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Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

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  • k9zeh
    Now with BMW joining the electric car bandwagon, the legitimacy of this new generation of transportation powered without fossil fuels is really starting to
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 3, 2010
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      Now with BMW joining the electric car bandwagon, the legitimacy of this new generation of transportation powered without fossil fuels is really starting to take hold. I sure hope it can snowball into a universal mode of power plant design by the end of the decade without needing legislation to happen, but because it just works better.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/automobiles/04MEGACITY.html?_r=1&hpw
    • Oliver Perry
      Thanks for the news clipping. Our nation s lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 5, 2010
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        Thanks for the news clipping.

        Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives, even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry. Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy. Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace. Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.

        I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still a hard sell when considering financial profitability.

        Thanks again for your enthusiasm.

        Ollie Perry
        EEVC




        On Jul 3, 2010, at 1:13 PM, k9zeh wrote:

        > Now with BMW joining the electric car bandwagon, the legitimacy of this new generation of transportation powered without fossil fuels is really starting to take hold. I sure hope it can snowball into a universal mode of power plant design by the end of the decade without needing legislation to happen, but because it just works better.
        >
        > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/automobiles/04MEGACITY.html?_r=1&hpw
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Arcologic@aol.com
        Hello, Rich and others, about EVs and transportation efficiency-- The power plant is only a small part of the source efficiency. There are four major
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 5, 2010
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          Hello, Rich and others, about EVs and transportation efficiency--

          The power plant is only a small part of the source efficiency. There are four major efficiency parts--

          1) Source (power plant, fuel, delivery system)
          2) Load (drag area, rolling resistance, mass, E recovery, idle, passive /active climate and other peripherals, performance compromise)
          3) Infrastructure (pavement, traffic management, ride sharing, clustering /drafting, charging, public systems, parking, city and road design)
          4) Renewability (materials, embedded energy, life, recycling, service, repair and maintenance)

          What did I forget? The truly great future car (vehicle?) will forget nothing.

          Ernie Rogers




          -----Original Message-----
          From: k9zeh <rich@...>
          To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, Jul 3, 2010 11:13 am
          Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities




          Now with BMW joining the electric car bandwagon, the legitimacy of this new generation of transportation powered without fossil fuels is really starting to take hold. I sure hope it can snowball into a universal mode of power plant design by the end of the decade without needing legislation to happen, but because it just works better.

          http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/automobiles/04MEGACITY.html?_r=1&hpw







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dave
          I m all for weening off oil if it will cost less (including environmental costs), but oil is not fuel from fossils, it s not that limited in supply, and it is
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 6, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            I'm all for weening off oil if it will cost less (including environmental costs), but oil is not fuel from fossils, it's not that limited in supply, and it is still being produced in the earth. Let's be careful that our casual references don't perpetuate even more myths.

            Let's produce diesel from algae. That would make us as a nation more independent from countries who want our country destroyed and provide more competition regionally which would bring prices down. Let's make lighter, safer, stronger, more aerodynamic vehicles that use less oil. Those are the same type of vehicles that do well with electric motors and batteries too when that technology becomes more affordable. That's what I'm doing.

            --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Oliver Perry <perrydap@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the news clipping.
            >
            > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives, even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry. Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy. Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace. Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
            >
            > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
            >
            > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
            >
            > Ollie Perry
            > EEVC
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Jul 3, 2010, at 1:13 PM, k9zeh wrote:
            >
            > > Now with BMW joining the electric car bandwagon, the legitimacy of this new generation of transportation powered without fossil fuels is really starting to take hold. I sure hope it can snowball into a universal mode of power plant design by the end of the decade without needing legislation to happen, but because it just works better.
            > >
            > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/automobiles/04MEGACITY.html?_r=1&hpw
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Oliver Perry
            Good point. I especially like your comment, Let s be careful that our casual references don t perpetuate even more myths. Over the years I have passed on
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 6, 2010
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              Good point. I especially like your comment, " Let's be careful that our casual references don't perpetuate even more myths." Over the years I have passed on information that I thought was accurate simply because it was politically correct and accepted by the mainstream.

              O.H.Perry
              EEVC
              On Jul 6, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Dave wrote:

              > I'm all for weening off oil if it will cost less (including environmental costs), but oil is not fuel from fossils, it's not that limited in supply, and it is still being produced in the earth. Let's be careful that our casual references don't perpetuate even more myths.
              >
              > Let's produce diesel from algae. That would make us as a nation more independent from countries who want our country destroyed and provide more competition regionally which would bring prices down. Let's make lighter, safer, stronger, more aerodynamic vehicles that use less oil. Those are the same type of vehicles that do well with electric motors and batteries too when that technology becomes more affordable. That's what I'm doing.
              >
              > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Oliver Perry <perrydap@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Thanks for the news clipping.
              >>
              >> Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives, even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the Chernoble nuclear
              > accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry. Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside down. He is just another small player si
              > tting on the corner hoping that the dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy. Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace. Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
              >>
              >> I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
              >>
              >> Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
              >>
              >> Ollie Perry
              >> EEVC
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> On Jul 3, 2010, at 1:13 PM, k9zeh wrote:
              >>
              >>> Now with BMW joining the electric car bandwagon, the legitimacy of this new generation of transportation powered without fossil fuels is really starting to take hold. I sure hope it can snowball into a universal mode of power plant design by the end of the decade without needing legislation to happen, but because it just works better.
              >>>
              >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/automobiles/04MEGACITY.html?_r=1&hpw
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> ------------------------------------
              >>>
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Ron Cochran
              Ollie, I m sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 6, 2010
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                Ollie,

                I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.

                Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.

                R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                for the World's Very Big Cities

                Thanks for the news clipping.

                Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.

                I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                a hard sell when considering financial profitability.

                Thanks again for your enthusiasm.

                Ollie Perry
                EEVC
              • Dave
                Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term fossil
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 7, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?

                  --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ollie,
                  >
                  > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                  > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                  > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                  > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                  > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                  > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                  > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                  > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
                  >
                  > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                  >
                  > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                  > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                  > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                  > for the World's Very Big Cities
                  >
                  > Thanks for the news clipping.
                  >
                  > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                  > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                  > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                  > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                  > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                  > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                  > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                  > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                  > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                  > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                  > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                  > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                  > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                  > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                  > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                  > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                  > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                  > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                  > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                  > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                  > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                  > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                  > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                  > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                  > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                  > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                  > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                  > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                  > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                  > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                  > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                  > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                  > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                  > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                  > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                  > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                  > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
                  >
                  > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                  > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                  >
                  > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                  >
                  > Ollie Perry
                  > EEVC
                  >
                • Oliver Perry
                  Page 93 Heath Earth Science published by McDougal Littell in 1994: Coal, petroleum, and natural gas are called FOSSIL FUELS because they formed from the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 7, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Page 93 Heath Earth Science published by McDougal Littell in 1994:

                    "Coal, petroleum, and natural gas are called FOSSIL FUELS because they formed from the remains of plants and animals that lived long ago." The accepted traditional understanding of how coal is formed ( which has been taught in our public school science classes for over 100 years) is that dead plants lose most of their hydrogen and oxygen over the ages as they are squeezed by tremendous pressure under the ground. First peat is formed, then (they say) after millions of years of more pressure the peat gradually becomes coal. The word petroleum means rock oil. Scientists think that petroleum was made by slow chemical changes in plant and animal materials buried under sand and clay in shallow in coastal waters. Some of the hydrocarbons formed were gases and others liquids. The gases and liquids were squeezed into the pores of nearby rock formations and some got trapped... the rest rose to the surface and escaped."

                    Simply put, fossil fuels are OLD... like plant and animal fossils. Oil and gas do not come from fossils but rather the oil and coal were formed under the same conditions as fossils and most likely believed to be from the same period of time.

                    I have read recently that our age old accepted theory of how coal and oil are formed is theoretical and that perhaps the process does not take millions of years as has been taught. Maybe somebody in our chat list can do some research and update us on the latest accepted theories.

                    Thanks for the question and stimulating our minds.

                    O.H.Perry
                    EEVC


                    On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:29 AM, Dave wrote:

                    > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague politically-charged phrase like "fossil fu
                    > els"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
                    >
                    > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Ollie,
                    >>
                    >> I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                    >> will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                    >> that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                    >> the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                    >> continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                    >> (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                    >> cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                    >> unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
                    >>
                    >> Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                    >>
                    >> R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                    >> [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                    >> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                    >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                    >> for the World's Very Big Cities
                    >>
                    >> Thanks for the news clipping.
                    >>
                    >> Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                    >> that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                    >> be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                    >> will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                    >> so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                    >> that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                    >> bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                    >> for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                    >> so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                    >> invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                    >> clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                    >> even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                    >> technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                    >> Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                    >> masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                    >> radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                    >> Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                    >> the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                    >> companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                    >> coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                    >> in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                    >> though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                    >> powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                    >> be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                    >> change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                    >> Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                    >> down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                    >> dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                    >> large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                    >> Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                    >> economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                    >> the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                    >> Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                    >> resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                    >> advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                    >> 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                    >> because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
                    >>
                    >> I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                    >> a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                    >>
                    >> Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                    >>
                    >> Ollie Perry
                    >> EEVC
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Billy Wickmen
                    Dave, It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all. Most cities are built around the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 7, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dave,

                      It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.

                      Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.

                      The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.

                      The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.

                       

                      --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:

                      From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                      Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                      To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM







                       









                      Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
                      politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?



                      --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > Ollie,

                      >

                      > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans

                      > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula

                      > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for

                      > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will

                      > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until

                      > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on

                      > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet

                      > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.

                      >

                      > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.

                      >

                      > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.

                      >

                      >

                      > -----Original Message-----

                      > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                      > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry

                      > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM

                      > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                      > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW

                      > for the World's Very Big Cities

                      >

                      > Thanks for the news clipping.

                      >

                      > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded

                      > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not

                      > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway

                      > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become

                      > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting

                      > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric

                      > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness

                      > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain

                      > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have

                      > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to

                      > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,

                      > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer

                      > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the

                      > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the

                      > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of

                      > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.

                      > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of

                      > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful

                      > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and

                      > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even

                      > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even

                      > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge

                      > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to

                      > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us

                      > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even

                      > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside

                      > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the

                      > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when

                      > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.

                      > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an

                      > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When

                      > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.

                      > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited

                      > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the

                      > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about

                      > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it

                      > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.

                      >

                      > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still

                      > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.

                      >

                      > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.

                      >

                      > Ollie Perry

                      > EEVC

                      >

























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dave
                      Yeah, you re right. It doesn t matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I m being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 8, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda.

                        "Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong.

                        What's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore. First, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil? Second, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.

                        We really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right?

                        I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.

                        I just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing.

                        --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dave,
                        >
                        > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
                        >
                        > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
                        >
                        > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
                        >
                        > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                        > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                        > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
                        > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Ollie,
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                        >
                        > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                        >
                        > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                        >
                        > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                        >
                        > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                        >
                        > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                        >
                        > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                        >
                        > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        >
                        > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                        >
                        > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                        >
                        > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                        >
                        > > for the World's Very Big Cities
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Thanks for the news clipping.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                        >
                        > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                        >
                        > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                        >
                        > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                        >
                        > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                        >
                        > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                        >
                        > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                        >
                        > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                        >
                        > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                        >
                        > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                        >
                        > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                        >
                        > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                        >
                        > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                        >
                        > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                        >
                        > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                        >
                        > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                        >
                        > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                        >
                        > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                        >
                        > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                        >
                        > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                        >
                        > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                        >
                        > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                        >
                        > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                        >
                        > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                        >
                        > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                        >
                        > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                        >
                        > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                        >
                        > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                        >
                        > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                        >
                        > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                        >
                        > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                        >
                        > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                        >
                        > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                        >
                        > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                        >
                        > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                        >
                        > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                        >
                        > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                        >
                        > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Ollie Perry
                        >
                        > > EEVC
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Billy Wickmen
                          Yeah, you re right. It doesn t matter that much! ... From: Dave Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 8, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                           









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!

                          --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:

                          From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                          Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                          To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM







                           









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much










                           









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much










                           









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much










                           









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much



                          I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.










                           









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 









                          Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.



                          --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:

                          >

                          > Dave,

                          >

                          > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.

                          >

                          > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.

                          >

                          > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.

                          >

                          > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.

                          >

                          >  

                          >

                          > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:

                          >

                          > From: Dave <davenevland@...>

                          > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

                          > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                          > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >  

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague

                          > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > Ollie,

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans

                          >

                          > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula

                          >

                          > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for

                          >

                          > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will

                          >

                          > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until

                          >

                          > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on

                          >

                          > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet

                          >

                          > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > -----Original Message-----

                          >

                          > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                          >

                          > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry

                          >

                          > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM

                          >

                          > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                          >

                          > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW

                          >

                          > > for the World's Very Big Cities

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > Thanks for the news clipping.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded

                          >

                          > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not

                          >

                          > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway

                          >

                          > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become

                          >

                          > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting

                          >

                          > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric

                          >

                          > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness

                          >

                          > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain

                          >

                          > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have

                          >

                          > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to

                          >

                          > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,

                          >

                          > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer

                          >

                          > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the

                          >

                          > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the

                          >

                          > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of

                          >

                          > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.

                          >

                          > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of

                          >

                          > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful

                          >

                          > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and

                          >

                          > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even

                          >

                          > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even

                          >

                          > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge

                          >

                          > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to

                          >

                          > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us

                          >

                          > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even

                          >

                          > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside

                          >

                          > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the

                          >

                          > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when

                          >

                          > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.

                          >

                          > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an

                          >

                          > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When

                          >

                          > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.

                          >

                          > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited

                          >

                          > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the

                          >

                          > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about

                          >

                          > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it

                          >

                          > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still

                          >

                          > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          > > Ollie Perry

                          >

                          > > EEVC

                          >

                          > >

                          >

                          >

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                        • Dave
                          Sorry, didn t mean to get under your skin.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.

                            --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!
                            >
                            > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                            > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                            > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Dave,
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >  
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
                            >
                            > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                            >
                            > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >  
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
                            >
                            > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Ollie,
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > for the World's Very Big Cities
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Thanks for the news clipping.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Ollie Perry
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > EEVC
                            >
                            > >
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                            > > >
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                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Oliver Perry
                            Bill, One cannot be faulted for checking the meaning and accuracy of any information. Too many of us, for fear of being thought ignorant, accept all kinds of
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Bill,
                              One cannot be faulted for checking the meaning and accuracy of any information. Too many of us, for fear of being thought ignorant, accept all kinds of information as being accurate without asking for clarification. And we seldom ask for explanations and definitions of both theory and terminology of the things we have not yet learned for ourselves. To pass on ideas that we have neither understood nor verified only adds to the confusion. It is good to review the basics frequently before passing on even the basic assumptions.

                              O.H.Perry
                              EEVC
                              On Jul 8, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:

                              > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda.
                              >
                              > "Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong.
                              >
                              > What's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore. First, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil? Second, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.
                              >
                              > We really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right?
                              >
                              > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
                              >
                              > I just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing.
                              >
                              > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >> Dave,
                              >>
                              >> It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
                              >>
                              >> Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands. Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
                              >>
                              >> The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
                              >>
                              >> The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
                              >>
                              >> Â
                              >>
                              >> --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >> From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                              >> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                              >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                              >> Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Â
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
                              >> politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> Ollie,
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                              >>
                              >>> will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                              >>
                              >>> that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                              >>
                              >>> the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                              >>
                              >>> continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                              >>
                              >>> (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                              >>
                              >>> cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                              >>
                              >>> unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> -----Original Message-----
                              >>
                              >>> From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                              >>
                              >>> [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                              >>
                              >>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                              >>
                              >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                              >>
                              >>> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                              >>
                              >>> for the World's Very Big Cities
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> Thanks for the news clipping.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                              >>
                              >>> that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                              >>
                              >>> be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                              >>
                              >>> will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                              >>
                              >>> so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                              >>
                              >>> that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                              >>
                              >>> bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                              >>
                              >>> for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                              >>
                              >>> so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                              >>
                              >>> invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                              >>
                              >>> clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                              >>
                              >>> even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                              >>
                              >>> technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                              >>
                              >>> Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                              >>
                              >>> masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                              >>
                              >>> radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                              >>
                              >>> Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                              >>
                              >>> the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                              >>
                              >>> companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                              >>
                              >>> coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                              >>
                              >>> in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                              >>
                              >>> though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                              >>
                              >>> powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                              >>
                              >>> be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                              >>
                              >>> change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                              >>
                              >>> Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                              >>
                              >>> down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                              >>
                              >>> dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                              >>
                              >>> large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                              >>
                              >>> Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                              >>
                              >>> economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                              >>
                              >>> the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                              >>
                              >>> Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                              >>
                              >>> resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                              >>
                              >>> advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                              >>
                              >>> 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                              >>
                              >>> because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                              >>
                              >>> a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>> Ollie Perry
                              >>
                              >>> EEVC
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Billy Wickmen
                              Thanks Oliver, It does seem to me that the majority of places we see the term Fossil Fuels used is in forms such as ours. Oil companies are called Oil
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks Oliver,

                                It does seem to me that the majority of places we see the term Fossil Fuels used is in forms such as ours.

                                Oil companies are called Oil Companies and not Fossil Fuel Companies.

                                I have consumed my share of Gasoline, Propane, Methane, diesel fuel, and Natural Gas plus Biodiesel, WVO, and Electricity to propel various vehicles. All types of fuel have there draw backs and advantages.

                                Did not intend to P you O Dave or you Oliver I just like to retain a singleness of purpose.

                                --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Oliver Perry <perrydap@...> wrote:

                                From: Oliver Perry <perrydap@...>
                                Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:32 PM







                                 









                                Bill,

                                One cannot be faulted for checking the meaning and accuracy of any information. Too many of us, for fear of being thought ignorant, accept all kinds of information as being accurate without asking for clarification. And we seldom ask for explanations and definitions of both theory and terminology of the things we have not yet learned for ourselves. To pass on ideas that we have neither understood nor verified only adds to the confusion. It is good to review the basics frequently before passing on even the basic assumptions.



                                O.H.Perry

                                EEVC

                                On Jul 8, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:



                                > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda.

                                >

                                > "Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong.

                                >

                                > What's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore. First, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil? Second, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.

                                >

                                > We really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right?

                                >

                                > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.

                                >

                                > I just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing.

                                >

                                > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:

                                >>

                                >> Dave,

                                >>

                                >> It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.

                                >>

                                >> Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands. Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.

                                >>

                                >> The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.

                                >>

                                >> The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.

                                >>

                                >> Â

                                >>

                                >> --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:

                                >>

                                >> From: Dave <davenevland@...>

                                >> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

                                >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                >> Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >> Â

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >> Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague

                                >> politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> Ollie,

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans

                                >>

                                >>> will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula

                                >>

                                >>> that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for

                                >>

                                >>> the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will

                                >>

                                >>> continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until

                                >>

                                >>> (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on

                                >>

                                >>> cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet

                                >>

                                >>> unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> -----Original Message-----

                                >>

                                >>> From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                >>

                                >>> [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry

                                >>

                                >>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM

                                >>

                                >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                >>

                                >>> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW

                                >>

                                >>> for the World's Very Big Cities

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> Thanks for the news clipping.

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded

                                >>

                                >>> that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not

                                >>

                                >>> be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway

                                >>

                                >>> will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become

                                >>

                                >>> so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting

                                >>

                                >>> that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric

                                >>

                                >>> bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness

                                >>

                                >>> for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain

                                >>

                                >>> so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have

                                >>

                                >>> invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to

                                >>

                                >>> clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,

                                >>

                                >>> even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer

                                >>

                                >>> technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the

                                >>

                                >>> Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the

                                >>

                                >>> masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of

                                >>

                                >>> radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.

                                >>

                                >>> Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of

                                >>

                                >>> the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful

                                >>

                                >>> companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and

                                >>

                                >>> coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even

                                >>

                                >>> in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even

                                >>

                                >>> though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge

                                >>

                                >>> powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to

                                >>

                                >>> be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us

                                >>

                                >>> change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even

                                >>

                                >>> Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside

                                >>

                                >>> down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the

                                >>

                                >>> dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when

                                >>

                                >>> large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.

                                >>

                                >>> Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an

                                >>

                                >>> economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When

                                >>

                                >>> the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.

                                >>

                                >>> Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited

                                >>

                                >>> resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the

                                >>

                                >>> advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about

                                >>

                                >>> 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it

                                >>

                                >>> because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still

                                >>

                                >>> a hard sell when considering financial profitability.

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> Thanks again for your enthusiasm.

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>> Ollie Perry

                                >>

                                >>> EEVC

                                >>

                                >>>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >>

                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                >>

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > ------------------------------------

                                >

                                > Yahoo! Groups Links

                                >

                                >

                                >























                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Billy Wickmen
                                Dave Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with copying and pasting. ... From: Dave Subject:
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dave

                                  Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with copying and pasting.



                                  --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:

                                  From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                                  Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                  To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM







                                   









                                  Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.



                                  --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >  

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!

                                  >

                                  > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:

                                  >

                                  > From: Dave <davenevland@...>

                                  > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

                                  > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                  > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >  

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >  

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >  

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >  

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >  

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > Dave,

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >  

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > From: Dave <davenevland@>

                                  >

                                  > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

                                  >

                                  > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                  >

                                  > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >  

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague

                                  >

                                  > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Ollie,

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > -----Original Message-----

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > for the World's Very Big Cities

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

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                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Thanks for the news clipping.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

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                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the

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                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of

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                                  > >

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                                  > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.

                                  >

                                  > >

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                                  > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > >

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > Ollie Perry

                                  >

                                  > >

                                  >

                                  > > > EEVC

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                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Dave
                                  That s cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like we have a good moderator. I ve been kicked off a couple groups by moderators who get
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way less significant than this.

                                    --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dave
                                    >
                                    > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with copying and pasting.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                                    > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                    > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM
                                    >
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                                    > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.
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                                    >
                                    > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!
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                                    >
                                    > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
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                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
                                    >
                                    > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                    >
                                    > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                    > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 
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                                    > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.
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                                    >
                                    > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
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                                    > > > Dave,
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                                    > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
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                                    > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
                                    >
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                                    > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
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                                    > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
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                                    > > >  
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                                    >
                                    > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
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                                    > > >
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                                    >
                                    > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
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                                    > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
                                    >
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                                    > > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
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                                    >
                                    > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
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                                    > > > > Ollie,
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                                    > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
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                                    > > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
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                                    > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
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                                    > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
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                                    > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
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                                    > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
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                                    > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
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                                    > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
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                                    > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
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                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
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                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
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                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
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                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Ollie Perry
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
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                                    > >
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                                    > > > > EEVC
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                                  • Oliver Perry
                                    You are most welcome. I do understand why the thinkers, who try to figure out how and why things became as they are currently discovered here on our planet,
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      You are most welcome.

                                      I do understand why the thinkers, who try to figure out how and why things became as they are currently discovered here on our planet, came up with our present fossil fuel theory. Plants (as well as animals) do take carbon out of the air (directly or indirectly) and make cellular structures. So finding large natural deposits of carbon in liquid, solid, and gaseous form tucked away between rock structures lends itself to believing that all of this stuff came from previous plant and animal life. Since we do not find the process of changing from plant and animal tissue to pools of oil or slabs of coal happening in short periods of time it only makes sense to assume the process happens over millions of years. However, new science may shed more light on the likelihood or unlikelihood of this happening the way we thought it did. Methane gas is formed in dumps and waste sites rather quickly. Our understanding of the way things work is constantly evolving... or being refined and enlightened.

                                      O.H.Perry
                                      EEVC
                                      On Jul 9, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Billy Wickmen wrote:

                                      > Thanks Oliver,
                                      >
                                      > It does seem to me that the majority of places we see the term Fossil Fuels used is in forms such as ours.
                                      >
                                      > Oil companies are called Oil Companies and not Fossil Fuel Companies.
                                      >
                                      > I have consumed my share of Gasoline, Propane, Methane, diesel fuel, and Natural Gas plus Biodiesel, WVO, and Electricity to propel various vehicles. All types of fuel have there draw backs and advantages.
                                      >
                                      > Did not intend to P you O Dave or you Oliver I just like to retain a singleness of purpose.
                                      >
                                      > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Oliver Perry <perrydap@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > From: Oliver Perry <perrydap@...>
                                      > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                      > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:32 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Bill,
                                      >
                                      > One cannot be faulted for checking the meaning and accuracy of any information. Too many of us, for fear of being thought ignorant, accept all kinds of information as being accurate without asking for clarification. And we seldom ask for explanations and definitions of both theory and terminology of the things we have not yet learned for ourselves. To pass on ideas that we have neither understood nor verified only adds to the confusion. It is good to review the basics frequently before passing on even the basic assumptions.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > O.H.Perry
                                      >
                                      > EEVC
                                      >
                                      > On Jul 8, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda.
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> "Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong.
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> What's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore. First, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil? Second, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> We really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right?
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> I just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing.
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> Dave,
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands. Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> Â
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                                      >
                                      >>> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                      >
                                      >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >>> Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> Â
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
                                      >
                                      >>> politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Ollie,
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> -----Original Message-----
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> for the World's Very Big Cities
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Thanks for the news clipping.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>>
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> Ollie Perry
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>>> EEVC
                                      >
                                      >>>
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                                      >>>>
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                                      >>>
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                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >>
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                                      >>
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                                      >>
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                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Forbes Black
                                      I ve been watching from a distance.  You kids have been playing nicely.  You all get extra icecream for dessert.   Cheers, Forbes ... From: Dave
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I've been watching from a distance.  You kids have been playing nicely.  You all get extra icecream for dessert.
                                         
                                        Cheers,

                                        Forbes

                                        --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:


                                        From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                                        Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                        To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 2:32 PM


                                         



                                        That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way less significant than this.

                                        --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dave
                                        >
                                        > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with copying and pasting.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                                        > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                        > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >  
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                                        >
                                        > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
                                        >
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
                                        >
                                        > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                        >
                                        > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
                                        >
                                        > >
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                                        >
                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 
                                        >
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 
                                        >
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 
                                        >
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                        > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 
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                                        > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.
                                        >
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                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        > > > Dave,
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
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                                        > >
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                                        > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
                                        >
                                        > >
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                                        > > >
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                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >  
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
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                                        > > >
                                        >
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                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > >
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                                        > > > > Ollie,
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
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                                        >
                                        > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
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                                        > > > >
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                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > >
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        > > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities
                                        >
                                        > >
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                                        > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.
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                                        > > > >
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                                        > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
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                                        > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
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                                        > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                                        >
                                        > >
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                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
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                                        > >
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                                        > > >
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                                        > >
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                                        > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
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                                        > >
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                                        > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
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                                        > > >
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                                        > >
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                                        > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
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                                        > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
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                                        > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
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                                        > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
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                                        > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
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                                        > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
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                                        > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
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                                        > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
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                                        > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
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                                        > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
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                                        > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
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                                        > > >
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                                        > >
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                                        > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
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                                        > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
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                                        > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
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                                        > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
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                                        > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
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                                        > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
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                                        > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
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                                        > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
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                                        > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
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                                        > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
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                                        > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
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                                        > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
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                                        > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
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                                        > > > >
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                                        > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
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                                        > > > > Ollie Perry
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                                        > > > > EEVC
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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Billy Wickmen
                                        I wonder if Ice Cream could fuel a vehicle? ... From: Forbes Black Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I wonder if Ice Cream could fuel a vehicle?

                                          --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Forbes Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:

                                          From: Forbes Black <diarmaede@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                          To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 11:35 PM







                                           









                                          I've been watching from a distance.  You kids have been playing nicely.  You all get extra icecream for dessert.

                                           

                                          Cheers,



                                          Forbes



                                          --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:



                                          From: Dave <davenevland@...>

                                          Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

                                          To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                          Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 2:32 PM



                                           



                                          That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way less significant than this.



                                          --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:

                                          >

                                          > Dave

                                          >

                                          > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with copying and pasting.

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:

                                          >

                                          > From: Dave <davenevland@...>

                                          > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

                                          > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                          > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM

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                                          > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.

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                                          > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!

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                                          > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > From: Dave <davenevland@>

                                          >

                                          > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

                                          >

                                          > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                          >

                                          > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much

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                                          > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 

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                                          > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.

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                                          > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:

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                                          > > > Dave,

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                                          > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.

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                                          > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.

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                                          > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.

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                                          > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.

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                                          >

                                          > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:

                                          >

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                                          > > >

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM

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                                          >

                                          > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?

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                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > >

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                                          > > > >

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                                          > > >

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                                          >

                                          > > > > Ollie,

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > >

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                                          > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula

                                          >

                                          > >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for

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                                          > > >

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                                          > >

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                                          > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > >

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until

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                                          > > >

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                                          >

                                          > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on

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                                          > > >

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                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet

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                                          > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.

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                                          > > > >

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                                          > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.

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                                          > > > >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.

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                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > -----Original Message-----

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > >

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > >

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > >

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM

                                          >

                                          > >

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                                          >

                                          > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > >

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > >

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                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities

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                                          >

                                          > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.

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                                          > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded

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                                          > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not

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                                          > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become

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                                          > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting

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                                          > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > >

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness

                                          >

                                          > >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > >

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                                          > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain

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                                          > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have

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                                          > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to

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                                          > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,

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                                          > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer

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                                          > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the

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                                          > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the

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                                          > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of

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                                          > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.

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                                          > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of

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                                          > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful

                                          >

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                                          > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and

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                                          > > >

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                                          > >

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                                          > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even

                                          >

                                          > >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even

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                                          > > >

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                                          > >

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                                          > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge

                                          >

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                                          > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to

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                                          > > >

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                                          > >

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                                          > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us

                                          >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even

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                                          > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the

                                          >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > >

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                                          > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when

                                          >

                                          > >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.

                                          >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.

                                          >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited

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                                          > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about

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                                          > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it

                                          >

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                                          > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.

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                                          > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still

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                                          > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.

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                                          > > > >

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                                          >

                                          > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.

                                          >

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                                          > >

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                                          > > > >

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                                          > >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > >

                                          >

                                          > > > > Ollie Perry

                                          >

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                                          > > >

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                                          > > > > EEVC

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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Paul Scott
                                          It fuels my bicycle! Paul ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jul 9, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            It fuels my bicycle!

                                            Paul

                                            On Jul 9, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Billy Wickmen wrote:

                                            > I wonder if Ice Cream could fuel a vehicle?
                                            >
                                            > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Forbes Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > From: Forbes Black <diarmaede@...>
                                            > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
                                            > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                            > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 11:35 PM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I've been watching from a distance. You kids have been playing
                                            > nicely. You all get extra icecream for dessert.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Cheers,
                                            >
                                            > Forbes
                                            >
                                            > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                                            >
                                            > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
                                            > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                            >
                                            > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 2:32 PM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like
                                            > we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by
                                            > moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way
                                            > less significant than this.
                                            >
                                            > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
                                            > <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > Dave
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with
                                            > copying and pasting.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                                            >
                                            > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
                                            > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                            >
                                            > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > >
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                                            > >
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                                            > > �
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                                            >
                                            > > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
                                            > <wickedbill44@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
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                                            > > > ���
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
                                            > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me
                                            > when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that
                                            > is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an
                                            > agenda.���
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                            >
                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel"
                                            > does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and
                                            > that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated
                                            > more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to
                                            > look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions
                                            > wrong.���
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an
                                            > underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form
                                            > over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore. ���
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils
                                            > form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or
                                            > plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal
                                            > form a fossil? ���
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils
                                            > have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs,
                                            > birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so
                                            > that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.���
                                            >
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to
                                            > get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body
                                            > and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that
                                            > oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are
                                            > the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green
                                            > principle, right?���
                                            >
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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                                            > > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100
                                            > mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the
                                            > technology is more affordable.
                                            >
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                                            > > > ���
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                                            >
                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do
                                            > my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and
                                            > buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the
                                            > music that the pied piper is playing���
                                            >
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                                            > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
                                            > <wickedbill44@> wrote:
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > > > > Dave,
                                            >
                                            > >
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                                            > > >
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                                            > > > >
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                                            >
                                            > > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels.
                                            > These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
                                            >
                                            > >
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                                            > > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner.
                                            > We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or
                                            > vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become
                                            > more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to
                                            > meet our demands.�������� Some type of people mover is required and
                                            > will continue to be.
                                            >
                                            > >
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                                            > > > >
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                                            >
                                            > > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however
                                            > be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a
                                            > vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle
                                            > (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel
                                            > could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not
                                            > readily available for the average driver.
                                            >
                                            > >
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                                            >
                                            > > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the
                                            > streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus
                                            > for the environment.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
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                                            > > > >
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                                            > > > > ��������
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                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
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                                            >
                                            > > > >
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                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
                                            > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
                                            >
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                                            > > > > ��������
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                                            >
                                            > > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know
                                            > that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do
                                            > you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it?
                                            > Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from
                                            > out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil
                                            > fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is
                                            > not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what
                                            > I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come
                                            > from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably
                                            > that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely
                                            > impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or
                                            > creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil
                                            > fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it?
                                            > Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under
                                            > some vague
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch
                                            > of meat-heads?
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron
                                            > Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > > > > > Ollie,
                                            >
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                                            > > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe
                                            > that Americans
                                            >
                                            > >
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                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same
                                            > simple formula
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the
                                            > most features for
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model,
                                            > ICE's will
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is
                                            > invented or until
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's
                                            > begin to win on
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward
                                            > making our planet
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to
                                            > change things.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                            > Of Oliver Perry
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small
                                            > Electric BMW
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it
                                            > was recorded
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the
                                            > ground would not
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the
                                            > electric highway
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until
                                            > fossil fuels become
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It
                                            > is interesting
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on
                                            > the electric
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the
                                            > raising of awareness
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said,
                                            > hydrocarbon fuels contain
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them
                                            > we would have
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient
                                            > for nations to
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch
                                            > to alternatives,
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs
                                            > and even newer
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible
                                            > like the
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel
                                            > world to turn the
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels?
                                            > The fear of
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the
                                            > nuclear industry.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least
                                            > in the minds of
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the
                                            > most powerful
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly
                                            > established in the oll and
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle
                                            > dominance, even
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in
                                            > coming... even
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system.
                                            > These huge
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy
                                            > game is going to
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama
                                            > who promised us
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White
                                            > House? Not even
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly
                                            > table upside
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner
                                            > hoping that the
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are
                                            > changing when
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of
                                            > distributing energy.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that
                                            > it is still an
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy
                                            > movement. When
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster
                                            > pace.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage
                                            > somebody with limited
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in
                                            > a company on the
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the
                                            > company,about
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I
                                            > invested. But,, I did it
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a
                                            > risk.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing.
                                            > But, it is still
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > Ollie Perry
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > > EEVC
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            >
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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Dave
                                            The energy I expended clicking past the unsnipped portions in this thread would probably power a few vehicles.
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jul 10, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              The energy I expended clicking past the unsnipped portions in this thread would probably power a few vehicles.
                                              >
                                            • Arcologic@aol.com
                                              Okay, the bad kid just entered the playground-- Conditions aren t always favorable for forming fossil fuels. And, the details of their formation are not
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jul 10, 2010
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                                                Okay, the bad kid just entered the playground--

                                                Conditions aren't always favorable for forming fossil fuels. And, the details of their formation are not mysterious at all. Coal was largely formed during the Carboniferous Period of the Paleozoic, about 300 million years ago. (Reading from Tarbuck and Lutgens, Earth Science, Prentice-Hall.) The history of any particular coal bed is plainly spelled out in the fossil remains in the coal.

                                                To get a good understanding of how oil was formed, you might google "anoxic event oil formation." It's quite an interesting story. It has nothing to do with bizzare myths by rednecks about oil forming continuously in the interior of the earth.

                                                These are truely fossil fuels. When they are all gone, we may become fossils too unless we are very careful.

                                                There is not nearly enough concern about the world energy situation. About a decade ago, I joined in a forum with the name, "the die-off." They were discussing the potential impact on civilization of a somewhat abrupt end of some traditional energy supplies. The group disbanded about five years ago with the agreement that the time was at hand, and there was nothing left to discuss.

                                                Ernie Rogers




                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Oliver Perry <perrydap@...>
                                                To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Fri, Jul 9, 2010 4:39 pm
                                                Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities




                                                You are most welcome.

                                                I do understand why the thinkers, who try to figure out how and why things became as they are currently discovered here on our planet, came up with our present fossil fuel theory. Plants (as well as animals) do take carbon out of the air (directly or indirectly) and make cellular structures. So finding large natural deposits of carbon in liquid, solid, and gaseous form tucked away between rock structures lends itself to believing that all of this stuff came from previous plant and animal life. Since we do not find the process of changing from plant and animal tissue to pools of oil or slabs of coal happening in short periods of time it only makes sense to assume the process happens over millions of years. However, new science may shed more light on the likelihood or unlikelihood of this happening the way we thought it did. Methane gas is formed in dumps and waste sites rather quickly. Our understanding of the way things work is constantly evolving... or being refined and enlightened.

                                                O.H.Perry
                                                EEVC
                                                On Jul 9, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Billy Wickmen wrote:

                                                > Thanks Oliver,
                                                >
                                                > It does seem to me that the majority of places we see the term Fossil Fuels used is in forms such as ours.
                                                >
                                                > Oil companies are called Oil Companies and not Fossil Fuel Companies.
                                                >
                                                > I have consumed my share of Gasoline, Propane, Methane, diesel fuel, and Natural Gas plus Biodiesel, WVO, and Electricity to propel various vehicles. All types of fuel have there draw backs and advantages.
                                                >
                                                > Did not intend to P you O Dave or you Oliver I just like to retain a singleness of purpose.
                                                >
                                                > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Oliver Perry <perrydap@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > From: Oliver Perry <perrydap@...>
                                                > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                                > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:32 PM
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Bill,
                                                >
                                                > One cannot be faulted for checking the meaning and accuracy of any information. Too many of us, for fear of being thought ignorant, accept all kinds of information as being accurate without asking for clarification. And we seldom ask for explanations and definitions of both theory and terminology of the things we have not yet learned for ourselves. To pass on ideas that we have neither understood nor verified only adds to the confusion. It is good to review the basics frequently before passing on even the basic assumptions.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > O.H.Perry
                                                >
                                                > EEVC
                                                >
                                                > On Jul 8, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Dave wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >> Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda.
                                                >
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >> "Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong.
                                                >
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >> What's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore. First, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil? Second, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.
                                                >
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >> We really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right?
                                                >
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >> I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
                                                >
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >> I just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing.
                                                >
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> Dave,
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands. Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> Â
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> From: Dave <davenevland@...>
                                                >
                                                >>> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
                                                >
                                                >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                >>> Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> Â
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
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                                                >>>
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                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
                                                >
                                                >>> politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch of meat-heads?
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>> --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Ollie,
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> will continue to make car decisions according to the same simple formula
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> -----Original Message-----
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> for the World's Very Big Cities
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Thanks for the news clipping.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>>
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> Ollie Perry
                                                >
                                                >>>
                                                >
                                                >>>> EEVC
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                                                >> ------------------------------------
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                                                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                > ------------------------------------
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                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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