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Scoring the Electric Mini Acid Test

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  • k9zeh
    The most interesting pure EV is the Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people who own them. One of the caveats of EV s or PHEV s is that the
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 29, 2010
      The most interesting pure EV is the Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the driving range. Further, batteries are based on a chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees centigrade of ambient temperature.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw
    • Forbes Black
      The most interesting pure EV is the Mini E...   There are many, many Tesla owners and fans who would enthusiastically disagree with this assertion. - Forbes
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 29, 2010
        "The most interesting pure EV is the Mini E..."
         
        There are many, many Tesla owners and fans who would enthusiastically disagree with this assertion.

        - Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA
        Cycloculture - A Journal for Real World Cyclists
        http://cycloculture.com/

        --- On Mon, 3/29/10, k9zeh <rich@...> wrote:


        From: k9zeh <rich@...>
        Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini Acid Test
        To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 1:03 PM


         



        The most interesting pure EV is the Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the driving range. Further, batteries are based on a chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees centigrade of ambient temperature.

        http://www.nytimes com/2010/ 03/28/automobile s/28ELECTRIC. html?hpw








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Arcologic@aol.com
        Hello, Rich, You said, ... Well, wouldn t you agree that the EV1 is at least as interesting? The drag coefficient of the EV1 is Cd = 0.19 Drag coefficient of
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 29, 2010
          Hello, Rich,

          You said,

          > The most interesting pure EV is the Mini E,

          Well, wouldn't you agree that the EV1 is at least as interesting?
          The drag coefficient of the EV1 is Cd = 0.19
          Drag coefficient of the Mini is greater than 0.35.

          I think we need to raise up our standards a bit, although "up" to 10 years
          ago may be too much for some.

          Ernie Rogers


          In a message dated 3/29/2010 2:05:51 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
          rich@... writes:




          The most interesting pure EV is the Mini E, but here are some real life
          experiences of people who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is
          that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the driving range.
          Further, batteries are based on a chemical reaction, and in chemistry we
          learned that rates of reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees
          centigrade of ambient temperature.

          _http://www.nytimes.http://wwhttp://www.nytimhttp://www.nyhttp://w_
          (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw)





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chelsea Sexton
          Agreed that some Tesla owners would beg to differ on the most interesting front, esp given the Mini E cost. But it is a fun little scoot, for sure. We re
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 29, 2010
            Agreed that some Tesla owners would beg to differ on the "most interesting" front, esp given the Mini E cost. But it is a fun little scoot, for sure.
            We're definitely seeing more range reduction in cold wx on the Mini E than in the RAVs or Teslas in the same area (among those who've reported). But more troublesome for the Mini is the lack of charging in truly cold wx- BMW sent out a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F...which encompasses a few months at a stretch in NJ, where 1/2 the cars are. Bad enough to have your range reduced, but if ~70% of commuters drive less than 40 miles/day, then having your range degrade even 30% from normal isn't necessarily catastrophic (though I'd still argue that's a high degradation #) but not being able to count on it charging when you do plug it in is.
            I think that as these programs play out, we'll end up seeing a striation based on thermal management systems (mainly air vs liquid) as much or more than chemistry chosen. And more important than any technical issue will be how it's handled by the manufacturer and the overall driver experience created.
            chelsea

            To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
            From: rich@...
            Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:03:10 +0000
            Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini Acid Test




























            The most interesting pure EV is the Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the driving range. Further, batteries are based on a chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees centigrade of ambient temperature.



            http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw



















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Forbes Black
            BMW sent out a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F Wow, that s awful. It s also
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 29, 2010
              "BMW sent out a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F"

              Wow, that's awful. It's also more-or-less inexcusable, considering that every EV charging system I've worked on can charge well below 0F.

              Hmmm...

              - Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA
              Cycloculture - A Journal for Real World Cyclists
              http://cycloculture.com/


              --- On Mon, 3/29/10, Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...> wrote:

              > From: Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...>
              > Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini Acid Test
              > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 6:33 PM
              >
              > Agreed that some Tesla owners would beg to differ on the
              > "most interesting" front, esp given the Mini E cost. But it
              > is a fun little scoot, for sure.
              > We're definitely seeing more range reduction in cold wx on
              > the Mini E than in the RAVs or Teslas in the same area
              > (among those who've reported). But more troublesome for the
              > Mini is the lack of charging in truly cold wx- BMW sent out
              > a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might
              > not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F...which
              > encompasses a few months at a stretch in NJ, where 1/2 the
              > cars are. Bad enough to have your range reduced, but if ~70%
              > of commuters drive less than 40 miles/day, then having your
              > range degrade even 30% from normal isn't necessarily
              > catastrophic (though I'd still argue that's a high
              > degradation #) but not being able to count on it charging
              > when you do plug it in is.
              > I think that as these programs play out, we'll end up
              > seeing a striation based on thermal management systems
              > (mainly air vs liquid) as much or more than chemistry
              > chosen. And more important than any technical issue will be
              > how it's handled by the manufacturer and the overall driver
              > experience created.
              > chelsea
              >
              > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
              > From: rich@...
              > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:03:10 +0000
              > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric
              > Mini Acid Test
              >
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              >    
              >      
              >      
              >       The most interesting pure EV is the
              > Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people
              > who own them.  One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is
              > that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the
              > driving range.  Further, batteries are based on a
              > chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of
              > reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees
              > centigrade of ambient temperature.
              >
              >
              >
              > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw
              >
              >
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              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >     future-fuels-and-vehicles-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
            • Chelsea Sexton
              Yup- I paraphrased a little, but the newsletters are all here (see cold weather on this one):
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 30, 2010
                Yup- I paraphrased a little, but the newsletters are all here (see "cold weather" on this one):
                http://batxcr1.bmwcenternet.com/lib/eDOCS/PLUGGED_IN_pastissue.pdf
                then again, that doesn't top (for me) the range tips they've distributed at various points (again, paraphrasing):
                1) watch your right foot (fair)2) minimize HVAC use (also fair)
                but in the "no comment" section...ok, maybe too many comments to bother...3) don't charge your cell phone4) minimize headlight use5) minimize defroster use6) turn *down* (not off) your radio
                I expect some stumbling along the way- but after all the years working to get the cars, tough to watch programs suffer for poor communications too.
                chels.To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                From: diarmaede@...
                Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:34:03 -0700
                Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini Acid Test




























                "BMW sent out a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F"



                Wow, that's awful. It's also more-or-less inexcusable, considering that every EV charging system I've worked on can charge well below 0F.



                Hmmm...



                - Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA

                Cycloculture - A Journal for Real World Cyclists

                http://cycloculture.com/



                --- On Mon, 3/29/10, Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...> wrote:



                > From: Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...>

                > Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini Acid Test

                > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                > Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 6:33 PM

                >

                > Agreed that some Tesla owners would beg to differ on the

                > "most interesting" front, esp given the Mini E cost. But it

                > is a fun little scoot, for sure.

                > We're definitely seeing more range reduction in cold wx on

                > the Mini E than in the RAVs or Teslas in the same area

                > (among those who've reported). But more troublesome for the

                > Mini is the lack of charging in truly cold wx- BMW sent out

                > a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might

                > not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F...which

                > encompasses a few months at a stretch in NJ, where 1/2 the

                > cars are. Bad enough to have your range reduced, but if ~70%

                > of commuters drive less than 40 miles/day, then having your

                > range degrade even 30% from normal isn't necessarily

                > catastrophic (though I'd still argue that's a high

                > degradation #) but not being able to count on it charging

                > when you do plug it in is.

                > I think that as these programs play out, we'll end up

                > seeing a striation based on thermal management systems

                > (mainly air vs liquid) as much or more than chemistry

                > chosen. And more important than any technical issue will be

                > how it's handled by the manufacturer and the overall driver

                > experience created.

                > chelsea

                >

                > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                > From: rich@...

                > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:03:10 +0000

                > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric

                > Mini Acid Test

                >

                >

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                >

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                >

                >

                >

                >

                > The most interesting pure EV is the

                > Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people

                > who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is

                > that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the

                > driving range. Further, batteries are based on a

                > chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of

                > reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees

                > centigrade of ambient temperature.

                >

                >

                >

                > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw

                >

                >

                >

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                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >

                >

                >

                > ------------------------------------

                >

                > Yahoo! Groups Links

                >

                >

                > future-fuels-and-vehicles-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                >

                >

                >

















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Marc Geller
                I haven t seen the list, but it is really unforgivable for BMW or whoever to suggest that that list of low-level energy draws (cell phone, headlights, radio,
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 30, 2010
                  I haven't seen the list, but it is really unforgivable for BMW or
                  whoever to suggest that that list of low-level energy draws (cell
                  phone, headlights, radio, etc) could have any meaningful impact on
                  range.

                  RAV4 Info has allowed me to see the actual impact of any energy draw.
                  I know that even 90s era inefficient headlights on bright are less of
                  a draw than going 1mph faster.

                  I wish carmakers would integrate a simple numerical display of amps or
                  watts in and out, but I suspect they'll go for colored dots or leaves.

                  Marc

                  On Mar 30, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Chelsea Sexton wrote:

                  >
                  > Yup- I paraphrased a little, but the newsletters are all here (see
                  > "cold weather" on this one):
                  > http://batxcr1.bmwcenternet.com/lib/eDOCS/PLUGGED_IN_pastissue.pdf
                  > then again, that doesn't top (for me) the range tips they've
                  > distributed at various points (again, paraphrasing):
                  > 1) watch your right foot (fair)2) minimize HVAC use (also fair)
                  > but in the "no comment" section...ok, maybe too many comments to
                  > bother...3) don't charge your cell phone4) minimize headlight use5)
                  > minimize defroster use6) turn *down* (not off) your radio
                  > I expect some stumbling along the way- but after all the years
                  > working to get the cars, tough to watch programs suffer for poor
                  > communications too.
                  > chels.To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: diarmaede@...
                  > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:34:03 -0700
                  > Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini
                  > Acid Test
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > "BMW sent out a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the
                  > car might not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Wow, that's awful. It's also more-or-less inexcusable, considering
                  > that every EV charging system I've worked on can charge well below 0F.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hmmm...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > - Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA
                  >
                  > Cycloculture - A Journal for Real World Cyclists
                  >
                  > http://cycloculture.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Mon, 3/29/10, Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >> From: Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...>
                  >
                  >> Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini
                  >> Acid Test
                  >
                  >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >> Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 6:33 PM
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> Agreed that some Tesla owners would beg to differ on the
                  >
                  >> "most interesting" front, esp given the Mini E cost. But it
                  >
                  >> is a fun little scoot, for sure.
                  >
                  >> We're definitely seeing more range reduction in cold wx on
                  >
                  >> the Mini E than in the RAVs or Teslas in the same area
                  >
                  >> (among those who've reported). But more troublesome for the
                  >
                  >> Mini is the lack of charging in truly cold wx- BMW sent out
                  >
                  >> a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might
                  >
                  >> not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F...which
                  >
                  >> encompasses a few months at a stretch in NJ, where 1/2 the
                  >
                  >> cars are. Bad enough to have your range reduced, but if ~70%
                  >
                  >> of commuters drive less than 40 miles/day, then having your
                  >
                  >> range degrade even 30% from normal isn't necessarily
                  >
                  >> catastrophic (though I'd still argue that's a high
                  >
                  >> degradation #) but not being able to count on it charging
                  >
                  >> when you do plug it in is.
                  >
                  >> I think that as these programs play out, we'll end up
                  >
                  >> seeing a striation based on thermal management systems
                  >
                  >> (mainly air vs liquid) as much or more than chemistry
                  >
                  >> chosen. And more important than any technical issue will be
                  >
                  >> how it's handled by the manufacturer and the overall driver
                  >
                  >> experience created.
                  >
                  >> chelsea
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >> From: rich@...
                  >
                  >> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:03:10 +0000
                  >
                  >> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric
                  >
                  >> Mini Acid Test
                  >
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                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> The most interesting pure EV is the
                  >
                  >> Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people
                  >
                  >> who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is
                  >
                  >> that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the
                  >
                  >> driving range. Further, batteries are based on a
                  >
                  >> chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of
                  >
                  >> reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees
                  >
                  >> centigrade of ambient temperature.
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
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                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >>
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                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> future-fuels-and-vehicles-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
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                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Chelsea Sexton
                  Exactly...the last 4 items will have a negligible impact on range, but worse, to discourage the use of two safety items? While many of the early adopters would
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 30, 2010
                    Exactly...the last 4 items will have a negligible impact on range, but worse, to discourage the use of two safety items?
                    While many of the early adopters would like a numerical display, there are just as many drivers for whom that's too much info or who don't think in amps and watts (I know, but it's true ;o) But, I agree with the sentiment and there are ways to achieve the same result. The EV1 range gage was pretty popular (and we did have a numerical equivalent chart for those who really wanted to know)- and while I personally don't like the leaves, I do very much like the power use gages of the Fusion hybrid, which has two separate displays: one pegged to accelerator, and one to accessories. Really useful to see the impact of each.

                    To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                    From: marc@...
                    Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:21:07 -0700
                    Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini Acid Test




























                    I haven't seen the list, but it is really unforgivable for BMW or

                    whoever to suggest that that list of low-level energy draws (cell

                    phone, headlights, radio, etc) could have any meaningful impact on

                    range.



                    RAV4 Info has allowed me to see the actual impact of any energy draw.

                    I know that even 90s era inefficient headlights on bright are less of

                    a draw than going 1mph faster.



                    I wish carmakers would integrate a simple numerical display of amps or

                    watts in and out, but I suspect they'll go for colored dots or leaves.



                    Marc



                    On Mar 30, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Chelsea Sexton wrote:



                    >

                    > Yup- I paraphrased a little, but the newsletters are all here (see

                    > "cold weather" on this one):

                    > http://batxcr1.bmwcenternet.com/lib/eDOCS/PLUGGED_IN_pastissue.pdf

                    > then again, that doesn't top (for me) the range tips they've

                    > distributed at various points (again, paraphrasing):

                    > 1) watch your right foot (fair)2) minimize HVAC use (also fair)

                    > but in the "no comment" section...ok, maybe too many comments to

                    > bother...3) don't charge your cell phone4) minimize headlight use5)

                    > minimize defroster use6) turn *down* (not off) your radio

                    > I expect some stumbling along the way- but after all the years

                    > working to get the cars, tough to watch programs suffer for poor

                    > communications too.

                    > chels.To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                    > From: diarmaede@...

                    > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:34:03 -0700

                    > Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini

                    > Acid Test

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

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                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > "BMW sent out a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the

                    > car might not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F"

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Wow, that's awful. It's also more-or-less inexcusable, considering

                    > that every EV charging system I've worked on can charge well below 0F.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Hmmm...

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > - Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA

                    >

                    > Cycloculture - A Journal for Real World Cyclists

                    >

                    > http://cycloculture.com/

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > --- On Mon, 3/29/10, Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...> wrote:

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >> From: Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...>

                    >

                    >> Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini

                    >> Acid Test

                    >

                    >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                    >

                    >> Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 6:33 PM

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >> Agreed that some Tesla owners would beg to differ on the

                    >

                    >> "most interesting" front, esp given the Mini E cost. But it

                    >

                    >> is a fun little scoot, for sure.

                    >

                    >> We're definitely seeing more range reduction in cold wx on

                    >

                    >> the Mini E than in the RAVs or Teslas in the same area

                    >

                    >> (among those who've reported). But more troublesome for the

                    >

                    >> Mini is the lack of charging in truly cold wx- BMW sent out

                    >

                    >> a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might

                    >

                    >> not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F...which

                    >

                    >> encompasses a few months at a stretch in NJ, where 1/2 the

                    >

                    >> cars are. Bad enough to have your range reduced, but if ~70%

                    >

                    >> of commuters drive less than 40 miles/day, then having your

                    >

                    >> range degrade even 30% from normal isn't necessarily

                    >

                    >> catastrophic (though I'd still argue that's a high

                    >

                    >> degradation #) but not being able to count on it charging

                    >

                    >> when you do plug it in is.

                    >

                    >> I think that as these programs play out, we'll end up

                    >

                    >> seeing a striation based on thermal management systems

                    >

                    >> (mainly air vs liquid) as much or more than chemistry

                    >

                    >> chosen. And more important than any technical issue will be

                    >

                    >> how it's handled by the manufacturer and the overall driver

                    >

                    >> experience created.

                    >

                    >> chelsea

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com

                    >

                    >> From: rich@...

                    >

                    >> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:03:10 +0000

                    >

                    >> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric

                    >

                    >> Mini Acid Test

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >> The most interesting pure EV is the

                    >

                    >> Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people

                    >

                    >> who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is

                    >

                    >> that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the

                    >

                    >> driving range. Further, batteries are based on a

                    >

                    >> chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of

                    >

                    >> reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees

                    >

                    >> centigrade of ambient temperature.

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

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                    >>

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                    >>

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                    >>

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                    >>

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                    >>

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                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >> ------------------------------------

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >> future-fuels-and-vehicles-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >>

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

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                    >

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                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ------------------------------------

                    >

                    > Yahoo! Groups Links

                    >

                    >

                    >

















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Marc Geller
                    I many now think (somewhat) in amps and watts, but I didn t until the RAVInfo display made it plain to me. You don t have to understand anything about amps and
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 30, 2010
                      I many now think (somewhat) in amps and watts, but I didn't until the
                      RAVInfo display made it plain to me. You don't have to understand
                      anything about amps and watts to understand the relative increase or
                      decrease in those numbers as energy consumed. And nothing, nothing
                      gives more incentive than watching the SOC go up! That's very
                      difficult to do without numbers. I get excited about a .3 % increase
                      in range because it's real. I see it. Can't register that with a leaf
                      or analog display.

                      I think alternative displays perhaps need to be enabled in the screens
                      all these cars are going to have. Just as I often don't turn on the
                      RAVInfo.

                      Marc



                      On Mar 30, 2010, at 2:59 PM, Chelsea Sexton wrote:

                      >
                      > Exactly...the last 4 items will have a negligible impact on range,
                      > but worse, to discourage the use of two safety items?
                      > While many of the early adopters would like a numerical display,
                      > there are just as many drivers for whom that's too much info or who
                      > don't think in amps and watts (I know, but it's true ;o) But, I
                      > agree with the sentiment and there are ways to achieve the same
                      > result. The EV1 range gage was pretty popular (and we did have a
                      > numerical equivalent chart for those who really wanted to know)- and
                      > while I personally don't like the leaves, I do very much like the
                      > power use gages of the Fusion hybrid, which has two separate
                      > displays: one pegged to accelerator, and one to accessories. Really
                      > useful to see the impact of each.
                      >
                      > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: marc@...
                      > Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:21:07 -0700
                      > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini
                      > Acid Test
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I haven't seen the list, but it is really unforgivable for BMW or
                      >
                      > whoever to suggest that that list of low-level energy draws (cell
                      >
                      > phone, headlights, radio, etc) could have any meaningful impact on
                      >
                      > range.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > RAV4 Info has allowed me to see the actual impact of any energy draw.
                      >
                      > I know that even 90s era inefficient headlights on bright are less of
                      >
                      > a draw than going 1mph faster.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I wish carmakers would integrate a simple numerical display of amps or
                      >
                      > watts in and out, but I suspect they'll go for colored dots or leaves.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Marc
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Mar 30, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Chelsea Sexton wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> Yup- I paraphrased a little, but the newsletters are all here (see
                      >
                      >> "cold weather" on this one):
                      >
                      >> http://batxcr1.bmwcenternet.com/lib/eDOCS/PLUGGED_IN_pastissue.pdf
                      >
                      >> then again, that doesn't top (for me) the range tips they've
                      >
                      >> distributed at various points (again, paraphrasing):
                      >
                      >> 1) watch your right foot (fair)2) minimize HVAC use (also fair)
                      >
                      >> but in the "no comment" section...ok, maybe too many comments to
                      >
                      >> bother...3) don't charge your cell phone4) minimize headlight use5)
                      >
                      >> minimize defroster use6) turn *down* (not off) your radio
                      >
                      >> I expect some stumbling along the way- but after all the years
                      >
                      >> working to get the cars, tough to watch programs suffer for poor
                      >
                      >> communications too.
                      >
                      >> chels.To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >> From: diarmaede@...
                      >
                      >> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:34:03 -0700
                      >
                      >> Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini
                      >
                      >> Acid Test
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> "BMW sent out a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the
                      >
                      >> car might not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F"
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> Wow, that's awful. It's also more-or-less inexcusable, considering
                      >
                      >> that every EV charging system I've worked on can charge well below
                      >> 0F.
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> Hmmm...
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> - Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> Cycloculture - A Journal for Real World Cyclists
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> http://cycloculture.com/
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> --- On Mon, 3/29/10, Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> From: Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini
                      >
                      >>> Acid Test
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 6:33 PM
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Agreed that some Tesla owners would beg to differ on the
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> "most interesting" front, esp given the Mini E cost. But it
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> is a fun little scoot, for sure.
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> We're definitely seeing more range reduction in cold wx on
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> the Mini E than in the RAVs or Teslas in the same area
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> (among those who've reported). But more troublesome for the
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Mini is the lack of charging in truly cold wx- BMW sent out
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F...which
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> encompasses a few months at a stretch in NJ, where 1/2 the
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> cars are. Bad enough to have your range reduced, but if ~70%
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> of commuters drive less than 40 miles/day, then having your
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> range degrade even 30% from normal isn't necessarily
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> catastrophic (though I'd still argue that's a high
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> degradation #) but not being able to count on it charging
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> when you do plug it in is.
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> I think that as these programs play out, we'll end up
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> seeing a striation based on thermal management systems
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> (mainly air vs liquid) as much or more than chemistry
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> chosen. And more important than any technical issue will be
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> how it's handled by the manufacturer and the overall driver
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> experience created.
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> chelsea
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> From: rich@...
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:03:10 +0000
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Mini Acid Test
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> The most interesting pure EV is the
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> driving range. Further, batteries are based on a
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> centigrade of ambient temperature.
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> ------------------------------------
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>> future-fuels-and-vehicles-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Paul Scott
                      Yes, Marc is right about the numbers. I count each percent as a mile, so when I come off the freeway and register .3 in regen, I consider that a free .3 mile.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 30, 2010
                        Yes, Marc is right about the numbers. I count each percent as a mile,
                        so when I come off the freeway and register .3 in regen, I consider
                        that a free .3 mile.

                        Paul

                        On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:56 PM, Marc Geller wrote:

                        > I many now think (somewhat) in amps and watts, but I didn't until the
                        > RAVInfo display made it plain to me. You don't have to understand
                        > anything about amps and watts to understand the relative increase or
                        > decrease in those numbers as energy consumed. And nothing, nothing
                        > gives more incentive than watching the SOC go up! That's very
                        > difficult to do without numbers. I get excited about a .3 % increase
                        > in range because it's real. I see it. Can't register that with a leaf
                        > or analog display.
                        >
                        > I think alternative displays perhaps need to be enabled in the screens
                        > all these cars are going to have. Just as I often don't turn on the
                        > RAVInfo.
                        >
                        > Marc
                        >
                        > On Mar 30, 2010, at 2:59 PM, Chelsea Sexton wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Exactly...the last 4 items will have a negligible impact on range,
                        > > but worse, to discourage the use of two safety items?
                        > > While many of the early adopters would like a numerical display,
                        > > there are just as many drivers for whom that's too much info or who
                        > > don't think in amps and watts (I know, but it's true ;o) But, I
                        > > agree with the sentiment and there are ways to achieve the same
                        > > result. The EV1 range gage was pretty popular (and we did have a
                        > > numerical equivalent chart for those who really wanted to know)- and
                        > > while I personally don't like the leaves, I do very much like the
                        > > power use gages of the Fusion hybrid, which has two separate
                        > > displays: one pegged to accelerator, and one to accessories. Really
                        > > useful to see the impact of each.
                        > >
                        > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                        > > From: marc@...
                        > > Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:21:07 -0700
                        > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini
                        > > Acid Test
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I haven't seen the list, but it is really unforgivable for BMW or
                        > >
                        > > whoever to suggest that that list of low-level energy draws (cell
                        > >
                        > > phone, headlights, radio, etc) could have any meaningful impact on
                        > >
                        > > range.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > RAV4 Info has allowed me to see the actual impact of any energy
                        > draw.
                        > >
                        > > I know that even 90s era inefficient headlights on bright are less
                        > of
                        > >
                        > > a draw than going 1mph faster.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I wish carmakers would integrate a simple numerical display of
                        > amps or
                        > >
                        > > watts in and out, but I suspect they'll go for colored dots or
                        > leaves.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Marc
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Mar 30, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Chelsea Sexton wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> Yup- I paraphrased a little, but the newsletters are all here (see
                        > >
                        > >> "cold weather" on this one):
                        > >
                        > >> http://batxcr1.bmwcenternet.com/lib/eDOCS/PLUGGED_IN_pastissue.pdf
                        > >
                        > >> then again, that doesn't top (for me) the range tips they've
                        > >
                        > >> distributed at various points (again, paraphrasing):
                        > >
                        > >> 1) watch your right foot (fair)2) minimize HVAC use (also fair)
                        > >
                        > >> but in the "no comment" section...ok, maybe too many comments to
                        > >
                        > >> bother...3) don't charge your cell phone4) minimize headlight use5)
                        > >
                        > >> minimize defroster use6) turn *down* (not off) your radio
                        > >
                        > >> I expect some stumbling along the way- but after all the years
                        > >
                        > >> working to get the cars, tough to watch programs suffer for poor
                        > >
                        > >> communications too.
                        > >
                        > >> chels.To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > >> From: diarmaede@...
                        > >
                        > >> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:34:03 -0700
                        > >
                        > >> Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini
                        > >
                        > >> Acid Test
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> "BMW sent out a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the
                        > >
                        > >> car might not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F"
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> Wow, that's awful. It's also more-or-less inexcusable, considering
                        > >
                        > >> that every EV charging system I've worked on can charge well below
                        > >> 0F.
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> Hmmm...
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> - Forbes Black, Santa Clarita, CA
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> Cycloculture - A Journal for Real World Cyclists
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> http://cycloculture.com/
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> --- On Mon, 3/29/10, Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> From: Chelsea Sexton <evchels@...>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> Subject: RE: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric Mini
                        > >
                        > >>> Acid Test
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 6:33 PM
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> Agreed that some Tesla owners would beg to differ on the
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> "most interesting" front, esp given the Mini E cost. But it
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> is a fun little scoot, for sure.
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> We're definitely seeing more range reduction in cold wx on
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> the Mini E than in the RAVs or Teslas in the same area
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> (among those who've reported). But more troublesome for the
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                        > >>
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                        > >>> Mini is the lack of charging in truly cold wx- BMW sent out
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> a newsletter telling drivers to expect that the car might
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                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> not charge below 40F, and would not charge below 32F...which
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> encompasses a few months at a stretch in NJ, where 1/2 the
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> cars are. Bad enough to have your range reduced, but if ~70%
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> of commuters drive less than 40 miles/day, then having your
                        > >
                        > >>
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                        > >>> range degrade even 30% from normal isn't necessarily
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                        > >>> catastrophic (though I'd still argue that's a high
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> degradation #) but not being able to count on it charging
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> when you do plug it in is.
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                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> I think that as these programs play out, we'll end up
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> seeing a striation based on thermal management systems
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> (mainly air vs liquid) as much or more than chemistry
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> chosen. And more important than any technical issue will be
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> how it's handled by the manufacturer and the overall driver
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> experience created.
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> chelsea
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> From: rich@...
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:03:10 +0000
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Scoring the Electric
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> Mini Acid Test
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> The most interesting pure EV is the
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> Mini E, but here are some real life experiences of people
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> who own them. One of the caveats of EV's or PHEV's is
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> that the use of heating or cooling will seriously reduce the
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> driving range. Further, batteries are based on a
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> chemical reaction, and in chemistry we learned that rates of
                        > >
                        > >>
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                        > >>> reaction change by a factor of 2 with every 10 degrees
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> centigrade of ambient temperature.
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/automobiles/28ELECTRIC.html?hpw
                        > >
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>
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                        > >>> ------------------------------------
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                        > >>
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                        > >>>
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                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>> future-fuels-and-vehicles-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > >>
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                        > >>>
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                        > >
                        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >>
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                        > >>
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                        > >>
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                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >



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