > attractive. I will try to purchase a few cells and
                                    > try them out. I
                                    > > also have a Powerzinc battery coming with a couple
                                    > sets of plates. I
                                    > > will test them as well but when the plates are
                                    > used up the nearest
                                    > > recharger is in China.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "ntsl532"
                                    > <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >>They used to be very competitive a few years ago.
                                    > I have not
                                    > >
                                    > > followed
                                    > >
                                    > >>their pricing recently, but you can take a look at
                                    > their web site
                                    > >
                                    > > and
                                    > >
                                    > >>see what they have. The marketing firm is called
                                    > Everspring.
                                    > >
                                    > > Best of
                                    > >
                                    > >>luck!
                                    > >>
                                    > >>--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Provost"
                                    > <cxdsew32@h...>
                                    > >
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >>>Who at Thunder Sky did you talk to to get
                                    > pricing? Do they have
                                    > >
                                    > > a US
                                    > >
                                    > >>>dealer or english web site? Valence is around
                                    > $1.50 a wh.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Yodda Pierce
                                    > <ntsl532@y...>
                                    > >
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >>>>I just wanted to answer your last question here.
                                    >
                                    > >>>>Perhaps your question was rhetorical, but you
                                    > asked
                                    > >>>>what applications would require 3000 Wh/Kg. My
                                    > >>>>thought would be like military vehicles like
                                    > tanks,
                                    > >>>>amphibious assault vehicles, aircraft,
                                    > commercial and
                                    > >>>>military, perhaps trucks. Those are a few I can
                                    > think
                                    > >>>>of. The advantage would be if we had a battery
                                    > with
                                    > >>>>this type of energy, fuel cells would not be
                                    > needed
                                    > >>>>due to their high cost. Then all the resources
                                    > could
                                    > >>>>focus on batteries and the result would be to
                                    > get a
                                    > >>>>high output EV batery available to the public.
                                    > The
                                    > >>>>problem right now seems not to be that we do not
                                    > have
                                    > >>>>a battery that meet the criteria for electric
                                    > >>>>vehicles, but rather that the cost for such a
                                    > battery
                                    > >>>>pack is very expensive making the electric
                                    > vehicle
                                    > >>>>50-100% more than the cost of the ICE vehicle.
                                    > >>>>Therefore, additional resources need to be spent
                                    > not
                                    > >>>>only to improve battery technology, but rather
                                    > to
                                    > >>>>improve production methodologies to make these
                                    > >>>>advanced battery chemistries affordable in a EV
                                    > pack.
                                    > >>>>The lowest cost I could find for a 30 Kwh
                                    > battery pack
                                    > >>>>was from a company called Thunder Sky in China.
                                    > It
                                    > >>>>was about $15,000-20,000 which was a decrease of
                                    > >>>>$80,000 from the $100,000 price tag for a
                                    > similar
                                    > >>>>lithium polymer battery from 3M. Hopefully we
                                    > can see
                                    > >>>>the prices fall to $1000-$5000 range in the
                                    > future and
                                    > >>>>we can then see the BEV become very close to the
                                    > price
                                    > >>>>of the ICE car and have similar range. Of
                                    > course new
                                    > >>>>battery technologes still need to be considered,
                                    > >>>>however we are now in th e position where
                                    > existing
                                    > >>>>technology can produce a low weight, high power
                                    > output
                                    > >>>>EV battery pack. We just need to get the price
                                    > down.
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>--- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@e...> wrote:
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>>Hi All,
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>>I'm enjoying the talk about batteries. Yes,
                                    > it's the
                                    > >>>>>crux of the matter. A
                                    > >>>>>while back, I asked a question to the EV lists
                                    > about
                                    > >>>>>the theoretical limits
                                    > >>>>>to batteries. I got several great responses,
                                    > but
                                    > >>>>>William Kortoff's seemed to
                                    > >>>>>be the best. I'm reprinting it below:
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>>At 07:30 PM 3/29/2004, Paul Scott wrote:
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>> A question for you engineers on the lists.
                                    > This is
                                    > >>>>>a quote from "Power To
                                    > >>>>>the People" by Vijay Waitheeswaran in a section
                                    > on
                                    > >>>>>the battery electric
                                    > >>>>>vehicle:
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>> "The trouble is that battery systems are
                                    > pushing
                                    > >>>>>the upper limits of
                                    > >>>>>specific energy - the number of watt-hours they
                                    > can
                                    > >>>>>store for a given
                                    > >>>>>weight. The best that conventional batteries
                                    > can
                                    > >>>>>achieve theoretically is
                                    > >>>>>300 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), though
                                    > most
                                    > >>>>>manage barely half that in
                                    > >>>>>practice. That is nowhere near enough for the
                                    > armed
                                    > >>>>>forces. The Pentagon has
                                    > >>>>>said that it wants to deploy portable equipment
                                    > >>>>>loaded with energy-guzzling
                                    > >>>>>features that would require up to 3100 Wh/kg by
                                    > >>>>>2006. The physical
                                    > >>>>>properties of batteries make it impossible for
                                    > them
                                    > >>>>>to ever achieve such
                                    > >>>>>goals."
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>> His comments on the needs of the military
                                    > >>>>>notwithstanding, are his facts
                                    > >>>>>and figures correct on the battery's
                                    > theoretical
                                    > >>>>>limit? I had not heard of
                                    > >>>>>such a limit and he doesn't explain it at all.
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>> Paul Scott
                                    > >>>>> 310-399-5997
                                    > >>>>> pscottvfx@e...
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>>This does remind me of gloom and doom
                                    > >>>>>anti-technology predictions from
                                    > >>>>>the past. It is possible to know and calculate
                                    > the
                                    > >>>>>theoretical maximum
                                    > >>>>>energy from specific battery
                                    > combinations---that's
                                    > >>>>>basic electrochemistry.
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>>The theoretical limits of current batteries are
                                    > >>>>>actually much higher than
                                    > >>>>>300 wh/kg. The basic reactants of lead acid
                                    > imply a
                                    > >>>>>limit around 120
                                    > >>>>>watt hours per kilogram, and actual batteries
                                    > >>>>>deliver 20 to 40 wh/kg.
                                    > >>>>>At the other extreme, I believe the reactants
                                    > of
                                    > >>>>>current lithium battery
                                    > >>>>>chemistries imply a theoretical value around
                                    >
                                    === message truncated ===




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