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Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

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  • Forbes Black
    I ve been watching from a distance.  You kids have been playing nicely.  You all get extra icecream for dessert.   Cheers, Forbes ... From: Dave
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 9 4:35 PM
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      I've been watching from a distance.  You kids have been playing nicely.  You all get extra icecream for dessert.
       
      Cheers,

      Forbes

      --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:


      From: Dave <davenevland@...>
      Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
      To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 2:32 PM


       



      That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way less significant than this.

      --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
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      > Dave
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      > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with copying and pasting.
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      > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
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      > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
      > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
      > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM
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      > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.
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      > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!
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      > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
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      > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
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      > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
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      > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 
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      > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.
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      > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
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      > > > Dave,
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      > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
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      > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
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      > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
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      > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
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      > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
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      > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
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      > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
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      > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
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      > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
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      > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
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      > > > > Ollie,
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      > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
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      > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
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      > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
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      > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
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      > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
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      > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
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      > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
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      > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
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      > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
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      > > > > -----Original Message-----
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      > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
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      > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
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      > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
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      > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities
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      > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.
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      > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
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      > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
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      > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
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      > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
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      > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
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      > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
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      > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
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      > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
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      > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
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      > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
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      > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
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      > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
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      > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
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      > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
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      > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
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      > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
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      > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
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      > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
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      > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
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      > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
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      > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
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      > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
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      > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
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      > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
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      > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
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      > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
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      > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
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      > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
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      > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
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      > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
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      > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
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      > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
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      > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
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      > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
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      > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
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      > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
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      > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
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      > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
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      > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
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      > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
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      > > > > Ollie Perry
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Billy Wickmen
      I wonder if Ice Cream could fuel a vehicle? ... From: Forbes Black Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 9 5:14 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        I wonder if Ice Cream could fuel a vehicle?

        --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Forbes Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:

        From: Forbes Black <diarmaede@...>
        Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
        To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 11:35 PM







         









        I've been watching from a distance.  You kids have been playing nicely.  You all get extra icecream for dessert.

         

        Cheers,



        Forbes



        --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:



        From: Dave <davenevland@...>

        Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

        To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

        Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 2:32 PM



         



        That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way less significant than this.



        --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:

        >

        > Dave

        >

        > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with copying and pasting.

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        >

        > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:

        >

        > From: Dave <davenevland@...>

        > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

        > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

        > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM

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        > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.

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        > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!

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        > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:

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        > > From: Dave <davenevland@>

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        > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

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        > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

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        > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 

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        > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 

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        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.

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        > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:

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        > > > Dave,

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        > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.

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        > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.

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        > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.

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        > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.

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        >

        > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:

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        > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>

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        > >

        >

        > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

        >

        > >

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        > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

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        > >

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        > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM

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        > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague

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        > > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?

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        > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:

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        > > > > Ollie,

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        > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans

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        > > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula

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        > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for

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        > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will

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        > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until

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        > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on

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        > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet

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        > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.

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        > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.

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        > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.

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        >

        > > > > -----Original Message-----

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        > > >

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        > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

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        > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry

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        > > >

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        > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM

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        > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW

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        > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities

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        > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.

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        > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded

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        > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not

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        > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway

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        > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become

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        > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting

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        > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric

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        > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness

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        > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain

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        > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have

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        > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to

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        > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,

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        > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer

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        > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the

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        > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the

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        > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of

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        > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.

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        > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of

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        > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful

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        > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and

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        > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even

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        > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even

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        > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge

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        > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to

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        > >

        >

        > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us

        >

        > >

        >

        > > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even

        >

        > >

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside

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        > >

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.

        >

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        > > >

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        > >

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        > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an

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        > > >

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        > >

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        > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When

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        > > >

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        > >

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        > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.

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        > > >

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        > >

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        > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited

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        > > >

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        > >

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        > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it

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        > > >

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        > >

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        > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.

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        > > >

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        > > > >

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        > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still

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        > > >

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        > >

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        > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.

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        > > >

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        > >

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        > > > >

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        > > >

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        > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.

        >

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        > > >

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        > > > >

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > Ollie Perry

        >

        > >

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        > > >

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        > >

        >

        > > > > EEVC

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Paul Scott
        It fuels my bicycle! Paul ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 9 7:02 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          It fuels my bicycle!

          Paul

          On Jul 9, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Billy Wickmen wrote:

          > I wonder if Ice Cream could fuel a vehicle?
          >
          > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Forbes Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Forbes Black <diarmaede@...>
          > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
          > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
          > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 11:35 PM
          >
          >
          >
          > I've been watching from a distance. You kids have been playing
          > nicely. You all get extra icecream for dessert.
          >
          >
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Forbes
          >
          > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
          >
          > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
          > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
          >
          > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 2:32 PM
          >
          >
          >
          > That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like
          > we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by
          > moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way
          > less significant than this.
          >
          > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
          > <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Dave
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with
          > copying and pasting.
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
          >
          > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
          > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
          >
          > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
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          > > �
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          > > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
          > <wickedbill44@> wrote:
          >
          > >
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          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!
          >
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          > > >
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          > >
          >
          > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
          > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
          >
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          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me
          > when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that
          > is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an
          > agenda.���
          >
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          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
          >
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          > >
          >
          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel"
          > does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and
          > that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated
          > more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to
          > look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions
          > wrong.���
          >
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          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
          >
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          >
          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an
          > underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form
          > over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore. ���
          >
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          >
          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils
          > form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or
          > plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal
          > form a fossil? ���
          >
          > >
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          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils
          > have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs,
          > birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so
          > that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.���
          >
          > >
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          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
          >
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          > > > ���
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          > >
          >
          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to
          > get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body
          > and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that
          > oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are
          > the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green
          > principle, right?���
          >
          > >
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          >
          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
          >
          > >
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          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100
          > mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the
          > technology is more affordable.
          >
          > >
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          > > > ���
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          > >
          >
          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do
          > my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and
          > buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the
          > music that the pied piper is playing���
          >
          > >
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          >
          > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.
          >
          > >
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          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
          > <wickedbill44@> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
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          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > Dave,
          >
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          > > > >
          >
          > >
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          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels.
          > These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
          >
          > >
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          > > >
          >
          > >
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          > > > >
          >
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          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner.
          > We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or
          > vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become
          > more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to
          > meet our demands.�������� Some type of people mover is required and
          > will continue to be.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however
          > be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a
          > vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle
          > (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel
          > could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not
          > readily available for the average driver.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the
          > streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus
          > for the environment.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > ��������
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
          > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > ��������
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know
          > that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do
          > you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it?
          > Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from
          > out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil
          > fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is
          > not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what
          > I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come
          > from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably
          > that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely
          > impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or
          > creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil
          > fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it?
          > Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under
          > some vague
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch
          > of meat-heads?
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron
          > Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Ollie,
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe
          > that Americans
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same
          > simple formula
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the
          > most features for
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model,
          > ICE's will
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is
          > invented or until
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's
          > begin to win on
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward
          > making our planet
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to
          > change things.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of Oliver Perry
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small
          > Electric BMW
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it
          > was recorded
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the
          > ground would not
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the
          > electric highway
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until
          > fossil fuels become
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It
          > is interesting
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on
          > the electric
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the
          > raising of awareness
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said,
          > hydrocarbon fuels contain
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them
          > we would have
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient
          > for nations to
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch
          > to alternatives,
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs
          > and even newer
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible
          > like the
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel
          > world to turn the
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels?
          > The fear of
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the
          > nuclear industry.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least
          > in the minds of
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the
          > most powerful
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly
          > established in the oll and
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle
          > dominance, even
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in
          > coming... even
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system.
          > These huge
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy
          > game is going to
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama
          > who promised us
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White
          > House? Not even
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly
          > table upside
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner
          > hoping that the
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are
          > changing when
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of
          > distributing energy.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that
          > it is still an
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy
          > movement. When
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster
          > pace.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage
          > somebody with limited
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in
          > a company on the
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the
          > company,about
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I
          > invested. But,, I did it
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a
          > risk.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing.
          > But, it is still
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          > > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
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          > > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
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        • Dave
          The energy I expended clicking past the unsnipped portions in this thread would probably power a few vehicles.
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 10 9:29 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            The energy I expended clicking past the unsnipped portions in this thread would probably power a few vehicles.
            >
          • Arcologic@aol.com
            Okay, the bad kid just entered the playground-- Conditions aren t always favorable for forming fossil fuels. And, the details of their formation are not
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 10 3:50 PM
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              Okay, the bad kid just entered the playground--

              Conditions aren't always favorable for forming fossil fuels. And, the details of their formation are not mysterious at all. Coal was largely formed during the Carboniferous Period of the Paleozoic, about 300 million years ago. (Reading from Tarbuck and Lutgens, Earth Science, Prentice-Hall.) The history of any particular coal bed is plainly spelled out in the fossil remains in the coal.

              To get a good understanding of how oil was formed, you might google "anoxic event oil formation." It's quite an interesting story. It has nothing to do with bizzare myths by rednecks about oil forming continuously in the interior of the earth.

              These are truely fossil fuels. When they are all gone, we may become fossils too unless we are very careful.

              There is not nearly enough concern about the world energy situation. About a decade ago, I joined in a forum with the name, "the die-off." They were discussing the potential impact on civilization of a somewhat abrupt end of some traditional energy supplies. The group disbanded about five years ago with the agreement that the time was at hand, and there was nothing left to discuss.

              Ernie Rogers




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Oliver Perry <perrydap@...>
              To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, Jul 9, 2010 4:39 pm
              Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities




              You are most welcome.

              I do understand why the thinkers, who try to figure out how and why things became as they are currently discovered here on our planet, came up with our present fossil fuel theory. Plants (as well as animals) do take carbon out of the air (directly or indirectly) and make cellular structures. So finding large natural deposits of carbon in liquid, solid, and gaseous form tucked away between rock structures lends itself to believing that all of this stuff came from previous plant and animal life. Since we do not find the process of changing from plant and animal tissue to pools of oil or slabs of coal happening in short periods of time it only makes sense to assume the process happens over millions of years. However, new science may shed more light on the likelihood or unlikelihood of this happening the way we thought it did. Methane gas is formed in dumps and waste sites rather quickly. Our understanding of the way things work is constantly evolving... or being refined and enlightened.

              O.H.Perry
              EEVC
              On Jul 9, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Billy Wickmen wrote:

              > Thanks Oliver,
              >
              > It does seem to me that the majority of places we see the term Fossil Fuels used is in forms such as ours.
              >
              > Oil companies are called Oil Companies and not Fossil Fuel Companies.
              >
              > I have consumed my share of Gasoline, Propane, Methane, diesel fuel, and Natural Gas plus Biodiesel, WVO, and Electricity to propel various vehicles. All types of fuel have there draw backs and advantages.
              >
              > Did not intend to P you O Dave or you Oliver I just like to retain a singleness of purpose.
              >
              > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Oliver Perry <perrydap@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: Oliver Perry <perrydap@...>
              > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
              > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:32 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Bill,
              >
              > One cannot be faulted for checking the meaning and accuracy of any information. Too many of us, for fear of being thought ignorant, accept all kinds of information as being accurate without asking for clarification. And we seldom ask for explanations and definitions of both theory and terminology of the things we have not yet learned for ourselves. To pass on ideas that we have neither understood nor verified only adds to the confusion. It is good to review the basics frequently before passing on even the basic assumptions.
              >
              >
              >
              > O.H.Perry
              >
              > EEVC
              >
              > On Jul 8, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >> Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda.
              >
              >>
              >
              >> "Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong.
              >
              >>
              >
              >> What's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore. First, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil? Second, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.
              >
              >>
              >
              >> We really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right?
              >
              >>
              >
              >> I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
              >
              >>
              >
              >> I just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing.
              >
              >>
              >
              >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> Dave,
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands. Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> Â
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> From: Dave <davenevland@...>
              >
              >>> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
              >
              >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >>> Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> Â
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
              >
              >>> politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Ollie,
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> -----Original Message-----
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> for the World's Very Big Cities
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Thanks for the news clipping.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>>
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> Ollie Perry
              >
              >>>
              >
              >>>> EEVC
              >
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              >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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              >>
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              >>
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              >>
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              >>
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              >> ------------------------------------
              >
              >>
              >
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
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              > ------------------------------------
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              > Yahoo! Groups Links
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              >






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