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Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] There is no one answer

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  • Robert Mills
    An interesting concept to be sure but; Less than 24 hours ago on 60 minutes, there was a program addressing a different concept than trust; the concept was
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 3, 2006
      An interesting concept to be sure but;

      Less than 24 hours ago on 60 minutes, there was a program addressing a different concept than trust; the concept was portable devices, phones, Ipods, laptops, etc.
      These devices being protable were being shown in all kinds of places; Starbucks, the patio at home, the bedroom, the car, the city park, etc.

      The underlying discussion involved the question of how does your boss know you are working? Their answer was the job got done didn't it.

      They then presented the bosses who said; it's ok by us as long as we get the work done, we don't really care if we see the employee or not. They also stated that there was no need of empty offices either which would save companys costs there as well.

      Maybe this trust of the employer and thus the commute problem may well be on it's way to being solved without any intervention.

      One might also credit this trust building concept to all the "work at home" jobs that exist today and the positive result they got as an employer by offering it. The job got done!!

      The only negative shown in this presentation by CBS was that of the employee always being on the move, car, train, bus, etc.... So the employee may well have the employers trust but is he or she solving energy consumption problems in the process?

      At the very least, it shows promise of doing so. At least it eliminates a "finite" daily commute and it's cost and energy issues.

      People who are willing to work don't need cops.
      People who cannot be trusted to work without a cop don't need the job.

      There are simply too many honest folks out there or this would not have gotten off the ground to begin with much less bloom as big as it has, as fast as it has.....

      We may well be solving our problem with energy consumption and not even be aware of doing it.

      Bob

      Dave Cline <davecline@...> wrote:
      We speak of the psychology of work.

      Of work, the lacking feature is trust. Managers do not trust those who work
      for them. Units of work are still not considered as discrete finishable
      units, but are time based. "I cannot trust you to get your work done, so I'm
      going to have to have you here to prove that you're at least pretending to
      work."

      I would venture to say that roughly half of all work done these days, in
      this country, is time based. The other half, information workers, work with
      units of packagable work. Not hours. The internet has given us the potential
      of freedom from having to be there to get work done. But do we take
      advantage of it? No.

      Until managers learn to trust. And workers earn that trust, the daily
      commute, regardless of length, will be the norm. And I would also posit that
      this trust will never be achieved. So buy electric, cuz' you're gonna be
      driving to your job for the rest of your life. :-)

      Dave Cline

      On 4/3/06, Eddie <eddiecolumbus@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Living 100 miles from work is assinine! I realize that some people
      > feel
      > > that they HAVE to, but the costs associated with it outweigh the
      > benefits.
      > > that would be like me living where I do and working in Des Moines!
      > > INSANITY!
      > Obviously most on this list would agree with wanting to live closer to
      > reduce one's impact on the environment, but one must look at the costs of
      > living in some cities (to say nothing of the quality of life issues).
      > Locally, taxes for the MOST modest home are $4000-5000 where I work, but
      > they are usually 1/3 of that if you are willing to commute 15-20 miles. I
      > do not live in a mega city, so I would expect the numbers climb quite
      > rapidly in places where rent can be $2000 per month for a shoebox of an
      > apartment.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------
      >



      --
      Dave Cline
      www.davecline.com/
      davecline@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Dave Cline
      I sure hope you re right. I, myself, telecommute. My commute is 10 steps to the den. I built trust by, yes indeed, getting the job done. Two points: the
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 3, 2006
        I sure hope you're right.

        I, myself, telecommute. My "commute" is 10 steps to the den. I built trust
        by, yes indeed, getting the job done.

        Two points:
        the evidence I see with the swelling number of commuters out there certainly
        speaks to the opposite of this telecommute trend. It will eventually take
        over, but that eventually may take tens of years. And think of the mistrust
        of all the Indian and Chinese IT managers who will demand that they see
        their info-workers F2F. How do you know when you've made middle class in
        Bangalore or Peking? It's when you own a car. (and can drive to work???)

        If this emmigration to the Starbucks and home offices is successful, and
        happens quickly, does this foretell the death of the inner city? If every
        info-worker in San Francisco suddenly stayed home to work, the
        city-by-the-bay would sure be one empty place.

        -dc

        On 4/3/06, Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote:
        >
        > An interesting concept to be sure but;
        >
        > Less than 24 hours ago on 60 minutes, there was a program addressing a
        > different concept than trust; the concept was portable devices, phones,
        > Ipods, laptops, etc.
        > These devices being protable were being shown in all kinds of places;
        > Starbucks, the patio at home, the bedroom, the car, the city park, etc.
        >
        > The underlying discussion involved the question of how does your boss
        > know you are working? Their answer was the job got done didn't it.
        >
        > They then presented the bosses who said; it's ok by us as long as we get
        > the work done, we don't really care if we see the employee or not. They also
        > stated that there was no need of empty offices either which would save
        > companys costs there as well.
        >
        > Maybe this trust of the employer and thus the commute problem may well
        > be on it's way to being solved without any intervention.
        >
        > One might also credit this trust building concept to all the "work at
        > home" jobs that exist today and the positive result they got as an employer
        > by offering it. The job got done!!
        >
        > The only negative shown in this presentation by CBS was that of the
        > employee always being on the move, car, train, bus, etc.... So the employee
        > may well have the employers trust but is he or she solving energy
        > consumption problems in the process?
        >
        > At the very least, it shows promise of doing so. At least it eliminates
        > a "finite" daily commute and it's cost and energy issues.
        >
        > People who are willing to work don't need cops.
        > People who cannot be trusted to work without a cop don't need the job.
        >
        > There are simply too many honest folks out there or this would not have
        > gotten off the ground to begin with much less bloom as big as it has, as
        > fast as it has.....
        >
        > We may well be solving our problem with energy consumption and not even
        > be aware of doing it.
        >
        > Bob
        >
        >
        > Dave Cline <davecline@...> wrote:
        > We speak of the psychology of work.
        >
        > Of work, the lacking feature is trust. Managers do not trust those who
        > work
        > for them. Units of work are still not considered as discrete finishable
        > units, but are time based. "I cannot trust you to get your work done, so
        > I'm
        > going to have to have you here to prove that you're at least pretending to
        > work."
        >
        > I would venture to say that roughly half of all work done these days, in
        > this country, is time based. The other half, information workers, work
        > with
        > units of packagable work. Not hours. The internet has given us the
        > potential
        > of freedom from having to be there to get work done. But do we take
        > advantage of it? No.
        >
        > Until managers learn to trust. And workers earn that trust, the daily
        > commute, regardless of length, will be the norm. And I would also posit
        > that
        > this trust will never be achieved. So buy electric, cuz' you're gonna be
        > driving to your job for the rest of your life. :-)
        >
        > Dave Cline
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
        ... Course, it d be hard for me to stuff a 5-axis NC machine into my garage. Also would be tough to actually set up a production line in my den - and if I
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 3, 2006
          --- Dave Cline <davecline@...> wrote:
          > Two points:
          > the evidence I see with the swelling number of
          > commuters out there certainly
          > speaks to the opposite of this telecommute trend. It
          > will eventually take
          > over, but that eventually may take tens of years.
          > And think of the mistrust
          > of all the Indian and Chinese IT managers who will
          > demand that they see
          > their info-workers F2F. How do you know when you've
          > made middle class in
          > Bangalore or Peking? It's when you own a car. (and
          > can drive to work???)
          >
          > If this emmigration to the Starbucks and home
          > offices is successful, and
          > happens quickly, does this foretell the death of the
          > inner city? If every
          > info-worker in San Francisco suddenly stayed home to
          > work, the
          > city-by-the-bay would sure be one empty place.
          >
          'Course, it'd be hard for me to stuff a 5-axis NC
          machine into my garage. Also would be tough to
          actually set up a production line in my den - and if I
          did, then the people manning the production line would
          have to commute from somewhere.

          So, I guess what I'm saying is - Yes, there are many
          people with jobs that can be done at home, but there
          are also many, many people (like me) who really need
          to be where they work, members of teams that build
          actual, material stuff. I don't think the unmanned
          manufacturing center is going to show up any time in
          the next few years. And if it does, I will consider
          such a development to be a real shame.


          - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
          Santa Clarita, CA

          Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration

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        • Robert Mills
          I am not too worried about other nations. For one thing, they are usually ahead of us in transitions such as we are talking about. As far as the city by the
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 3, 2006
            I am not too worried about other nations. For one thing, they are usually ahead of us in transitions such as we are talking about.

            As far as the city by the bay being empty, we will never see that but we will see an increase in tourists and the like since we have room for them to get there. 90% of those get there via public transportation as well.

            Simply getting half of the workers out of offices and off the commute trail will forstall much of the problem we face today. Most of the service sector, hotel maids, waiteresses, etc. are local people already and mostly commute via public transportation.

            Telecommute type jobs can be beneficial to both sides, employee and employer as close as 5 miles away from the job. Today's business climate really does not need the office space they use today. Most of the employees could do their work just as you do. It's all a matter of trust and more employers will be trying to accomplish just that in the near future.

            Bob

            Dave Cline <davecline@...> wrote:
            I sure hope you're right.

            I, myself, telecommute. My "commute" is 10 steps to the den. I built trust
            by, yes indeed, getting the job done.

            Two points:
            the evidence I see with the swelling number of commuters out there certainly
            speaks to the opposite of this telecommute trend. It will eventually take
            over, but that eventually may take tens of years. And think of the mistrust
            of all the Indian and Chinese IT managers who will demand that they see
            their info-workers F2F. How do you know when you've made middle class in
            Bangalore or Peking? It's when you own a car. (and can drive to work???)

            If this emmigration to the Starbucks and home offices is successful, and
            happens quickly, does this foretell the death of the inner city? If every
            info-worker in San Francisco suddenly stayed home to work, the
            city-by-the-bay would sure be one empty place.

            -dc

            On 4/3/06, Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote:
            >
            > An interesting concept to be sure but;
            >
            > Less than 24 hours ago on 60 minutes, there was a program addressing a
            > different concept than trust; the concept was portable devices, phones,
            > Ipods, laptops, etc.
            > These devices being protable were being shown in all kinds of places;
            > Starbucks, the patio at home, the bedroom, the car, the city park, etc.
            >
            > The underlying discussion involved the question of how does your boss
            > know you are working? Their answer was the job got done didn't it.
            >
            > They then presented the bosses who said; it's ok by us as long as we get
            > the work done, we don't really care if we see the employee or not. They also
            > stated that there was no need of empty offices either which would save
            > companys costs there as well.
            >
            > Maybe this trust of the employer and thus the commute problem may well
            > be on it's way to being solved without any intervention.
            >
            > One might also credit this trust building concept to all the "work at
            > home" jobs that exist today and the positive result they got as an employer
            > by offering it. The job got done!!
            >
            > The only negative shown in this presentation by CBS was that of the
            > employee always being on the move, car, train, bus, etc.... So the employee
            > may well have the employers trust but is he or she solving energy
            > consumption problems in the process?
            >
            > At the very least, it shows promise of doing so. At least it eliminates
            > a "finite" daily commute and it's cost and energy issues.
            >
            > People who are willing to work don't need cops.
            > People who cannot be trusted to work without a cop don't need the job.
            >
            > There are simply too many honest folks out there or this would not have
            > gotten off the ground to begin with much less bloom as big as it has, as
            > fast as it has.....
            >
            > We may well be solving our problem with energy consumption and not even
            > be aware of doing it.
            >
            > Bob
            >
            >
            > Dave Cline <davecline@...> wrote:
            > We speak of the psychology of work.
            >
            > Of work, the lacking feature is trust. Managers do not trust those who
            > work
            > for them. Units of work are still not considered as discrete finishable
            > units, but are time based. "I cannot trust you to get your work done, so
            > I'm
            > going to have to have you here to prove that you're at least pretending to
            > work."
            >
            > I would venture to say that roughly half of all work done these days, in
            > this country, is time based. The other half, information workers, work
            > with
            > units of packagable work. Not hours. The internet has given us the
            > potential
            > of freedom from having to be there to get work done. But do we take
            > advantage of it? No.
            >
            > Until managers learn to trust. And workers earn that trust, the daily
            > commute, regardless of length, will be the norm. And I would also posit
            > that
            > this trust will never be achieved. So buy electric, cuz' you're gonna be
            > driving to your job for the rest of your life. :-)
            >
            > Dave Cline
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            SPONSORED LINKS
            Automotive car part Automotive fuel cell Automotive fuel tank Automotive car cover Alternative fuels

            ---------------------------------
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            Visit your group "future-fuels-and-vehicles" on the web.

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            future-fuels-and-vehicles-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            ---------------------------------





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • murdoch
            ... Guilty here also, sort of. I telecommute, but when I do drive to the big town , it is 60 miles away. For minor shopping or errands, it is not necessary
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 3, 2006
              On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 13:44:34 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

              >--- Eddie <eddiecolumbus@...> wrote:
              >> Obviously most on this list would agree with wanting
              >> to live closer to reduce one's impact on the
              >> environment, but one must look at the costs of
              >> living in some cities (to say nothing of the quality
              >> of life issues). Locally, taxes for the MOST modest
              >> home are $4000-5000 where I work, but they are
              >> usually 1/3 of that if you are willing to commute
              >> 15-20 miles. I do not live in a mega city, so I
              >> would expect the numbers climb quite rapidly in
              >> places where rent can be $2000 per month for a
              >> shoebox of an apartment.
              >>
              >What you say is true in the short-term, but you should
              >recognize that the big reason we can afford to commute
              >so far is amazingly cheap, heavily subsidized oil.
              >Each BTU we consume from petroleum-based sources is
              >one less BTU our progeny will be able to burn when
              >energy is far harder to come by. We are selling our
              >grandkids short by using all this oil for something as
              >silly as commuting 50+ miles each day.
              >
              >And I am one of the prime offenders!

              Guilty here also, sort of. I telecommute, but when I do drive "to the
              big town", it is 60 miles away. For minor shopping or errands, it is
              not necessary to go there, but for other matters, it is necessary.

              Looking at it another way, I may get my measured household energy use
              down to 10 kWh per day or so (this is not the absolute lowest I see,
              but is more of a middling day), but if I take just one trip to town in
              my 32 mpg-or-so vehicle, this is about 4 gallons of gas, or very
              roughly 152 kwh, or around 15 days' worth of household measured energy
              use.

              Now, some may say I am a hypocrite because I have not sprung for a
              hybrid. Last year I spent my last flexible dollars on a solar
              install, and so if I ever am able to risk a plug-in, it will be partly
              solar-powered. My next choice, should I make any money, and should I
              keep in mind my communal discussions about saving energy, would either
              be to buy a more innovative vehicle solution or to move closer to
              town. I don't want to move away from my energy-conserving house, but
              my home's location is an achilles heel for some of my energy-saving
              goals.

              Should I not keep my communal discussions in mind, then a Porsche
              convertible it will be, though I think that will cause some
              hand-wringing at the checkpoint, the first few times out. Good for
              developing some vitamin D in my body though.
            • murdoch
              When we try to consider the future and energy savings and a host of related concepts, I definitely think we re getting straight to the heart of some
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 4, 2006
                When we try to consider the future and energy savings and a host of
                related concepts, I definitely think we're getting straight to the
                heart of some considerations (telecommuting, daily gas expenditures
                per person) that a lot of us have had on our minds.

                An additional one is not just the energy expended in an individual
                getting his body physically to work, but also in shopping. So, if one
                can not only telecommute but also "teleshop", then this brings up a
                whole host of other considerations.

                It also interestingly includes questions of trust. For example, I saw
                one profile of the founders of ebay and it mentioned something about
                how they built the company in part on the idea that people generally
                could be trusted (obviously there are exceptions) to a high degree to
                carry out their transactions.

                I shop online a lot, and I think it definitely saves gas and (just as
                importantly) time. Even if I were to find a good metric for
                calculating the gas expenditures of my UPS delivery person, and they
                may well be considerable, they are still consolidated across many
                deliveries and I think in the end by my ordering over amazon.com or
                ebay, I am able to save energy.

                It has additionally been interesting for me to follow and participate
                in and contemplate the changes we see in music and film renting and
                buying. From the old days when I would browse record bins to now when
                we order a CD online and have it delivered, I think even that is a
                traditional phase. The next part is to be able to push a button and
                download it. Even though this includes an electric energy expenditure
                (and ongoing energy to save the data to a drive?) it would appear to
                be less energy than we see expended via the old paradigms and their
                massive burning of irretrieveable BTUs in our gas tanks. So, I think
                it's very exciting frankly to contemplate how much energy we can save
                via these new downloading methods. Yes, absolutely, I think we could
                come up with a list of pros and cons to this, such as questioning
                whether there is additional fragmenting in our society, the burden of
                the ending of some localized retail relationships and the bankrupting
                of some local businesses, etc. I'm not pretending otherwise.
                Nonetheless, on a basis purely of per capita energy expenditure
                analysis, there would appear to be a revolution taking place.

                So, as we work the kinks out with music copyright concerns, and then
                move on to the biggie... movies-and-similar.... we are perhaps on the
                brink of saving a whole-lot-of-energy. That's my theory anyway.


                On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:29:02 -0800, you wrote:

                >I sure hope you're right.
                >
                >I, myself, telecommute. My "commute" is 10 steps to the den. I built trust
                >by, yes indeed, getting the job done.
                >
                >Two points:
                >the evidence I see with the swelling number of commuters out there certainly
                >speaks to the opposite of this telecommute trend. It will eventually take
                >over, but that eventually may take tens of years. And think of the mistrust
                >of all the Indian and Chinese IT managers who will demand that they see
                >their info-workers F2F. How do you know when you've made middle class in
                >Bangalore or Peking? It's when you own a car. (and can drive to work???)
                >
                >If this emmigration to the Starbucks and home offices is successful, and
                >happens quickly, does this foretell the death of the inner city? If every
                >info-worker in San Francisco suddenly stayed home to work, the
                >city-by-the-bay would sure be one empty place.
                >
                >-dc
                >
                >On 4/3/06, Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> An interesting concept to be sure but;
                >>
                >> Less than 24 hours ago on 60 minutes, there was a program addressing a
                >> different concept than trust; the concept was portable devices, phones,
                >> Ipods, laptops, etc.
                >> These devices being protable were being shown in all kinds of places;
                >> Starbucks, the patio at home, the bedroom, the car, the city park, etc.
                >>
                >> The underlying discussion involved the question of how does your boss
                >> know you are working? Their answer was the job got done didn't it.
                >>
                >> They then presented the bosses who said; it's ok by us as long as we get
                >> the work done, we don't really care if we see the employee or not. They also
                >> stated that there was no need of empty offices either which would save
                >> companys costs there as well.
                >>
                >> Maybe this trust of the employer and thus the commute problem may well
                >> be on it's way to being solved without any intervention.
                >>
                >> One might also credit this trust building concept to all the "work at
                >> home" jobs that exist today and the positive result they got as an employer
                >> by offering it. The job got done!!
                >>
                >> The only negative shown in this presentation by CBS was that of the
                >> employee always being on the move, car, train, bus, etc.... So the employee
                >> may well have the employers trust but is he or she solving energy
                >> consumption problems in the process?
                >>
                >> At the very least, it shows promise of doing so. At least it eliminates
                >> a "finite" daily commute and it's cost and energy issues.
                >>
                >> People who are willing to work don't need cops.
                >> People who cannot be trusted to work without a cop don't need the job.
                >>
                >> There are simply too many honest folks out there or this would not have
                >> gotten off the ground to begin with much less bloom as big as it has, as
                >> fast as it has.....
                >>
                >> We may well be solving our problem with energy consumption and not even
                >> be aware of doing it.
                >>
                >> Bob
                >>
                >>
                >> Dave Cline <davecline@...> wrote:
                >> We speak of the psychology of work.
                >>
                >> Of work, the lacking feature is trust. Managers do not trust those who
                >> work
                >> for them. Units of work are still not considered as discrete finishable
                >> units, but are time based. "I cannot trust you to get your work done, so
                >> I'm
                >> going to have to have you here to prove that you're at least pretending to
                >> work."
                >>
                >> I would venture to say that roughly half of all work done these days, in
                >> this country, is time based. The other half, information workers, work
                >> with
                >> units of packagable work. Not hours. The internet has given us the
                >> potential
                >> of freedom from having to be there to get work done. But do we take
                >> advantage of it? No.
                >>
                >> Until managers learn to trust. And workers earn that trust, the daily
                >> commute, regardless of length, will be the norm. And I would also posit
                >> that
                >> this trust will never be achieved. So buy electric, cuz' you're gonna be
                >> driving to your job for the rest of your life. :-)
                >>
                >> Dave Cline
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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