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Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Bio-gasoline

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  • murdoch
    I think the issue of backward compatibility with old technologies is important in business, in general. So, if biobutanol is backward compatible with
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 16, 2011
      I think the issue of "backward compatibility" with old technologies is
      important in business, in general. So, if biobutanol is backward
      compatible with existing IC engines with little or not modification,
      then that's something to know. Likewise, biodiesel is backward
      compatible with diesel engines.

      Likewise, a GM Volt is backward compatible with existing refueling
      infrastructure whereas a Leaf is not.

      [Default] On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:58:26 +0000, "David Davidson"
      <dave_tex@...> wrote:

      >That should be: It can be used in almost any gasoline engine.
      >
      >----------
      >Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
      >
      >------Original Message------
      >From: David Davidson <dave_tex@...>
      >To: <future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com>
      >Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 12:43:13 AM GMT+0000
      >Subject: Re: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Bio-gasoline
      >
      >There is a semi "biogasoline". Butonol (sp?) is an alcohol that can be used in almost any gasoline. It doesn't require the modifications that ethanol does. I don't know a lot more about it. It has its proponents and seems finally like it's being taken seriously.
      >
      >Dave
      >
      >----------
      >Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
      >
      >------Original Message------
      >From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...>
      >To: <future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com>
      >Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 6:38:12 AM GMT+0800
      >Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM is ramping
      > up Volt production
      >
      >Boy, it's great to get such positive replies from both you guys! I have
      >followed your messages for YEARS!!! Now , if there was only a way to
      >make "biogasoline." I am an ex-pat, living in the Philippines and I
      >follow all the new EV news and "lust" for a Subaru Forrester Boxer
      >turbodiesel unit. Unfortunately they are not even offering this unit in
      >the USA. Good luck with your new Prius, Murdoch. I know it's not EV, but
      >I can use biodiesel. I have a Hyundai Tucson that I run on 100%
      >biodiesel. Well, I'll stop blathering now....thanks for the "likemind"
      >messages.
      >
      >On 6/14/2011 11:57 PM, murdoch wrote:
      >>
      >> I'm basically in agreement. I like the Volt, except for the price.
      >> It's a PHEV and not an EV and that may be better for some buyers. The
      >> vestigial GM marketing nonsense is unavoidable, but they do seem to
      >> have made a good car and now it's a matter of whether they're really
      >> serious about true mass production (which they have not really
      >> delivered yet) and a few other things, including manufacturing cost. I
      >> have seen a GM rep claim that cost is inherently a big barrier for
      >> plug-ins and that (if I understood correctly) it is in a way
      >> insurmountable in the near-term. I thought this was incorrect, but
      >> took seriously the idea that GM seemed to take it seriously.
      >>
      >> I registered the other day for a 2012 Prius Plug-in (PHEV-13,
      >> approximately). That seems to be more my compromise point in terms of
      >> present day price and EV-only range, and my own personal
      >> destination-point calculations.
      >>
      >> I like the idea of a diesel not only for the efficiencies per mile of
      >> some modern diesel efforts, but also because whether the manufacturers
      >> like it or not, brave people will step outside their warranties and
      >> hack the system and run biodiesel in their diesel engines. Partly for
      >> reasons of renewability of biodiesel, as well as possible efficiency
      >> per mile, a PHEV diesel has long been a top goal of some of us
      >> advocates, and I think to some extent still is.
      >>
      >> Yes, there are arguably some significant drawbacks to PHEV and BEV
      >> approaches, and some may say that getting a more efficient gasoline or
      >> diesel-burning non-electrified vehicle, or non-pluggable hybrid, may
      >> be the answer that works for them, particularly when the data comes in
      >> as to (claimed) manufacturer costs of production. One example of a
      >> possible drawback equation for a PHEV is that it carries two types of
      >> energy conversion systems onboard, and so the weight equations are
      >> perhaps difficult.
      >>
      >> [Default] On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT), Forbes Black
      >> <diarmaede@... <mailto:diarmaede%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
      >>
      >> >Absolutely! The Volt would be a wonderful candidate for a diesel
      >> engine. Once the ICE turns on due to low battery state-of-charge, it
      >> stays on. This removes some of the concerns over warm up time on a
      >> diesel engine.
      >> >
      >> >All this vitriol over the fact that the Volt is not a pure BEV
      >> perplexes me. Why hate it? It is a step in the right direction.
      >> >
      >> >Cheers,
      >> >
      >> >Forbes
      >> >
      >> >--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...
      >> <mailto:revcharles_96929%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...
      >> <mailto:revcharles_96929%40yahoo.com>>
      >> >Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM
      >> is ramping up Volt production
      >> >To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> >Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 5:05 AM
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >IMHO, I rather like the concept of the series hybrid. I agree, the volt
      >> >is not purely an electric vehicle. Like the mighty "diesel locomotives,"
      >> >I would like to see a diesel variant of the VOLT.
      >> >
      >> >On 6/13/2011 3:49 AM, breathonthewind wrote:
      >> >>
      >> >> The "Made in America" credit for the Volt was emphasized at the NY
      >> >> Auto show last month. I am particularly sensitive to Rhetoric and
      >> >> noticed that the GM representative, who I spoke to had a series of
      >> >> memorized "talking points," but otherwise there didn't seem to be
      >> >> anyone home. After I responded to his "talking points" he had nothing
      >> >> else to say and simply walked away.
      >> >>
      >> >> To the "Made in America" point I commented that I would love to buy
      >> >> and be proud of a domestic product but first it has to be
      >> >> demonstratively better rather than inferior. Rather than being
      >> >> "charged extra" for this point I would expect the vehicle to be
      >> >> cheaper here than one that must be shipped from 1/2 way around the
      >> >> world. As of next year the Leaf will also be "Made in America" at 2/3
      >> >> the price.
      >> >>
      >> >> Unlike the Leaf the Volt is NOT inherently an electric car, contrary
      >> >> to a belief popularized by GM. It is a hybrid, powered by electricity
      >> >> from a gasoline engine. The system is intentionally designed to
      >> >> maintain a low level of charge but not otherwise recharge the
      >> >> batteries from the petrol engine. It accepts a plug in charge
      >> >> opportunistically and dependent upon driver use. Some who may purchase
      >> >> a Volt would therefore be better off either with a high mileage petrol
      >> >> vehicle or a purely battery powered EV. The Volt unlike the Leaf is
      >> >> therefore not dependent upon a charging infrastructure.
      >> >>
      >> >> GM describes the vehicle as innovative engineering, but had an
      >> >> electromotive division from 1930 to 2005 when it started the Volt
      >> >> project. This division was producing series hybrid locomotives. It
      >> >> seems that GM might have produced this vehicle any time in the last 80
      >> >> years.
      >> >>
      >> >> GM can be credited for creating a product around a marketing campaign.
      >> >> They even wanted to trademark the term they invented called "range
      >> >> anxiety." I would just prefer to buy a vehicle not a marketing
      >> campaign.
      >> >>
      >> >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "RCjuras"
      >> >> <rcjuras@...> wrote:
      >> >> >
      >> >> > At our annual Homer Glen Earth day/Arbor Day event, we had a
      >> >> Chevrolet Volt displayed. The only one in Illinois at the time, from
      >> >> Phillips Chevrolet, in Frankfort, Illinois.
      >> >> > Phillips also sent along a Product specialist to answer questions
      >> >> about the vehicle. It was a hit at our event. People got a chance to
      >> >> see the car up-close, sit in it and have any and all questions
      >> >> answered. At a sticker price of $44,000, it was not cheap. But a
      >> >> number of people liked the car. Not only the concept, but the car
      >> >> itself. It did appear to have real market appeal.
      >> >> > But what I like most about this article is the fact that the Volt
      >> >> will be made in America and shipped to China! God knows we need to
      >> >> start having more products made here and shiiped to Asia!
      >> >> > I can see where not having enough charging stations available for
      >> >> these vehicles will be the real problem to getting more of these
      >> >> vehicles sold in the USA.
      >> >> >
      >> >> > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "k9zeh" <rich@>
      >> >> wrote:
      >> >> > >
      >> >> > > Sales of the PHEV Volt and BEV Leaf have been slow, but their
      >> >> manufacturers say it is a production, not a demand, problem. We shall
      >> >> see. The rubber hits the road late this year with production
      >> >> quantities of the Volt going to 60,000 next year and availability
      >> >> everywhere, include 25% of that output being exported.
      >> >> > >
      >> >> > >
      >> >>
      >> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/05/after-slow-start-gm-ramping-up-volt-production/
      >> >> > >
      >> >> >
      >> >>
      >> >>
      >> >
      >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >------------------------------------
      >> >
      >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • William Kozachek
      I would have to agree that backward compatibility has its place.  But like all virtues it has to be considered appropriately.  How do you see the backward
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 16, 2011
        I would have to agree that backward compatibility has its place.  But like all virtues it has to be considered appropriately.  How do you see the "backward compatibility" of an internal combustion engine vehicle when compared to horse drawn carriages, steam engines or electric cars that preceded them?  How do you see the "backward compatibility" of MP4 to VHS?  Where is the backward compatibility of the cell phone to the telegraph or the telegraph to the pony express? 
         
        Sometimes "backward compatibility" is not a virtue but the very thing that holds us back and limits our options.  For someone concerned about world wide oil production and coming shortfalls, "backward compatibility" for petrochemical fuel is what they want to avoid.  For someone concerned about issues of pollution, waste, efficiency and cost "backward compatibility" seems more like running back into the fire you just escaped. 
         
        Difficulty in letting go of the old to embrace the new is a very human condition.  It is a process that often comes after logic and choices for the strong and before for the weak.  I have a beta max around somewhere, but I never use it (weakness?)  People who purchase an EV as a "second vehicle" find that it becomes the vehicle of choice as the ICE vehicle waits for some use that could be more cheaply filled by a rental.  Tell me that you commute more than 100 miles per day and I will understand and sympathize.  But if you try to tell me you prefer pollution, inefficiency, expense, noise and are blind to the future I might be able to manage pity for an all too common addiction.  
         
        For an analysis of the EV with respect to issues of pollution and efficiency you can look here for a macroscopic perspective:  see "Sorry, Critics - Electric cars really are Greener:" http://dvice.com/archives/2009/07/shift-sorry-cri.php%c2%a0 For a perspective from the vehicle see my response here:  http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110215181221AAC0MjM
         
        For a comparison of the costs of the EV including the cost of the battery as an operating cost (and thus reducing the capital cost of the vehicle) see my response here:  http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110131092314AABTBLV%c2%a0
         
        Breath on the Wind
         
        --- On Thu, 6/16/11, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:


        From: murdoch <murdoch@...>
        Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Bio-gasoline
        To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, June 16, 2011, 5:23 AM


        I think the issue of "backward compatibility" with old technologies is
        important in business, in general.  So, if biobutanol is backward
        compatible with existing IC engines with little or not modification,
        then that's something to know.  Likewise, biodiesel is backward
        compatible with diesel engines.

        Likewise, a GM Volt is backward compatible with existing refueling
        infrastructure whereas a Leaf is not.

        [Default] On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:58:26 +0000, "David Davidson"
        <dave_tex@...> wrote:

        >That should be: It can be used in almost any gasoline engine.
        >
        >----------
        >Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
        >
        >------Original Message------
        >From: David Davidson <dave_tex@...>
        >To: <future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com>
        >Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 12:43:13 AM GMT+0000
        >Subject: Re: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Bio-gasoline
        >
        >There is a semi "biogasoline". Butonol (sp?) is an alcohol that can be used in almost any gasoline. It doesn't require the modifications that ethanol does. I don't know a lot more about it. It has its proponents and seems finally like it's being taken seriously.
        >
        >Dave
        >
        >----------
        >Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email
        >
        >------Original Message------
        >From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...>
        >To: <future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com>
        >Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 6:38:12 AM GMT+0800
        >Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM is ramping
        > up Volt production
        >
        >Boy, it's great to get such positive replies from both you guys! I have 
        >followed your messages for YEARS!!! Now , if there was only a way to
        >make "biogasoline." I am an ex-pat, living in the Philippines and I
        >follow all the new EV news and "lust" for a Subaru Forrester Boxer
        >turbodiesel unit. Unfortunately they are not even offering this unit in
        >the USA. Good luck with your new Prius, Murdoch. I know it's not EV, but
        >I can use biodiesel.  I have a Hyundai Tucson that I run on 100%
        >biodiesel. Well, I'll stop blathering now....thanks for the "likemind"
        >messages.
        >
        >On 6/14/2011 11:57 PM, murdoch wrote:
        >>
        >> I'm basically in agreement. I like the Volt, except for the price.
        >> It's a PHEV and not an EV and that may be better for some buyers. The
        >> vestigial GM marketing nonsense is unavoidable, but they do seem to
        >> have made a good car and now it's a matter of whether they're really
        >> serious about true mass production (which they have not really
        >> delivered yet) and a few other things, including manufacturing cost. I
        >> have seen a GM rep claim that cost is inherently a big barrier for
        >> plug-ins and that (if I understood correctly) it is in a way
        >> insurmountable in the near-term. I thought this was incorrect, but
        >> took seriously the idea that GM seemed to take it seriously.
        >>
        >> I registered the other day for a 2012 Prius Plug-in (PHEV-13,
        >> approximately). That seems to be more my compromise point in terms of
        >> present day price and EV-only range, and my own personal
        >> destination-point calculations.
        >>
        >> I like the idea of a diesel not only for the efficiencies per mile of
        >> some modern diesel efforts, but also because whether the manufacturers
        >> like it or not, brave people will step outside their warranties and
        >> hack the system and run biodiesel in their diesel engines. Partly for
        >> reasons of renewability of biodiesel, as well as possible efficiency
        >> per mile, a PHEV diesel has long been a top goal of some of us
        >> advocates, and I think to some extent still is.
        >>
        >> Yes, there are arguably some significant drawbacks to PHEV and BEV
        >> approaches, and some may say that getting a more efficient gasoline or
        >> diesel-burning non-electrified vehicle, or non-pluggable hybrid, may
        >> be the answer that works for them, particularly when the data comes in
        >> as to (claimed) manufacturer costs of production. One example of a
        >> possible drawback equation for a PHEV is that it carries two types of
        >> energy conversion systems onboard, and so the weight equations are
        >> perhaps difficult.
        >>
        >> [Default] On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT), Forbes Black
        >> <diarmaede@... <mailto:diarmaede%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
        >>
        >> >Absolutely!  The Volt would be a wonderful candidate for a diesel
        >> engine.  Once the ICE turns on due to low battery state-of-charge, it
        >> stays on.  This removes some of the concerns over warm up time on a
        >> diesel engine.
        >> >
        >> >All this vitriol over the fact that the Volt is not a pure BEV
        >> perplexes me.  Why hate it?  It is a step in the right direction.
        >> >
        >> >Cheers,
        >> >
        >> >Forbes
        >> >
        >> >--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...
        >> <mailto:revcharles_96929%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...
        >> <mailto:revcharles_96929%40yahoo.com>>
        >> >Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM
        >> is ramping up Volt production
        >> >To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
        >> >Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 5:05 AM
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >IMHO, I rather like the concept of the series hybrid. I agree, the volt
        >> >is not purely an electric vehicle. Like the mighty "diesel locomotives,"
        >> >I would like to see a diesel variant of the VOLT.
        >> >
        >> >On 6/13/2011 3:49 AM, breathonthewind wrote:
        >> >>
        >> >> The "Made in America" credit for the Volt was emphasized at the NY
        >> >> Auto show last month. I am particularly sensitive to Rhetoric and
        >> >> noticed that the GM representative, who I spoke to had a series of
        >> >> memorized "talking points," but otherwise there didn't seem to be
        >> >> anyone home. After I responded to his "talking points" he had nothing
        >> >> else to say and simply walked away.
        >> >>
        >> >> To the "Made in America" point I commented that I would love to buy
        >> >> and be proud of a domestic product but first it has to be
        >> >> demonstratively better rather than inferior. Rather than being
        >> >> "charged extra" for this point I would expect the vehicle to be
        >> >> cheaper here than one that must be shipped from 1/2 way around the
        >> >> world. As of next year the Leaf will also be "Made in America" at 2/3
        >> >> the price.
        >> >>
        >> >> Unlike the Leaf the Volt is NOT inherently an electric car, contrary
        >> >> to a belief popularized by GM. It is a hybrid, powered by electricity
        >> >> from a gasoline engine. The system is intentionally designed to
        >> >> maintain a low level of charge but not otherwise recharge the
        >> >> batteries from the petrol engine. It accepts a plug in charge
        >> >> opportunistically and dependent upon driver use. Some who may purchase
        >> >> a Volt would therefore be better off either with a high mileage petrol
        >> >> vehicle or a purely battery powered EV. The Volt unlike the Leaf is
        >> >> therefore not dependent upon a charging infrastructure.
        >> >>
        >> >> GM describes the vehicle as innovative engineering, but had an
        >> >> electromotive division from 1930 to 2005 when it started the Volt
        >> >> project. This division was producing series hybrid locomotives. It
        >> >> seems that GM might have produced this vehicle any time in the last 80
        >> >> years.
        >> >>
        >> >> GM can be credited for creating a product around a marketing campaign.
        >> >> They even wanted to trademark the term they invented called "range
        >> >> anxiety." I would just prefer to buy a vehicle not a marketing
        >> campaign.
        >> >>
        >> >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
        >> >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "RCjuras"
        >> >> <rcjuras@...> wrote:
        >> >> >
        >> >> > At our annual Homer Glen Earth day/Arbor Day event, we had a
        >> >> Chevrolet Volt displayed. The only one in Illinois at the time, from
        >> >> Phillips Chevrolet, in Frankfort, Illinois.
        >> >> > Phillips also sent along a Product specialist to answer questions
        >> >> about the vehicle. It was a hit at our event. People got a chance to
        >> >> see the car up-close, sit in it and have any and all questions
        >> >> answered. At a sticker price of $44,000, it was not cheap. But a
        >> >> number of people liked the car. Not only the concept, but the car
        >> >> itself. It did appear to have real market appeal.
        >> >> > But what I like most about this article is the fact that the Volt
        >> >> will be made in America and shipped to China! God knows we need to
        >> >> start having more products made here and shiiped to Asia!
        >> >> > I can see where not having enough charging stations available for
        >> >> these vehicles will be the real problem to getting more of these
        >> >> vehicles sold in the USA.
        >> >> >
        >> >> > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
        >> >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "k9zeh" <rich@>
        >> >> wrote:
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > Sales of the PHEV Volt and BEV Leaf have been slow, but their
        >> >> manufacturers say it is a production, not a demand, problem. We shall
        >> >> see. The rubber hits the road late this year with production
        >> >> quantities of the Volt going to 60,000 next year and availability
        >> >> everywhere, include 25% of that output being exported.
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > >
        >> >>
        >> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/05/after-slow-start-gm-ramping-up-volt-production/
        >> >> > >
        >> >> >
        >> >>
        >> >>
        >> >
        >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >------------------------------------
        >> >
        >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        ------------------------------------

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