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Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM is ramping up Volt production

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  • murdoch
    I m basically in agreement. I like the Volt, except for the price. It s a PHEV and not an EV and that may be better for some buyers. The vestigial GM
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 14, 2011
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      I'm basically in agreement. I like the Volt, except for the price.
      It's a PHEV and not an EV and that may be better for some buyers. The
      vestigial GM marketing nonsense is unavoidable, but they do seem to
      have made a good car and now it's a matter of whether they're really
      serious about true mass production (which they have not really
      delivered yet) and a few other things, including manufacturing cost. I
      have seen a GM rep claim that cost is inherently a big barrier for
      plug-ins and that (if I understood correctly) it is in a way
      insurmountable in the near-term. I thought this was incorrect, but
      took seriously the idea that GM seemed to take it seriously.

      I registered the other day for a 2012 Prius Plug-in (PHEV-13,
      approximately). That seems to be more my compromise point in terms of
      present day price and EV-only range, and my own personal
      destination-point calculations.

      I like the idea of a diesel not only for the efficiencies per mile of
      some modern diesel efforts, but also because whether the manufacturers
      like it or not, brave people will step outside their warranties and
      hack the system and run biodiesel in their diesel engines. Partly for
      reasons of renewability of biodiesel, as well as possible efficiency
      per mile, a PHEV diesel has long been a top goal of some of us
      advocates, and I think to some extent still is.

      Yes, there are arguably some significant drawbacks to PHEV and BEV
      approaches, and some may say that getting a more efficient gasoline or
      diesel-burning non-electrified vehicle, or non-pluggable hybrid, may
      be the answer that works for them, particularly when the data comes in
      as to (claimed) manufacturer costs of production. One example of a
      possible drawback equation for a PHEV is that it carries two types of
      energy conversion systems onboard, and so the weight equations are
      perhaps difficult.




      [Default] On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT), Forbes Black
      <diarmaede@...> wrote:

      >Absolutely!  The Volt would be a wonderful candidate for a diesel engine.  Once the ICE turns on due to low battery state-of-charge, it stays on.  This removes some of the concerns over warm up time on a diesel engine.

      >All this vitriol over the fact that the Volt is not a pure BEV perplexes me.  Why hate it?  It is a step in the right direction.

      >Cheers,
      >
      >Forbes
      >
      >--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...>
      >Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM is ramping up Volt production
      >To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 5:05 AM
      >
      >

      >
      >
      >
      >IMHO, I rather like the concept of the series hybrid. I agree, the volt
      >is not purely an electric vehicle. Like the mighty "diesel locomotives,"
      >I would like to see a diesel variant of the VOLT.
      >
      >On 6/13/2011 3:49 AM, breathonthewind wrote:
      >>
      >> The "Made in America" credit for the Volt was emphasized at the NY
      >> Auto show last month. I am particularly sensitive to Rhetoric and
      >> noticed that the GM representative, who I spoke to had a series of
      >> memorized "talking points," but otherwise there didn't seem to be
      >> anyone home. After I responded to his "talking points" he had nothing
      >> else to say and simply walked away.
      >>
      >> To the "Made in America" point I commented that I would love to buy
      >> and be proud of a domestic product but first it has to be
      >> demonstratively better rather than inferior. Rather than being
      >> "charged extra" for this point I would expect the vehicle to be
      >> cheaper here than one that must be shipped from 1/2 way around the
      >> world. As of next year the Leaf will also be "Made in America" at 2/3
      >> the price.
      >>
      >> Unlike the Leaf the Volt is NOT inherently an electric car, contrary
      >> to a belief popularized by GM. It is a hybrid, powered by electricity
      >> from a gasoline engine. The system is intentionally designed to
      >> maintain a low level of charge but not otherwise recharge the
      >> batteries from the petrol engine. It accepts a plug in charge
      >> opportunistically and dependent upon driver use. Some who may purchase
      >> a Volt would therefore be better off either with a high mileage petrol
      >> vehicle or a purely battery powered EV. The Volt unlike the Leaf is
      >> therefore not dependent upon a charging infrastructure.
      >>
      >> GM describes the vehicle as innovative engineering, but had an
      >> electromotive division from 1930 to 2005 when it started the Volt
      >> project. This division was producing series hybrid locomotives. It
      >> seems that GM might have produced this vehicle any time in the last 80
      >> years.
      >>
      >> GM can be credited for creating a product around a marketing campaign.
      >> They even wanted to trademark the term they invented called "range
      >> anxiety." I would just prefer to buy a vehicle not a marketing campaign.
      >>
      >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "RCjuras"
      >> <rcjuras@...> wrote:
      >> >
      >> > At our annual Homer Glen Earth day/Arbor Day event, we had a
      >> Chevrolet Volt displayed. The only one in Illinois at the time, from
      >> Phillips Chevrolet, in Frankfort, Illinois.
      >> > Phillips also sent along a Product specialist to answer questions
      >> about the vehicle. It was a hit at our event. People got a chance to
      >> see the car up-close, sit in it and have any and all questions
      >> answered. At a sticker price of $44,000, it was not cheap. But a
      >> number of people liked the car. Not only the concept, but the car
      >> itself. It did appear to have real market appeal.
      >> > But what I like most about this article is the fact that the Volt
      >> will be made in America and shipped to China! God knows we need to
      >> start having more products made here and shiiped to Asia!
      >> > I can see where not having enough charging stations available for
      >> these vehicles will be the real problem to getting more of these
      >> vehicles sold in the USA.
      >> >
      >> > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "k9zeh" <rich@>
      >> wrote:
      >> > >
      >> > > Sales of the PHEV Volt and BEV Leaf have been slow, but their
      >> manufacturers say it is a production, not a demand, problem. We shall
      >> see. The rubber hits the road late this year with production
      >> quantities of the Volt going to 60,000 next year and availability
      >> everywhere, include 25% of that output being exported.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/05/after-slow-start-gm-ramping-up-volt-production/
      >> > >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Charles Schmidt
      Boy, it s great to get such positive replies from both you guys! I have followed your messages for YEARS!!! Now , if there was only a way to make
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 14, 2011
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        Boy, it's great to get such positive replies from both you guys! I have
        followed your messages for YEARS!!! Now , if there was only a way to
        make "biogasoline." I am an ex-pat, living in the Philippines and I
        follow all the new EV news and "lust" for a Subaru Forrester Boxer
        turbodiesel unit. Unfortunately they are not even offering this unit in
        the USA. Good luck with your new Prius, Murdoch. I know it's not EV, but
        I can use biodiesel. I have a Hyundai Tucson that I run on 100%
        biodiesel. Well, I'll stop blathering now....thanks for the "likemind"
        messages.

        On 6/14/2011 11:57 PM, murdoch wrote:
        >
        > I'm basically in agreement. I like the Volt, except for the price.
        > It's a PHEV and not an EV and that may be better for some buyers. The
        > vestigial GM marketing nonsense is unavoidable, but they do seem to
        > have made a good car and now it's a matter of whether they're really
        > serious about true mass production (which they have not really
        > delivered yet) and a few other things, including manufacturing cost. I
        > have seen a GM rep claim that cost is inherently a big barrier for
        > plug-ins and that (if I understood correctly) it is in a way
        > insurmountable in the near-term. I thought this was incorrect, but
        > took seriously the idea that GM seemed to take it seriously.
        >
        > I registered the other day for a 2012 Prius Plug-in (PHEV-13,
        > approximately). That seems to be more my compromise point in terms of
        > present day price and EV-only range, and my own personal
        > destination-point calculations.
        >
        > I like the idea of a diesel not only for the efficiencies per mile of
        > some modern diesel efforts, but also because whether the manufacturers
        > like it or not, brave people will step outside their warranties and
        > hack the system and run biodiesel in their diesel engines. Partly for
        > reasons of renewability of biodiesel, as well as possible efficiency
        > per mile, a PHEV diesel has long been a top goal of some of us
        > advocates, and I think to some extent still is.
        >
        > Yes, there are arguably some significant drawbacks to PHEV and BEV
        > approaches, and some may say that getting a more efficient gasoline or
        > diesel-burning non-electrified vehicle, or non-pluggable hybrid, may
        > be the answer that works for them, particularly when the data comes in
        > as to (claimed) manufacturer costs of production. One example of a
        > possible drawback equation for a PHEV is that it carries two types of
        > energy conversion systems onboard, and so the weight equations are
        > perhaps difficult.
        >
        > [Default] On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT), Forbes Black
        > <diarmaede@... <mailto:diarmaede%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
        >
        > >Absolutely! The Volt would be a wonderful candidate for a diesel
        > engine. Once the ICE turns on due to low battery state-of-charge, it
        > stays on. This removes some of the concerns over warm up time on a
        > diesel engine.
        > >
        > >All this vitriol over the fact that the Volt is not a pure BEV
        > perplexes me. Why hate it? It is a step in the right direction.
        > >
        > >Cheers,
        > >
        > >Forbes
        > >
        > >--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...
        > <mailto:revcharles_96929%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...
        > <mailto:revcharles_96929%40yahoo.com>>
        > >Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM
        > is ramping up Volt production
        > >To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 5:05 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >IMHO, I rather like the concept of the series hybrid. I agree, the volt
        > >is not purely an electric vehicle. Like the mighty "diesel locomotives,"
        > >I would like to see a diesel variant of the VOLT.
        > >
        > >On 6/13/2011 3:49 AM, breathonthewind wrote:
        > >>
        > >> The "Made in America" credit for the Volt was emphasized at the NY
        > >> Auto show last month. I am particularly sensitive to Rhetoric and
        > >> noticed that the GM representative, who I spoke to had a series of
        > >> memorized "talking points," but otherwise there didn't seem to be
        > >> anyone home. After I responded to his "talking points" he had nothing
        > >> else to say and simply walked away.
        > >>
        > >> To the "Made in America" point I commented that I would love to buy
        > >> and be proud of a domestic product but first it has to be
        > >> demonstratively better rather than inferior. Rather than being
        > >> "charged extra" for this point I would expect the vehicle to be
        > >> cheaper here than one that must be shipped from 1/2 way around the
        > >> world. As of next year the Leaf will also be "Made in America" at 2/3
        > >> the price.
        > >>
        > >> Unlike the Leaf the Volt is NOT inherently an electric car, contrary
        > >> to a belief popularized by GM. It is a hybrid, powered by electricity
        > >> from a gasoline engine. The system is intentionally designed to
        > >> maintain a low level of charge but not otherwise recharge the
        > >> batteries from the petrol engine. It accepts a plug in charge
        > >> opportunistically and dependent upon driver use. Some who may purchase
        > >> a Volt would therefore be better off either with a high mileage petrol
        > >> vehicle or a purely battery powered EV. The Volt unlike the Leaf is
        > >> therefore not dependent upon a charging infrastructure.
        > >>
        > >> GM describes the vehicle as innovative engineering, but had an
        > >> electromotive division from 1930 to 2005 when it started the Volt
        > >> project. This division was producing series hybrid locomotives. It
        > >> seems that GM might have produced this vehicle any time in the last 80
        > >> years.
        > >>
        > >> GM can be credited for creating a product around a marketing campaign.
        > >> They even wanted to trademark the term they invented called "range
        > >> anxiety." I would just prefer to buy a vehicle not a marketing
        > campaign.
        > >>
        > >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "RCjuras"
        > >> <rcjuras@...> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> > At our annual Homer Glen Earth day/Arbor Day event, we had a
        > >> Chevrolet Volt displayed. The only one in Illinois at the time, from
        > >> Phillips Chevrolet, in Frankfort, Illinois.
        > >> > Phillips also sent along a Product specialist to answer questions
        > >> about the vehicle. It was a hit at our event. People got a chance to
        > >> see the car up-close, sit in it and have any and all questions
        > >> answered. At a sticker price of $44,000, it was not cheap. But a
        > >> number of people liked the car. Not only the concept, but the car
        > >> itself. It did appear to have real market appeal.
        > >> > But what I like most about this article is the fact that the Volt
        > >> will be made in America and shipped to China! God knows we need to
        > >> start having more products made here and shiiped to Asia!
        > >> > I can see where not having enough charging stations available for
        > >> these vehicles will be the real problem to getting more of these
        > >> vehicles sold in the USA.
        > >> >
        > >> > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
        > >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "k9zeh" <rich@>
        > >> wrote:
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Sales of the PHEV Volt and BEV Leaf have been slow, but their
        > >> manufacturers say it is a production, not a demand, problem. We shall
        > >> see. The rubber hits the road late this year with production
        > >> quantities of the Volt going to 60,000 next year and availability
        > >> everywhere, include 25% of that output being exported.
        > >> > >
        > >> > >
        > >>
        > http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/05/after-slow-start-gm-ramping-up-volt-production/
        > >> > >
        > >> >
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >------------------------------------
        > >
        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • breathonthewind
        There are some who complained bitterly about the Volt first because it does not charge its batteries and secondly because at top speed the ICE helps to power
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 14, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          There are some who complained bitterly about the Volt first because it does not charge its batteries and secondly because at top speed the ICE helps to power the vehicle through the transmission which takes it out of the catagory of a "pure" series (and plug in) hybrid. I raised neither of these issues, but was put off by marketing that plays upon fears (range anxiety) exaggeration (the technology has been used in series hybrid locomotives manufactured by GM from 1930 and misinformation (the volt is not a pure BEV.)

          People need different kinds of vehicles. This is particularly true for the vocal 10% who have a commute over 40 miles. Commercial service may also favorably use a series hybrid. To the extent that the Volt uses an electric motor for powering the vehicle it is an EV as are subways, trams, mag lev trains (linear electric motors), solar cars, fuel cell vehicles and even ultra capacitor buses. None of these are a BEV either. My personal definition for an EV stops when an the vehicle uses another motor for traction assistance so I would not include a parallel hybrid or every vehicle with an electric starter. This does not make them bad vehicles. On the contrary they too may have a niche. But when a company hypes its product beyond the norm it gives me more pause than encouragement.

          From a technological perspective, I am very disappointed with the performance of the Volt. I would have expected a MPGe better than the Prius when compared to this chart: http://serieshybrid.com/FreedomFormula/images/Drivetrain_Comparison.pdf The actual mileage is highly dependent upon driver operation because the Volt ICE will only give about 36 mpg and will not recharge the batteries.

          While some of the discussion has suggested a diesel engine to support a series PHEV, the internal combustion engine in its present form is essentially flawed. The engine will pollute no matter what fuel is used: http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/05-autos.pdf Even theoritical limits predicted by the laws of thermodynamics are further reduced by the need to incorporate a transmission due to essentially no torque at starting RPM. The resulting efficiency can be very low (less than 15%) and is only marginally being imporved. Such a design would have been welcomed by a petrochemical company of the 1930's trying to sell its product.

          We live in different times. There are other engines that would serve better. The quasi-turbine can be configured as an internal or external combustion (or even a compressed air) engine. http://www.gizmag.com/go/3501/ The BRASH is a design using compression and external combustion: http://www.youtube.com/user/brashengines Such engines, like the electrics have a higher efficiency, no starting torque issuses, and no need for a transmission.

          We should not mistake rebuilding one wall of a box with "thinking outside" of it.

          --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Forbes Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:
          >
          > Absolutely!  The Volt would be a wonderful candidate for a diesel engine.  Once the ICE turns on due to low battery state-of-charge, it stays on.  This removes some of the concerns over warm up time on a diesel engine.
          >  
          > All this vitriol over the fact that the Volt is not a pure BEV perplexes me.  Why hate it?  It is a step in the right direction.
          >  
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Forbes
          >
          > --- On Mon, 6/13/11, Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...>
          > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM is ramping up Volt production
          > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 5:05 AM
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > IMHO, I rather like the concept of the series hybrid. I agree, the volt
          > is not purely an electric vehicle. Like the mighty "diesel locomotives,"
          > I would like to see a diesel variant of the VOLT.
          >
          > On 6/13/2011 3:49 AM, breathonthewind wrote:
          > >
          > > The "Made in America" credit for the Volt was emphasized at the NY
          > > Auto show last month. I am particularly sensitive to Rhetoric and
          > > noticed that the GM representative, who I spoke to had a series of
          > > memorized "talking points," but otherwise there didn't seem to be
          > > anyone home. After I responded to his "talking points" he had nothing
          > > else to say and simply walked away.
          > >
          > > To the "Made in America" point I commented that I would love to buy
          > > and be proud of a domestic product but first it has to be
          > > demonstratively better rather than inferior. Rather than being
          > > "charged extra" for this point I would expect the vehicle to be
          > > cheaper here than one that must be shipped from 1/2 way around the
          > > world. As of next year the Leaf will also be "Made in America" at 2/3
          > > the price.
          > >
          > > Unlike the Leaf the Volt is NOT inherently an electric car, contrary
          > > to a belief popularized by GM. It is a hybrid, powered by electricity
          > > from a gasoline engine. The system is intentionally designed to
          > > maintain a low level of charge but not otherwise recharge the
          > > batteries from the petrol engine. It accepts a plug in charge
          > > opportunistically and dependent upon driver use. Some who may purchase
          > > a Volt would therefore be better off either with a high mileage petrol
          > > vehicle or a purely battery powered EV. The Volt unlike the Leaf is
          > > therefore not dependent upon a charging infrastructure.
          > >
          > > GM describes the vehicle as innovative engineering, but had an
          > > electromotive division from 1930 to 2005 when it started the Volt
          > > project. This division was producing series hybrid locomotives. It
          > > seems that GM might have produced this vehicle any time in the last 80
          > > years.
          > >
          > > GM can be credited for creating a product around a marketing campaign.
          > > They even wanted to trademark the term they invented called "range
          > > anxiety." I would just prefer to buy a vehicle not a marketing campaign.
          > >
          > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "RCjuras"
          > > <rcjuras@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > At our annual Homer Glen Earth day/Arbor Day event, we had a
          > > Chevrolet Volt displayed. The only one in Illinois at the time, from
          > > Phillips Chevrolet, in Frankfort, Illinois.
          > > > Phillips also sent along a Product specialist to answer questions
          > > about the vehicle. It was a hit at our event. People got a chance to
          > > see the car up-close, sit in it and have any and all questions
          > > answered. At a sticker price of $44,000, it was not cheap. But a
          > > number of people liked the car. Not only the concept, but the car
          > > itself. It did appear to have real market appeal.
          > > > But what I like most about this article is the fact that the Volt
          > > will be made in America and shipped to China! God knows we need to
          > > start having more products made here and shiiped to Asia!
          > > > I can see where not having enough charging stations available for
          > > these vehicles will be the real problem to getting more of these
          > > vehicles sold in the USA.
          > > >
          > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "k9zeh" <rich@>
          > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Sales of the PHEV Volt and BEV Leaf have been slow, but their
          > > manufacturers say it is a production, not a demand, problem. We shall
          > > see. The rubber hits the road late this year with production
          > > quantities of the Volt going to 60,000 next year and availability
          > > everywhere, include 25% of that output being exported.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/05/after-slow-start-gm-ramping-up-volt-production/
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • RCjuras
          As I watched people going through our Earth Day event, many stopped by to check-out the Volt. They were not car guys or even very interested in pure electric
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 15, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            As I watched people going through our Earth Day event, many stopped by to check-out the Volt. They were not "car guys" or even very interested in pure electric transportation. These happen to be the bulk of the car buying public. What they thought of the Volt was interesting.
            Since most said they would forget to charge the vehicle every night, they could relate to having the ICE back-up.
            The Volt is far from perfect, but it does address the true issue with getting more environmentally friendly vehicles sold.
            When I get to the MREA (Midwest Renewable Energy Fair) this weekend in Custer, Wisconsin, there will be many 'hardcore' electric vehicle types in attendance. But those people do not represent the real market alternative vehicles are after. Price and ease of operation are what "mainstream" auto buyers are after.
            The Volt is another step closer to alternative energy source vehicles gaining more market share.

            --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm basically in agreement. I like the Volt, except for the price.
            > It's a PHEV and not an EV and that may be better for some buyers. The
            > vestigial GM marketing nonsense is unavoidable, but they do seem to
            > have made a good car and now it's a matter of whether they're really
            > serious about true mass production (which they have not really
            > delivered yet) and a few other things, including manufacturing cost. I
            > have seen a GM rep claim that cost is inherently a big barrier for
            > plug-ins and that (if I understood correctly) it is in a way
            > insurmountable in the near-term. I thought this was incorrect, but
            > took seriously the idea that GM seemed to take it seriously.
            >
            > I registered the other day for a 2012 Prius Plug-in (PHEV-13,
            > approximately). That seems to be more my compromise point in terms of
            > present day price and EV-only range, and my own personal
            > destination-point calculations.
            >
            > I like the idea of a diesel not only for the efficiencies per mile of
            > some modern diesel efforts, but also because whether the manufacturers
            > like it or not, brave people will step outside their warranties and
            > hack the system and run biodiesel in their diesel engines. Partly for
            > reasons of renewability of biodiesel, as well as possible efficiency
            > per mile, a PHEV diesel has long been a top goal of some of us
            > advocates, and I think to some extent still is.
            >
            > Yes, there are arguably some significant drawbacks to PHEV and BEV
            > approaches, and some may say that getting a more efficient gasoline or
            > diesel-burning non-electrified vehicle, or non-pluggable hybrid, may
            > be the answer that works for them, particularly when the data comes in
            > as to (claimed) manufacturer costs of production. One example of a
            > possible drawback equation for a PHEV is that it carries two types of
            > energy conversion systems onboard, and so the weight equations are
            > perhaps difficult.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Default] On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT), Forbes Black
            > <diarmaede@...> wrote:
            >
            > >Absolutely!  The Volt would be a wonderful candidate for a diesel engine.  Once the ICE turns on due to low battery state-of-charge, it stays on.  This removes some of the concerns over warm up time on a diesel engine.
            > > 
            > >All this vitriol over the fact that the Volt is not a pure BEV perplexes me.  Why hate it?  It is a step in the right direction.
            > > 
            > >Cheers,
            > >
            > >Forbes
            > >
            > >--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...>
            > >Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM is ramping up Volt production
            > >To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
            > >Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 5:05 AM
            > >
            > >
            > > 
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >IMHO, I rather like the concept of the series hybrid. I agree, the volt
            > >is not purely an electric vehicle. Like the mighty "diesel locomotives,"
            > >I would like to see a diesel variant of the VOLT.
            > >
            > >On 6/13/2011 3:49 AM, breathonthewind wrote:
            > >>
            > >> The "Made in America" credit for the Volt was emphasized at the NY
            > >> Auto show last month. I am particularly sensitive to Rhetoric and
            > >> noticed that the GM representative, who I spoke to had a series of
            > >> memorized "talking points," but otherwise there didn't seem to be
            > >> anyone home. After I responded to his "talking points" he had nothing
            > >> else to say and simply walked away.
            > >>
            > >> To the "Made in America" point I commented that I would love to buy
            > >> and be proud of a domestic product but first it has to be
            > >> demonstratively better rather than inferior. Rather than being
            > >> "charged extra" for this point I would expect the vehicle to be
            > >> cheaper here than one that must be shipped from 1/2 way around the
            > >> world. As of next year the Leaf will also be "Made in America" at 2/3
            > >> the price.
            > >>
            > >> Unlike the Leaf the Volt is NOT inherently an electric car, contrary
            > >> to a belief popularized by GM. It is a hybrid, powered by electricity
            > >> from a gasoline engine. The system is intentionally designed to
            > >> maintain a low level of charge but not otherwise recharge the
            > >> batteries from the petrol engine. It accepts a plug in charge
            > >> opportunistically and dependent upon driver use. Some who may purchase
            > >> a Volt would therefore be better off either with a high mileage petrol
            > >> vehicle or a purely battery powered EV. The Volt unlike the Leaf is
            > >> therefore not dependent upon a charging infrastructure.
            > >>
            > >> GM describes the vehicle as innovative engineering, but had an
            > >> electromotive division from 1930 to 2005 when it started the Volt
            > >> project. This division was producing series hybrid locomotives. It
            > >> seems that GM might have produced this vehicle any time in the last 80
            > >> years.
            > >>
            > >> GM can be credited for creating a product around a marketing campaign.
            > >> They even wanted to trademark the term they invented called "range
            > >> anxiety." I would just prefer to buy a vehicle not a marketing campaign.
            > >>
            > >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
            > >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "RCjuras"
            > >> <rcjuras@> wrote:
            > >> >
            > >> > At our annual Homer Glen Earth day/Arbor Day event, we had a
            > >> Chevrolet Volt displayed. The only one in Illinois at the time, from
            > >> Phillips Chevrolet, in Frankfort, Illinois.
            > >> > Phillips also sent along a Product specialist to answer questions
            > >> about the vehicle. It was a hit at our event. People got a chance to
            > >> see the car up-close, sit in it and have any and all questions
            > >> answered. At a sticker price of $44,000, it was not cheap. But a
            > >> number of people liked the car. Not only the concept, but the car
            > >> itself. It did appear to have real market appeal.
            > >> > But what I like most about this article is the fact that the Volt
            > >> will be made in America and shipped to China! God knows we need to
            > >> start having more products made here and shiiped to Asia!
            > >> > I can see where not having enough charging stations available for
            > >> these vehicles will be the real problem to getting more of these
            > >> vehicles sold in the USA.
            > >> >
            > >> > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
            > >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "k9zeh" <rich@>
            > >> wrote:
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Sales of the PHEV Volt and BEV Leaf have been slow, but their
            > >> manufacturers say it is a production, not a demand, problem. We shall
            > >> see. The rubber hits the road late this year with production
            > >> quantities of the Volt going to 60,000 next year and availability
            > >> everywhere, include 25% of that output being exported.
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/05/after-slow-start-gm-ramping-up-volt-production/
            > >> > >
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >------------------------------------
            > >
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • murdoch
            Hi RevCharles: I don t know if I ll get the Toyota, but it felt good to be signed up for it while I watch Ford dither, while Mitsubishi prepares, while I
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 16, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi RevCharles:

              I don't know if I'll get the Toyota, but it felt good to be signed up
              for it while I watch Ford dither, while Mitsubishi prepares, while I
              figure out if CODA might be worth a risk, and while GM, and Nissan and
              all the others figure out whether they can lower prices (subsidized or
              not) to a range I can deal with.

              I haven't driven a PHEV yet, but I have put in some time in going to
              some industry events and following the Volt story, and so-on. I don't
              write as much as I used to since my time is paid-for and so I refrain
              from sharing. Still, it seems wrong for me to cut off all
              communication, and these groups have always been a life-blood for me
              to develop my own thinking and read the thoughts of others.

              I'm not sure if the big 3 consumer plug-ins being made right now would
              (any of them) qualify as truly in mass production, but they're coming
              out in decent numbers compared to the past. We continue to get some
              mixed signals from some EV manufacturers. For example: if the Volt is
              in demand to the point of frustrating even more potential buyers, why
              did GM simply shut down production while in theory working to set up
              higher-volume mass production? Well, I guess there's probably an
              answer. I wouldn't ask the question except for GM's deep history of
              blatant anti-customer behavior when it came down to it with EVs.





              [Default] On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 06:38:12 +0800, Charles Schmidt
              <revcharles_96929@...> wrote:

              >Boy, it's great to get such positive replies from both you guys! I have
              >followed your messages for YEARS!!! Now , if there was only a way to
              >make "biogasoline." I am an ex-pat, living in the Philippines and I
              >follow all the new EV news and "lust" for a Subaru Forrester Boxer
              >turbodiesel unit. Unfortunately they are not even offering this unit in
              >the USA. Good luck with your new Prius, Murdoch. I know it's not EV, but
              >I can use biodiesel. I have a Hyundai Tucson that I run on 100%
              >biodiesel. Well, I'll stop blathering now....thanks for the "likemind"
              >messages.
              >
              >On 6/14/2011 11:57 PM, murdoch wrote:
              >>
              >> I'm basically in agreement. I like the Volt, except for the price.
              >> It's a PHEV and not an EV and that may be better for some buyers. The
              >> vestigial GM marketing nonsense is unavoidable, but they do seem to
              >> have made a good car and now it's a matter of whether they're really
              >> serious about true mass production (which they have not really
              >> delivered yet) and a few other things, including manufacturing cost. I
              >> have seen a GM rep claim that cost is inherently a big barrier for
              >> plug-ins and that (if I understood correctly) it is in a way
              >> insurmountable in the near-term. I thought this was incorrect, but
              >> took seriously the idea that GM seemed to take it seriously.
              >>
              >> I registered the other day for a 2012 Prius Plug-in (PHEV-13,
              >> approximately). That seems to be more my compromise point in terms of
              >> present day price and EV-only range, and my own personal
              >> destination-point calculations.
              >>
              >> I like the idea of a diesel not only for the efficiencies per mile of
              >> some modern diesel efforts, but also because whether the manufacturers
              >> like it or not, brave people will step outside their warranties and
              >> hack the system and run biodiesel in their diesel engines. Partly for
              >> reasons of renewability of biodiesel, as well as possible efficiency
              >> per mile, a PHEV diesel has long been a top goal of some of us
              >> advocates, and I think to some extent still is.
              >>
              >> Yes, there are arguably some significant drawbacks to PHEV and BEV
              >> approaches, and some may say that getting a more efficient gasoline or
              >> diesel-burning non-electrified vehicle, or non-pluggable hybrid, may
              >> be the answer that works for them, particularly when the data comes in
              >> as to (claimed) manufacturer costs of production. One example of a
              >> possible drawback equation for a PHEV is that it carries two types of
              >> energy conversion systems onboard, and so the weight equations are
              >> perhaps difficult.
              >>
              >> [Default] On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT), Forbes Black
              >> <diarmaede@... <mailto:diarmaede%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
              >>
              >> >Absolutely! The Volt would be a wonderful candidate for a diesel
              >> engine. Once the ICE turns on due to low battery state-of-charge, it
              >> stays on. This removes some of the concerns over warm up time on a
              >> diesel engine.
              >> >
              >> >All this vitriol over the fact that the Volt is not a pure BEV
              >> perplexes me. Why hate it? It is a step in the right direction.
              >> >
              >> >Cheers,
              >> >
              >> >Forbes
              >> >
              >> >--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...
              >> <mailto:revcharles_96929%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >From: Charles Schmidt <revcharles_96929@...
              >> <mailto:revcharles_96929%40yahoo.com>>
              >> >Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: After a slow start, GM
              >> is ramping up Volt production
              >> >To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> >Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 5:05 AM
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >IMHO, I rather like the concept of the series hybrid. I agree, the volt
              >> >is not purely an electric vehicle. Like the mighty "diesel locomotives,"
              >> >I would like to see a diesel variant of the VOLT.
              >> >
              >> >On 6/13/2011 3:49 AM, breathonthewind wrote:
              >> >>
              >> >> The "Made in America" credit for the Volt was emphasized at the NY
              >> >> Auto show last month. I am particularly sensitive to Rhetoric and
              >> >> noticed that the GM representative, who I spoke to had a series of
              >> >> memorized "talking points," but otherwise there didn't seem to be
              >> >> anyone home. After I responded to his "talking points" he had nothing
              >> >> else to say and simply walked away.
              >> >>
              >> >> To the "Made in America" point I commented that I would love to buy
              >> >> and be proud of a domestic product but first it has to be
              >> >> demonstratively better rather than inferior. Rather than being
              >> >> "charged extra" for this point I would expect the vehicle to be
              >> >> cheaper here than one that must be shipped from 1/2 way around the
              >> >> world. As of next year the Leaf will also be "Made in America" at 2/3
              >> >> the price.
              >> >>
              >> >> Unlike the Leaf the Volt is NOT inherently an electric car, contrary
              >> >> to a belief popularized by GM. It is a hybrid, powered by electricity
              >> >> from a gasoline engine. The system is intentionally designed to
              >> >> maintain a low level of charge but not otherwise recharge the
              >> >> batteries from the petrol engine. It accepts a plug in charge
              >> >> opportunistically and dependent upon driver use. Some who may purchase
              >> >> a Volt would therefore be better off either with a high mileage petrol
              >> >> vehicle or a purely battery powered EV. The Volt unlike the Leaf is
              >> >> therefore not dependent upon a charging infrastructure.
              >> >>
              >> >> GM describes the vehicle as innovative engineering, but had an
              >> >> electromotive division from 1930 to 2005 when it started the Volt
              >> >> project. This division was producing series hybrid locomotives. It
              >> >> seems that GM might have produced this vehicle any time in the last 80
              >> >> years.
              >> >>
              >> >> GM can be credited for creating a product around a marketing campaign.
              >> >> They even wanted to trademark the term they invented called "range
              >> >> anxiety." I would just prefer to buy a vehicle not a marketing
              >> campaign.
              >> >>
              >> >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "RCjuras"
              >> >> <rcjuras@...> wrote:
              >> >> >
              >> >> > At our annual Homer Glen Earth day/Arbor Day event, we had a
              >> >> Chevrolet Volt displayed. The only one in Illinois at the time, from
              >> >> Phillips Chevrolet, in Frankfort, Illinois.
              >> >> > Phillips also sent along a Product specialist to answer questions
              >> >> about the vehicle. It was a hit at our event. People got a chance to
              >> >> see the car up-close, sit in it and have any and all questions
              >> >> answered. At a sticker price of $44,000, it was not cheap. But a
              >> >> number of people liked the car. Not only the concept, but the car
              >> >> itself. It did appear to have real market appeal.
              >> >> > But what I like most about this article is the fact that the Volt
              >> >> will be made in America and shipped to China! God knows we need to
              >> >> start having more products made here and shiiped to Asia!
              >> >> > I can see where not having enough charging stations available for
              >> >> these vehicles will be the real problem to getting more of these
              >> >> vehicles sold in the USA.
              >> >> >
              >> >> > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>
              >> >> <mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles%40yahoogroups.com>, "k9zeh" <rich@>
              >> >> wrote:
              >> >> > >
              >> >> > > Sales of the PHEV Volt and BEV Leaf have been slow, but their
              >> >> manufacturers say it is a production, not a demand, problem. We shall
              >> >> see. The rubber hits the road late this year with production
              >> >> quantities of the Volt going to 60,000 next year and availability
              >> >> everywhere, include 25% of that output being exported.
              >> >> > >
              >> >> > >
              >> >>
              >> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/05/after-slow-start-gm-ramping-up-volt-production/
              >> >> > >
              >> >> >
              >> >>
              >> >>
              >> >
              >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >------------------------------------
              >> >
              >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
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