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Re: [evworld] Perpetual Electricity Machine?

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  • murdoch
    ... I am skeptical also. Let s say for the sake of discussion that they do have some decent fuel cell technology lined up. Not unusual. And let s say they
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 10, 2002
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      >If this story is true, this breakthrough should change the world. I
      >am skeptical. What do you think?

      I am skeptical also.

      Let's say for the sake of discussion that they do have some decent
      fuel cell technology lined up. Not unusual. And let's say they have
      some hydrolysis technology lined up as well. Other folks have worked
      on a reverse fuel cell concept (ECD?).

      Either their claims as to the amounts of energy are total nonsense or,
      it would appear, they have found a way to bypass laws of science as
      science is presently understood.

      In recent years I think some companies have come out with somewhat
      less ambitious claims as to improving hydrolysis efficiencies (long a
      problem I think) and-or improving a reverse fuel cell sort of concept
      (in addition to ECD I think one of the Japanese companies has come
      up).

      Anyway, taking a somewhat less critical tack, if they can install a
      decent (and safe) home fuel cell and hydrolysis concept then good.
      Usually I pay attention when home-fuel-cell installation is discussed,
      particularly if it talks about using natural gas, since so many homes
      are already set up for that. Their discussion of using the natural
      gas infrastcture seems to indicate they'd store the hydrogen there
      perhaps? Maybe not. I wonder if they're also cheating (by the
      standards they give) and using some natural gas to make the hydrogen
      or to make electricity? (Hydrogen atoms are stripped from CH4 to make
      Hydrogen for fuel cells. CH4 is methane which I believe is the basic
      component of what we call Natural Gas.)
    • milaroo <mila@speakeasy.org>
      The company web site talks about connecting the Edison Device to the customer s side of the gas line and adding flow restrictors to all your gas appliances
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 10, 2002
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        The company web site talks about connecting the "Edison Device" to
        the customer's side of the gas line and adding flow restrictors to
        all your gas appliances in order to convert them to run on hydrogen.
        And then they go on to say that your house will be totally off
        utilities. So I took that to mean that their device would generate
        electricity to power your home and hydrogen to use for your gas
        appliances.

        Since EV World ran with this story and if true it will change the
        course of history (I mean, why go to war with Iraq if we can make an
        ulimited amount of power from water), perhaps EV World can do a
        follow up fact finding story on this company and device.

        Conserving minds want to know...

        Thanks,

        -- Mike

        --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
        > Anyway, taking a somewhat less critical tack, if they can install a
        > decent (and safe) home fuel cell and hydrolysis concept then good.
        > Usually I pay attention when home-fuel-cell installation is
        discussed,
        > particularly if it talks about using natural gas, since so many
        homes
        > are already set up for that. Their discussion of using the natural
        > gas infrastcture seems to indicate they'd store the hydrogen there
        > perhaps? Maybe not. I wonder if they're also cheating (by the
        > standards they give) and using some natural gas to make the hydrogen
        > or to make electricity? (Hydrogen atoms are stripped from CH4 to
        make
        > Hydrogen for fuel cells. CH4 is methane which I believe is the
        basic
        > component of what we call Natural Gas.)
      • James Slayden
        Here is what I got from the story and looking at the site. They are using a propritery method using thermo-electric and water to seperate the hydrogen out of
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 11, 2002
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          Here is what I got from the story and looking at the site. They are using
          a propritery method using thermo-electric and water to seperate the
          hydrogen out of the water. It seems that they first heat the water to
          excite the atoms to loosen the bond then break them with electricity.
          They might even have a special catalystic metal in the stack helping
          things more. It indicates that very little electrical energy goes into
          the process, which makes me wonder how much thermal energy is being
          utilized. It would be good if they provided a total energy analysis to
          verify the numbers.

          James Slayden

          On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, murdoch wrote:

          > >If this story is true, this breakthrough should change the world. I
          > >am skeptical. What do you think?
          >
          > I am skeptical also.
          >
          > Let's say for the sake of discussion that they do have some decent
          > fuel cell technology lined up. Not unusual. And let's say they have
          > some hydrolysis technology lined up as well. Other folks have worked
          > on a reverse fuel cell concept (ECD?).
          >
          > Either their claims as to the amounts of energy are total nonsense or,
          > it would appear, they have found a way to bypass laws of science as
          > science is presently understood.
          >
          > In recent years I think some companies have come out with somewhat
          > less ambitious claims as to improving hydrolysis efficiencies (long a
          > problem I think) and-or improving a reverse fuel cell sort of concept
          > (in addition to ECD I think one of the Japanese companies has come
          > up).
          >
          > Anyway, taking a somewhat less critical tack, if they can install a
          > decent (and safe) home fuel cell and hydrolysis concept then good.
          > Usually I pay attention when home-fuel-cell installation is discussed,
          > particularly if it talks about using natural gas, since so many homes
          > are already set up for that. Their discussion of using the natural
          > gas infrastcture seems to indicate they'd store the hydrogen there
          > perhaps? Maybe not. I wonder if they're also cheating (by the
          > standards they give) and using some natural gas to make the hydrogen
          > or to make electricity? (Hydrogen atoms are stripped from CH4 to make
          > Hydrogen for fuel cells. CH4 is methane which I believe is the basic
          > component of what we call Natural Gas.)
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
        • murdoch
          ... Hi again Mike: If you don t mind, I m going to use your letter as a foil to list a few of the ideas I ve had on my mind. First, you re absolutely right,
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 11, 2002
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            >Since EV World ran with this story and if true it will change the
            >course of history (I mean, why go to war with Iraq if we can make an
            >ulimited amount of power from water), perhaps EV World can do a
            >follow up fact finding story on this company and device.
            >
            >Conserving minds want to know...
            >
            >Thanks,
            >
            >-- Mike

            Hi again Mike:

            If you don't mind, I'm going to use your letter as a foil to list a
            few of the ideas I've had on my mind.

            First, you're absolutely right, one of the things I have in mind for
            this forum is for readers to express what they think would be good
            stories or where they'd like to see followup.

            Just as there is innovation in the engineering of vehicles and
            drivetrains and environmental remediation, and just as we seek
            innovation in political philosophy as it relates to environmental
            concerns, so too we are in a time of extreme innovation in publishing.
            So, this means that readers and editors can interact much more
            quickly, much more directly and perhaps to somewhat greater effect.

            (Note: I haven't checked with Bill Moore how often, if at all, he has
            been reading this forum, and I think we're in a particular "brownout"
            period in a way this week, because between the CARB meetings and the
            EV conference in Florida, most of the EV news-ish people I know are
            busy and not at home or nearly incommunicado).

            In the case of the particular article you mention:

            http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01

            Note that it's something we seemed to be running more by way of
            passing it on than anything we did originally. The original source is
            cited as "PR Newsire", so, in other words, it doesn't even look like a
            news story so much as a Press Release from (I assume) the company
            itself.

            Obviously, we pass on a lot of articles that are not Press Releases
            but rather more mainstream-type ones. We will carry some PR releases
            if the news can't be found elsewhere, and perhaps out of respect the
            difficulties a small company has in getting its information out there,
            but I just personally exercise extra reading-caution when I see PR
            stories, particularly if the company is publicly traded or looks like
            it might be at some point.

            In the fuel cell publicly-traded company area, I've read a lot of
            press releases, and have grown cynical and weary of them, for right or
            for wrong. Or I've always been somewhat cynical of them.

            This is not to say at all that they're all full of nonsense, or that
            this particular company doesn't have something, or that the field is
            not legit. But there's a LOT of nonsense out there, so I just keep
            that in mind.

            Although I occassionally contribute an original article to
            evworld.com, it's not something I have the resources to follow up on
            full-time. So, on the matter of evworld.com followup, I think maybe
            this forum will help a little with that. So, if an author submits and
            article but then loses track of things for a few weeks, and one or
            two points are raised in reaction to an article, this forum might be a
            good compromise place to, quick-and-dirty, post some followup.

            I've been able to do a little of that here, particularly because I got
            comments from readers that put things better than I did in the
            article.

            A couple of last things for now:

            There are a zillion places I'd go to track down info on this or other
            fuel cell developments.

            www.ch2bc.org or
            www.h2fc.com
            (with which I have slight connection) or
            www.h2fuelcells.org (with which I have connection)

            Many others. So, in the event that evworld.com is not able to follow
            up on this, perhaps other places will still be able to do so.

            But what I wanted to say, also, is that we depend a lot on reader
            contributions for articles, and in fact, I think that one article
            (rather than a regular column) written by a really motivated
            knowledgeable articulate person making a particular point of doing a
            great job is often the best kind, as they have a collected area of
            expertise and perhaps they've been waiting for the right forum to
            which to compose and contribute their ideas.

            So, under those circumstances, readers should be encouraged to think
            of evworld.com as a place possibly to publish something some day, if
            they really think they can compose their thoughts into a good article.
            The way to do it is to establish communication with the editor (not
            me), flesh out why they think the trouble could be worthwhile, and
            then if he approves, get to work. Even then, it might not work out,
            but if it does, one thing is that you get published, and it's on a
            topic that interests you and others, and they appreciate the work you
            did.

            Just today, for example, I saw an ad on www.waterinvestments.com which
            said "get published, submit an article" or something. We don't have
            the backing that that site has, but I think it's kind of the same
            principle.

            Anyway, I have an idea for an article or two I'd like to see, so I am
            going to post that idea in my next post, in case anyone is reading,
            and is in the field of auto insurance or some such, and might like to
            think about it.

            MM
          • milaroo <mila@speakeasy.org>
            ... an ... Great. I joined the list because I wanted to ask about this article. I wasn t even sure how involved evworld.com was with this discussion list, but
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 11, 2002
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              --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
              > >Since EV World ran with this story and if true it will change the
              > >course of history (I mean, why go to war with Iraq if we can make
              an
              > >ulimited amount of power from water), perhaps EV World can do a
              > >follow up fact finding story on this company and device.
              > >
              > >Conserving minds want to know...
              > >
              > >Thanks,
              > >
              > >-- Mike
              >
              > Hi again Mike:
              >
              > If you don't mind, I'm going to use your letter as a foil to list a
              > few of the ideas I've had on my mind.
              >
              > First, you're absolutely right, one of the things I have in mind for
              > this forum is for readers to express what they think would be good
              > stories or where they'd like to see followup.

              Great. I joined the list because I wanted to ask about this article.
              I wasn't even sure how involved evworld.com was with this discussion
              list, but your reply seems to indicate that the editor sometimes
              reads this and I infer that you work for evworld. Good!

              > In the case of the particular article you mention:
              >
              > http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news071202-01
              >
              > Note that it's something we seemed to be running more by way of
              > passing it on than anything we did originally. The original source
              is
              > cited as "PR Newsire", so, in other words, it doesn't even look
              like a
              > news story so much as a Press Release from (I assume) the company
              > itself.

              I would like to express my concern about passing along articles like
              this one (which I have concluded is false) is risky business. I
              realize that evworld.com is passing along items of interest to it's
              readership, but I still feel that before passing them along some fact
              checking should be done. In this case the claims being made are so
              sensational that I found it amazing that it wasn't being picked up by
              more mainstream press if it were true. Upon reading the company's web
              site, other statements there made me more suspicious that the claims
              being made are untrue. Yesterday afternoon I did find some discussion
              of the article on another bulletin board and the conclusion there was
              that what the company is claiming cannot be possible without
              violating the laws of thermodynamics. This was my feeling from the
              beginning and I joined this group to see what if any fact checking
              had been done by evworld.com before forwarding the article.

              I would argue that passing along false statements is not in the
              interest of your readership, however on topic those statements are,
              and therefore the stories that are sent out should be checked first.
              Unfortunately, it makes me more skeptical of EVERYTHING I read on
              your site. Sorry, that's just the way my mind works, but don't feel
              bad you are in good company with CNN, LA Times, etc.

              Thanks for listening and I do enjoy your evworld updates, but now I
              know that I am the fact checker and not evworld.

              -- Mike
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