Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Electric Forklift Design Expertise, ... Any Applicability To PHEV Prototyping?

Expand Messages
  • murdoch
    To: EVWorld.com yahoo group Gridable Hybrids yahoo group Electric Vehicles For Sale yahoo group I have been mulling over our (the CalCars Prius+ Working Group)
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 1, 2005
      To:

      EVWorld.com yahoo group
      Gridable Hybrids yahoo group
      Electric Vehicles For Sale yahoo group

      I have been mulling over our (the CalCars Prius+ Working Group) decision to try
      to work with Electro Energy to incorporate a good (by all accounts) NiMH battery
      into our next Prius+.

      The CIA's not-so-secret moderate investment in Electro Energy is nice and
      signals some interest from "the establishment" in the success of Electro
      Energy's large-format NiMH efforts, and some decades-overdue recognition of the
      national security implications of wider deployment of this
      oil-use-reducing-technology, but for those of us accustomed to decades of false
      starts on Advanced Battery promise, it does not at all put to rest reasonable
      fears that, yet again, "something" will "somehow" get in the way of Electro
      Energy being able to go to production and make appropriate type NIMH batteries
      available for mass production of PHEVs and BEVs.

      What other options are there if something "somehow" gets in the way?

      One of the offbeat questions I keep coming back to, over the years, is that
      there are many thousands of non-advanced-battery EVs in operation every day,
      from golf carts to fork lifts, and that we tend to forget about this a little
      bit.

      So, I wonder if it would be productive to cultivate some working relationship
      particularly with a good established EV forklift maker, just to see.... just to
      find out if perhaps they, using their older Lead Battery tech, could come up
      with a better PHEV... just in case somewhow the rug gets pulled out from under
      us and "somehow" it "just happens" that we are unable to get our hands on any
      good reasonably priced NiMH batteries appropriate in their specifications for
      our PHEV research.

      In the case of the CalCars effort, a basic first goal of the project is already
      accomplished. With our lead acid PHEV prototype proving out many of our ideas
      (including where lead acid just isn't appropriate) and with EDrive Systems'
      Lithium-Ion Prius+ still slated for actual buy-ability in 2006 (early 2006? I
      hope?) I think there is a thought that it is not necessary for us to have the
      same "pace" in building our next-gen PHEV. A primary focus right now is finding
      an OEM with the balls to meet consumer demand and build a PHEV (why is this so
      difficult?).

      In the meantime, many (not just me) have raised questions over the last few
      months, and years, and decades, as to whether we will ever really honestly have
      access to PHEV and BEV-suitable-spec NiMH batteries, and so I wonder how this
      Electro-Energy NiMH + CalCars research will play out.

      http://www.edrivesystems.com/Edrive-FAQ.html

      As an aside, I noticed this quote (below) on the Edrive page. It was rather
      surprising. In my view, this means that the Edrive car is in one sense not a
      full PHEV. (It also makes me wonder if it's the reason they weren't able to
      score 100+ mpg as measured in the Tour Del Sol

      However, some of their other comments on another part of the page make me think
      there is some EV-only-mode at lower speeds, so I am confused if they have an
      EV-only mode, and thus as to whether their vehicle would allow eschewing of gas
      stations, if one only used it at lower speeds for around-the-town-trips.

      ------------------------
      Begin Quote:
      ------------------------

      Q37: Is the EDrive system gas-optional? (ie: a GO-hybrid)
      A: No. While the historical definition of a plug in hybrid might be closer to
      that of an electric vehicle with a gasoline range extender, the EDrive system
      takes advantage of the sophisticated full hybrid systems in vehicles like the
      Toyota Prius and Ford Escape hybrid. As such, the system is not presently
      designed to be fully capable at any speed in EV mode, but rather to share the
      burden between gasoline and electricity depending on vehicle operating
      requirements and operator demands. In the future, we anticipate the electrical
      contribution growing and the gasoline contribution shrinking, but at the moment
      the EDrive system for the Prius is not really gasoline optional.

      ------------------------
      End Quote
      ------------------------
    • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
      I just spent several days with an Electro Energy board member. I can assure you that they have every intention of scaling up production to commercial levels
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 1, 2005
        I just spent several days with an Electro Energy board member. I can
        assure you that they have every intention of scaling up production to
        commercial levels ASAP. Keep in mind that many of the same people are
        involved as were involved with EverCell, the Nickel Zinc company that
        tried to go big time a few years ago. EverCell built an impressive
        factory in CT and formed a partnership with another big factory in
        China. Their problem was the product and product marketing. They
        tried to sell a ridiculously expensive battery pack for trolling
        motors for small fishing boats. It cost too much and nobody needed
        it, so it flopped.

        Electro Engergy's bi-polar NiMH battery is going to get
        commericialized as a BEV/PHEV battery. This is a much better target
        market. Auto companies have much deeper pockets than trolling motor
        companies, so they can afford the upfront NRE/R&D costs. They can
        also wait a bit longer for return on their investments. And, most
        importantly, the potential market for PHEVs is HUGE.

        As to working with low tech battery companies... I do that every day
        of my working life. It is an important and often overlooked aspect of
        EV development. At AeroVironment, our primary EV business right now
        is charging forklifts and other industrial vehicles. These are
        low-voltage, low-tech vehicles using 100 year old battery technology,
        but we are continuously improving our fast charging technology to make
        these vehicles more and more competitive with ICE-powered vehicles.
        The progress we are making in battery charging is directly applicable
        to fast-charging "more advanced" batteries as well, and our R&D
        division takes our products and modifies them to use with on-road EVs.

        Another important element regarding working with electric forklifts is
        cost reduction. I've said it before; I'll say it again. We have
        decreased the manufacturing cost of our EV chargers by roughly an
        order of magnitude since I started working for AeroVironment in 1998.
        We've gotten our chargers down to a price where your average
        customer could afford to have one installed in their garage without
        feeling much of a financial pinch (assuming we had demand for on-road
        chargers). And we continue to drive our costs down. So, when BEVs or
        PHEVs are ready for mass-production, we will have affordable fast
        chargers ready and waiting.

        Yours,

        Forbes Bagatelle-Black
        Santa Clarita, CA
      • Lee Dekker
        Hard to think of anything that moves more quickly, more easily or more efficiently than electrons. Forbes Bagatelle-Black wrote:
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 1, 2005
          Hard to think of anything that moves more quickly, more easily or more efficiently than electrons.

          Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...> wrote: I just spent several days with an Electro Energy board member. I can
          assure you that they have every intention of scaling up production to
          commercial levels ASAP. Keep in mind that many of the same people are
          involved as were involved with EverCell, the Nickel Zinc company that
          tried to go big time a few years ago. EverCell built an impressive
          factory in CT and formed a partnership with another big factory in
          China. Their problem was the product and product marketing. They
          tried to sell a ridiculously expensive battery pack for trolling
          motors for small fishing boats. It cost too much and nobody needed
          it, so it flopped.

          Electro Engergy's bi-polar NiMH battery is going to get
          commericialized as a BEV/PHEV battery. This is a much better target
          market. Auto companies have much deeper pockets than trolling motor
          companies, so they can afford the upfront NRE/R&D costs. They can
          also wait a bit longer for return on their investments. And, most
          importantly, the potential market for PHEVs is HUGE.

          As to working with low tech battery companies... I do that every day
          of my working life. It is an important and often overlooked aspect of
          EV development. At AeroVironment, our primary EV business right now
          is charging forklifts and other industrial vehicles. These are
          low-voltage, low-tech vehicles using 100 year old battery technology,
          but we are continuously improving our fast charging technology to make
          these vehicles more and more competitive with ICE-powered vehicles.
          The progress we are making in battery charging is directly applicable
          to fast-charging "more advanced" batteries as well, and our R&D
          division takes our products and modifies them to use with on-road EVs.

          Another important element regarding working with electric forklifts is
          cost reduction. I've said it before; I'll say it again. We have
          decreased the manufacturing cost of our EV chargers by roughly an
          order of magnitude since I started working for AeroVironment in 1998.
          We've gotten our chargers down to a price where your average
          customer could afford to have one installed in their garage without
          feeling much of a financial pinch (assuming we had demand for on-road
          chargers). And we continue to drive our costs down. So, when BEVs or
          PHEVs are ready for mass-production, we will have affordable fast
          chargers ready and waiting.

          Yours,

          Forbes Bagatelle-Black
          Santa Clarita, CA






          ---------------------------------
          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


          Visit your group "evworld" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------






          ---------------------------------
          Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • murdoch_1998
          ... Odd, but this paragraph didn t come through to my email reader. I wonder what the computer problem is on my computer. Now that I m accessing via the web
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 1, 2005
            --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Forbes Bagatelle-Black"
            <diarmaede@y...> wrote:
            >
            > I just spent several days with an Electro Energy board member. I can
            > assure you that they have every intention of scaling up production to
            > commercial levels ASAP.

            Odd, but this paragraph didn't come through to my email reader. I
            wonder what the computer problem is on my computer. Now that I'm
            accessing via the web I can see it.

            Anyway, now that I read your response on the web, I can only say that
            I'm glad to have your knowledge of both charging and also both on
            Electro Energy. That said, I do not take victory for-granted that
            they will make it. I'm sure they do have every intention of scaling
            up, but that does not mean they will succeed, or that ECD won't get in
            the way with a lawsuit or that somehow demand won't materialize as
            they thought it would, or whatever.


            >Keep in mind that many of the same people are
            > involved as were involved with EverCell, the Nickel Zinc company that
            > tried to go big time a few years ago. EverCell built an impressive
            > factory in CT and formed a partnership with another big factory in
            > China. Their problem was the product and product marketing. They
            > tried to sell a ridiculously expensive battery pack for trolling
            > motors for small fishing boats. It cost too much and nobody needed
            > it, so it flopped.
            >
            > Electro Engergy's bi-polar NiMH battery is going to get
            > commericialized as a BEV/PHEV battery. This is a much better target
            > market. Auto companies have much deeper pockets than trolling motor
            > companies, so they can afford the upfront NRE/R&D costs. They can
            > also wait a bit longer for return on their investments. And, most
            > importantly, the potential market for PHEVs is HUGE.

            It may be that the market is huge, but that does not necessarily mean
            the auto companies will recognize it. They have been dragged kicking
            and screaming into any implementation of allowing consumers to source
            a non-petroleum-industry-fuel and to this day there are no vehicles on
            the market which allow such except maybe for biofuel vehicles (and
            those non-petroleum-industry fuels are still in limited supply to
            consumers).

            So, I hope you're right, but I will take a wait-and-see attitude.
          • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
            ... A very wise approach. Electro Energy is far from a slam dunk, especially in terms of being the battery company that makes PHEVs doable. There are too
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 1, 2005
              --- murdoch_1998 <murdoch@...> wrote:

              > So, I hope you're right, but I will take a
              > wait-and-see attitude.
              >
              A very wise approach. Electro Energy is far from a
              slam dunk, especially in terms of being the battery
              company that makes PHEVs doable. There are too many
              unknowns. I was just trying to confirm that Electro
              Energy's board is intent on doing what they can. This
              is no shell company put forward by the CIA or the Big
              Three. It is a real company, staffed by intelligent,
              hardworking people who would like to see EVs succeed.
              Now that they are public, they also have some
              financial resources to back up their good intentions.

              - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
              Santa Clarita, CA

              Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration



              __________________________________________
              Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
              Just $16.99/mo. or less.
              dsl.yahoo.com
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.