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Parallel vs. Series, was: Dan Neil on Honda's Civic Hybrid

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  • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
    None of the big companies make a series hybrid. I was working on a series hybrid in the 90s at a startup company called Rosen Motors. We were using a
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
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      None of the big companies make a series hybrid. I was
      working on a series hybrid in the 90s at a startup
      company called Rosen Motors. We were using a
      microturbine as our power source instead of an
      internal combustion engine (ICE). Since the turbine
      shaft was spinning at ~60,0000 RPM, it was not
      practical to connect it directly to the driveshaft.

      In a hybrid with an ICE, parallel design just makes
      more sense. The ICE can charge the battery just as
      efficiently as in a series architecture, but the ICE
      can also power the drive wheels directly, which
      eliminates the power loss due to inefficiencies in the
      ICE-to-electric motor path.

      To my way of thinking, the only time a series hybrid
      architecture makes sense in an EV with an ICE is in a
      vehicle where the ICE is removable. When you are
      making short trips around town, leave the ICE at home
      and operate as a BEV. When you've got to cruise
      beyond battery range, hook up the ICE on a trailer or
      on a rack which slides into the square hitch mount on
      the back of your vehicle. Plug in the wires between
      the ICE generator and the battery pack/charger and
      you're good to go!

      Yours,

      Forbes B-Black
      Santa Clarita, CA



      --- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@...> wrote:

      > Thanks. Are there any hybrids out there that could
      > be called serial?
      >
      > Paul
      >
      >
      > > Hi Paul,
      > >
      > > Parallel hybrids can and do run on electricity
      > alone
      > > when they are set up to do so. All of the
      > > commercially available hybrids from the big auto
      > > companies are parallel hybrids (well... the Lexus
      > > LX400h and Toyota Highlander hybrid stretch the
      > > definition a bit since, according to my limited
      > > understanding, the ICE drives the front wheels and
      > the
      > > electric motor drives the rear wheels), whether or
      > not
      > > they can run on the electric motor alone. In a
      > > parallel hybrid, both the ICE and the electric
      > motor
      > > are linked directly to the drive shaft. With the
      > > right control setup, either power source can make
      > the
      > > wheels spin. They can work together or
      > independently.
      > >
      > > Yours,
      > >
      > > Forbes B-Black
      > > Santa Clarita, CA
      > >
      > > --- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >> D'oh! I meant to ask if it was a serial hybrid.
      > >> Since it can run on the
      > >> electric motor alone, I thought that it might be.
      > >>
      > >> Paul
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> > It's always been a parallel hybrid. What it
      > can't
      > >> do is series hybrid.
      > >> > Never could, can't now.
      > >> >
      > >> > Nate
      > >> >
      > >> > ----- Original Message -----
      > >> > From: "Paul Scott" <pscottvfx@...>
      > >> > To: "EV1 Club" <ev1-club@...>;
      > >> "Evworld@..."
      > >> > <evworld@yahoogroups.com>; "RAV4-EV list"
      > >> <rav4-ev@...>
      > >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 10:27 AM
      > >> > Subject: [RAV4-EV] Dan Neil on Honda's Civic
      > >> Hybrid
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> > Great article by Dan Neil of the LA Times on
      > the
      > >> Honda Civic Hybrid. He
      > >> > takes to task the naysayers in the blogosphere
      > on
      > >> hybrids and has some
      > >> > interesting things to say about the car.
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >
      >
      http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil12oct12,0,917822.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1
      > >> >
      > >> > "The reason hybrid cars are flying off dealers'
      > >> lots is not because they
      > >> > make such a galvanizing financial brief. It's
      > >> because people of goodwill,
      > >> > conservative and liberal, are growing weary of
      > the
      > >> moral calculus of
      > >> > gasoline. What people are learning is that
      > private
      > >> choices have public
      > >> > consequences. Sure, I'll make my money back,
      > but
      > >> the more important thing
      > >> > is the 643 gallons of liquid crack I will save.
      > >> Now that's conservative."
      > >> >
      > >> > and this:
      > >> >
      > >> > "Under the stubby hood - and also spread out
      > under
      > >> the rear seats - is the
      > >> > car's powertrain. The engine is a 1.3-liter
      > >> four-cylinder with
      > >> > variable-valve timing; the electric motor is
      > one
      > >> of Honda's Integrated
      > >> > Motor Assist units, a 20-hp magnet sandwiched
      > >> between the engine and the
      > >> > continuously variable transmission. New for
      > this
      > >> edition is full-cylinder
      > >> > deactivation: Under light-load cruising, the
      > gas
      > >> engine can shut down
      > >> > entirely so that the car is being propelled
      > only
      > >> by the electric motor."
      > >> >
      > >> > So, does this make the Civic a parallel hybrid?
      > >> >
      > >> > Paul
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >
      >
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >>
      > _______________________________________________
      > >> >> RAV4-EV mailing list
      > >> >> RAV4-EV@...
      > >> >>
      > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rav4-ev
      > >> >>
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________
      > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
      > > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
      > > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > > evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >





      __________________________________
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    • Lee Dekker
      There is one other area were a series hybrid may be practical. Any vehicle that never or very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds for any length of time
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
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        There is one other area were a series hybrid may be practical. Any vehicle that never or
        very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds for any length of time could be a candidate.
        If a mail truck or a delivery truck or a garbage truck can fit into these category, a
        series set up could work. The problem with this is that even though these types of
        vehicles may do 90% of their driving in short stop and go spurts, if they have one or two
        long freeway halls per day the advantages may be lost.

        But a series hybrid should be vastly simpler and cheaper to set up and maintain so that
        has to be factored into the overall picture. Also in the case of something like a garbage
        truck, there is the need to run many auxiliary functions, separate from the main drive
        motor.

        Using a turbine in a series hybrid is a fascinating concept. While it may not pan out in
        an automobile, it may be the perfect choice for larger vehicles. The efficiency of a
        turbine, its low maintenance costs and the ability to gang units as needed may at some
        point beat the efficiency of parallel hybrid piston diesels, even on long haul units. And
        although I've never heard of it being done, I see no reason a turbine could not burn
        biodiesel.

        --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:

        > None of the big companies make a series hybrid. I was
        > working on a series hybrid in the 90s at a startup
        > company called Rosen Motors. We were using a
        > microturbine as our power source instead of an
        > internal combustion engine (ICE). Since the turbine
        > shaft was spinning at ~60,0000 RPM, it was not
        > practical to connect it directly to the driveshaft.
        >
        > In a hybrid with an ICE, parallel design just makes
        > more sense. The ICE can charge the battery just as
        > efficiently as in a series architecture, but the ICE
        > can also power the drive wheels directly, which
        > eliminates the power loss due to inefficiencies in the
        > ICE-to-electric motor path.
        >
        > To my way of thinking, the only time a series hybrid
        > architecture makes sense in an EV with an ICE is in a
        > vehicle where the ICE is removable. When you are
        > making short trips around town, leave the ICE at home
        > and operate as a BEV. When you've got to cruise
        > beyond battery range, hook up the ICE on a trailer or
        > on a rack which slides into the square hitch mount on
        > the back of your vehicle. Plug in the wires between
        > the ICE generator and the battery pack/charger and
        > you're good to go!
        >
        > Yours,
        >
        > Forbes B-Black
        > Santa Clarita, CA
        >
        >
        >
        > --- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Thanks. Are there any hybrids out there that could
        > > be called serial?
        > >
        > > Paul
        > >
        > >
        > > > Hi Paul,
        > > >
        > > > Parallel hybrids can and do run on electricity
        > > alone
        > > > when they are set up to do so. All of the
        > > > commercially available hybrids from the big auto
        > > > companies are parallel hybrids (well... the Lexus
        > > > LX400h and Toyota Highlander hybrid stretch the
        > > > definition a bit since, according to my limited
        > > > understanding, the ICE drives the front wheels and
        > > the
        > > > electric motor drives the rear wheels), whether or
        > > not
        > > > they can run on the electric motor alone. In a
        > > > parallel hybrid, both the ICE and the electric
        > > motor
        > > > are linked directly to the drive shaft. With the
        > > > right control setup, either power source can make
        > > the
        > > > wheels spin. They can work together or
        > > independently.
        > > >
        > > > Yours,
        > > >
        > > > Forbes B-Black
        > > > Santa Clarita, CA
        > > >
        > > > --- Paul Scott <pscottvfx@...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >> D'oh! I meant to ask if it was a serial hybrid.
        > > >> Since it can run on the
        > > >> electric motor alone, I thought that it might be.
        > > >>
        > > >> Paul
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >> > It's always been a parallel hybrid. What it
        > > can't
        > > >> do is series hybrid.
        > > >> > Never could, can't now.
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Nate
        > > >> >
        > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
        > > >> > From: "Paul Scott" <pscottvfx@...>
        > > >> > To: "EV1 Club" <ev1-club@...>;
        > > >> "Evworld@..."
        > > >> > <evworld@yahoogroups.com>; "RAV4-EV list"
        > > >> <rav4-ev@...>
        > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 10:27 AM
        > > >> > Subject: [RAV4-EV] Dan Neil on Honda's Civic
        > > >> Hybrid
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Great article by Dan Neil of the LA Times on
        > > the
        > > >> Honda Civic Hybrid. He
        > > >> > takes to task the naysayers in the blogosphere
        > > on
        > > >> hybrids and has some
        > > >> > interesting things to say about the car.
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >>
        > > >
        > >
        >
        http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil12oct12,0,917822.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1
        > > >> >
        > > >> > "The reason hybrid cars are flying off dealers'
        > > >> lots is not because they
        > > >> > make such a galvanizing financial brief. It's
        > > >> because people of goodwill,
        > > >> > conservative and liberal, are growing weary of
        > > the
        > > >> moral calculus of
        > > >> > gasoline. What people are learning is that
        > > private
        > > >> choices have public
        > > >> > consequences. Sure, I'll make my money back,
        > > but
        > > >> the more important thing
        > > >> > is the 643 gallons of liquid crack I will save.
        > > >> Now that's conservative."
        > > >> >
        > > >> > and this:
        > > >> >
        > > >> > "Under the stubby hood - and also spread out
        > > under
        > > >> the rear seats - is the
        > > >> > car's powertrain. The engine is a 1.3-liter
        > > >> four-cylinder with
        > > >> > variable-valve timing; the electric motor is
        > > one
        > > >> of Honda's Integrated
        > > >> > Motor Assist units, a 20-hp magnet sandwiched
        > > >> between the engine and the
        > > >> > continuously variable transmission. New for
        > > this
        > > >> edition is full-cylinder
        > > >> > deactivation: Under light-load cruising, the
        > > gas
        > > >> engine can shut down
        > > >> > entirely so that the car is being propelled
        > > only
        > > >> by the electric motor."
        > > >> >
        > > >> > So, does this make the Civic a parallel hybrid?
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Paul
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >>
        > > >
        > >
        > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > >> >
        > > >> >
        > > >> >>
        > > _______________________________________________
        > > >> >> RAV4-EV mailing list
        > > >> >> RAV4-EV@...
        > > >> >>
        > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rav4-ev
        > > >> >>
        > > >> >
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > __________________________________
        > > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
        > > > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
        > > > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________
        >
        === message truncated ===




        __________________________________
        Yahoo! Music Unlimited
        Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
        http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
      • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
        Hi Lee, Your post highlights many misconceptions about parallel hybrids. Yes, a series configuration in simpler, but not drastically. The only added
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
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          Hi Lee,

          Your post highlights many misconceptions about
          parallel hybrids.

          Yes, a series configuration in simpler, but not
          drastically. The only added complexity to a parallel
          architecture is hooking the output of the ICE directly
          to the driveshaft. Since auto companies have been
          hooking ICEs to driveshafts for more than 100 years
          now, they have figured out how to do it simply and
          cheaply.

          Otherwise, everything you associate with a series
          hybrid can be achieved with a parallel hybrid. Like a
          series hybrid, a parallel hybrid system can be used to
          charge a battery pack used for auxilliary equipment.
          Like a series system, a parallel system can be used in
          battery-only mode for the vast majority of the time,
          especially at low speeds and in stop-and-go city
          driving.

          Respectfully,

          Forbes B-Black
          Santa Clarita, CA

          --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:

          > There is one other area were a series hybrid may be
          > practical. Any vehicle that never or
          > very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds for any
          > length of time could be a candidate.
          > If a mail truck or a delivery truck or a garbage
          > truck can fit into these category, a
          > series set up could work. The problem with this is
          > that even though these types of
          > vehicles may do 90% of their driving in short stop
          > and go spurts, if they have one or two
          > long freeway halls per day the advantages may be
          > lost.
          >
          > But a series hybrid should be vastly simpler and
          > cheaper to set up and maintain so that
          > has to be factored into the overall picture. Also in
          > the case of something like a garbage
          > truck, there is the need to run many auxiliary
          > functions, separate from the main drive
          > motor.
          >
          > Using a turbine in a series hybrid is a fascinating
          > concept. While it may not pan out in
          > an automobile, it may be the perfect choice for
          > larger vehicles. The efficiency of a
          > turbine, its low maintenance costs and the ability
          > to gang units as needed may at some
          > point beat the efficiency of parallel hybrid piston
          > diesels, even on long haul units. And
          > although I've never heard of it being done, I see no
          > reason a turbine could not burn
          > biodiesel.
          >

          - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
          Santa Clarita, CA

          Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration



          __________________________________
          Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
          http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
        • Lee Dekker
          Thanks, What about using a turbine? ... __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
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            Thanks,

            What about using a turbine?

            --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:

            > Hi Lee,
            >
            > Your post highlights many misconceptions about
            > parallel hybrids.
            >
            > Yes, a series configuration in simpler, but not
            > drastically. The only added complexity to a parallel
            > architecture is hooking the output of the ICE directly
            > to the driveshaft. Since auto companies have been
            > hooking ICEs to driveshafts for more than 100 years
            > now, they have figured out how to do it simply and
            > cheaply.
            >
            > Otherwise, everything you associate with a series
            > hybrid can be achieved with a parallel hybrid. Like a
            > series hybrid, a parallel hybrid system can be used to
            > charge a battery pack used for auxilliary equipment.
            > Like a series system, a parallel system can be used in
            > battery-only mode for the vast majority of the time,
            > especially at low speeds and in stop-and-go city
            > driving.
            >
            > Respectfully,
            >
            > Forbes B-Black
            > Santa Clarita, CA
            >
            > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
            >
            > > There is one other area were a series hybrid may be
            > > practical. Any vehicle that never or
            > > very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds for any
            > > length of time could be a candidate.
            > > If a mail truck or a delivery truck or a garbage
            > > truck can fit into these category, a
            > > series set up could work. The problem with this is
            > > that even though these types of
            > > vehicles may do 90% of their driving in short stop
            > > and go spurts, if they have one or two
            > > long freeway halls per day the advantages may be
            > > lost.
            > >
            > > But a series hybrid should be vastly simpler and
            > > cheaper to set up and maintain so that
            > > has to be factored into the overall picture. Also in
            > > the case of something like a garbage
            > > truck, there is the need to run many auxiliary
            > > functions, separate from the main drive
            > > motor.
            > >
            > > Using a turbine in a series hybrid is a fascinating
            > > concept. While it may not pan out in
            > > an automobile, it may be the perfect choice for
            > > larger vehicles. The efficiency of a
            > > turbine, its low maintenance costs and the ability
            > > to gang units as needed may at some
            > > point beat the efficiency of parallel hybrid piston
            > > diesels, even on long haul units. And
            > > although I've never heard of it being done, I see no
            > > reason a turbine could not burn
            > > biodiesel.
            > >
            >
            > - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
            > Santa Clarita, CA
            >
            > Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at
            > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
            > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
            >




            __________________________________
            Yahoo! Music Unlimited
            Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
            http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
          • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
            Turbines are very groovy. The coolest setup around would be to have a turbine sized to provide for all your household needs sitting on a trailer. When it was
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
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              Turbines are very groovy. The coolest setup around
              would be to have a turbine sized to provide for all
              your household needs sitting on a trailer. When it
              was too cloudy for your PV cells or to calm for your
              wind generator, you could kick on the turbine for your
              electricity. Then, when you needed to drive your BEV
              beyond battery range, you could hook up the trailer to
              your BEV.

              Another neat thing about the Capstone mircoturbine is
              that you can run it on just about anything flammable -
              gasoline, methane, natural gas, etc. Just set it up
              with the right injectors for the fuel being used and
              fire it up.

              The main problems with turbines revolve around
              infrastructure questions. Even after more than a
              decade, the Capstone units still suffer from
              reliability issues. Microturbines need a lot more R&D
              before they are as reliable as ICEs. Then, we would
              have to convince the entire industry to switch from
              ICE-based power units to turbine-based power units -
              not an easy task.

              Yours,

              Forbes B-Black
              Santa Clarita, CA

              --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:

              > Thanks,
              >
              > What about using a turbine?
              >
              > --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > Hi Lee,
              > >
              > > Your post highlights many misconceptions about
              > > parallel hybrids.
              > >
              > > Yes, a series configuration in simpler, but not
              > > drastically. The only added complexity to a
              > parallel
              > > architecture is hooking the output of the ICE
              > directly
              > > to the driveshaft. Since auto companies have been
              > > hooking ICEs to driveshafts for more than 100
              > years
              > > now, they have figured out how to do it simply and
              > > cheaply.
              > >
              > > Otherwise, everything you associate with a series
              > > hybrid can be achieved with a parallel hybrid.
              > Like a
              > > series hybrid, a parallel hybrid system can be
              > used to
              > > charge a battery pack used for auxilliary
              > equipment.
              > > Like a series system, a parallel system can be
              > used in
              > > battery-only mode for the vast majority of the
              > time,
              > > especially at low speeds and in stop-and-go city
              > > driving.
              > >
              > > Respectfully,
              > >
              > > Forbes B-Black
              > > Santa Clarita, CA
              > >
              > > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > There is one other area were a series hybrid may
              > be
              > > > practical. Any vehicle that never or
              > > > very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds for
              > any
              > > > length of time could be a candidate.
              > > > If a mail truck or a delivery truck or a garbage
              > > > truck can fit into these category, a
              > > > series set up could work. The problem with this
              > is
              > > > that even though these types of
              > > > vehicles may do 90% of their driving in short
              > stop
              > > > and go spurts, if they have one or two
              > > > long freeway halls per day the advantages may be
              > > > lost.
              > > >
              > > > But a series hybrid should be vastly simpler and
              > > > cheaper to set up and maintain so that
              > > > has to be factored into the overall picture.
              > Also in
              > > > the case of something like a garbage
              > > > truck, there is the need to run many auxiliary
              > > > functions, separate from the main drive
              > > > motor.
              > > >
              > > > Using a turbine in a series hybrid is a
              > fascinating
              > > > concept. While it may not pan out in
              > > > an automobile, it may be the perfect choice for
              > > > larger vehicles. The efficiency of a
              > > > turbine, its low maintenance costs and the
              > ability
              > > > to gang units as needed may at some
              > > > point beat the efficiency of parallel hybrid
              > piston
              > > > diesels, even on long haul units. And
              > > > although I've never heard of it being done, I
              > see no
              > > > reason a turbine could not burn
              > > > biodiesel.
              > > >
              > >
              > > - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
              > > Santa Clarita, CA
              > >
              > > Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at
              > >
              >
              http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > __________________________________
              > > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home
              > page!
              > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
              > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
              > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
              >





              __________________________________
              Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
              ... Meant to say gasoline, PROPANE, natural gas, etc. Yes, I do realize that methane and natural gas are basically the same thing. ;) Sorry. - FBB -
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Another neat thing about the Capstone mircoturbine
                > is
                > that you can run it on just about anything flammable
                > -
                > gasoline, methane, natural gas, etc.

                Meant to say "gasoline, PROPANE, natural gas, etc."
                Yes, I do realize that methane and natural gas are
                basically the same thing. ;) Sorry. - FBB

                - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                Santa Clarita, CA

                Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration




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                Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
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              • Lee Dekker
                Thanks again very much. I also heard that turbines take a great deal of time to get going. Is that true? Apparently once running, they can be throttled back
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks again very much.

                  I also heard that turbines take a great deal of time to get going. Is that true?
                  Apparently once running, they can be throttled back and idled very efficiently. But if
                  the stop start cycle of an ICE diesel is much better than a turbine, that too will make
                  their adoption or difficult.

                  --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:

                  > Turbines are very groovy. The coolest setup around
                  > would be to have a turbine sized to provide for all
                  > your household needs sitting on a trailer. When it
                  > was too cloudy for your PV cells or to calm for your
                  > wind generator, you could kick on the turbine for your
                  > electricity. Then, when you needed to drive your BEV
                  > beyond battery range, you could hook up the trailer to
                  > your BEV.
                  >
                  > Another neat thing about the Capstone mircoturbine is
                  > that you can run it on just about anything flammable -
                  > gasoline, methane, natural gas, etc. Just set it up
                  > with the right injectors for the fuel being used and
                  > fire it up.
                  >
                  > The main problems with turbines revolve around
                  > infrastructure questions. Even after more than a
                  > decade, the Capstone units still suffer from
                  > reliability issues. Microturbines need a lot more R&D
                  > before they are as reliable as ICEs. Then, we would
                  > have to convince the entire industry to switch from
                  > ICE-based power units to turbine-based power units -
                  > not an easy task.
                  >
                  > Yours,
                  >
                  > Forbes B-Black
                  > Santa Clarita, CA
                  >
                  > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > >
                  > > What about using a turbine?
                  > >
                  > > --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Hi Lee,
                  > > >
                  > > > Your post highlights many misconceptions about
                  > > > parallel hybrids.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes, a series configuration in simpler, but not
                  > > > drastically. The only added complexity to a
                  > > parallel
                  > > > architecture is hooking the output of the ICE
                  > > directly
                  > > > to the driveshaft. Since auto companies have been
                  > > > hooking ICEs to driveshafts for more than 100
                  > > years
                  > > > now, they have figured out how to do it simply and
                  > > > cheaply.
                  > > >
                  > > > Otherwise, everything you associate with a series
                  > > > hybrid can be achieved with a parallel hybrid.
                  > > Like a
                  > > > series hybrid, a parallel hybrid system can be
                  > > used to
                  > > > charge a battery pack used for auxilliary
                  > > equipment.
                  > > > Like a series system, a parallel system can be
                  > > used in
                  > > > battery-only mode for the vast majority of the
                  > > time,
                  > > > especially at low speeds and in stop-and-go city
                  > > > driving.
                  > > >
                  > > > Respectfully,
                  > > >
                  > > > Forbes B-Black
                  > > > Santa Clarita, CA
                  > > >
                  > > > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > There is one other area were a series hybrid may
                  > > be
                  > > > > practical. Any vehicle that never or
                  > > > > very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds for
                  > > any
                  > > > > length of time could be a candidate.
                  > > > > If a mail truck or a delivery truck or a garbage
                  > > > > truck can fit into these category, a
                  > > > > series set up could work. The problem with this
                  > > is
                  > > > > that even though these types of
                  > > > > vehicles may do 90% of their driving in short
                  > > stop
                  > > > > and go spurts, if they have one or two
                  > > > > long freeway halls per day the advantages may be
                  > > > > lost.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > But a series hybrid should be vastly simpler and
                  > > > > cheaper to set up and maintain so that
                  > > > > has to be factored into the overall picture.
                  > > Also in
                  > > > > the case of something like a garbage
                  > > > > truck, there is the need to run many auxiliary
                  > > > > functions, separate from the main drive
                  > > > > motor.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Using a turbine in a series hybrid is a
                  > > fascinating
                  > > > > concept. While it may not pan out in
                  > > > > an automobile, it may be the perfect choice for
                  > > > > larger vehicles. The efficiency of a
                  > > > > turbine, its low maintenance costs and the
                  > > ability
                  > > > > to gang units as needed may at some
                  > > > > point beat the efficiency of parallel hybrid
                  > > piston
                  > > > > diesels, even on long haul units. And
                  > > > > although I've never heard of it being done, I
                  > > see no
                  > > > > reason a turbine could not burn
                  > > > > biodiesel.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                  > > > Santa Clarita, CA
                  > > >
                  > > > Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > __________________________________
                  > > > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home
                  > > page!
                  > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________
                  > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                  > > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
                  > > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >




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                • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                  ... Is that true? ... efficiently. You are getting beyond my limited knowledge, here. Turbines do take a while to get going. Throttling them back, I think,
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Lee Dekker <heprv@y...> wrote:
                    > I also heard that turbines take a great deal of time to get going.
                    Is that true?
                    > Apparently once running, they can be throttled back and idled very
                    efficiently.

                    You are getting beyond my limited knowledge, here. Turbines do take a
                    while to get going. Throttling them back, I think, can be done
                    without drastically reducing shaft speed, so when you need power
                    again, you've got enough speed to generate it, you just have to boost
                    fuel flow and output power.

                    Once again, I'm not really sure about this. Maybe someone else on the
                    list knows more about turbine dynamics than I do.

                    - FBB
                  • murdoch
                    ... Do you know if it can be used with biodiesel?
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:22:46 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

                      >Turbines are very groovy. The coolest setup around
                      >would be to have a turbine sized to provide for all
                      >your household needs sitting on a trailer. When it
                      >was too cloudy for your PV cells or to calm for your
                      >wind generator, you could kick on the turbine for your
                      >electricity. Then, when you needed to drive your BEV
                      >beyond battery range, you could hook up the trailer to
                      >your BEV.
                      >
                      >Another neat thing about the Capstone mircoturbine is
                      >that you can run it on just about anything flammable -
                      >gasoline, methane, natural gas, etc. Just set it up
                      >with the right injectors for the fuel being used and
                      >fire it up.

                      Do you know if it can be used with biodiesel?


                      >The main problems with turbines revolve around
                      >infrastructure questions. Even after more than a
                      >decade, the Capstone units still suffer from
                      >reliability issues. Microturbines need a lot more R&D
                      >before they are as reliable as ICEs. Then, we would
                      >have to convince the entire industry to switch from
                      >ICE-based power units to turbine-based power units -
                      >not an easy task.
                      >
                      >Yours,
                      >
                      >Forbes B-Black
                      >Santa Clarita, CA
                      >
                      >--- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> Thanks,
                      >>
                      >> What about using a turbine?
                      >>
                      >> --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
                      >> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> > Hi Lee,
                      >> >
                      >> > Your post highlights many misconceptions about
                      >> > parallel hybrids.
                      >> >
                      >> > Yes, a series configuration in simpler, but not
                      >> > drastically. The only added complexity to a
                      >> parallel
                      >> > architecture is hooking the output of the ICE
                      >> directly
                      >> > to the driveshaft. Since auto companies have been
                      >> > hooking ICEs to driveshafts for more than 100
                      >> years
                      >> > now, they have figured out how to do it simply and
                      >> > cheaply.
                      >> >
                      >> > Otherwise, everything you associate with a series
                      >> > hybrid can be achieved with a parallel hybrid.
                      >> Like a
                      >> > series hybrid, a parallel hybrid system can be
                      >> used to
                      >> > charge a battery pack used for auxilliary
                      >> equipment.
                      >> > Like a series system, a parallel system can be
                      >> used in
                      >> > battery-only mode for the vast majority of the
                      >> time,
                      >> > especially at low speeds and in stop-and-go city
                      >> > driving.
                      >> >
                      >> > Respectfully,
                      >> >
                      >> > Forbes B-Black
                      >> > Santa Clarita, CA
                      >> >
                      >> > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > > There is one other area were a series hybrid may
                      >> be
                      >> > > practical. Any vehicle that never or
                      >> > > very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds for
                      >> any
                      >> > > length of time could be a candidate.
                      >> > > If a mail truck or a delivery truck or a garbage
                      >> > > truck can fit into these category, a
                      >> > > series set up could work. The problem with this
                      >> is
                      >> > > that even though these types of
                      >> > > vehicles may do 90% of their driving in short
                      >> stop
                      >> > > and go spurts, if they have one or two
                      >> > > long freeway halls per day the advantages may be
                      >> > > lost.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > But a series hybrid should be vastly simpler and
                      >> > > cheaper to set up and maintain so that
                      >> > > has to be factored into the overall picture.
                      >> Also in
                      >> > > the case of something like a garbage
                      >> > > truck, there is the need to run many auxiliary
                      >> > > functions, separate from the main drive
                      >> > > motor.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > Using a turbine in a series hybrid is a
                      >> fascinating
                      >> > > concept. While it may not pan out in
                      >> > > an automobile, it may be the perfect choice for
                      >> > > larger vehicles. The efficiency of a
                      >> > > turbine, its low maintenance costs and the
                      >> ability
                      >> > > to gang units as needed may at some
                      >> > > point beat the efficiency of parallel hybrid
                      >> piston
                      >> > > diesels, even on long haul units. And
                      >> > > although I've never heard of it being done, I
                      >> see no
                      >> > > reason a turbine could not burn
                      >> > > biodiesel.
                      >> > >
                      >> >
                      >> > - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                      >> > Santa Clarita, CA
                      >> >
                      >> > Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > __________________________________
                      >> > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home
                      >> page!
                      >> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> __________________________________
                      >> Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                      >> Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
                      >> http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >__________________________________
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                      >
                    • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                      ... Sure, no problem. Turbines could also burn ethanol. - Forbes - Forbes Bagatelle-Black Santa Clarita, CA Join the Bicycle Restoration Group at
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 12, 2005
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                        --- murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:

                        > Do you know if it can be used with biodiesel?
                        >

                        Sure, no problem. Turbines could also burn ethanol.

                        - Forbes

                        - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                        Santa Clarita, CA

                        Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration




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                      • Arcologic@aol.com
                        Thanks, Forbes, For the informed posts. I have two pretty simple questions, maybe you or someone can help. Trains are series hybrids, aren t they--with no
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 13, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks, Forbes,

                          For the informed posts. I have two pretty simple questions, maybe you or
                          someone can help.

                          Trains are series hybrids, aren't they--with no batteries? Why does this
                          make sense for them? (Oh, I just remembered, I know a train expert, I will ask
                          him.)

                          On a "parallel hybrid" running electric-only-- are the pistons still moving?
                          That sounds crazy. If I were designing it I would put the clutch between
                          the ICE and the EM (electric motor) and unclutch the ICE in electric mode.
                          Please straighten me out. Of course, for a car like the Prius
                          (non-plugin-adapted), this is a non-issue.

                          Ernie Rogers

                          Forbes said,

                          >To my way of thinking, the only time a series hybrid
                          >architecture makes sense in an EV with an ICE is in a
                          >vehicle where the ICE is removable. When you are
                          >making short trips around town, leave the ICE at home
                          >and operate as a BEV. When you've got to cruise
                          >beyond battery range, hook up the ICE on a trailer or
                          >on a rack which slides into the square hitch mount on
                          >the back of your vehicle. Plug in the wires between
                          >the ICE generator and the battery pack/charger and
                          >you're good to go!






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                          ... Please let me know what he says! I know that diesels are very peaky in terms of efficiency. It may make sense in a diesel-electric series hybrid to run
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 13, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- Arcologic@... wrote:

                            > Trains are series hybrids, aren't they--with no
                            > batteries? Why does this
                            > make sense for them? (Oh, I just remembered, I know
                            > a train expert, I will ask
                            > him.)
                            >
                            Please let me know what he says! I know that diesels
                            are very peaky in terms of efficiency. It may make
                            sense in a diesel-electric series hybrid to run the
                            diesel at peak efficiency until the batteries are
                            charged then shut it off. This is just a guess.

                            > On a "parallel hybrid" running electric-only-- are
                            > the pistons still moving?
                            > That sounds crazy. If I were designing it I would
                            > put the clutch between
                            > the ICE and the EM (electric motor) and unclutch the
                            > ICE in electric mode.
                            > Please straighten me out. Of course, for a car like
                            > the Prius
                            > (non-plugin-adapted), this is a non-issue.
                            >
                            Ah... but my understanding is that this WAS an issue
                            in the design of the new Prius. The cylinders ARE
                            decoupled from the drive shaft on command via some
                            form of clutch or viscous coupling - or maybe they
                            decouple the pistons from the cam (someone who knows
                            more about this than I do, please set me straight!).
                            This way, "compression braking" does not burn energy
                            during deceleration. The ICE decoupling might also
                            occur during electric only operation, which would be
                            one reason why the folks at EnergyCS were able to
                            dramatically increase the usefullness of electric-only
                            mode on the Prius by simply adding batteries (and
                            making other minor tweaks).

                            Please! If you know more about this than I do, chime
                            in!

                            Thanks.

                            - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                            Santa Clarita, CA

                            Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration



                            __________________________________
                            Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
                            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                          • James Wilson
                            As far as I have read on the coasting. Some have complained about the ability to coast not being available,as it goes into regen. James wilson ...
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 13, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              As far as I have read on the coasting. Some have
                              complained about the ability to coast not being
                              available,as it goes into regen. James wilson

                              --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
                              wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > --- Arcologic@... wrote:
                              >
                              > > Trains are series hybrids, aren't they--with no
                              > > batteries? Why does this
                              > > make sense for them? (Oh, I just remembered, I
                              > know
                              > > a train expert, I will ask
                              > > him.)
                              > >
                              > Please let me know what he says! I know that
                              > diesels
                              > are very peaky in terms of efficiency. It may make
                              > sense in a diesel-electric series hybrid to run the
                              > diesel at peak efficiency until the batteries are
                              > charged then shut it off. This is just a guess.
                              >
                              > > On a "parallel hybrid" running electric-only-- are
                              > > the pistons still moving?
                              > > That sounds crazy. If I were designing it I
                              > would
                              > > put the clutch between
                              > > the ICE and the EM (electric motor) and unclutch
                              > the
                              > > ICE in electric mode.
                              > > Please straighten me out. Of course, for a car
                              > like
                              > > the Prius
                              > > (non-plugin-adapted), this is a non-issue.
                              > >
                              > Ah... but my understanding is that this WAS an issue
                              > in the design of the new Prius. The cylinders ARE
                              > decoupled from the drive shaft on command via some
                              > form of clutch or viscous coupling - or maybe they
                              > decouple the pistons from the cam (someone who knows
                              > more about this than I do, please set me straight!).
                              >
                              > This way, "compression braking" does not burn energy
                              > during deceleration. The ICE decoupling might also
                              > occur during electric only operation, which would be
                              > one reason why the folks at EnergyCS were able to
                              > dramatically increase the usefullness of
                              > electric-only
                              > mode on the Prius by simply adding batteries (and
                              > making other minor tweaks).
                              >
                              > Please! If you know more about this than I do,
                              > chime
                              > in!
                              >
                              > Thanks.
                              >
                              > - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                              > Santa Clarita, CA
                              >
                              > Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at
                              >
                              http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > __________________________________
                              > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
                              >
                              > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                              >




                              __________________________________
                              Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
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                            • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                              The EV1 had a regen button. Click it On and regen would automatically start when you lifted off the throttle. Click it Off and you could coast. Do any
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 13, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The EV1 had a regen button. Click it "On" and regen
                                would automatically start when you lifted off the
                                throttle. Click it "Off" and you could coast. Do any
                                of the hybrids have this feature?

                                - Forbes

                                --- James Wilson <jrem2@...> wrote:

                                > As far as I have read on the coasting. Some have
                                > complained about the ability to coast not being
                                > available,as it goes into regen. James wilson
                                >

                                - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                                Santa Clarita, CA

                                Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration



                                __________________________________
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                                Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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                              • Linda
                                ... Not per se, at least not yet. The currently available hybrids do have regenerative braking, which slow the car a bit when coasting (not really terribly
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 13, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On 10/13/05 6:37 PM, Forbes Bagatelle-Black wrote:

                                  > The EV1 had a regen button. Click it "On" and regen
                                  > would automatically start when you lifted off the
                                  > throttle. Click it "Off" and you could coast. Do any
                                  > of the hybrids have this feature?

                                  Not per se, at least not yet. The currently available hybrids do have
                                  regenerative braking, which slow the car a bit when coasting (not really
                                  terribly noticeably, then again, driving hybrids for the past four years
                                  might have dulled me to how other cars generally operate). More regeneration
                                  occurs when the brakes are applied lightly, and finally, full braking
                                  (non-regen) takes over when the brakes are pressed firmly, or near the end
                                  of the normal braking process.
                                • James Wilson
                                  I went to am Old Engine/Farm Show & a fellow had a Gas Turbine on a small Tractor look-alike. He would start it up and run it about 1 minute every hour. It
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 14, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I went to am Old Engine/Farm Show & a fellow had a
                                    Gas Turbine on a small Tractor look-alike. He would
                                    start it up and run it about 1 minute every hour. It
                                    sounded just like a jet engine starting up. It didn't
                                    take more than 5 or 6 seconds for it to rev up to
                                    starting speed. It sounded like a small Jet Engine to
                                    me. LOUD! It was a military surplus. (I think)
                                    James Wilson

                                    --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:

                                    > Thanks again very much.
                                    >
                                    > I also heard that turbines take a great deal of time
                                    > to get going. Is that true?
                                    > Apparently once running, they can be throttled back
                                    > and idled very efficiently. But if
                                    > the stop start cycle of an ICE diesel is much better
                                    > than a turbine, that too will make
                                    > their adoption or difficult.
                                    >
                                    > --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Turbines are very groovy. The coolest setup
                                    > around
                                    > > would be to have a turbine sized to provide for
                                    > all
                                    > > your household needs sitting on a trailer. When
                                    > it
                                    > > was too cloudy for your PV cells or to calm for
                                    > your
                                    > > wind generator, you could kick on the turbine for
                                    > your
                                    > > electricity. Then, when you needed to drive your
                                    > BEV
                                    > > beyond battery range, you could hook up the
                                    > trailer to
                                    > > your BEV.
                                    > >
                                    > > Another neat thing about the Capstone mircoturbine
                                    > is
                                    > > that you can run it on just about anything
                                    > flammable -
                                    > > gasoline, methane, natural gas, etc. Just set it
                                    > up
                                    > > with the right injectors for the fuel being used
                                    > and
                                    > > fire it up.
                                    > >
                                    > > The main problems with turbines revolve around
                                    > > infrastructure questions. Even after more than a
                                    > > decade, the Capstone units still suffer from
                                    > > reliability issues. Microturbines need a lot more
                                    > R&D
                                    > > before they are as reliable as ICEs. Then, we
                                    > would
                                    > > have to convince the entire industry to switch
                                    > from
                                    > > ICE-based power units to turbine-based power units
                                    > -
                                    > > not an easy task.
                                    > >
                                    > > Yours,
                                    > >
                                    > > Forbes B-Black
                                    > > Santa Clarita, CA
                                    > >
                                    > > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Thanks,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > What about using a turbine?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Hi Lee,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Your post highlights many misconceptions about
                                    > > > > parallel hybrids.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Yes, a series configuration in simpler, but
                                    > not
                                    > > > > drastically. The only added complexity to a
                                    > > > parallel
                                    > > > > architecture is hooking the output of the ICE
                                    > > > directly
                                    > > > > to the driveshaft. Since auto companies have
                                    > been
                                    > > > > hooking ICEs to driveshafts for more than 100
                                    > > > years
                                    > > > > now, they have figured out how to do it simply
                                    > and
                                    > > > > cheaply.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Otherwise, everything you associate with a
                                    > series
                                    > > > > hybrid can be achieved with a parallel hybrid.
                                    >
                                    > > > Like a
                                    > > > > series hybrid, a parallel hybrid system can be
                                    > > > used to
                                    > > > > charge a battery pack used for auxilliary
                                    > > > equipment.
                                    > > > > Like a series system, a parallel system can be
                                    > > > used in
                                    > > > > battery-only mode for the vast majority of the
                                    > > > time,
                                    > > > > especially at low speeds and in stop-and-go
                                    > city
                                    > > > > driving.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Respectfully,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Forbes B-Black
                                    > > > > Santa Clarita, CA
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > There is one other area were a series hybrid
                                    > may
                                    > > > be
                                    > > > > > practical. Any vehicle that never or
                                    > > > > > very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds
                                    > for
                                    > > > any
                                    > > > > > length of time could be a candidate.
                                    > > > > > If a mail truck or a delivery truck or a
                                    > garbage
                                    > > > > > truck can fit into these category, a
                                    > > > > > series set up could work. The problem with
                                    > this
                                    > > > is
                                    > > > > > that even though these types of
                                    > > > > > vehicles may do 90% of their driving in
                                    > short
                                    > > > stop
                                    > > > > > and go spurts, if they have one or two
                                    > > > > > long freeway halls per day the advantages
                                    > may be
                                    > > > > > lost.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > But a series hybrid should be vastly simpler
                                    > and
                                    > > > > > cheaper to set up and maintain so that
                                    > > > > > has to be factored into the overall picture.
                                    > > > Also in
                                    > > > > > the case of something like a garbage
                                    > > > > > truck, there is the need to run many
                                    > auxiliary
                                    > > > > > functions, separate from the main drive
                                    > > > > > motor.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Using a turbine in a series hybrid is a
                                    > > > fascinating
                                    > > > > > concept. While it may not pan out in
                                    > > > > > an automobile, it may be the perfect choice
                                    > for
                                    > > > > > larger vehicles. The efficiency of a
                                    > > > > > turbine, its low maintenance costs and the
                                    > > > ability
                                    > > > > > to gang units as needed may at some
                                    > > > > > point beat the efficiency of parallel hybrid
                                    > > > piston
                                    > > > > > diesels, even on long haul units. And
                                    > > > > > although I've never heard of it being done,
                                    > I
                                    > > > see no
                                    > > > > > reason a turbine could not burn
                                    > > > > > biodiesel.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                                    > > > > Santa Clarita, CA
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > __________________________________
                                    > > > > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home
                                    > > > page!
                                    > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > __________________________________
                                    > > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                                    > > > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
                                    > > > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > __________________________________
                                    > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                                    > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > __________________________________
                                    >
                                    === message truncated ===




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                                  • Lee Dekker
                                    Thanks for the reply. It was a sales guy at capstone micro turbine that told me their systems tended to be slow to start. Probably a bunch of different types
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 14, 2005
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                                      Thanks for the reply. It was a sales guy at capstone micro turbine that told me their
                                      systems tended to be slow to start. Probably a bunch of different types out there.

                                      Still, something for us to keep our eyes on because they're a great way to burn biodiesel
                                      and probably ethanol too.

                                      --- James Wilson <jrem2@...> wrote:

                                      > I went to am Old Engine/Farm Show & a fellow had a
                                      > Gas Turbine on a small Tractor look-alike. He would
                                      > start it up and run it about 1 minute every hour. It
                                      > sounded just like a jet engine starting up. It didn't
                                      > take more than 5 or 6 seconds for it to rev up to
                                      > starting speed. It sounded like a small Jet Engine to
                                      > me. LOUD! It was a military surplus. (I think)
                                      > James Wilson
                                      >
                                      > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Thanks again very much.
                                      > >
                                      > > I also heard that turbines take a great deal of time
                                      > > to get going. Is that true?
                                      > > Apparently once running, they can be throttled back
                                      > > and idled very efficiently. But if
                                      > > the stop start cycle of an ICE diesel is much better
                                      > > than a turbine, that too will make
                                      > > their adoption or difficult.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Turbines are very groovy. The coolest setup
                                      > > around
                                      > > > would be to have a turbine sized to provide for
                                      > > all
                                      > > > your household needs sitting on a trailer. When
                                      > > it
                                      > > > was too cloudy for your PV cells or to calm for
                                      > > your
                                      > > > wind generator, you could kick on the turbine for
                                      > > your
                                      > > > electricity. Then, when you needed to drive your
                                      > > BEV
                                      > > > beyond battery range, you could hook up the
                                      > > trailer to
                                      > > > your BEV.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Another neat thing about the Capstone mircoturbine
                                      > > is
                                      > > > that you can run it on just about anything
                                      > > flammable -
                                      > > > gasoline, methane, natural gas, etc. Just set it
                                      > > up
                                      > > > with the right injectors for the fuel being used
                                      > > and
                                      > > > fire it up.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The main problems with turbines revolve around
                                      > > > infrastructure questions. Even after more than a
                                      > > > decade, the Capstone units still suffer from
                                      > > > reliability issues. Microturbines need a lot more
                                      > > R&D
                                      > > > before they are as reliable as ICEs. Then, we
                                      > > would
                                      > > > have to convince the entire industry to switch
                                      > > from
                                      > > > ICE-based power units to turbine-based power units
                                      > > -
                                      > > > not an easy task.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yours,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Forbes B-Black
                                      > > > Santa Clarita, CA
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > Thanks,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > What about using a turbine?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- Forbes Bagatelle-Black <diarmaede@...>
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > Hi Lee,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Your post highlights many misconceptions about
                                      > > > > > parallel hybrids.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Yes, a series configuration in simpler, but
                                      > > not
                                      > > > > > drastically. The only added complexity to a
                                      > > > > parallel
                                      > > > > > architecture is hooking the output of the ICE
                                      > > > > directly
                                      > > > > > to the driveshaft. Since auto companies have
                                      > > been
                                      > > > > > hooking ICEs to driveshafts for more than 100
                                      > > > > years
                                      > > > > > now, they have figured out how to do it simply
                                      > > and
                                      > > > > > cheaply.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Otherwise, everything you associate with a
                                      > > series
                                      > > > > > hybrid can be achieved with a parallel hybrid.
                                      > >
                                      > > > > Like a
                                      > > > > > series hybrid, a parallel hybrid system can be
                                      > > > > used to
                                      > > > > > charge a battery pack used for auxilliary
                                      > > > > equipment.
                                      > > > > > Like a series system, a parallel system can be
                                      > > > > used in
                                      > > > > > battery-only mode for the vast majority of the
                                      > > > > time,
                                      > > > > > especially at low speeds and in stop-and-go
                                      > > city
                                      > > > > > driving.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Respectfully,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Forbes B-Black
                                      > > > > > Santa Clarita, CA
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > There is one other area were a series hybrid
                                      > > may
                                      > > > > be
                                      > > > > > > practical. Any vehicle that never or
                                      > > > > > > very seldom needs to achieve highway speeds
                                      > > for
                                      > > > > any
                                      > > > > > > length of time could be a candidate.
                                      > > > > > > If a mail truck or a delivery truck or a
                                      > > garbage
                                      > > > > > > truck can fit into these category, a
                                      > > > > > > series set up could work. The problem with
                                      > > this
                                      > > > > is
                                      > > > > > > that even though these types of
                                      > > > > > > vehicles may do 90% of their driving in
                                      > > short
                                      > > > > stop
                                      > > > > > > and go spurts, if they have one or two
                                      > > > > > > long freeway halls per day the advantages
                                      > > may be
                                      > > > > > > lost.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > But a series hybrid should be vastly simpler
                                      > > and
                                      > > > > > > cheaper to set up and maintain so that
                                      > > > > > > has to be factored into the overall picture.
                                      > > > > Also in
                                      > > > > > > the case of something like a garbage
                                      > > > > > > truck, there is the need to run many
                                      > > auxiliary
                                      > > > > > > functions, separate from the main drive
                                      > > > > > > motor.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Using a turbine in a series hybrid is a
                                      > > > > fascinating
                                      > > > > > > concept. While it may not pan out in
                                      > > > > > > an automobile, it may be the perfect choice
                                      > > for
                                      > > > > > > larger vehicles. The efficiency of a
                                      > > > > > > turbine, its low maintenance costs and the
                                      > > > > ability
                                      > > > > > > to gang units as needed may at some
                                      > > > > > > point beat the efficiency of parallel hybrid
                                      > > > > piston
                                      > > > > > > diesels, even on long haul units. And
                                      > > > > > > although I've never heard of it being done,
                                      > > I
                                      > > > > see no
                                      > > > > > > reason a turbine could not burn
                                      > > > > > > biodiesel.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > - Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                                      > > > > > Santa Clarita, CA
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Join the "Bicycle Restoration Group" at
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bicycle_Restoration
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > __________________________________
                                      > > > > > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home
                                      > > > > page!
                                      > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > __________________________________
                                      > > > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                                      > > > > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
                                      > > > > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      === message truncated ===




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                                      Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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                                    • Gil Dawson
                                      This seems like a good time to re-run a link to Graham Davies excellent website describing the Prius Synergy drive:
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 14, 2005
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                                        This seems like a good time to re-run a link to Graham Davies'
                                        excellent website describing the Prius Synergy drive:

                                        http://www.channel1.com/users/graham/MyToyotaPrius/PriusFrames.htm

                                        Unfortunately, it's gone off the air, so we'll have to content
                                        ourselves with a Motor Trend article which describes the same thing:

                                        http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/112_04_coy_win/index3.html

                                        And here's my version:

                                        Two electric motor-generators, the wheels, and an internal combustion
                                        engine (ICE) are coupled to a relatively simple mechanical gadget
                                        called a Planetary Gear System (PGS).

                                        +-------------+
                                        | |
                                        +-------+ | Planetary | +----+ +--------+
                                        | ICE |------|2 Gear 3|-----| MG |--------| Wheels |
                                        +-------+ | System | +----+ +--------+
                                        | | |
                                        +------1------+ |
                                        | |
                                        | |
                                        +----+ +---------+
                                        | MG |-------| Battery |
                                        +----+ +---------+


                                        The PGS exhibits three rotating mechanical shafts, or power ports:

                                        1) The Sun gear is connected to one of the motor-generators.

                                        2) The Planet gear cage (of three planet gears) is connected to the ICE.

                                        3) The Ring gear is connected to the other motor-generator and the wheels.

                                        The three ports rotate at fixed ratios, in the sense that, if you fix
                                        the RPM on any two ports, then the RPM at the third port is
                                        determined by the gears' mechanics. Power is RPM times torque. In a
                                        somewhat less obvious but no less direct way, power flow through the
                                        PGS is constrained by a simple rule:

                                        The algebraic sum of power inputs at the three ports must at all
                                        times be zero.

                                        By algebraic sum, we simply mean that power drawn into or pushed into
                                        the Planetary Gear System should have the opposite sign from power
                                        taken out or pushed out of the Planetary Gear System. (Power put
                                        into the wheels cause the car to accelerate; power drawn from the
                                        wheels is what we call ReGen. These would have opposite signs.)

                                        Thus, power (at an appropriate RPM) put in (or taken out) at any pair
                                        of the ports thus deterimines the power pushed out (or drawn in) via
                                        the third port.

                                        Both motor-generators are connected via power management units to the
                                        battery. Under computer control, either motor-generator can
                                        independently move power from the battery into its port of the
                                        planetary gear system, or it can take power from its port of the
                                        planetary-gear system and put it into the battery. Since the
                                        computer can specify two of the ports' power flows, it controls also
                                        the third.

                                        Whatever the ICE does, even if it is stopped, the speed of the
                                        vehicle -- forward or backward, regen or not -- can be controlled
                                        entirely by those two motor-generators moving power in and out of the
                                        battery and the PGS.

                                        The ICE feeds energy from gasoline into the PGS. By contrast with
                                        the motor-generators, the ICE is constrained to move power in one
                                        direction only. Except when starting the ICE, power cannot be drawn
                                        by or pushed into the ICE.

                                        By controlling the two motor-generators, the computer can cause the
                                        power from the ICE to turn the wheels or charge the batteries or both
                                        in any continuous combination.

                                        As car speed, regen, and charging power are all controlled by the two
                                        motor-generators, the RPM of the ICE can be held constant, supporting
                                        its optimization for efficiency or pollution.

                                        --Gil
                                      • Linda
                                        ... No... it s only moved! :-) Graham s a great guy; drop him a line and tell him how
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 14, 2005
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                                          On 10/14/05 6:13 PM, Gil Dawson wrote:

                                          > This seems like a good time to re-run a link to Graham Davies'
                                          > excellent website describing the Prius Synergy drive:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.channel1.com/users/graham/MyToyotaPrius/PriusFrames.htm
                                          >
                                          > Unfortunately, it's gone off the air,

                                          No... it's only moved! :-)

                                          <http://www.home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/PriusFrames.htm>

                                          Graham's a great guy; drop him a line and tell him how much you enjoy his
                                          site.

                                          peace,
                                          Linda
                                        • Arcologic@aol.com
                                          Thanks, Gil, You answered my previous question. At least for the synergy drive, when the car is in electric only mode, the ICE shaft is stationary and no
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Oct 15, 2005
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                                            Thanks, Gil,

                                            You answered my previous question. At least for the "synergy drive," when
                                            the car is in electric only mode, the ICE shaft is stationary and no clutching
                                            is necessary.

                                            By the way, Toyota certainly didn't discover this three port gearing, it was
                                            well known long before they came up with the control system. Still, a great
                                            job and a logical solution.

                                            Ernie Rogers

                                            In a message dated 10/15/2005 4:44:07 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
                                            evworld@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                            This seems like a good time to re-run a link to Graham Davies'
                                            excellent website describing the Prius Synergy drive:







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