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Re: I would like to mention a web site that tells you how to make your car run o

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  • mawrph@aol.com
    ... Since it is a closed system the farthest it could go is how long the battery will last to produce the H2. It would have to be a perpetual motion machine to
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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      In a message dated 12/7/03 4:29:37 AM, evworld@yahoogroups.com writes:


      > The energy comes form your auto battery. It is the
      > process of separating H2O into its gaseous from. It is
      > don't with pulsating DC at the correct frequency &
      > voltage to make it more efficient than most know
      > about. I think this fellows idea's are correct. jrem
      >


      Since it is a closed system the farthest it could go is how long the battery
      will last to produce the H2. It would have to be a perpetual motion machine to
      produce H2 from H2O, drive the car and recharge the battery to make more
      electricity and H2. No matter how efficient it is, it is not 100% efficient so it
      can not run forever without an outside source of power. The spark of a
      sparkplug releases far more energy from gasoline than it takes to create the spark.
      The electrolysis of the water does not release more energy than it takes to
      create the H2 since the input energy from the battery creates the H-H bond that
      contains the energy that gets released when it burns. You would have to start
      with H2 to come out ahead.

      Mark


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Wilson
      I have heard and read in College, that the Gasoline engine at its best is in the 30% range of efficiency. Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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        I have heard and read in College, that the Gasoline
        engine at its best is in the 30% range of efficiency.
        Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
        alternator that recharges the battery, that drives the
        fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
        air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
        CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a so
        called modern auto. And it manages to do all that at
        33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the efficiency of
        Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY TUNED, a
        friend and experimenter like my self are setting up an
        experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
        Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
        forms, to see if any of these variable's change the
        output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will post the
        results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all

        Keep thinking and never say never,till I have tried it
        myself, is my way of thinking,on new technology. If
        Nicola Tesla had succumbed to Edison's idea where
        would this world be today with only DC to operate
        with. Not to say that someone else wouldn't have did
        it sometime later.

        FYI Just for information's sake.
        Ferdinand Porsche's first auto design was an Electric
        auto that had hub motors (that weighed 500lbs each) in
        the front wheels, ran on 80volts, but would only go
        50miles till it needed to be recharged. He was
        disappointed in that fact, and the next year had the
        car fitted with a gasoline engine that drove a
        generator, with hub motors in all four wheels. He won
        the yearly race, FAR ahead of all the other cars in
        the race. He was working for an auto company in
        Austria. He was hired away from that company by
        another that year. The company that made the Hybrid
        sold them for several years after that. I just read
        this in a book in our public library this week.





        --- mawrph@... wrote:
        >
        > In a message dated 12/7/03 4:29:37 AM,
        > evworld@yahoogroups.com writes:
        >
        >
        > > The energy comes form your auto battery. It is the
        > > process of separating H2O into its gaseous from.
        > It is
        > > don't with pulsating DC at the correct frequency &
        > > voltage to make it more efficient than most know
        > > about. I think this fellows idea's are correct.
        > jrem
        > >
        >
        >
        > Since it is a closed system the farthest it could go
        > is how long the battery
        > will last to produce the H2. It would have to be a
        > perpetual motion machine to
        > produce H2 from H2O, drive the car and recharge the
        > battery to make more
        > electricity and H2. No matter how efficient it is,
        > it is not 100% efficient so it
        > can not run forever without an outside source of
        > power. The spark of a
        > sparkplug releases far more energy from gasoline
        > than it takes to create the spark.
        > The electrolysis of the water does not release more
        > energy than it takes to
        > create the H2 since the input energy from the
        > battery creates the H-H bond that
        > contains the energy that gets released when it
        > burns. You would have to start
        > with H2 to come out ahead.
        >
        > Mark
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >


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      • Johann Joseph
        Interesting...what is the title of the book?
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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          Interesting...what is the title of the book?

          > FYI Just for information's sake.
          > Ferdinand Porsche's first auto design was an Electric
          > auto that had hub motors (that weighed 500lbs each) in
          > the front wheels, ran on 80volts, but would only go
          > 50miles till it needed to be recharged. He was
          > disappointed in that fact, and the next year had the
          > car fitted with a gasoline engine that drove a
          > generator, with hub motors in all four wheels. He won
          > the yearly race, FAR ahead of all the other cars in
          > the race. He was working for an auto company in
          > Austria. He was hired away from that company by
          > another that year. The company that made the Hybrid
          > sold them for several years after that. I just read
          > this in a book in our public library this week.
        • ntsl532
          I am curious where you obtained the the 30% efficiency rating for ICE vehicles. All the figures I have been quoted were 14-15% with only a few close to 20%.
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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            I am curious where you obtained the the 30% efficiency rating for ICE
            vehicles. All the figures I have been quoted were 14-15% with only a
            few close to 20%.


            --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, James Wilson <jrem2@y...> wrote:
            > I have heard and read in College, that the Gasoline
            > engine at its best is in the 30% range of efficiency.
            > Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
            > alternator that recharges the battery, that drives the
            > fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
            > air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
            > CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a so
            > called modern auto. And it manages to do all that at
            > 33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the efficiency of
            > Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY TUNED, a
            > friend and experimenter like my self are setting up an
            > experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
            > Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
            > forms, to see if any of these variable's change the
            > output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will post the
            > results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all
            >
            > Keep thinking and never say never,till I have tried it
            > myself, is my way of thinking,on new technology. If
            > Nicola Tesla had succumbed to Edison's idea where
            > would this world be today with only DC to operate
            > with. Not to say that someone else wouldn't have did
            > it sometime later.
            >
            > FYI Just for information's sake.
            > Ferdinand Porsche's first auto design was an Electric
            > auto that had hub motors (that weighed 500lbs each) in
            > the front wheels, ran on 80volts, but would only go
            > 50miles till it needed to be recharged. He was
            > disappointed in that fact, and the next year had the
            > car fitted with a gasoline engine that drove a
            > generator, with hub motors in all four wheels. He won
            > the yearly race, FAR ahead of all the other cars in
            > the race. He was working for an auto company in
            > Austria. He was hired away from that company by
            > another that year. The company that made the Hybrid
            > sold them for several years after that. I just read
            > this in a book in our public library this week.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- mawrph@a... wrote:
            > >
            > > In a message dated 12/7/03 4:29:37 AM,
            > > evworld@yahoogroups.com writes:
            > >
            > >
            > > > The energy comes form your auto battery. It is the
            > > > process of separating H2O into its gaseous from.
            > > It is
            > > > don't with pulsating DC at the correct frequency &
            > > > voltage to make it more efficient than most know
            > > > about. I think this fellows idea's are correct.
            > > jrem
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Since it is a closed system the farthest it could go
            > > is how long the battery
            > > will last to produce the H2. It would have to be a
            > > perpetual motion machine to
            > > produce H2 from H2O, drive the car and recharge the
            > > battery to make more
            > > electricity and H2. No matter how efficient it is,
            > > it is not 100% efficient so it
            > > can not run forever without an outside source of
            > > power. The spark of a
            > > sparkplug releases far more energy from gasoline
            > > than it takes to create the spark.
            > > The electrolysis of the water does not release more
            > > energy than it takes to
            > > create the H2 since the input energy from the
            > > battery creates the H-H bond that
            > > contains the energy that gets released when it
            > > burns. You would have to start
            > > with H2 to come out ahead.
            > >
            > > Mark
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > > removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
            > http://photos.yahoo.com/
          • James Wilson
            I will look it up next time I m in the Library,and let you know! ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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              I will look it up next time I'm in the Library,and let
              you know!

              --- Johann Joseph <goyogi@...> wrote:
              > Interesting...what is the title of the book?
              >
              > > FYI Just for information's sake.
              > > Ferdinand Porsche's first auto design was an
              > Electric
              > > auto that had hub motors (that weighed 500lbs
              > each) in
              > > the front wheels, ran on 80volts, but would only
              > go
              > > 50miles till it needed to be recharged. He was
              > > disappointed in that fact, and the next year had
              > the
              > > car fitted with a gasoline engine that drove a
              > > generator, with hub motors in all four wheels. He
              > won
              > > the yearly race, FAR ahead of all the other cars
              > in
              > > the race. He was working for an auto company in
              > > Austria. He was hired away from that company by
              > > another that year. The company that made the
              > Hybrid
              > > sold them for several years after that. I just
              > read
              > > this in a book in our public library this week.
              >
              >
              >


              __________________________________
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              New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
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            • James Wilson
              My brother-in-law went to college to be an auto engineer,one of his teachers had a book that stated that as the best achievement on record.(at the time) It was
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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                My brother-in-law went to college to be an auto
                engineer,one of his teachers had a book that stated
                that as the best achievement on record.(at the time)
                It was back in 1964-65,auto repair class, Northeastern
                A&M in Miami, Oklahoma.

                --- ntsl532 <ntsl532@...> wrote:
                > I am curious where you obtained the the 30%
                > efficiency rating for ICE
                > vehicles. All the figures I have been quoted were
                > 14-15% with only a
                > few close to 20%.
                >
                >
                > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, James Wilson
                > <jrem2@y...> wrote:
                > > I have heard and read in College, that the
                > Gasoline
                > > engine at its best is in the 30% range of
                > efficiency.
                > > Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
                > > alternator that recharges the battery, that drives
                > the
                > > fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
                > > air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
                > > CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a
                > so
                > > called modern auto. And it manages to do all that
                > at
                > > 33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the
                > efficiency of
                > > Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY
                > TUNED, a
                > > friend and experimenter like my self are setting
                > up an
                > > experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
                > > Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
                > > forms, to see if any of these variable's change
                > the
                > > output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will post
                > the
                > > results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all
                > >
                > > Keep thinking and never say never,till I have
                > tried it
                > > myself, is my way of thinking,on new technology.
                > If
                > > Nicola Tesla had succumbed to Edison's idea where
                > > would this world be today with only DC to operate
                > > with. Not to say that someone else wouldn't have
                > did
                > > it sometime later.
                > >
                > > FYI Just for information's sake.
                > > Ferdinand Porsche's first auto design was an
                > Electric
                > > auto that had hub motors (that weighed 500lbs
                > each) in
                > > the front wheels, ran on 80volts, but would only
                > go
                > > 50miles till it needed to be recharged. He was
                > > disappointed in that fact, and the next year had
                > the
                > > car fitted with a gasoline engine that drove a
                > > generator, with hub motors in all four wheels. He
                > won
                > > the yearly race, FAR ahead of all the other cars
                > in
                > > the race. He was working for an auto company in
                > > Austria. He was hired away from that company by
                > > another that year. The company that made the
                > Hybrid
                > > sold them for several years after that. I just
                > read
                > > this in a book in our public library this week.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- mawrph@a... wrote:
                > > >
                > > > In a message dated 12/7/03 4:29:37 AM,
                > > > evworld@yahoogroups.com writes:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > > The energy comes form your auto battery. It is
                > the
                > > > > process of separating H2O into its gaseous
                > from.
                > > > It is
                > > > > don't with pulsating DC at the correct
                > frequency &
                > > > > voltage to make it more efficient than most
                > know
                > > > > about. I think this fellows idea's are
                > correct.
                > > > jrem
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Since it is a closed system the farthest it
                > could go
                > > > is how long the battery
                > > > will last to produce the H2. It would have to be
                > a
                > > > perpetual motion machine to
                > > > produce H2 from H2O, drive the car and recharge
                > the
                > > > battery to make more
                > > > electricity and H2. No matter how efficient it
                > is,
                > > > it is not 100% efficient so it
                > > > can not run forever without an outside source of
                > > > power. The spark of a
                > > > sparkplug releases far more energy from gasoline
                > > > than it takes to create the spark.
                > > > The electrolysis of the water does not release
                > more
                > > > energy than it takes to
                > > > create the H2 since the input energy from the
                > > > battery creates the H-H bond that
                > > > contains the energy that gets released when it
                > > > burns. You would have to start
                > > > with H2 to come out ahead.
                > > >
                > > > Mark
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > > > removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > __________________________________
                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                > > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
                > > http://photos.yahoo.com/
                >
                >


                __________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
                http://photos.yahoo.com/
              • Hakan Falk
                Generally you talk about gasoline cars as 30% to the wheel and diesel 35% to the wheel. When it comes to fuel cells, the numbers I have seen is 30% for small
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
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                  Generally you talk about gasoline cars as 30% to the wheel and diesel 35%
                  to the wheel. When it comes to fuel cells, the numbers I have seen is 30%
                  for small fuel cell and 50% for large. With large, it is referred as
                  industrial and stationary. In small fuel cells are normally included the
                  ones suggested to be used for transportation. Fuel cells can theoretically
                  be improved up to 66% efficiency, but it is not very much more you can do
                  with combustion engines. Hydrogen and fuel cells have been subject to
                  development around 100 years, for hydrogen can be claimed that it is 150
                  years. This depending how you look at history. The Germans did a lot on
                  hydrogen and fuel cells in the 1930's. Still it is not a "ready for use"
                  technology and should not be announced as that. It is promising and several
                  larger steps have been taken during the last decade, but in my meaning it
                  is too early to bet on Hydrogen and Fuel Cells as the immediate major
                  solution for the urgent energy problems. To judge this, you only have to
                  look at normal cycles for ready product to common use and the fossil
                  depletion situation. Logic tells me that we have to combine many
                  techniques, only because some of them are ready to use. Hydrogen in itself
                  is not an energy source and we must also know where we are going to get the
                  energy from, to make hydrogen. Electrical and hybrid cars make a lot of
                  sense, because they works well for a flexible energy future. Power pack for
                  hybrids is in my meaning of special interest, since they can double for
                  many of our current energy uses. A small hybrid car could equally well work
                  as grid connected power generation and with cooling/heat pumps for
                  dwellings, when it is not used for transport.

                  Hakan


                  At 15:24 08/12/2003, you wrote:
                  >On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:55:59 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
                  >
                  > > I have heard and read in College, that the Gasoline
                  > >engine at its best is in the 30% range of efficiency.
                  > >Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
                  > >alternator that recharges the battery, that drives the
                  > >fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
                  > >air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
                  > >CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a so
                  > >called modern auto. And it manages to do all that at
                  > >33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the efficiency of
                  > >Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY TUNED, a
                  > >friend and experimenter like my self are setting up an
                  > >experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
                  > >Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
                  > >forms, to see if any of these variable's change the
                  > >output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will post the
                  > >results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all
                  >
                  >That is all fine, and we will look forward to the results of your test, but in
                  >my view Mark is correct and has bent over backward to over-state the matter.
                  >
                  >It's obvious: if your primary source of energy is a single conventional car
                  >battery worth of energy, you're not going very far with decent performance.
                  >Period. You can convert to as much H2 as you want, but it won't change a
                  >thing.
                  >
                  >To answer your question:
                  >
                  >In a fuel cell, the energy efficiency of converting H2 to water has been
                  >roughly
                  >50%, though one can get somewhat higher depending on cogen and other factors.
                  >
                  >If you are running H2 through an internal combustion engine, your efficiency
                  >will still be in the same league as gasoline. The limiting factor is not the
                  >fuel but the engine. It is limited inherently by Carnot Cycle inefficiencies.
                  >Those inherent inefficiencies are a primary reason everyone is talking about
                  >switching to fuel cells.
                • murdoch
                  ... That is all fine, and we will look forward to the results of your test, but in my view Mark is correct and has bent over backward to over-state the matter.
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
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                    On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:55:59 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

                    > I have heard and read in College, that the Gasoline
                    >engine at its best is in the 30% range of efficiency.
                    >Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
                    >alternator that recharges the battery, that drives the
                    >fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
                    >air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
                    >CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a so
                    >called modern auto. And it manages to do all that at
                    >33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the efficiency of
                    >Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY TUNED, a
                    >friend and experimenter like my self are setting up an
                    >experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
                    >Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
                    >forms, to see if any of these variable's change the
                    >output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will post the
                    >results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all

                    That is all fine, and we will look forward to the results of your test, but in
                    my view Mark is correct and has bent over backward to over-state the matter.

                    It's obvious: if your primary source of energy is a single conventional car
                    battery worth of energy, you're not going very far with decent performance.
                    Period. You can convert to as much H2 as you want, but it won't change a thing.

                    To answer your question:

                    In a fuel cell, the energy efficiency of converting H2 to water has been roughly
                    50%, though one can get somewhat higher depending on cogen and other factors.

                    If you are running H2 through an internal combustion engine, your efficiency
                    will still be in the same league as gasoline. The limiting factor is not the
                    fuel but the engine. It is limited inherently by Carnot Cycle inefficiencies.
                    Those inherent inefficiencies are a primary reason everyone is talking about
                    switching to fuel cells.
                  • murdoch
                    ... I think the numbers that you re using for present-day prototype small PEM fuel cell efficiencies are too low. I think they re more in the 45-50% range.
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
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                      On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:22:37 +0100, you wrote:

                      >
                      >Generally you talk about gasoline cars as 30% to the wheel and diesel 35%
                      >to the wheel. When it comes to fuel cells, the numbers I have seen is 30%
                      >for small fuel cell and 50% for large. With large, it is referred as
                      >industrial and stationary. In small fuel cells are normally included the
                      >ones suggested to be used for transportation.

                      I think the numbers that you're using for present-day prototype small PEM fuel
                      cell efficiencies are too low. I think they're more in the 45-50% range. This
                      is not based though on a large amount of research on my end.

                      I am not arguing with your other points (they're expensive, not ready-for-use
                      etc.)

                      >Fuel cells can theoretically
                      >be improved up to 66% efficiency,

                      Is this number is an approximation or is it dictated specifically by physics?
                      I've seen higher numbers for some larger fuel cells, though I think
                      co-generation was being taken into account. As to co-generation, I wonder why
                      it isn't tried with ICE engines, and if it is, what the efficiency numbers are.

                      but it is not very much more you can do
                      >with combustion engines. Hydrogen and fuel cells have been subject to
                      >development around 100 years, for hydrogen can be claimed that it is 150
                      >years. This depending how you look at history. The Germans did a lot on
                      >hydrogen and fuel cells in the 1930's. Still it is not a "ready for use"
                      >technology and should not be announced as that.

                      I tried to research this at a recent conference that Bill Moore and I attended.
                      On the last day I was there, I went deliberately to several of the fuel cell
                      manufacturers' booths to ask them some questions, but I can't say that I
                      developed answers that satisfied me. I rode in several of the fuel cell
                      vehicles, and it was a great ride... no problems at all, except one of the cars
                      was slightly loud from the compressor. Otherwise they were fantastic. But as
                      to reducing cost and so forth, and addressing all the other questions, I'm not
                      sure when-if they'll be at my car dealer, ready for me to buy, with a fuel
                      station nearby, ready for me to buy, or an at home pump, ready for me to buy.

                      MM
                    • ntsl532
                      ... test, but in ... the matter. ... conventional car ... performance. ... change a thing. ... been roughly ... other factors. ... efficiency ... is not the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
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                        --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                        > On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:55:59 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
                        >
                        > > I have heard and read in College, that the Gasoline
                        > >engine at its best is in the 30% range of efficiency.
                        > >Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
                        > >alternator that recharges the battery, that drives the
                        > >fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
                        > >air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
                        > >CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a so
                        > >called modern auto. And it manages to do all that at
                        > >33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the efficiency of
                        > >Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY TUNED, a
                        > >friend and experimenter like my self are setting up an
                        > >experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
                        > >Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
                        > >forms, to see if any of these variable's change the
                        > >output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will post the
                        > >results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all
                        >
                        > That is all fine, and we will look forward to the results of your
                        test, but in
                        > my view Mark is correct and has bent over backward to over-state
                        the matter.
                        >
                        > It's obvious: if your primary source of energy is a single
                        conventional car
                        > battery worth of energy, you're not going very far with decent
                        performance.
                        > Period. You can convert to as much H2 as you want, but it won't
                        change a thing.
                        >
                        > To answer your question:
                        >
                        > In a fuel cell, the energy efficiency of converting H2 to water has
                        been roughly
                        > 50%, though one can get somewhat higher depending on cogen and
                        other factors.
                        >
                        > If you are running H2 through an internal combustion engine, your
                        efficiency
                        > will still be in the same league as gasoline. The limiting factor
                        is not the
                        > fuel but the engine. It is limited inherently by Carnot Cycle
                        inefficiencies.
                        > Those inherent inefficiencies are a primary reason everyone is
                        talking about
                        > switching to fuel cells.

                        I had thought I had seen the 50% efficiency figure for H2 conversion
                        in a recent AC Propulsion paper by Tom Gage. I don't see any real
                        storage advantage especially since many batteries are 80-90%
                        efficient. Doing onboard electrolysis sounds complex and subject to
                        problems. From my standpoint staying with just batteries, and
                        electric motor, and a controller is the most practical solution to
                        the energy requirements of the e-car.
                      • James Wilson
                        I personally think that the Hydrogen fuel-cell is the most inefficient thing I can think of. The only way it can help the environment,is to make all the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I personally think that the Hydrogen fuel-cell is the
                          most inefficient thing I can think of. The only way it
                          can help the environment,is to make all the Hydrogen
                          with Wind,Hydro-dam's,or Solar. EV's make the most
                          sense,to me,thats why I converted a Suzuki Swift to
                          Electric. Most if not all of city driving could be
                          done with an EV,doing more for clean air than any
                          thing I know of,& at an affordable price to most
                          working people. For unlimited mileage,i'll have to
                          agree with J.Leno,when he said what we need is small
                          turbo diesel engined autos, to stretch what fuel we
                          have left,till something better is figured out. I sure
                          hate to see the big three given another $1.5billion to
                          perfect an auto that already exist. Honda,Toyota,and
                          others already are running "fuel cell" auto's,& they
                          didn't get a handout of taxpayers money to do it with.





                          --- Hakan Falk <hakan@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Generally you talk about gasoline cars as 30% to the
                          > wheel and diesel 35%
                          > to the wheel. When it comes to fuel cells, the
                          > numbers I have seen is 30%
                          > for small fuel cell and 50% for large. With large,
                          > it is referred as
                          > industrial and stationary. In small fuel cells are
                          > normally included the
                          > ones suggested to be used for transportation. Fuel
                          > cells can theoretically
                          > be improved up to 66% efficiency, but it is not very
                          > much more you can do
                          > with combustion engines. Hydrogen and fuel cells
                          > have been subject to
                          > development around 100 years, for hydrogen can be
                          > claimed that it is 150
                          > years. This depending how you look at history. The
                          > Germans did a lot on
                          > hydrogen and fuel cells in the 1930's. Still it is
                          > not a "ready for use"
                          > technology and should not be announced as that. It
                          > is promising and several
                          > larger steps have been taken during the last decade,
                          > but in my meaning it
                          > is too early to bet on Hydrogen and Fuel Cells as
                          > the immediate major
                          > solution for the urgent energy problems. To judge
                          > this, you only have to
                          > look at normal cycles for ready product to common
                          > use and the fossil
                          > depletion situation. Logic tells me that we have to
                          > combine many
                          > techniques, only because some of them are ready to
                          > use. Hydrogen in itself
                          > is not an energy source and we must also know where
                          > we are going to get the
                          > energy from, to make hydrogen. Electrical and hybrid
                          > cars make a lot of
                          > sense, because they works well for a flexible energy
                          > future. Power pack for
                          > hybrids is in my meaning of special interest, since
                          > they can double for
                          > many of our current energy uses. A small hybrid car
                          > could equally well work
                          > as grid connected power generation and with
                          > cooling/heat pumps for
                          > dwellings, when it is not used for transport.
                          >
                          > Hakan
                          >
                          >
                          > At 15:24 08/12/2003, you wrote:
                          > >On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:55:59 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > I have heard and read in College, that the
                          > Gasoline
                          > > >engine at its best is in the 30% range of
                          > efficiency.
                          > > >Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls
                          > the
                          > > >alternator that recharges the battery, that
                          > drives the
                          > > >fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
                          > > >air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
                          > > >CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a
                          > so
                          > > >called modern auto. And it manages to do all that
                          > at
                          > > >33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the
                          > efficiency of
                          > > >Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY
                          > TUNED, a
                          > > >friend and experimenter like my self are setting
                          > up an
                          > > >experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
                          > > >Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
                          > > >forms, to see if any of these variable's change
                          > the
                          > > >output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will
                          > post the
                          > > >results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all
                          > >
                          > >That is all fine, and we will look forward to the
                          > results of your test, but in
                          > >my view Mark is correct and has bent over backward
                          > to over-state the matter.
                          > >
                          > >It's obvious: if your primary source of energy is a
                          > single conventional car
                          > >battery worth of energy, you're not going very far
                          > with decent performance.
                          > >Period. You can convert to as much H2 as you want,
                          > but it won't change a
                          > >thing.
                          > >
                          > >To answer your question:
                          > >
                          > >In a fuel cell, the energy efficiency of converting
                          > H2 to water has been
                          > >roughly
                          > >50%, though one can get somewhat higher depending
                          > on cogen and other factors.
                          > >
                          > >If you are running H2 through an internal
                          > combustion engine, your efficiency
                          > >will still be in the same league as gasoline. The
                          > limiting factor is not the
                          > >fuel but the engine. It is limited inherently by
                          > Carnot Cycle inefficiencies.
                          > >Those inherent inefficiencies are a primary reason
                          > everyone is talking about
                          > >switching to fuel cells.
                          >
                          >
                          >


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                        • James Wilson
                          I personally think that the Hydrogen fuel-cell is the most inefficient thing I can think of. The only way it can help the environment,is to make all the
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
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                            I personally think that the Hydrogen fuel-cell is the
                            most inefficient thing I can think of. The only way it
                            can help the environment,is to make all the Hydrogen
                            with Wind,Hydro-dam's,or Solar. EV's make the most
                            sense,to me,thats why I converted a Suzuki Swift to
                            Electric. Most if not all of city driving could be
                            done with an EV,doing more for clean air than any
                            thing I know of,& at an affordable price to most
                            working people. For unlimited mileage,i'll have to
                            agree with J.Leno,when he said what we need is small
                            turbo diesel engined autos, to stretch what fuel we
                            have left,till something better is figured out. I sure
                            hate to see the big three given another $1.5billion to
                            perfect an auto that already exist. Honda,Toyota,and
                            others already are running "fuel cell" auto's,& they
                            didn't get a handout of taxpayers money to do it with.
                            The one single thing is that the big three dont care
                            about the environment,just thier pocketbooks. If I
                            were wrong, they would put thier Hybrids on the market
                            for sale.Each of them have a Hybrid that gets 72 to
                            80mpg,5passenger auto,small Turbo-diesel as the fuel
                            burning helper. All that info is available on the web
                            for the world to know about. Cheers




                            --- Hakan Falk <hakan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Generally you talk about gasoline cars as 30% to the
                            > wheel and diesel 35%
                            > to the wheel. When it comes to fuel cells, the
                            > numbers I have seen is 30%
                            > for small fuel cell and 50% for large. With large,
                            > it is referred as
                            > industrial and stationary. In small fuel cells are
                            > normally included the
                            > ones suggested to be used for transportation. Fuel
                            > cells can theoretically
                            > be improved up to 66% efficiency, but it is not very
                            > much more you can do
                            > with combustion engines. Hydrogen and fuel cells
                            > have been subject to
                            > development around 100 years, for hydrogen can be
                            > claimed that it is 150
                            > years. This depending how you look at history. The
                            > Germans did a lot on
                            > hydrogen and fuel cells in the 1930's. Still it is
                            > not a "ready for use"
                            > technology and should not be announced as that. It
                            > is promising and several
                            > larger steps have been taken during the last decade,
                            > but in my meaning it
                            > is too early to bet on Hydrogen and Fuel Cells as
                            > the immediate major
                            > solution for the urgent energy problems. To judge
                            > this, you only have to
                            > look at normal cycles for ready product to common
                            > use and the fossil
                            > depletion situation. Logic tells me that we have to
                            > combine many
                            > techniques, only because some of them are ready to
                            > use. Hydrogen in itself
                            > is not an energy source and we must also know where
                            > we are going to get the
                            > energy from, to make hydrogen. Electrical and hybrid
                            > cars make a lot of
                            > sense, because they works well for a flexible energy
                            > future. Power pack for
                            > hybrids is in my meaning of special interest, since
                            > they can double for
                            > many of our current energy uses. A small hybrid car
                            > could equally well work
                            > as grid connected power generation and with
                            > cooling/heat pumps for
                            > dwellings, when it is not used for transport.
                            >
                            > Hakan
                            >
                            >
                            > At 15:24 08/12/2003, you wrote:
                            > >On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:55:59 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > I have heard and read in College, that the
                            > Gasoline
                            > > >engine at its best is in the 30% range of
                            > efficiency.
                            > > >Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls
                            > the
                            > > >alternator that recharges the battery, that
                            > drives the
                            > > >fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
                            > > >air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
                            > > >CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a
                            > so
                            > > >called modern auto. And it manages to do all that
                            > at
                            > > >33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the
                            > efficiency of
                            > > >Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY
                            > TUNED, a
                            > > >friend and experimenter like my self are setting
                            > up an
                            > > >experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
                            > > >Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
                            > > >forms, to see if any of these variable's change
                            > the
                            > > >output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will
                            > post the
                            > > >results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all
                            > >
                            > >That is all fine, and we will look forward to the
                            > results of your test, but in
                            > >my view Mark is correct and has bent over backward
                            > to over-state the matter.
                            > >
                            > >It's obvious: if your primary source of energy is a
                            > single conventional car
                            > >battery worth of energy, you're not going very far
                            > with decent performance.
                            > >Period. You can convert to as much H2 as you want,
                            > but it won't change a
                            > >thing.
                            > >
                            > >To answer your question:
                            > >
                            > >In a fuel cell, the energy efficiency of converting
                            > H2 to water has been
                            > >roughly
                            > >50%, though one can get somewhat higher depending
                            > on cogen and other factors.
                            > >
                            > >If you are running H2 through an internal
                            > combustion engine, your efficiency
                            > >will still be in the same league as gasoline. The
                            > limiting factor is not the
                            > >fuel but the engine. It is limited inherently by
                            > Carnot Cycle inefficiencies.
                            > >Those inherent inefficiencies are a primary reason
                            > everyone is talking about
                            > >switching to fuel cells.
                            >
                            >
                            >


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                          • James Wilson
                            ... Thanks, sure makes sence to me. I see what you mean by efficency of an engine design,no matter what fuel it burns. IC is still IC,and has the same
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
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                              --- murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
                              > On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:55:59 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
                              >
                              > > I have heard and read in College, that the
                              > Gasoline
                              > >engine at its best is in the 30% range of
                              > efficiency.
                              > >Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
                              > >alternator that recharges the battery, that drives
                              > the
                              > >fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
                              > >air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
                              > >CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a
                              > so
                              > >called modern auto. And it manages to do all that
                              > at
                              > >33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the efficiency
                              > of
                              > >Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY TUNED,
                              > a
                              > >friend and experimenter like my self are setting up
                              > an
                              > >experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
                              > >Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
                              > >forms, to see if any of these variable's change the
                              > >output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will post
                              > the
                              > >results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all
                              >
                              > That is all fine, and we will look forward to the
                              > results of your test, but in
                              > my view Mark is correct and has bent over backward
                              > to over-state the matter.
                              >
                              > It's obvious: if your primary source of energy is a
                              > single conventional car
                              > battery worth of energy, you're not going very far
                              > with decent performance.
                              > Period. You can convert to as much H2 as you want,
                              > but it won't change a thing.
                              >
                              > To answer your question:
                              >
                              > In a fuel cell, the energy efficiency of converting
                              > H2 to water has been roughly
                              > 50%, though one can get somewhat higher depending on
                              > cogen and other factors.
                              >
                              > If you are running H2 through an internal combustion
                              > engine, your efficiency
                              > will still be in the same league as gasoline. The
                              > limiting factor is not the
                              > fuel but the engine. It is limited inherently by
                              > Carnot Cycle inefficiencies.
                              > Those inherent inefficiencies are a primary reason
                              > everyone is talking about
                              > switching to fuel cells.
                              >
                              Thanks, sure makes sence to me. I see what you mean
                              by efficency of an engine design,no matter what fuel
                              it burns. IC is still IC,and has the same handicap's
                              it has always had. I will agree with you 99&44/100%
                              J.R.


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                            • Felix Kramer
                              It would help all of us if people would change the subject line from time to time as discussions evolve. It took me quite a while after I was ignoring the
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                It would help all of us if people would change the subject line from time
                                to time as discussions evolve.

                                It took me quite a while after I was ignoring the "perpetual motion"
                                machine ideas in the original thread of:
                                "I would like to mention a web site that tells you how to make your car run..."

                                to realize that the subject had changed to well-to-wheel efficiency, fuel
                                cells, etc.

                                It would also help if you could trim out parts of the previous messages
                                (especially if you're simply making a comment about one particular aspect
                                of a long post).

                                Thanks, Felix
                                -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
                                Felix Kramer fkramer@...
                                Founder California Cars Initiative
                                http://www.calcars.org
                                -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
                              • James Wilson
                                ... lead acid at a reasonable cost,tho. ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                  >
                                  > I had thought I had seen the 50% efficiency figure
                                  > for H2 conversion
                                  > in a recent AC Propulsion paper by Tom Gage. I
                                  > don't see any real
                                  > storage advantage especially since many batteries
                                  > are 80-90%
                                  > efficient. Doing onboard electrolysis sounds
                                  > complex and subject to
                                  > problems. From my standpoint staying with just
                                  > batteries, and
                                  > electric motor, and a controller is the most
                                  > practical solution to
                                  > the energy requirements of the e-car.
                                  >
                                  > I agree. Sure would like to buy better batterys than
                                  lead acid at a reasonable cost,tho.
                                  >
                                  >


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                                • Hakan Falk
                                  Without getting into the big philosophical definitions of energy and only keeping to a narrow use, the following can be said about electricity production and
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                    Without getting into the big philosophical definitions of energy and only
                                    keeping to a narrow use, the following can be said about electricity
                                    production and storage,

                                    You make electricity and if it is NG or oil production plants, the
                                    efficiency is 50% for large and 35% for small generation. If we look at
                                    nuclear, we cannot talk about efficiency in a simple way, the monetary,
                                    security and social cost of the whole cycle is the determining factor.
                                    Hydroelectric and other renewable like solar, wind and biofuels, are from
                                    8% to 80% conversion efficient.

                                    Once you have electricity, you either use it at production or find a way to
                                    store it for future use. The major storage technologies is.

                                    Pumping of water to storage dams for on demand hydroelectric production and
                                    you reuse efficiency around 60-70%.

                                    Batteries with reuse efficiency between 80-90%

                                    Hydrogen production have around 90% efficiency, for reproduction of
                                    electricity you can use fuel cells or Gas plant with efficiency of 35 to
                                    50%. This give you storage efficiency between 30 to 45%, You can also use
                                    the Hydrogen directly in combustion, so it is also a reformation of energy
                                    and in this case the efficiency can be higher. The properties of Hydrogen
                                    causes very high explosion risks and costly storage, which is worth noticing.

                                    At the moment, it seems difficult to come up with better efficiency than
                                    battery technology. It then become more a question of cost efficiency,
                                    which moves some of the different solutions alternatives closer to each
                                    other.

                                    Hakan




                                    At 06:01 09/12/2003, you wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I had thought I had seen the 50% efficiency figure
                                    > > for H2 conversion
                                    > > in a recent AC Propulsion paper by Tom Gage. I
                                    > > don't see any real
                                    > > storage advantage especially since many batteries
                                    > > are 80-90%
                                    > > efficient. Doing onboard electrolysis sounds
                                    > > complex and subject to
                                    > > problems. From my standpoint staying with just
                                    > > batteries, and
                                    > > electric motor, and a controller is the most
                                    > > practical solution to
                                    > > the energy requirements of the e-car.
                                    > >
                                    > > I agree. Sure would like to buy better batterys than
                                    >lead acid at a reasonable cost,tho.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                  • sci_plus
                                    Like i said before, this stuff (2H2 + O2) is 6 times as powerfull as smelly gasoline. the energy releced by burning is FAR more than is needed to make this
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                      Like i said before, this stuff (2H2 + O2) is 6 times as powerfull as
                                      smelly gasoline. the energy releced by burning is FAR more than is
                                      needed to make this gas. note that the gas is NOT being used to make
                                      electricity, but it is being exploded instead.

                                      --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, mawrph@a... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > In a message dated 12/7/03 4:29:37 AM, evworld@yahoogroups.com
                                      writes:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > The energy comes form your auto battery. It is the
                                      > > process of separating H2O into its gaseous from. It is
                                      > > don't with pulsating DC at the correct frequency &
                                      > > voltage to make it more efficient than most know
                                      > > about. I think this fellows idea's are correct. jrem
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Since it is a closed system the farthest it could go is how long
                                      the battery
                                      > will last to produce the H2. It would have to be a perpetual
                                      motion machine to
                                      > produce H2 from H2O, drive the car and recharge the battery to
                                      make more
                                      > electricity and H2. No matter how efficient it is, it is not 100%
                                      efficient so it
                                      > can not run forever without an outside source of power. The spark
                                      of a
                                      > sparkplug releases far more energy from gasoline than it takes to
                                      create the spark.
                                      > The electrolysis of the water does not release more energy than it
                                      takes to
                                      > create the H2 since the input energy from the battery creates the
                                      H-H bond that
                                      > contains the energy that gets released when it burns. You would
                                      have to start
                                      > with H2 to come out ahead.
                                      >
                                      > Mark
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • sci_plus
                                      ... test, but in ... the matter. ... conventional car ... performance. ... change a thing. ... has been roughly ... other factors. ... efficiency ... is not
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                        --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                                        > On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:55:59 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I have heard and read in College, that the Gasoline
                                        > >engine at its best is in the 30% range of efficiency.
                                        > >Yet with that degree of inefficiency, it pulls the
                                        > >alternator that recharges the battery, that drives the
                                        > >fuelpump, electronic ignition, computer,
                                        > >air-conditioned, electric windows, door locks,
                                        > >CD/AM-FM radio, and the list goes on and on, in a so
                                        > >called modern auto. And it manages to do all that at
                                        > >33% or so. Amazing isn't it? What is the efficiency of
                                        > >Hydrogen as a motor fuel? Anyone know? STAY TUNED, a
                                        > >friend and experimenter like my self are setting up an
                                        > >experiment with a Variable voltage powersupply,
                                        > >Variable frequency, square wave, among other wave
                                        > >forms, to see if any of these variable's change the
                                        > >output of splitting water into H2 & O. I will post the
                                        > >results, hopefully next week. Cheers to all
                                        >
                                        > That is all fine, and we will look forward to the results of your
                                        test, but in
                                        > my view Mark is correct and has bent over backward to over-state
                                        the matter.
                                        >
                                        > It's obvious: if your primary source of energy is a single
                                        conventional car
                                        > battery worth of energy, you're not going very far with decent
                                        performance.
                                        > Period. You can convert to as much H2 as you want, but it won't
                                        change a thing.
                                        >
                                        > To answer your question:
                                        >
                                        > In a fuel cell, the energy efficiency of converting H2 to water
                                        has been roughly
                                        > 50%, though one can get somewhat higher depending on cogen and
                                        other factors.
                                        >
                                        > If you are running H2 through an internal combustion engine, your
                                        efficiency
                                        > will still be in the same league as gasoline. The limiting factor
                                        is not the
                                        > fuel but the engine. It is limited inherently by Carnot Cycle
                                        inefficiencies.
                                        > Those inherent inefficiencies are a primary reason everyone is
                                        talking about
                                        > switching to fuel cells.

                                        THIS IS NOT A SETUP THAT MAKES ELECTRICITY FROM THE HYDROGEN.
                                      • murdoch
                                        ... If that were true (which I doubt) then the vehicle would be a first on Earth. But we have no indication of the veracity of this claim. ... That s fine.
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                          On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:10:45 -0000, you wrote:

                                          >Like i said before, this stuff (2H2 + O2) is 6 times as powerfull as
                                          >smelly gasoline. the energy releced by burning is FAR more than is
                                          >needed to make this gas.

                                          If that were true (which I doubt) then the vehicle would be a first on Earth.
                                          But we have no indication of the veracity of this claim.

                                          >note that the gas is NOT being used to make
                                          >electricity, but it is being exploded instead.

                                          That's fine. That is done already in prototype cars made by BMW and Ford,
                                          amongst others (with NOX emissions emerging as a problem). Those automakers
                                          have not yet claimed any ability to release more energy than they source.


                                          MM
                                        • James Wilson
                                          Thanks for the input. A freind an I are going to find out. We re going to find out for ourselves. The only way to sort it out,and know for sure,as far as our
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                            Thanks for the input. A freind an I are going to find
                                            out. We're going to find out for ourselves. The only
                                            way to sort it out,and know for sure,as far as our
                                            test's will tell us,is give it a shot. J.R.



                                            --- sci_plus <sci_plus@...> wrote:
                                            > Like i said before, this stuff (2H2 + O2) is 6 times
                                            > as powerfull as
                                            > smelly gasoline. the energy releced by burning is
                                            > FAR more than is
                                            > needed to make this gas. note that the gas is NOT
                                            > being used to make
                                            > electricity, but it is being exploded instead.
                                            >
                                            > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, mawrph@a... wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > In a message dated 12/7/03 4:29:37 AM,
                                            > evworld@yahoogroups.com
                                            > writes:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > > The energy comes form your auto battery. It is
                                            > the
                                            > > > process of separating H2O into its gaseous from.
                                            > It is
                                            > > > don't with pulsating DC at the correct frequency
                                            > &
                                            > > > voltage to make it more efficient than most know
                                            > > > about. I think this fellows idea's are correct.
                                            > jrem


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