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RE: [evworld] LA Times Fuel Cell article

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  • Yoder, Chris
    In CA we use a Solar Factor of 5 to estimate how much power a given solar array would use. So a 6 kW system would produce, on average, 30 kW a day. The
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 1 5:44 AM
      In CA we use a 'Solar Factor' of 5 to estimate how much power a given
      solar array would use. So a 6 kW system would produce, on average, 30 kW a
      day.

      The tZero with L/Ion batteries gets well over 300 miles range.
      http://www.acpropulsion.com I'm unaware of an H2 vehicle that gets over 120
      miles range. As I understand it, to give an H2 vehicle the kind of range
      that people expect from their gasoline powered vehicle, you'd have to carry
      around liquified H2.

      Fast recharge of EV batteries is *OLD* technology!!! AeroVironment
      http://www.aerovironment.com is still a leader in this field. They could
      get a 50% charge into an EV1 battery pack in 10 minutes. There was a fleet
      of airport vans that used the Chrysler mini-van EV for many of it's routes.
      They would fast-charge while waiting in the Taxi pit at LAX and they could
      fast-charge in downtown LA as well. I know at one point AeroVironment drove
      a pair of EV1s over 1,000 miles each in a 24 hour period. (I think if you
      dig around in their press releases you'll find this information on the
      AeroVironment site.)

      Saw a show on alternative fueled vehicles and they showed an H2 filling
      station. Comparing the H2 filling procedure to filling a vehicle with
      gasoline, the toxic waste station on the corner will win hands down.
      Charging your EV is way simpler than either of these procedures. The H2
      filling procedure is something that only a few consumers would be willing to
      do. (You'll never fill your H2 vehicle at home, that's for certain!)

      So: Compared to an EV, H2 has less range, uses at least 3x more power
      (I've heard 4x), takes more time to recharge, is harder to recharge, and it
      is based on more expensive material. I'm still trying to figure out why
      they are more 'mainstream' than EVs...

      -- Chris Yoder
      http://www.its.caltech.edu/~rcy
    • csceadraham
      ... I suppose you mean 30 kWh. ... Several have gone more than 300 km, see below. ... Vehicles that do this are not hypothetical. They date back over 25 years,
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 1 7:05 AM
        --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com,
        "Yoder, Chris" <chris_yoder@c...> included:

        > In CA we use a 'Solar Factor' of 5
        > to estimate how much power a given
        > solar array would use.
        > So a 6 kW system would produce, on average,
        > 30 kW a day.

        I suppose you mean 30 kWh.

        >
        > The tZero with L/Ion batteries gets well over
        > 300 miles range. http://www.acpropulsion.com
        > I'm unaware of an H2 vehicle that gets over 120
        > miles range.

        Several have gone more than 300 km, see below.

        > As I understand it, to give an H2 vehicle the kind of range
        > that people expect from their gasoline powered vehicle,
        > you'd have to carry around liquified H2.

        Vehicles that do this are not hypothetical.
        They date back over 25 years, and the recent
        10,000-km endurance run of a GM Zafira
        featured just such tankage.
        (It did not, however, demonstrate 10,000-km
        endurance in all subsystems. The tires, AFAIK,
        came through like champs, but
        the fuel cell stack was replaced about halfway through. )

        Because it had a FCE powertrain, the Zafira
        was not able to go more than 184 km on an lH2 load,
        but lH2 BMWs, both in recent years and in the 70s,
        have been able to go more than 300 km by burning
        their hydrogen, plus get another 600 km from a
        small gasoline tank feeding the same engine.

        As a zero-local-emission motor fuel,
        aluminum is lighter than hydrogen,
        and just as many Al-burners have left the lab.
        But it's a mistake to point to the lameness of
        hydrogen FCEVs -- which is the whole point of their
        existence and subsidy by fossil-fuel-taxing governments --
        as indicative of the merits of all hydrogen motoring.
        It can be done better, and in fact *was* done better,
        years and years ago. With some relaxation of the
        definition of "hydrogen", it will be done better still.

        > Fast recharge of EV batteries is *OLD* technology!!! ...
        > [enthusiasm and perplexity snipped]


        --- Graham Cowan
        http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc --
        How individual mobility gains nuclear cachet
      • murdoch_1998
        ... more power ... recharge, and it ... out why ... One of the under-discussed elephants hanging out in the room, in my view, is the question of where we are
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 1 9:50 AM
          > So: Compared to an EV, H2 has less range, uses at least 3x
          more power
          > (I've heard 4x), takes more time to recharge, is harder to
          recharge, and it
          > is based on more expensive material. I'm still trying to figure
          out why
          > they are more 'mainstream' than EVs...
          >
          > -- Chris Yoder
          > http://www.its.caltech.edu/~rcy

          One of the under-discussed elephants hanging out in the room, in my
          view, is the question of where we are with respect to NiMH battery
          pricing, availability, quality and appropriate-sizing, etc.

          For about eight years now, these batteries have been the critical
          energy-repository in the nascient hybrid efforts of Honda and
          Toyota. During that time, while legal-wrangling continued and
          continued and continued, over this important technology, and while
          it was partly in the hands of GM, and then (now) partly in the hands
          of Chevron-Texaco, there was virtually no discussion of it.

          We seem to be at a point where the well-heeled prototype builders
          can give serious consideration to a strong potential battery
          competitor (Lithium chemistries of various sorts) but for bringing
          advanced batteries to market, and for judging which advanced battery
          chemistries have reached a critical-mass level for manufacturing in
          relatively affordable numbers, I think the picture to me is more
          murky (murkier?)

          I don't mean to imply some definitive "NiMH is it!" or "Li- is it!"
          or "H2 is it...!" sort of judgement, but rather to point out that of
          the various competitors (including those not mentioned such as
          alternatives to H2 in fuel cells and alternatives in batteries and
          other propulsion systems), NiMH is already being sold to the public
          in very very large masses, but only in a very controlled way: people
          are waiting in lines to buy it as a rechargeable battery in regen
          brakes (in Priuses). But they are not allowed to buy it for primary
          grid-charged propulsion. So, why are cars available with NiMH as a
          more central power source?

          One of the things I noticed in our project with Felix to try to make
          a Prius+ is that the project is a fresh opportunity to take a look
          around and assess some of the battery choices out there. To my
          surprise, with respect to NiMH, we are still talking about many of
          the good choices being D-Cell sized. By "good" choices, I am
          including important criteria that they be very affordable, proven,
          of good quality and appropriate specs, and that one not get ANY run-
          around from any prima-donna advanced-battery manufacturers who think
          that their invention is the bomb and that they deserve more than the
          going price for it, with unsure general-public availabilty and
          pricing if one chooses to proceed one's expensive project into mass-
          production.

          But I shouldn't say that I am surprised. It isn't just my tendency
          to be wary of partly-oil-company-owned assets, but also a begrudging
          understanding that to some extent, the battery industry does not
          turn on a dime and ramp up production in new chemistries.

          Yes, the H2 propulsion scheme as proposed and simplified by the
          powers-that-be is in part a scam on our sensibilities. Yes, if only
          the auto companies would cease their anti-grid-chargeable posture
          and get a move-on, I think NiMH is something they could turn to, and
          in turn I think the battery companies could really ramp up, as they
          are, anyway, doing in part.

          I'm sure I will be disagreed-with in some strenuous way. Ok, so
          long as I have my say.
        • Paul Scott
          Eric, I got this from William Korthof: An EV driven 10,000 miles per year at 0.3 kWh AC per mile takes 3000 kWh per year. We typically get over 1825 kWh/kW per
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 1 12:07 PM
            Eric,

            I got this from William Korthof:

            An EV driven 10,000 miles per year at 0.3 kWh AC per mile takes
            3000 kWh per year. We typically get over 1825 kWh/kW per year
            on systems in the LA basin... so 1.64 kW of rated solar output per
            electric car, or around 2kW of solar panels (before inefficiencies).

            I think 6 kW might be a little optimistic for a fuel cell car, but
            *maybe* that could work. I would estimate more like 8 kW.

            For BEVs, 100,000,000 cars = 200,000,000 kW (200 GW solar),
            or 717 square miles total. That's 27 miles by 27 miles.... in
            Nevada, it would probably take less area. I bet the land area
            taken by any of the following well exceeds 717 sq miles:
            -degraded coal mining operations
            -refineries+pipelines+oil storage+gas stations
            -US power plant facilities
            -highways
            -parking lots and other paved areas
            -residential roof tops with south-facing exposure
            -easements for power lines in the US

            For FCEVs, it would take three to five times as much...
            approximately 2,868 square miles by my calculation. That's a
            bigger area. The cost for such a solar investment is also rather
            daunting... about 6 trillion USD at present costs. ouch.
            ************************************************

            From: "Eric Krofchak" <EricKrofchak@...>


            So to power a hundred million cars for 10,000 miles a year each
            (assuming 10watts/sq ft) would require around 60 Billion sq ft of
            solar panels (thats about 2153 sq miles worth). Does anyone
            else see a problem here.

            >
            > The 6 kW system can more-or-less make the FCV move 10,000 miles per year.
          • murdoch_1998
            ... At some point I think we need to start including the roof tops not only of residences but of vehicles, anything from small cars to large cars to SUVs to
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 1 4:49 PM
              > For BEVs, 100,000,000 cars = 200,000,000 kW (200 GW solar),
              > or 717 square miles total. That's 27 miles by 27 miles.... in
              > Nevada, it would probably take less area. I bet the land area
              > taken by any of the following well exceeds 717 sq miles:
              > -degraded coal mining operations
              > -refineries+pipelines+oil storage+gas stations
              > -US power plant facilities
              > -highways
              > -parking lots and other paved areas
              > -residential roof tops with south-facing exposure
              > -easements for power lines in the US

              At some point I think we need to start including the roof tops not
              only of residences but of vehicles, anything from small cars to
              large cars to SUVs to semi-trucks and their trailers. Yes, PV and
              the associated electronics can be expensive, but I see no reason to
              assume that this will be so completely true forever that we cannot
              incorporate a bit of direct solar-to-car-to-energy-storage-and-use
              into our future transportation paradigm. As we've all seen, many
              cars just tend to sit there and collect sunlight (to the point where
              it is regarded as the enemy and requires shielding in a parking
              lot). A parked car could be harvesting a bit of energy, and one in
              motion which harvests it could sort of be regarded as "sailing" a
              bit.

              For the parking lots and paved areas, yes, this somewhat coincides,
              though I do not think it should preclude considering the equipping
              of individual vehicles with a moderate amount of PV.
            • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
              Given the choice between mounting PVs on roofs or on cars, I would choose the roofs. In a future world where PVs are cheap, durable and produced in an
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 1 4:54 PM
                Given the choice between mounting PVs on roofs or on
                cars, I would choose the roofs. In a future world
                where PVs are cheap, durable and produced in an
                environmentally-friendly manner, I say put 'em on
                everything!

                Yours,

                Forbes
                --- murdoch_1998 <murdoch@...> wrote:

                > At some point I think we need to start including the
                > roof tops not
                > only of residences but of vehicles, anything from
                > small cars to
                > large cars to SUVs to semi-trucks and their
                > trailers. Yes, PV and
                > the associated electronics can be expensive, but I
                > see no reason to
                > assume that this will be so completely true forever
                > that we cannot
                > incorporate a bit of direct
                > solar-to-car-to-energy-storage-and-use
                > into our future transportation paradigm. As we've
                > all seen, many
                > cars just tend to sit there and collect sunlight (to
                > the point where
                > it is regarded as the enemy and requires shielding
                > in a parking
                > lot). A parked car could be harvesting a bit of
                > energy, and one in
                > motion which harvests it could sort of be regarded
                > as "sailing" a
                > bit.
                >
                > For the parking lots and paved areas, yes, this
                > somewhat coincides,
                > though I do not think it should preclude considering
                > the equipping
                > of individual vehicles with a moderate amount of PV.
                >
                >




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              • murdoch_1998
                Aside from expense, I think there would probably be a few problems with putting PV on the roofs of cars that I might not be fully anticipating. Maybe, for
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 1 7:59 PM
                  Aside from expense, I think there would probably be a few problems
                  with putting PV on the roofs of cars that I might not be fully
                  anticipating. Maybe, for example, dissipating the heat would be
                  difficult and this could cause discomfiture in the car?

                  But basically, I'm not sure if I fully agree with your choice.

                  A moderate amount of PV directly on the roof of a car that is able
                  to use the energy either immediately or within a few hours seems to
                  me a very sensible idea. Once converted from sunlight to
                  electricity, the energy is being utilized in a very quick way.

                  Then, there are even larger structures, such as the large trucks
                  with flat roofs just sort of begging to be utilized. Maybe PV on a
                  roof like that could help with the energy needed for refrigerating
                  the truck, or could help improve the mileage for a trucker concerned
                  about fuel costs?

                  We see these solar car races, and they are clearly valuable
                  intellectual exercises that are not necessarily intended to lead to
                  implementation of those exact vehicles. But why not incorporate
                  just a smidgeon of that technology?

                  A lot hinges on getting NiMH, or some comparable technology, into
                  vehicles along with motors etc., so they can make use of power from
                  the grid or from the roof or wherever. Until that happens, ... as
                  long as we are limited to hybrids with just enough battery power to
                  provide for regen braking and very short NEV runs, .... these other
                  ideas are further away. Why the limitation is so clear and absolute
                  is something we will have to ask the auto companies.

                  --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                  <diarmaede@y...> wrote:
                  > Given the choice between mounting PVs on roofs or on
                  > cars, I would choose the roofs. In a future world
                  > where PVs are cheap, durable and produced in an
                  > environmentally-friendly manner, I say put 'em on
                  > everything!
                  >
                  > Yours,
                  >
                  > Forbes
                  > --- murdoch_1998 <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > At some point I think we need to start including the
                  > > roof tops not
                  > > only of residences but of vehicles, anything from
                  > > small cars to
                  > > large cars to SUVs to semi-trucks and their
                  > > trailers. Yes, PV and
                  > > the associated electronics can be expensive, but I
                  > > see no reason to
                  > > assume that this will be so completely true forever
                  > > that we cannot
                  > > incorporate a bit of direct
                  > > solar-to-car-to-energy-storage-and-use
                  > > into our future transportation paradigm. As we've
                  > > all seen, many
                  > > cars just tend to sit there and collect sunlight (to
                  > > the point where
                  > > it is regarded as the enemy and requires shielding
                  > > in a parking
                  > > lot). A parked car could be harvesting a bit of
                  > > energy, and one in
                  > > motion which harvests it could sort of be regarded
                  > > as "sailing" a
                  > > bit.
                  > >
                  > > For the parking lots and paved areas, yes, this
                  > > somewhat coincides,
                  > > though I do not think it should preclude considering
                  > > the equipping
                  > > of individual vehicles with a moderate amount of PV.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
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                • James Wilson
                  Does anyone have pictures or other imformation on the three auto s that the big three built one each of?? Each company made one,diesel electric Hybrid. I
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 1 9:28 PM
                    Does anyone have pictures or other imformation on the
                    three auto's that the big three built one each of??
                    Each company made one,diesel electric Hybrid. I passed
                    the link to the website,& they changed the link to go
                    to some Hybrid meeting in Florida.
                    If anyone has pictures or other imformation on the
                    three auto's that the big three built one each
                    of,please e-mail them to me. JW
                    jrem2@... Thanks in advance.



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                  • Lee Dekker
                    Sorry but, I tend to agree with all you said. And would add one other factor into the equation. The battery consortium (USCAR). Could just be my skeptical
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 2 8:57 AM
                      Sorry but, I tend to agree with all you said. And would add one other factor into the
                      equation.
                      The battery consortium (USCAR). Could just be my skeptical nature but I think this
                      organization exists, at least partly, to keep a lid on innovation, production and
                      acceptance. With the group being made up of the same entities who have consistently
                      bashed EVs and ignored Plug in hybrids, how can one come to any other collusion.


                      > One of the under-discussed elephants hanging out in the room, in my
                      > view, is the question of where we are with respect to NiMH battery
                      > pricing, availability, quality and appropriate-sizing, etc.
                      >
                      > For about eight years now, these batteries have been the critical
                      > energy-repository in the nascient hybrid efforts of Honda and
                      > Toyota. During that time, while legal-wrangling continued and
                      > continued and continued, over this important technology, and while
                      > it was partly in the hands of GM, and then (now) partly in the hands
                      > of Chevron-Texaco, there was virtually no discussion of it.
                      >
                      > We seem to be at a point where the well-heeled prototype builders
                      > can give serious consideration to a strong potential battery
                      > competitor (Lithium chemistries of various sorts) but for bringing
                      > advanced batteries to market, and for judging which advanced battery
                      > chemistries have reached a critical-mass level for manufacturing in
                      > relatively affordable numbers, I think the picture to me is more
                      > murky (murkier?)
                      >
                      > I don't mean to imply some definitive "NiMH is it!" or "Li- is it!"
                      > or "H2 is it...!" sort of judgement, but rather to point out that of
                      > the various competitors (including those not mentioned such as
                      > alternatives to H2 in fuel cells and alternatives in batteries and
                      > other propulsion systems), NiMH is already being sold to the public
                      > in very very large masses, but only in a very controlled way: people
                      > are waiting in lines to buy it as a rechargeable battery in regen
                      > brakes (in Priuses). But they are not allowed to buy it for primary
                      > grid-charged propulsion. So, why are cars available with NiMH as a
                      > more central power source?
                      >
                      > One of the things I noticed in our project with Felix to try to make
                      > a Prius+ is that the project is a fresh opportunity to take a look
                      > around and assess some of the battery choices out there. To my
                      > surprise, with respect to NiMH, we are still talking about many of
                      > the good choices being D-Cell sized. By "good" choices, I am
                      > including important criteria that they be very affordable, proven,
                      > of good quality and appropriate specs, and that one not get ANY run-
                      > around from any prima-donna advanced-battery manufacturers who think
                      > that their invention is the bomb and that they deserve more than the
                      > going price for it, with unsure general-public availabilty and
                      > pricing if one chooses to proceed one's expensive project into mass-
                      > production.
                      >
                      > But I shouldn't say that I am surprised. It isn't just my tendency
                      > to be wary of partly-oil-company-owned assets, but also a begrudging
                      > understanding that to some extent, the battery industry does not
                      > turn on a dime and ramp up production in new chemistries.
                      >
                      > Yes, the H2 propulsion scheme as proposed and simplified by the
                      > powers-that-be is in part a scam on our sensibilities. Yes, if only
                      > the auto companies would cease their anti-grid-chargeable posture
                      > and get a move-on, I think NiMH is something they could turn to, and
                      > in turn I think the battery companies could really ramp up, as they
                      > are, anyway, doing in part.
                      >
                      > I'm sure I will be disagreed-with in some strenuous way. Ok, so
                      > long as I have my say.
                      >
                      >





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                    • murdoch_1998
                      Well, let s make an effort to keep a sort of over-the-years discussion going on this, a bit. Those of us who have been watching it for awhile may have some
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 2 11:21 AM
                        Well, let's make an effort to keep a sort of over-the-years
                        discussion going on this, a bit. Those of us who have been watching
                        it for awhile may have some "stamina" ingrained in us for this,
                        having an idea of what we are up against.... but this is a fine line
                        because it can lead to a jaded sort of silence, and maybe we should
                        step up our mutual discussion, so that we can all be as aware as
                        possible as to the state of things, as to these proposed battery
                        solutions.

                        60% of the problem that I alluded to, as far as anticipating
                        disagreement, is that any mention of ECD or NiMH usually brings
                        about some sort of argument. Even so, I think it's important that
                        folks know that Chevron-Texaco still, to this day, is a major major
                        player in batteries for vehicles, because they own 20% of ECD
                        outright (symbol ENER on the exchanges) and another percentage of
                        the joint venture with ECD to make NiMH batteries (about 50%?)
                        giving them about (50%+ .2*50) = about 60% de facto control over
                        ECDs NiMH interests, though I may well have oversimplified or
                        misconstrued here.

                        Since ECD was recently able to settle their lawsuits with Toyota,
                        Matsushita, etc. (Honda wasn't mentioned directly, that I recall,
                        but I assume that somewhere in there, they probably source their
                        NiMH from a battery manufacturer that is operating within the legal
                        framework), this means ... what? Does it mean that Chevron-Texaco
                        (in my guestimate... critical to giving ECD the financial and legal
                        backing to fight the battles that led to the settlement) would agree
                        to a settlement which might ultimately allow various manufacturers
                        (Matsushita, Sanyo, others?) to make NiMH so well and so affordably
                        that production cars could be made, in the millions, able to plug in
                        with a modest EV-only mode, rather than just regen-brake?

                        I think one could speculate either way, whether or not Chevron
                        Texaco would concern itself with that scenario. I think it's an
                        issue that needs a bit of discussion. When there is such a critical
                        critical technology going on, I think it's very relevant that we
                        note that it's part-owned by one of the major Oil companies. It is
                        impossible for me to ignore what appears to be (pending further
                        knowledge) the steadfast refusal of any major (or minor) auto
                        company even to discuss using those NiMH batteries for grid-charged
                        propulsion, or EV-only operation.

                        Is it coincidence then that we are seeing the blossoming of NiMH-
                        equipped hybrids, such as Ford's (Sanyo NiMH) but a continued
                        absolute worldwide shutout on production-manufacturer grid-charged
                        highway-capable hybrids with some EV-only mode? Sure, I guess. If
                        someone says so.

                        As to USCAR, and some of the other government-related efforts I
                        might tend to agree, from my limited knowledge, but I don't know as
                        much about that.




                        --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Lee Dekker <heprv@y...> wrote:
                        > Sorry but, I tend to agree with all you said. And would add one
                        other factor into the
                        > equation.
                        > The battery consortium (USCAR). Could just be my skeptical nature
                        but I think this
                        > organization exists, at least partly, to keep a lid on innovation,
                        production and
                        > acceptance. With the group being made up of the same entities who
                        have consistently
                        > bashed EVs and ignored Plug in hybrids, how can one come to any
                        other collusion.
                        >
                        >
                        > > One of the under-discussed elephants hanging out in the room, in
                        my
                        > > view, is the question of where we are with respect to NiMH
                        battery
                        > > pricing, availability, quality and appropriate-sizing, etc.
                        > >
                        > > For about eight years now, these batteries have been the
                        critical
                        > > energy-repository in the nascient hybrid efforts of Honda and
                        > > Toyota. During that time, while legal-wrangling continued and
                        > > continued and continued, over this important technology, and
                        while
                        > > it was partly in the hands of GM, and then (now) partly in the
                        hands
                        > > of Chevron-Texaco, there was virtually no discussion of it.
                        > >
                        > > We seem to be at a point where the well-heeled prototype
                        builders
                        > > can give serious consideration to a strong potential battery
                        > > competitor (Lithium chemistries of various sorts) but for
                        bringing
                        > > advanced batteries to market, and for judging which advanced
                        battery
                        > > chemistries have reached a critical-mass level for manufacturing
                        in
                        > > relatively affordable numbers, I think the picture to me is more
                        > > murky (murkier?)
                        > >
                        > > I don't mean to imply some definitive "NiMH is it!" or "Li- is
                        it!"
                        > > or "H2 is it...!" sort of judgement, but rather to point out
                        that of
                        > > the various competitors (including those not mentioned such as
                        > > alternatives to H2 in fuel cells and alternatives in batteries
                        and
                        > > other propulsion systems), NiMH is already being sold to the
                        public
                        > > in very very large masses, but only in a very controlled way:
                        people
                        > > are waiting in lines to buy it as a rechargeable battery in
                        regen
                        > > brakes (in Priuses). But they are not allowed to buy it for
                        primary
                        > > grid-charged propulsion. So, why are cars available with NiMH
                        as a
                        > > more central power source?
                        > >
                        > > One of the things I noticed in our project with Felix to try to
                        make
                        > > a Prius+ is that the project is a fresh opportunity to take a
                        look
                        > > around and assess some of the battery choices out there. To my
                        > > surprise, with respect to NiMH, we are still talking about many
                        of
                        > > the good choices being D-Cell sized. By "good" choices, I am
                        > > including important criteria that they be very affordable,
                        proven,
                        > > of good quality and appropriate specs, and that one not get ANY
                        run-
                        > > around from any prima-donna advanced-battery manufacturers who
                        think
                        > > that their invention is the bomb and that they deserve more than
                        the
                        > > going price for it, with unsure general-public availabilty and
                        > > pricing if one chooses to proceed one's expensive project into
                        mass-
                        > > production.
                        > >
                        > > But I shouldn't say that I am surprised. It isn't just my
                        tendency
                        > > to be wary of partly-oil-company-owned assets, but also a
                        begrudging
                        > > understanding that to some extent, the battery industry does not
                        > > turn on a dime and ramp up production in new chemistries.
                        > >
                        > > Yes, the H2 propulsion scheme as proposed and simplified by the
                        > > powers-that-be is in part a scam on our sensibilities. Yes, if
                        only
                        > > the auto companies would cease their anti-grid-chargeable
                        posture
                        > > and get a move-on, I think NiMH is something they could turn to,
                        and
                        > > in turn I think the battery companies could really ramp up, as
                        they
                        > > are, anyway, doing in part.
                        > >
                        > > I'm sure I will be disagreed-with in some strenuous way. Ok, so
                        > > long as I have my say.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • murdoch_1998
                        I don t have the pictures you re seeking, but a point: It almost sounds to me like you are talking about the PNGV prototype vehicles, and not the production
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 2 5:28 PM
                          I don't have the pictures you're seeking, but a point:

                          It almost sounds to me like you are talking about the PNGV prototype
                          vehicles, and not the production hybrids that GM and Ford are more
                          or less already in the market with (a Ford SUV and a GM Pickup I
                          think.... maybe available to fleets or consumers, depending on the
                          manufacturer... hard to keep track of these things).

                          The PNGV vehicles were built in the 90s to try to shoot for a family-
                          sedan full-function sort of vehicle that could get 80 mpg and be
                          produced. I suppose with the production hybrids they're now
                          releasing, the Detroiters would claim that some of the PNGV
                          prototype technology is in those hybrids. And should we complain?
                          I don't see why. Like I said, it's great if Detroit is bringing out
                          hybrids (however late to the party). They just should stop whining
                          about it when California tries to kick this process in the pants
                          even further and encourage the best-mileage vehicles with new laws
                          such as the carpool lane law revision.



                          --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, James Wilson <jrem2@y...> wrote:
                          > Does anyone have pictures or other imformation on the
                          > three auto's that the big three built one each of??
                          > Each company made one,diesel electric Hybrid. I passed
                          > the link to the website,& they changed the link to go
                          > to some Hybrid meeting in Florida.
                          > If anyone has pictures or other imformation on the
                          > three auto's that the big three built one each
                          > of,please e-mail them to me. JW
                          > jrem2@y... Thanks in advance.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > __________________________________
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                        • James Wilson
                          Yes, the PNGV prototype is what I have in mind! I suppose they wish to hide the knowledge of them,same as the EV-1. JW ... __________________________________
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 2 8:50 PM
                            Yes, the PNGV prototype is what I have in mind!
                            I suppose they wish to hide the knowledge of them,same
                            as the EV-1. JW


                            --- murdoch_1998 <murdoch@...> wrote:

                            > I don't have the pictures you're seeking, but a
                            > point:
                            >
                            > It almost sounds to me like you are talking about
                            > the PNGV prototype
                            > vehicles, and not the production hybrids that GM and
                            > Ford are more
                            > or less already in the market with (a Ford SUV and a
                            > GM Pickup I
                            > think.... maybe available to fleets or consumers,
                            > depending on the
                            > manufacturer... hard to keep track of these things).
                            >
                            > The PNGV vehicles were built in the 90s to try to
                            > shoot for a family-
                            > sedan full-function sort of vehicle that could get
                            > 80 mpg and be
                            > produced. I suppose with the production hybrids
                            > they're now
                            > releasing, the Detroiters would claim that some of
                            > the PNGV
                            > prototype technology is in those hybrids. And
                            > should we complain?
                            > I don't see why. Like I said, it's great if Detroit
                            > is bringing out
                            > hybrids (however late to the party). They just
                            > should stop whining
                            > about it when California tries to kick this process
                            > in the pants
                            > even further and encourage the best-mileage vehicles
                            > with new laws
                            > such as the carpool lane law revision.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, James Wilson
                            > <jrem2@y...> wrote:
                            > > Does anyone have pictures or other imformation on
                            > the
                            > > three auto's that the big three built one each
                            > of??
                            > > Each company made one,diesel electric Hybrid. I
                            > passed
                            > > the link to the website,& they changed the link to
                            > go
                            > > to some Hybrid meeting in Florida.
                            > > If anyone has pictures or other imformation on the
                            > > three auto's that the big three built one each
                            > > of,please e-mail them to me. JW
                            > > jrem2@y... Thanks in advance.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > __________________________________
                            > > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other
                            > providers!
                            > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                            >
                            >




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                          • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                            ... This is very true. Just to put things in perspective, I asked a colleague who was in charge of the solar car at Cal Poly, SLO in the early 90s about the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 3 8:59 AM
                              --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "murdoch_1998" <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                              > Aside from expense, I think there would probably be a few problems
                              > with putting PV on the roofs of cars that I might not be fully
                              > anticipating. Maybe, for example, dissipating the heat would be
                              > difficult and this could cause discomfiture in the car?
                              >
                              > But basically, I'm not sure if I fully agree with your choice.
                              >
                              > A moderate amount of PV directly on the roof of a car that is able
                              > to use the energy either immediately or within a few hours seems to
                              > me a very sensible idea. Once converted from sunlight to
                              > electricity, the energy is being utilized in a very quick way.
                              >
                              This is very true. Just to put things in perspective, I asked a
                              colleague who was in charge of the solar car at Cal Poly, SLO in the
                              early 90s about the power output of the array on the car. Here is his
                              response:

                              "Power from the Cal Poly solar car was about 700W. The most powerful
                              cars had arrays from 1200 to 1500W."

                              Keep in mind that the array in question was very large, by automotive
                              standards. If I remember correctly, it was somewhere over five square
                              meters. Perhaps a "normal" passenger car could find 1.5 square meters
                              of roof space/hood/trunk, which would make no more than 300W even with
                              significantly more efficient cells. Unquestionably, this would be
                              useful power. It could help power the accessories and might even
                              provide significant energy input into the batteries if the car was
                              parked for several hours.

                              But it would also require additional complexity on the vehicle in
                              question. If this were easy to do, I might go for it. But until I
                              had a solar array on my house/carport which is producing more
                              electrical energy each month than I am using, I think I would focus my
                              $$ and R&D efforts onto getting my house energy independent. Of
                              course, part of this energy would go to charging my BEV.

                              In any case, I think a small PV on a hydrid or a "regular" car makes
                              sense as a way to keep enough energy in the batteries to start the
                              vehicle.

                              > Then, there are even larger structures, such as the large trucks
                              > with flat roofs just sort of begging to be utilized. Maybe PV on a
                              > roof like that could help with the energy needed for refrigerating
                              > the truck, or could help improve the mileage for a trucker concerned
                              > about fuel costs?
                              >
                              Excellent point.

                              > We see these solar car races, and they are clearly valuable
                              > intellectual exercises that are not necessarily intended to lead to
                              > implementation of those exact vehicles. But why not incorporate
                              > just a smidgeon of that technology?
                              >
                              Good idea. See above.


                              Respectfully,

                              Forbes
                            • murdoch_1998
                              Here is a government site with seemingly up-to-date hybrid availability: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml It says consumer availability, but
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 3 9:37 AM
                                Here is a government site with seemingly up-to-date hybrid
                                availability:
                                http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml

                                It says "consumer" availability, but I bet we see an occassional one
                                that is available to fleets and not to consumers.

                                Another for discussion of recent hybrids:
                                http://eartheasy.com/live_hybrid_cars.htm

                                PNGV: Some pictures and data:
                                http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/favorites/fcvt_fotw
                                128.shtml

                                Just a cool EV site that also came up, Indiana EV-maker?
                                http://evi-usa.com/aboutus.htm
                              • murdoch_1998
                                ... focus my ... I don t really see this as either-or, or as wait-until-we-do-one- thing-until-we-do-the-other . For my money, both PV on home roofs and PV
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 6 9:55 PM
                                  > But it would also require additional complexity on the vehicle in
                                  > question. If this were easy to do, I might go for it. But until I
                                  > had a solar array on my house/carport which is producing more
                                  > electrical energy each month than I am using, I think I would
                                  focus my
                                  > $$ and R&D efforts onto getting my house energy independent. Of
                                  > course, part of this energy would go to charging my BEV.

                                  I don't really see this as either-or, or as "wait-until-we-do-one-
                                  thing-until-we-do-the-other". For my money, both PV on home roofs
                                  and PV on vehicle roofs (or pretty much anywhere else for that
                                  matter) is worth trying.

                                  With cars, an advantage you don't mention is that, despite the
                                  expense, a buyer of a PV-equipped vehicle has to go through none of
                                  this do-it-yourself procedure or learning process. He has bought
                                  the PV and the associated-electrical-hookups, and is generating and
                                  using the energy, right out the door.
                                • Lee Dekker
                                  Someone already said it. When PVs are cheap and work great, we should put them on everything. Why not. PVs currently make good sense on recreational vehicles.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 6 11:16 PM
                                    Someone already said it. When PVs are cheap and work great, we should put them on
                                    everything. Why not.

                                    PVs currently make good sense on recreational vehicles. The Earth Roamer uses PVs on its
                                    roof along with great batteries. Owners can leave the freezer stocked and running while
                                    the RV is parked. It�s great because the RV stays ready for the next excursion.

                                    http://www.earthroamer.com/main_truck/vehicle_2meangreen.html

                                    PVs are already good at keeping batteries charged on cars parked for long wiles.

                                    PVs could produce some real power by covering the large roof and awning surface areas of
                                    a Class-A RV. That RV would have enough PV to charge a BEV.

                                    --- murdoch_1998 <murdoch@...> wrote:

                                    > > But it would also require additional complexity on the vehicle in
                                    > > question. If this were easy to do, I might go for it. But until I
                                    > > had a solar array on my house/carport which is producing more
                                    > > electrical energy each month than I am using, I think I would
                                    > focus my
                                    > > $$ and R&D efforts onto getting my house energy independent. Of
                                    > > course, part of this energy would go to charging my BEV.
                                    >
                                    > I don't really see this as either-or, or as "wait-until-we-do-one-
                                    > thing-until-we-do-the-other". For my money, both PV on home roofs
                                    > and PV on vehicle roofs (or pretty much anywhere else for that
                                    > matter) is worth trying.
                                    >
                                    > With cars, an advantage you don't mention is that, despite the
                                    > expense, a buyer of a PV-equipped vehicle has to go through none of
                                    > this do-it-yourself procedure or learning process. He has bought
                                    > the PV and the associated-electrical-hookups, and is generating and
                                    > using the energy, right out the door.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >




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                                  • Eric Krofchak
                                    So, how do solar panels on an EV work. On the back bed of my EV pickup I have twelve 20watt solar panels. First off they are very easy to connect, I have 11
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Sep 16 5:15 PM
                                      So, how do solar panels on an EV work. On the back bed of my
                                      EV pickup I have twelve 20watt solar panels. First off
                                      they are very easy to connect, I have 11 panels connected
                                      in series producing around 1.3A @ 140vdc . These are connected directly
                                      connected to the trucks batterys. The power they produce
                                      is so minor when compared to the capacity of the batterys (244ah)
                                      that no charge controller is necessary. One 12v panel is connected
                                      to the trucks 12 battery to help keep it charged and take some
                                      load off the DC-DC converter.
                                      So how far does that get you. Well on a really good day
                                      I get around 3miles driving out of them. But on average
                                      I get more like 1.5 miles of driving a day out. But I will say this
                                      theres nothing like the feeling of stopping at a traffic light or
                                      coasting down the highway and watching the charge meter
                                      go positive on you.

                                      Any other questions?

                                      Eric



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                                      Way stinky cool! 1.5 miles may not seem like much, but I remember reading that the average American only commutes something like 8 miles each way per day, for
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Sep 16 5:22 PM
                                        Way stinky cool! 1.5 miles may not seem like much,
                                        but I remember reading that the average American only
                                        commutes something like 8 miles each way per day, for
                                        a total of 16 miles. 1.5 miles is almost 10% of that.
                                        Who would refuse an offer of 10% free energy for your
                                        daily commute? OK, OK, so it's not REALLY free. You
                                        need to pay for the PV system, but it is cool
                                        nonetheless!

                                        Thanks for the info.

                                        Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                                        Santa Clarita, CA (Where the desert sun beats down
                                        300+ days each year...)

                                        --- Eric Krofchak <EricKrofchak@...> wrote:

                                        > So, how do solar panels on an EV work. On the back
                                        > bed of my
                                        > EV pickup I have twelve 20watt solar panels. First
                                        > off
                                        > they are very easy to connect, I have 11 panels
                                        > connected
                                        > in series producing around 1.3A @ 140vdc . These
                                        > are connected directly
                                        > connected to the trucks batterys. The power they
                                        > produce
                                        > is so minor when compared to the capacity of the
                                        > batterys (244ah)
                                        > that no charge controller is necessary. One 12v
                                        > panel is connected
                                        > to the trucks 12 battery to help keep it charged and
                                        > take some
                                        > load off the DC-DC converter.
                                        > So how far does that get you. Well on a really good
                                        > day
                                        > I get around 3miles driving out of them. But on
                                        > average
                                        > I get more like 1.5 miles of driving a day out.
                                        > But I will say this
                                        > theres nothing like the feeling of stopping at a
                                        > traffic light or
                                        > coasting down the highway and watching the charge
                                        > meter
                                        > go positive on you.
                                        >
                                        > Any other questions?
                                        >
                                        > Eric
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        > removed]
                                        >
                                        >




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                                      • Eric Krofchak
                                        If your curious I posted a couple of photos of solar truck on the yahoo group page. Eric
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Sep 16 5:58 PM
                                          If your curious I posted a couple of photos of solar
                                          truck on the yahoo group page.

                                          Eric




                                          Forbes Bagatelle-Black wrote:

                                          > Way stinky cool! 1.5 miles may not seem like much,
                                          > but I remember reading that the average American only
                                          > commutes something like 8 miles each way per day, for
                                          > a total of 16 miles. 1.5 miles is almost 10% of that.
                                          > Who would refuse an offer of 10% free energy for your
                                          > daily commute? OK, OK, so it's not REALLY free. You
                                          > need to pay for the PV system, but it is cool
                                          > nonetheless!
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for the info.
                                          >
                                          > Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                                          > Santa Clarita, CA (Where the desert sun beats down
                                          > 300+ days each year...)
                                          >
                                          > --- Eric Krofchak <EricKrofchak@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > So, how do solar panels on an EV work. On the back
                                          > > bed of my
                                          > > EV pickup I have twelve 20watt solar panels. First
                                          > > off
                                          > > they are very easy to connect, I have 11 panels
                                          > > connected
                                          > > in series producing around 1.3A @ 140vdc . These
                                          > > are connected directly
                                          > > connected to the trucks batterys. The power they
                                          > > produce
                                          > > is so minor when compared to the capacity of the
                                          > > batterys (244ah)
                                          > > that no charge controller is necessary. One 12v
                                          > > panel is connected
                                          > > to the trucks 12 battery to help keep it charged and
                                          > > take some
                                          > > load off the DC-DC converter.
                                          > > So how far does that get you. Well on a really good
                                          > > day
                                          > > I get around 3miles driving out of them. But on
                                          > > average
                                          > > I get more like 1.5 miles of driving a day out.
                                          > > But I will say this
                                          > > theres nothing like the feeling of stopping at a
                                          > > traffic light or
                                          > > coasting down the highway and watching the charge
                                          > > meter
                                          > > go positive on you.
                                          > >
                                          > > Any other questions?
                                          > >
                                          > > Eric
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                          > > removed]
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • murdoch_1998
                                          Awesome. I like the way they fit in stylistically.... not the top priority, but an unexpected benefit. It s similar to what I was thinking for the larger
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Sep 16 10:45 PM
                                            Awesome. I like the way they fit in stylistically.... not the top
                                            priority, but an unexpected benefit.

                                            It's similar to what I was thinking for the larger trailer-trucks,
                                            where you have a very large flat surface completely covered by
                                            cells, trickling energy from the sun to the vehicle during the
                                            entire time it's in the sun.

                                            --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, Eric Krofchak <EricKrofchak@v...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > If your curious I posted a couple of photos of solar
                                            > truck on the yahoo group page.
                                            >
                                            > Eric
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Forbes Bagatelle-Black wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Way stinky cool! 1.5 miles may not seem like much,
                                            > > but I remember reading that the average American only
                                            > > commutes something like 8 miles each way per day, for
                                            > > a total of 16 miles. 1.5 miles is almost 10% of that.
                                            > > Who would refuse an offer of 10% free energy for your
                                            > > daily commute? OK, OK, so it's not REALLY free. You
                                            > > need to pay for the PV system, but it is cool
                                            > > nonetheless!
                                            > >
                                            > > Thanks for the info.
                                            > >
                                            > > Forbes Bagatelle-Black
                                            > > Santa Clarita, CA (Where the desert sun beats down
                                            > > 300+ days each year...)
                                            > >
                                            > > --- Eric Krofchak <EricKrofchak@v...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > So, how do solar panels on an EV work. On the back
                                            > > > bed of my
                                            > > > EV pickup I have twelve 20watt solar panels. First
                                            > > > off
                                            > > > they are very easy to connect, I have 11 panels
                                            > > > connected
                                            > > > in series producing around 1.3A @ 140vdc . These
                                            > > > are connected directly
                                            > > > connected to the trucks batterys. The power they
                                            > > > produce
                                            > > > is so minor when compared to the capacity of the
                                            > > > batterys (244ah)
                                            > > > that no charge controller is necessary. One 12v
                                            > > > panel is connected
                                            > > > to the trucks 12 battery to help keep it charged and
                                            > > > take some
                                            > > > load off the DC-DC converter.
                                            > > > So how far does that get you. Well on a really good
                                            > > > day
                                            > > > I get around 3miles driving out of them. But on
                                            > > > average
                                            > > > I get more like 1.5 miles of driving a day out.
                                            > > > But I will say this
                                            > > > theres nothing like the feeling of stopping at a
                                            > > > traffic light or
                                            > > > coasting down the highway and watching the charge
                                            > > > meter
                                            > > > go positive on you.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Any other questions?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Eric
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                            > > > removed]
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
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