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Re: Perpetual Electricity Machine?

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  • milaroo <mila@speakeasy.org>
    The company web site talks about connecting the Edison Device to the customer s side of the gas line and adding flow restrictors to all your gas appliances
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 10, 2002
      The company web site talks about connecting the "Edison Device" to
      the customer's side of the gas line and adding flow restrictors to
      all your gas appliances in order to convert them to run on hydrogen.
      And then they go on to say that your house will be totally off
      utilities. So I took that to mean that their device would generate
      electricity to power your home and hydrogen to use for your gas
      appliances.

      Since EV World ran with this story and if true it will change the
      course of history (I mean, why go to war with Iraq if we can make an
      ulimited amount of power from water), perhaps EV World can do a
      follow up fact finding story on this company and device.

      Conserving minds want to know...

      Thanks,

      -- Mike

      --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
      > Anyway, taking a somewhat less critical tack, if they can install a
      > decent (and safe) home fuel cell and hydrolysis concept then good.
      > Usually I pay attention when home-fuel-cell installation is
      discussed,
      > particularly if it talks about using natural gas, since so many
      homes
      > are already set up for that. Their discussion of using the natural
      > gas infrastcture seems to indicate they'd store the hydrogen there
      > perhaps? Maybe not. I wonder if they're also cheating (by the
      > standards they give) and using some natural gas to make the hydrogen
      > or to make electricity? (Hydrogen atoms are stripped from CH4 to
      make
      > Hydrogen for fuel cells. CH4 is methane which I believe is the
      basic
      > component of what we call Natural Gas.)
    • James Slayden
      Here is what I got from the story and looking at the site. They are using a propritery method using thermo-electric and water to seperate the hydrogen out of
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 11, 2002
        Here is what I got from the story and looking at the site. They are using
        a propritery method using thermo-electric and water to seperate the
        hydrogen out of the water. It seems that they first heat the water to
        excite the atoms to loosen the bond then break them with electricity.
        They might even have a special catalystic metal in the stack helping
        things more. It indicates that very little electrical energy goes into
        the process, which makes me wonder how much thermal energy is being
        utilized. It would be good if they provided a total energy analysis to
        verify the numbers.

        James Slayden

        On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, murdoch wrote:

        > >If this story is true, this breakthrough should change the world. I
        > >am skeptical. What do you think?
        >
        > I am skeptical also.
        >
        > Let's say for the sake of discussion that they do have some decent
        > fuel cell technology lined up. Not unusual. And let's say they have
        > some hydrolysis technology lined up as well. Other folks have worked
        > on a reverse fuel cell concept (ECD?).
        >
        > Either their claims as to the amounts of energy are total nonsense or,
        > it would appear, they have found a way to bypass laws of science as
        > science is presently understood.
        >
        > In recent years I think some companies have come out with somewhat
        > less ambitious claims as to improving hydrolysis efficiencies (long a
        > problem I think) and-or improving a reverse fuel cell sort of concept
        > (in addition to ECD I think one of the Japanese companies has come
        > up).
        >
        > Anyway, taking a somewhat less critical tack, if they can install a
        > decent (and safe) home fuel cell and hydrolysis concept then good.
        > Usually I pay attention when home-fuel-cell installation is discussed,
        > particularly if it talks about using natural gas, since so many homes
        > are already set up for that. Their discussion of using the natural
        > gas infrastcture seems to indicate they'd store the hydrogen there
        > perhaps? Maybe not. I wonder if they're also cheating (by the
        > standards they give) and using some natural gas to make the hydrogen
        > or to make electricity? (Hydrogen atoms are stripped from CH4 to make
        > Hydrogen for fuel cells. CH4 is methane which I believe is the basic
        > component of what we call Natural Gas.)
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
      • murdoch
        ... Hi again Mike: If you don t mind, I m going to use your letter as a foil to list a few of the ideas I ve had on my mind. First, you re absolutely right,
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 11, 2002
          >Since EV World ran with this story and if true it will change the
          >course of history (I mean, why go to war with Iraq if we can make an
          >ulimited amount of power from water), perhaps EV World can do a
          >follow up fact finding story on this company and device.
          >
          >Conserving minds want to know...
          >
          >Thanks,
          >
          >-- Mike

          Hi again Mike:

          If you don't mind, I'm going to use your letter as a foil to list a
          few of the ideas I've had on my mind.

          First, you're absolutely right, one of the things I have in mind for
          this forum is for readers to express what they think would be good
          stories or where they'd like to see followup.

          Just as there is innovation in the engineering of vehicles and
          drivetrains and environmental remediation, and just as we seek
          innovation in political philosophy as it relates to environmental
          concerns, so too we are in a time of extreme innovation in publishing.
          So, this means that readers and editors can interact much more
          quickly, much more directly and perhaps to somewhat greater effect.

          (Note: I haven't checked with Bill Moore how often, if at all, he has
          been reading this forum, and I think we're in a particular "brownout"
          period in a way this week, because between the CARB meetings and the
          EV conference in Florida, most of the EV news-ish people I know are
          busy and not at home or nearly incommunicado).

          In the case of the particular article you mention:

          http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01

          Note that it's something we seemed to be running more by way of
          passing it on than anything we did originally. The original source is
          cited as "PR Newsire", so, in other words, it doesn't even look like a
          news story so much as a Press Release from (I assume) the company
          itself.

          Obviously, we pass on a lot of articles that are not Press Releases
          but rather more mainstream-type ones. We will carry some PR releases
          if the news can't be found elsewhere, and perhaps out of respect the
          difficulties a small company has in getting its information out there,
          but I just personally exercise extra reading-caution when I see PR
          stories, particularly if the company is publicly traded or looks like
          it might be at some point.

          In the fuel cell publicly-traded company area, I've read a lot of
          press releases, and have grown cynical and weary of them, for right or
          for wrong. Or I've always been somewhat cynical of them.

          This is not to say at all that they're all full of nonsense, or that
          this particular company doesn't have something, or that the field is
          not legit. But there's a LOT of nonsense out there, so I just keep
          that in mind.

          Although I occassionally contribute an original article to
          evworld.com, it's not something I have the resources to follow up on
          full-time. So, on the matter of evworld.com followup, I think maybe
          this forum will help a little with that. So, if an author submits and
          article but then loses track of things for a few weeks, and one or
          two points are raised in reaction to an article, this forum might be a
          good compromise place to, quick-and-dirty, post some followup.

          I've been able to do a little of that here, particularly because I got
          comments from readers that put things better than I did in the
          article.

          A couple of last things for now:

          There are a zillion places I'd go to track down info on this or other
          fuel cell developments.

          www.ch2bc.org or
          www.h2fc.com
          (with which I have slight connection) or
          www.h2fuelcells.org (with which I have connection)

          Many others. So, in the event that evworld.com is not able to follow
          up on this, perhaps other places will still be able to do so.

          But what I wanted to say, also, is that we depend a lot on reader
          contributions for articles, and in fact, I think that one article
          (rather than a regular column) written by a really motivated
          knowledgeable articulate person making a particular point of doing a
          great job is often the best kind, as they have a collected area of
          expertise and perhaps they've been waiting for the right forum to
          which to compose and contribute their ideas.

          So, under those circumstances, readers should be encouraged to think
          of evworld.com as a place possibly to publish something some day, if
          they really think they can compose their thoughts into a good article.
          The way to do it is to establish communication with the editor (not
          me), flesh out why they think the trouble could be worthwhile, and
          then if he approves, get to work. Even then, it might not work out,
          but if it does, one thing is that you get published, and it's on a
          topic that interests you and others, and they appreciate the work you
          did.

          Just today, for example, I saw an ad on www.waterinvestments.com which
          said "get published, submit an article" or something. We don't have
          the backing that that site has, but I think it's kind of the same
          principle.

          Anyway, I have an idea for an article or two I'd like to see, so I am
          going to post that idea in my next post, in case anyone is reading,
          and is in the field of auto insurance or some such, and might like to
          think about it.

          MM
        • milaroo <mila@speakeasy.org>
          ... an ... Great. I joined the list because I wanted to ask about this article. I wasn t even sure how involved evworld.com was with this discussion list, but
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 11, 2002
            --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
            > >Since EV World ran with this story and if true it will change the
            > >course of history (I mean, why go to war with Iraq if we can make
            an
            > >ulimited amount of power from water), perhaps EV World can do a
            > >follow up fact finding story on this company and device.
            > >
            > >Conserving minds want to know...
            > >
            > >Thanks,
            > >
            > >-- Mike
            >
            > Hi again Mike:
            >
            > If you don't mind, I'm going to use your letter as a foil to list a
            > few of the ideas I've had on my mind.
            >
            > First, you're absolutely right, one of the things I have in mind for
            > this forum is for readers to express what they think would be good
            > stories or where they'd like to see followup.

            Great. I joined the list because I wanted to ask about this article.
            I wasn't even sure how involved evworld.com was with this discussion
            list, but your reply seems to indicate that the editor sometimes
            reads this and I infer that you work for evworld. Good!

            > In the case of the particular article you mention:
            >
            > http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01
            >
            > Note that it's something we seemed to be running more by way of
            > passing it on than anything we did originally. The original source
            is
            > cited as "PR Newsire", so, in other words, it doesn't even look
            like a
            > news story so much as a Press Release from (I assume) the company
            > itself.

            I would like to express my concern about passing along articles like
            this one (which I have concluded is false) is risky business. I
            realize that evworld.com is passing along items of interest to it's
            readership, but I still feel that before passing them along some fact
            checking should be done. In this case the claims being made are so
            sensational that I found it amazing that it wasn't being picked up by
            more mainstream press if it were true. Upon reading the company's web
            site, other statements there made me more suspicious that the claims
            being made are untrue. Yesterday afternoon I did find some discussion
            of the article on another bulletin board and the conclusion there was
            that what the company is claiming cannot be possible without
            violating the laws of thermodynamics. This was my feeling from the
            beginning and I joined this group to see what if any fact checking
            had been done by evworld.com before forwarding the article.

            I would argue that passing along false statements is not in the
            interest of your readership, however on topic those statements are,
            and therefore the stories that are sent out should be checked first.
            Unfortunately, it makes me more skeptical of EVERYTHING I read on
            your site. Sorry, that's just the way my mind works, but don't feel
            bad you are in good company with CNN, LA Times, etc.

            Thanks for listening and I do enjoy your evworld updates, but now I
            know that I am the fact checker and not evworld.

            -- Mike
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