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Re: [evworld] Re: URL of Wavecrest ebike test ride

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  • murdoch
    ... Can you lend perspective on any safety issues that come with putting motors on 2 wheeled vehicles? Years ago I read of a more enclosed shell-like
    Message 1 of 18 , May 26, 2003
      On Sun, 25 May 2003 16:12:49 -0000, you wrote:

      >> What do you think of this Wavecrest electric motor for e-bikes?
      >>
      >> http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?
      >> storyid=525&first=4360&end=4359&survey=1
      >> Bob
      >> Nanaimo, BC
      >
      >Hi Bob, don't you have a better deep link to the hub motor in
      >question. I like such motors. The first electric hub motor was
      >created around 1900 by Ferdinand Porsche in Vienna/Austria.
      >In Berlin/Germany I sell the Barth E-Fix scooter,
      >hp: www.e-roller.de
      >with a built-in-wheel motor from Barth. It has a 93%
      >efficiency on the test stand and the scooter makes 50km from 1kWh.
      >This hub engine with 300W outperfomes 800W with gears and belt.
      >
      >Best regards, Hans U. Scholz
      >

      Can you lend perspective on any safety issues that come with putting
      motors on 2 wheeled vehicles? Years ago I read of a more enclosed
      shell-like structure on a European motorcycle, and I thought that was
      an interesting trend, but I haven't seen it in the states.

      In any case, in the one article I did where I test drove a couple of
      different e-bikes, this safety issue was always on my mind.

      MM
    • Yodda Pierce
      Interesting information! I just bought and attachment that converts a regular bicycle to an e-bike. It is a 168 watt motor with a small 7 A/h battery. The
      Message 2 of 18 , May 26, 2003
        Interesting information!

        I just bought and attachment that converts a regular
        bicycle to an e-bike. It is a 168 watt motor with a
        small 7 A/h battery. The top end for the bike is
        about 11 MPH with a 10-15 mile range, but I do not
        like the fact that the drive does not have a solid
        connection. It is through a belt that contacts the
        tire. I think the manufacturer is Zapword and the
        product is the Zeta 3.

        As for the EVworld article, I got an error when I
        clicked on it, and my German is rather weak at best,
        so I'm left wondering about the other information.
        50 Km for 1 Kwh sounds nice, but at what speed. And
        what about endothermic and exothermic battery losses?
        At a 300 Watt drain rate is there significant battery
        degradation, cycle life loss, etc. Is the system 12 V,
        24 V, 36 V? Thanks.

        NT




        --- murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
        > On Sun, 25 May 2003 16:12:49 -0000, you wrote:
        >
        > >> What do you think of this Wavecrest electric
        > motor for e-bikes?
        > >>
        > >>
        > http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?
        > >> storyid=525&first=4360&end=4359&survey=1
        > >> Bob
        > >> Nanaimo, BC
        > >
        > >Hi Bob, don't you have a better deep link to the
        > hub motor in
        > >question. I like such motors. The first electric
        > hub motor was
        > >created around 1900 by Ferdinand Porsche in
        > Vienna/Austria.
        > >In Berlin/Germany I sell the Barth E-Fix scooter,
        > >hp: www.e-roller.de
        > >with a built-in-wheel motor from Barth. It has a
        > 93%
        > >efficiency on the test stand and the scooter makes
        > 50km from 1kWh.
        > >This hub engine with 300W outperfomes 800W with
        > gears and belt.
        > >
        > >Best regards, Hans U. Scholz
        > >
        >
        > Can you lend perspective on any safety issues that
        > come with putting
        > motors on 2 wheeled vehicles? Years ago I read of a
        > more enclosed
        > shell-like structure on a European motorcycle, and I
        > thought that was
        > an interesting trend, but I haven't seen it in the
        > states.
        >
        > In any case, in the one article I did where I test
        > drove a couple of
        > different e-bikes, this safety issue was always on
        > my mind.
        >
        > MM
        >


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      • Johann Joseph
        I wrote to tidalforce. They are the manufacturer of the ebikes using the wavecrest motor. They said the police/military versions are currently only available
        Message 3 of 18 , May 27, 2003
          I wrote to tidalforce. They are the manufacturer of the ebikes
          using the wavecrest motor. They said the police/military versions
          are currently only available to the police and military, but they
          have plans to sell it to the general public for $2k-$2500 late this
          year. They have a top speed of 30mph. I think they are limited to
          20mph and have a boost button to take it to 30mph.

          They said the IO will be available in the fall and will have a price
          tag of $1500-$2k.

          I want the police/military spec version myself. I can cruise to
          work on this every day unless it's raining. I have a hard time
          getting this lazy ass to pedal in the early morning. =) There are
          a couple of areas where a boost would help a lot. Oh, who the hell
          am I kidding, I'm going to be cruising at 30mph whenever I can. Yes
          it's illegal over 20mph on the road but if the local law enforcement
          won't stop cars from going 50 in a 35 and stop those annoying hopped
          up gas powered scooters going 30+ mph then I won't feel bad going
          30mph noise free and pollution free.


          --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "vancyclist" <vancyclist@y...> wrote:
          > URL of Wavecrest ebike test ride
          >
          > What do you think of this Wavecrest electric motor for e-bikes?
          >
          > http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?
          > storyid=525&first=4360&end=4359&survey=1
          >
          > What is the price of the Wavecrest ebike?
          >
          > Bob
          > Nanaimo, BC
        • scholzhu
          ... was ... Hello Murdoch, Your first para: Have a look at http://64.70.201.88/Roundel/1999/0499oth.htm If it is the BMW C1 you re thinking of it is somehow
          Message 4 of 18 , May 27, 2003
            >
            > Can you lend perspective on any safety issues that come with putting
            > motors on 2 wheeled vehicles? Years ago I read of a more enclosed
            > shell-like structure on a European motorcycle, and I thought that
            was
            > an interesting trend, but I haven't seen it in the states.
            >
            > In any case, in the one article I did where I test drove a couple of
            > different e-bikes, this safety issue was always on my mind.
            >
            > MM

            Hello Murdoch,

            Your first para: Have a look at
            http://64.70.201.88/Roundel/1999/0499oth.htm
            If it is the BMW C1 you're thinking of it is somehow different to
            other scooters. Here in Germany you have to buckle up with it and
            like a car driver you don't have to wear a helmet, on all others a
            helmet is a must. In G. it is not a success and production I guess is
            concentrated now in Italy.

            Your second para: From my point of view the safety issue is more
            severe for bikes without motor.
            i. Motors immediately challenge law makers to bother the user with
            regulations. Riding a bike I can go 50mph downhill with a self (ill-)
            maintained one without helmet etc. An E-bike or similar scooter is
            limited to 13mph (no helmet required). Once the scooter is licensed
            to more speed stiff regulations apply.
            ii. I would love to give to a mother cycling with her child to the
            nursery (we have that here) an engine, improving her concentration on
            the traffic and saving her body energy for critical situations in
            case they occur.
            iii. The scooter I have has a weight of solid 50kgs and equipped with
            proper acceleration and brakes gives a comfortable straight forward
            ride in contrast to balancing a (semi-)collapsible scooter on a
            zigzag route. (semi=not made for but doing so).
            iv. With regard to improving fitness on a bike I recommend to avoid
            traffic and to pedal inside but have a helping motor and enjoy more
            of the nature when cruising with 15mph outside.

            Hans
          • scholzhu
            ... Dear NT, soon I will start with English on my site www.e-roller.de. The scooter is legally allowed to make 20km/h=12.9mph but with fully charged batteries
            Message 5 of 18 , May 27, 2003
              --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Yodda Pierce <ntsl532@y...> wrote:

              > As for the EVworld article, I got an error when I
              > clicked on it, and my German is rather weak at best,
              > so I'm left wondering about the other information.
              > 50 Km for 1 Kwh sounds nice, but at what speed. And
              > what about endothermic and exothermic battery losses?
              > At a 300 Watt drain rate is there significant battery
              > degradation, cycle life loss, etc. Is the system 12 V,
              > 24 V, 36 V? Thanks.
              >
              > NT

              Dear NT, soon I will start with English on my site www.e-roller.de.
              The scooter is legally allowed to make 20km/h=12.9mph but with fully
              charged batteries makes 16mph. The standard batteries are 2 x NiCd
              30V/7Ah. 2 sets to completely unload one and going back to the juice
              with the other to reduce the memory effect. Through the EV-
              World newsletter I came into contact with Evercel and received NiZn
              samples for testing. I made the 50km=31miles with 1kWh at 13mph and
              it took such a long time I had to stop before completely unloading
              the NiZn M40 with 24V in series and 40Ah. Have a look at
              www.evercel.com , they claim to make more than 500 cycles on high
              current applications.

              Regards Hans
            • murdoch
              Thanks much for the insights. MM
              Message 6 of 18 , May 27, 2003
                Thanks much for the insights.

                MM


                >Hello Murdoch,
                >
                >Your first para: Have a look at
                >http://64.70.201.88/Roundel/1999/0499oth.htm
                >If it is the BMW C1 you're thinking of it is somehow different to
                >other scooters. Here in Germany you have to buckle up with it and
                >like a car driver you don't have to wear a helmet, on all others a
                >helmet is a must. In G. it is not a success and production I guess is
                >concentrated now in Italy.
                >
                >Your second para: From my point of view the safety issue is more
                >severe for bikes without motor.
                >i. Motors immediately challenge law makers to bother the user with
                >regulations. Riding a bike I can go 50mph downhill with a self (ill-)
                >maintained one without helmet etc. An E-bike or similar scooter is
                >limited to 13mph (no helmet required). Once the scooter is licensed
                >to more speed stiff regulations apply.
                >ii. I would love to give to a mother cycling with her child to the
                >nursery (we have that here) an engine, improving her concentration on
                >the traffic and saving her body energy for critical situations in
                >case they occur.
                >iii. The scooter I have has a weight of solid 50kgs and equipped with
                >proper acceleration and brakes gives a comfortable straight forward
                >ride in contrast to balancing a (semi-)collapsible scooter on a
                >zigzag route. (semi=not made for but doing so).
                >iv. With regard to improving fitness on a bike I recommend to avoid
                >traffic and to pedal inside but have a helping motor and enjoy more
                >of the nature when cruising with 15mph outside.
                >
                >Hans
                >
                >
                >
                >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • murdoch
                PS: For what it s worth, the article I did was partly about nycewheels.com in NYC (the other part was about a proprietor in San Diego). I m not sure why but I
                Message 7 of 18 , May 27, 2003
                  PS:

                  For what it's worth, the article I did was partly about nycewheels.com
                  in NYC (the other part was about a proprietor in San Diego). I'm not
                  sure why but I got the impression that the owner Bert was either
                  German-speaking or perhaps some other Northern European language. He
                  had a good niche targeted because at the time there didn't seem to be
                  too many stores targeting the New York City market. He is still
                  around (a good achievement for a business that was just starting) and
                  once in awhile his website sends out an update if you might get
                  something from the contact or if you might enjoy reading it.

                  MM

                  >
                  >Hello Murdoch,
                  >
                  >Your first para: Have a look at
                  >http://64.70.201.88/Roundel/1999/0499oth.htm
                  >If it is the BMW C1 you're thinking of it is somehow different to
                  >other scooters. Here in Germany you have to buckle up with it and
                  >like a car driver you don't have to wear a helmet, on all others a
                  >helmet is a must. In G. it is not a success and production I guess is
                  >concentrated now in Italy.
                  >
                  >Your second para: From my point of view the safety issue is more
                  >severe for bikes without motor.
                  >i. Motors immediately challenge law makers to bother the user with
                  >regulations. Riding a bike I can go 50mph downhill with a self (ill-)
                  >maintained one without helmet etc. An E-bike or similar scooter is
                  >limited to 13mph (no helmet required). Once the scooter is licensed
                  >to more speed stiff regulations apply.
                  >ii. I would love to give to a mother cycling with her child to the
                  >nursery (we have that here) an engine, improving her concentration on
                  >the traffic and saving her body energy for critical situations in
                  >case they occur.
                  >iii. The scooter I have has a weight of solid 50kgs and equipped with
                  >proper acceleration and brakes gives a comfortable straight forward
                  >ride in contrast to balancing a (semi-)collapsible scooter on a
                  >zigzag route. (semi=not made for but doing so).
                  >iv. With regard to improving fitness on a bike I recommend to avoid
                  >traffic and to pedal inside but have a helping motor and enjoy more
                  >of the nature when cruising with 15mph outside.
                  >
                  >Hans
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                  RE: Safety concerns. When I was Product Engineer for Charger Electric Bikes, we made a very safe electric bicycle. The controller sensed torque on the crank
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 27, 2003
                    RE: Safety concerns. When I was Product Engineer for Charger
                    Electric Bikes, we made a very safe electric bicycle. The controller
                    sensed torque on the crank and multiplied it by up to 4 times. This
                    created a "bionic bicycle" which was very safe because the bike would
                    not go forward unless you were pushing on the pedals. The down side
                    was, nobody wanted to buy the bike because, well, Americans are lazy
                    and did not want to pedal at all.

                    You can get a great deal on leftover Chargers at electroportal.com.

                    As to the hub motor. 93% efficient???!!! Is this a direct-drive
                    unit? All the hub motors I have seen have used some form of planetary
                    gear setup. Even if you have a very efficient electric motor, you
                    could not get 93% efficiency downstream of a planetary transmission,
                    which would be inherently less efficient than a belt or chain drive
                    transmission. If it is direct drive, how did you do it? Many people
                    have been trying to figure out how to make a direct drive hub motor,
                    and I have not heard of anyone else having such a breakthrough.

                    As to a 300W system outperforming an 800W system, I guess if the
                    system was 8/3 times as efficient, you could make this statement.
                    However, the electric drivetrains on the Charger, Currie and most
                    other popular electric bicycles are well over 50% efficient.
                    Therefore, this claim would not hold up when compared to these
                    electric bicycles, even if the claimed 93% efficiency is correct.
                    Depnding on how you gear it, I suppose you could say that certain
                    performance characteristics (eg acceleration OR top speed) were
                    better, but the overall power available at the drive wheel would not
                    greater.

                    Then again, perhaps I am missing something.

                    Respectfully,

                    Forbes Bagatelle-Black

                    --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:

                    > >Hi Bob, don't you have a better deep link to the hub motor in
                    > >question. I like such motors. The first electric hub motor was
                    > >created around 1900 by Ferdinand Porsche in Vienna/Austria.
                    > >In Berlin/Germany I sell the Barth E-Fix scooter,
                    > >hp: www.e-roller.de
                    > >with a built-in-wheel motor from Barth. It has a 93%
                    > >efficiency on the test stand and the scooter makes 50km from 1kWh.
                    > >This hub engine with 300W outperfomes 800W with gears and belt.
                    > >
                    > >Best regards, Hans U. Scholz
                    > >
                    >
                    > Can you lend perspective on any safety issues that come with putting
                    > motors on 2 wheeled vehicles? Years ago I read of a more enclosed
                    > shell-like structure on a European motorcycle, and I thought that
                    was
                    > an interesting trend, but I haven't seen it in the states.
                    >
                    > In any case, in the one article I did where I test drove a couple of
                    > different e-bikes, this safety issue was always on my mind.
                    >
                    > MM
                  • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                    One thing to keep in mind with ZAP products is, unless things have changed in the last few years, they do not do any current-limiting in their controller.
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 27, 2003
                      One thing to keep in mind with ZAP products is, unless things have
                      changed in the last few years, they do not do any current-limiting in
                      their controller. Therefore, the user needs to be very aware of not
                      draining the battery to deeply on any given ride. If you ride the
                      bike until the battery is not giving you any more energy, you will
                      lose a lot of battery capacity in a relatively short amount of time (a
                      few weeks or months). On the other hand, if you make sure to charge
                      the battery before you get to a low state of charge, the battery will
                      last much, much longer.

                      -Forbes

                      --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Yodda Pierce <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                      > Interesting information!
                      >
                      > I just bought and attachment that converts a regular
                      > bicycle to an e-bike. It is a 168 watt motor with a
                      > small 7 A/h battery. The top end for the bike is
                      > about 11 MPH with a 10-15 mile range, but I do not
                      > like the fact that the drive does not have a solid
                      > connection. It is through a belt that contacts the
                      > tire. I think the manufacturer is Zapword and the
                      > product is the Zeta 3.
                      >
                      > As for the EVworld article, I got an error when I
                      > clicked on it, and my German is rather weak at best,
                      > so I'm left wondering about the other information.
                      > 50 Km for 1 Kwh sounds nice, but at what speed. And
                      > what about endothermic and exothermic battery losses?
                      > At a 300 Watt drain rate is there significant battery
                      > degradation, cycle life loss, etc. Is the system 12 V,
                      > 24 V, 36 V? Thanks.
                      >
                      > NT
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                      > > On Sun, 25 May 2003 16:12:49 -0000, you wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >> What do you think of this Wavecrest electric
                      > > motor for e-bikes?
                      > > >>
                      > > >>
                      > > http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?
                      > > >> storyid=525&first=4360&end=4359&survey=1
                      > > >> Bob
                      > > >> Nanaimo, BC
                      > > >
                      > > >Hi Bob, don't you have a better deep link to the
                      > > hub motor in
                      > > >question. I like such motors. The first electric
                      > > hub motor was
                      > > >created around 1900 by Ferdinand Porsche in
                      > > Vienna/Austria.
                      > > >In Berlin/Germany I sell the Barth E-Fix scooter,
                      > > >hp: www.e-roller.de
                      > > >with a built-in-wheel motor from Barth. It has a
                      > > 93%
                      > > >efficiency on the test stand and the scooter makes
                      > > 50km from 1kWh.
                      > > >This hub engine with 300W outperfomes 800W with
                      > > gears and belt.
                      > > >
                      > > >Best regards, Hans U. Scholz
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > Can you lend perspective on any safety issues that
                      > > come with putting
                      > > motors on 2 wheeled vehicles? Years ago I read of a
                      > > more enclosed
                      > > shell-like structure on a European motorcycle, and I
                      > > thought that was
                      > > an interesting trend, but I haven't seen it in the
                      > > states.
                      > >
                      > > In any case, in the one article I did where I test
                      > > drove a couple of
                      > > different e-bikes, this safety issue was always on
                      > > my mind.
                      > >
                      > > MM
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________
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                      > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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                    • scholzhu
                      ... Yes, of course. The manufacturer Barth ( www.barth- electricalmachines.de )is the patentholder for Germany covering there all applications water, air and
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 27, 2003
                        > As to the hub motor. 93% efficient???!!! Is this a direct-drive
                        > unit?

                        Yes, of course. The manufacturer Barth ( www.barth-
                        electricalmachines.de )is the patentholder for Germany covering there
                        all applications water, air and road. Once Mr. Hayek, the inventor of
                        the Swatch wrist watch, contacted Barth to develop this hub motor for
                        the Smart car and two working motors 10kW were left over the moment
                        Hayek sold the Smart to Daimler and they stopped (banned?) research
                        on the electrified Smart. Later Barth coverted an ordinary scooter
                        with a 2kW-wheel and Police showed some interest for this noiseless
                        70mph- going, mountain climbing two-wheelers. However, (sorry Mr.
                        Barth) Barth has no clue about marketing, so the whole development
                        went to sleep. For the time being the main activity is concentrated
                        on the 300-W-version.
                        The comparison 300W vs 800W you can have yourself. Take the MZ Charly
                        http://www.heeters.com/scooters.shtml#MZ (for the first time I see
                        there 750W) and the Barth E-Fix
                        http://www.barth-electricalmachines.de/efix.html
                        for a friend to watch his back becoming smaller and smaller at the
                        horizon.

                        with best regards, Hans, Berlin/Germany
                        ( http://www.e-roller/Parade/Potsdamer_Platz/potsdamer_platz.html )
                        sitting on the green one.
                      • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                        Speaking as an engineer at AeroVironment, Inc., I sure would like to get ahold of one of these motors for testing. We are considering certain projects which
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 28, 2003
                          Speaking as an engineer at AeroVironment, Inc., I sure would like to
                          get ahold of one of these motors for testing. We are considering
                          certain projects which could certainly use a motor like this. Let me
                          know if this would be possible. If you are not familiar with
                          AeroVironment, we developed the GM Impact (which later became the
                          EV1), the GM Sunracer, the Charger Electric Bicycle and recently the
                          Pathfinder aircraft that set the atmospheric altitude record of 96K+
                          feet.

                          Thanks.

                          Forbes

                          --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "scholzhu" <huscholz@t...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > As to the hub motor. 93% efficient???!!! Is this a direct-drive
                          > > unit?
                          >
                          > Yes, of course. The manufacturer Barth ( www.barth-
                          > electricalmachines.de )is the patentholder for Germany covering
                          there
                          > all applications water, air and road. Once Mr. Hayek, the inventor
                          of
                          > the Swatch wrist watch, contacted Barth to develop this hub motor
                          for
                          > the Smart car and two working motors 10kW were left over the moment
                          > Hayek sold the Smart to Daimler and they stopped (banned?) research
                          > on the electrified Smart. Later Barth coverted an ordinary scooter
                          > with a 2kW-wheel and Police showed some interest for this noiseless
                          > 70mph- going, mountain climbing two-wheelers. However, (sorry Mr.
                          > Barth) Barth has no clue about marketing, so the whole development
                          > went to sleep. For the time being the main activity is concentrated
                          > on the 300-W-version.
                          > The comparison 300W vs 800W you can have yourself. Take the MZ
                          Charly
                          > http://www.heeters.com/scooters.shtml#MZ (for the first time I see
                          > there 750W) and the Barth E-Fix
                          > http://www.barth-electricalmachines.de/efix.html
                          > for a friend to watch his back becoming smaller and smaller at the
                          > horizon.
                          >
                          > with best regards, Hans, Berlin/Germany
                          > ( http://www.e-roller/Parade/Potsdamer_Platz/potsdamer_platz.html )
                          > sitting on the green one.
                        • murdoch
                          ... Didn t you folks also have something to do with the plane that flew around the world on one tank of gas?
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 28, 2003
                            On Wed, 28 May 2003 16:24:02 -0000, you wrote:

                            >Speaking as an engineer at AeroVironment, Inc., I sure would like to
                            >get ahold of one of these motors for testing. We are considering
                            >certain projects which could certainly use a motor like this. Let me
                            >know if this would be possible. If you are not familiar with
                            >AeroVironment, we developed the GM Impact (which later became the
                            >EV1), the GM Sunracer, the Charger Electric Bicycle and recently the
                            >Pathfinder aircraft that set the atmospheric altitude record of 96K+
                            >feet.
                            >
                            >Thanks.
                            >
                            >Forbes

                            Didn't you folks also have something to do with the plane that flew
                            around the world on one tank of gas?
                          • murdoch
                            ... This seems like an interesting approach to the issue of 2-wheeled-vehicle safety. It s hard to predict what my first-hand reaction would be to the
                            Message 13 of 18 , May 28, 2003
                              On Tue, 27 May 2003 22:32:34 -0000, you wrote:

                              >RE: Safety concerns. When I was Product Engineer for Charger
                              >Electric Bikes, we made a very safe electric bicycle. The controller
                              >sensed torque on the crank and multiplied it by up to 4 times. This
                              >created a "bionic bicycle" which was very safe because the bike would
                              >not go forward unless you were pushing on the pedals. The down side
                              >was, nobody wanted to buy the bike because, well, Americans are lazy
                              >and did not want to pedal at all.

                              This seems like an interesting approach to the issue of
                              2-wheeled-vehicle safety. It's hard to predict what my first-hand
                              reaction would be to the vehicle. I think that even if it somewhat
                              improved operational safety, there would still be some concern.
                              2-wheeled vehicles, with no airbags, doors, whatever, may have less
                              for the occupant to crash into, but in sharing the road with so many
                              cars and pedestrians in urban environments, inevitably there will be
                              some crash. And when there is, I wonder what the stats are on the
                              health of the 2-wheel-drivers? I don't mean to be unrealistic.... it
                              will be many decades before we approach "perfection" on these safety
                              issues, but I think it's wise to ask questions and seek improvement.

                              The BMW appealed to me in the sense of trying a "shell" to keep the
                              occupant safe. Maybe if the shell could deploy only in dangerous
                              situations, it could do less to remove the positives of open-feeling
                              one gets from being on a motorcycle. I don't know (and never been on
                              one). Of course the BMW questions are a little different, as that is
                              a fully highway-fast vehicle.
                            • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                              Nope, but we did design and build the first solar powered plane and the human-powered plane that made it across the English channel. -Forbes ... to ... me ...
                              Message 14 of 18 , May 28, 2003
                                Nope, but we did design and build the first solar powered plane and
                                the human-powered plane that made it across the English channel.

                                -Forbes

                                --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                                > On Wed, 28 May 2003 16:24:02 -0000, you wrote:
                                >
                                > >Speaking as an engineer at AeroVironment, Inc., I sure would like
                                to
                                > >get ahold of one of these motors for testing. We are considering
                                > >certain projects which could certainly use a motor like this. Let
                                me
                                > >know if this would be possible. If you are not familiar with
                                > >AeroVironment, we developed the GM Impact (which later became the
                                > >EV1), the GM Sunracer, the Charger Electric Bicycle and recently
                                the
                                > >Pathfinder aircraft that set the atmospheric altitude record of
                                96K+
                                > >feet.
                                > >
                                > >Thanks.
                                > >
                                > >Forbes
                                >
                                > Didn't you folks also have something to do with the plane that flew
                                > around the world on one tank of gas?
                              • scholzhu
                                ... to ... me ... Hi, I have attached two pictures for you to my website: www.e-roller.de/simson1.jpg showing the Simson scooter converted by Barth and
                                Message 15 of 18 , May 28, 2003
                                  --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Forbes Bagatelle-Black"
                                  <diarmaede@y...> wrote:
                                  > Speaking as an engineer at AeroVironment, Inc., I sure would like
                                  to
                                  > get ahold of one of these motors for testing. We are considering
                                  > certain projects which could certainly use a motor like this. Let
                                  me
                                  > know if this would be possible.

                                  Hi, I have attached two pictures for you to my website:
                                  www.e-roller.de/simson1.jpg showing the Simson scooter converted by
                                  Barth and
                                  www.e-roller.de/simson2.jpg with the 2kW hub motor direct drive,
                                  unfortunately my source was a magazine.

                                  To contact Mr. Barth please email to chief@... .

                                  Respectfully, Hans
                                • Johann Joseph
                                  Well because of Forbes post, I just picked up a Charger LX model today from electroportal. Sam, the owner, is a great guy and we talked and test rode bikes
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 1, 2003
                                    Well because of Forbes post, I just picked up a Charger LX model
                                    today from electroportal. Sam, the owner, is a great guy and we
                                    talked and test rode bikes for 3 hours.

                                    I put the bike together in a casual 2.5 hours. It would have been 2
                                    hours if I stopped to read the directions for the front brakes which
                                    took me the longest to adjust. But that's just the way I am. :?)

                                    I didn't get much chance to ride around yet, just around the block.
                                    It's a true pedal assist bike because you have to pedal it for the
                                    motor to kick in. It'll give me exercise but I can get to work
                                    faster too. In fact, I can use it more for short errands and such
                                    instead of getting in my car now.

                                    The Shimano Nexus gear and break system is something that I've never
                                    seen before. Really intriguing how it works and I'm going to try to
                                    learn about it more. It's cool that you can be at a stop and change
                                    gears without pedaling.

                                    The electric assist is great. I found an EV grin on my face zipping
                                    along at a decent speed with just a bit of power from my legs. The
                                    battery management and charger are integrated into the removable
                                    battery pack. Well thought out. The battery management prevents
                                    the user from discharging the battery to dangerously low levels that
                                    would damage the pack. The speed sensor stops motor assist if you
                                    go over 20mph. Legal thing. I don't understand why we limit
                                    electric bicycles speed but cars can go 140+ mph (well my car can :)

                                    I think I could use some higher gears so that I can go faster. But
                                    we'll see after several more runs. I think the gearing for the
                                    pedals was decided on so that it could not go much faster than
                                    20mph. I'm in good shape and had to pedal pretty quickly to get the
                                    motor to kick out. It's difficult to go faster than 20mph because
                                    when the motor kicks out you loose lots of power from the motor and
                                    you feel the bog in your legs which makes you slow down. And then
                                    you are in a cycle of boost, no boost, boost no boost. And I decide
                                    to settle my peddaling down just below the cut off point even though
                                    I want to go a bit faster...maybe 25mph or so.

                                    I'm going to adjust the speed sensor to trick it that I'm going
                                    slower than it thinks like this guy did on his charger bike.
                                    http://www.chargerbike.com/tech.html
                                    He's now able to go 22-28mph which should be satisfactory to me.
                                    Technically illegal...but so are the people that are breaking the
                                    automotive speed limit every day and the modified gas powered
                                    scooters that zip along at close to 30mph making noise like an angry
                                    bumblebee.

                                    And the price couldn't be more competitive. Other e-bikes I was
                                    looking at such as the motobob or the slipstream would have cost
                                    about the same except that I would have had to provide the bike
                                    which would have been a couple hundred dollars alone. An amazing,
                                    amazing deal.


                                    --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Forbes Bagatelle-Black"
                                    <diarmaede@y...> wrote:
                                    > RE: Safety concerns. When I was Product Engineer for Charger
                                    > Electric Bikes, we made a very safe electric bicycle. The
                                    >controller sensed torque on the crank and multiplied it by up to 4
                                    >times. This created a "bionic bicycle" which was very safe because
                                    >the bike would not go forward unless you were pushing on the
                                    > pedals. The down side was, nobody wanted to buy the bike because,
                                    > well, Americans are lazy and did not want to pedal at all.
                                    > You can get a great deal on leftover Chargers at electroportal.com.
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