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Re: AC Propulsion Presentation at EAA SV

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  • murdoch
    Yup, the exact link is here: http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf I love these guys. They get it in so many ways. Sure, a person could disagree with
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 23, 2003
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      Yup, the exact link is here:

      http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf

      I love these guys. They get it in so many ways. Sure, a person could disagree
      with them on some things, but whatever. They still rule.

      On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:46:58 -0700, you wrote:

      >
      >The slides presented by Mr. Gage of AC Propulsion at EAA SV meeting are on their web site now.
      >http://www.acpropulsion.com
      >
      >Young
      >
      >_______________________________________________
      >RAV4-EV mailing list
      >RAV4-EV@...
      >http://www.e-farm.com/mailman/listinfo/rav4-ev
    • ntsl532
      Awesome PDF file! I printed the whole thing I found it so interesting. Actually I think Li-ion batteries can be obtained for less per kWh than they specify
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 26, 2003
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        Awesome PDF file! I printed the whole thing I found it so
        interesting. Actually I think Li-ion batteries can be obtained for
        less per kWh than they specify in the article. I found I could buy a
        50 kWh lithium polymer battery pack from Everspring (www.
        everspring.net) Technologies for $13,888. The batteries have 1100
        cycle at 60% Depth of discharge, operating range from -25 C to 75 C.
        The techology is clearly here. The challenge will be to continue to
        bring the price of all types of high powered Li batteries down even
        further so the price gap can be closed between ICE and BEV vehicles.
        As this happens the EVs will sell rapidly as the public sees the
        advantages and affordability. I think fuel cell technology is far
        from becoming commercially viable as many cars are still in $100,000
        or above price range last time I checked. I hope anyone attending
        the show in Long beach will report on what they plan to sell the FCEV
        vehicles for and when. Anyway the news on EVs is good and let's let
        Asia bring down the cost of batteries so there can be continued
        acceptance of BEVS.

        --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
        > Yup, the exact link is here:
        >
        > http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf
        >
        > I love these guys. They get it in so many ways. Sure, a person
        could disagree
        > with them on some things, but whatever. They still rule.
        >
        > On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:46:58 -0700, you wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >The slides presented by Mr. Gage of AC Propulsion at EAA SV
        meeting are on their web site now.
        > >http://www.acpropulsion.com
        > >
        > >Young
        > >
        > >_______________________________________________
        > >RAV4-EV mailing list
        > >RAV4-EV@e...
        > >http://www.e-farm.com/mailman/listinfo/rav4-ev
      • murdoch
        Interesting point about the Li-Ion batteries available. ACP is using LG but there are others out there. Mr. Gage said some interesting things at the so-Cal
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 26, 2003
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          Interesting point about the Li-Ion batteries available. ACP is using LG but
          there are others out there. Mr. Gage said some interesting things at the so-Cal
          presentation as to what they've found with charging and recharging and the life
          of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was important, but I don't
          want to be inaccurate.

          On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:18:32 -0000, you wrote:

          >Awesome PDF file! I printed the whole thing I found it so
          >interesting. Actually I think Li-ion batteries can be obtained for
          >less per kWh than they specify in the article. I found I could buy a
          >50 kWh lithium polymer battery pack from Everspring (www.
          >everspring.net) Technologies for $13,888. The batteries have 1100
          >cycle at 60% Depth of discharge, operating range from -25 C to 75 C.
          >The techology is clearly here.




          > http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf
        • ntsl532
          Actually the batteries I mentioned were a lithium polymer design with solid electrolyte for anyone out there less familiar with the designs. Typically lithium
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 26, 2003
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            Actually the batteries I mentioned were a lithium polymer design with
            solid electrolyte for anyone out there less familiar with the
            designs. Typically lithium polymer batteries are more expensive, but
            these that are Cr-F-li (chromium, fluorine, lithium) colloid type.
            They are made in China. No need to worry about fire or explosions
            with the solid electrolyte design vs. the Li-ion problems. Also as I
            mentioned here before, the operating range is between -25 C and 75
            C. The lithium ion batteries have problems when it is cold out.
            These lithium polymer batteries can achieve 1100 charges if charged
            and discharged properly.

            I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed to be
            careful about 90% state of charge.

            I think there is potential for him (Tom Gage) to get a lithium
            polymer battery pack from this company (Everspring) for $10K-$15k.
            That is beter than $90,00 for NiMH pack, or $25,000 or more for the
            Li-ion pack now. But he indicated that he didn't want to use anthing
            experimental. Well, actually Li -ion is still relatively new for use
            in EVs, so I'd encourage him to give it a try. I may myself.

            The battery is really where the money is with EVs. Better batteries
            at improved prices will increase the viability of these vehicles.
            Lithium polymer has the best operating characteristics for the BEV in
            my opinion.


            --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
            > Interesting point about the Li-Ion batteries available. ACP is
            using LG but
            > there are others out there. Mr. Gage said some interesting things
            at the so-Cal
            > presentation as to what they've found with charging and recharging
            and the life
            > of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was important,
            but I don't
            > want to be inaccurate.
            >
            > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:18:32 -0000, you wrote:
            >
            > >Awesome PDF file! I printed the whole thing I found it so
            > >interesting. Actually I think Li-ion batteries can be obtained
            for
            > >less per kWh than they specify in the article. I found I could
            buy a
            > >50 kWh lithium polymer battery pack from Everspring (www.
            > >everspring.net) Technologies for $13,888. The batteries have 1100
            > >cycle at 60% Depth of discharge, operating range from -25 C to 75
            C.
            > >The techology is clearly here.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf
          • murdoch
            Thanks for the clarifications and info. The Li-Poly you mention certainly sounds good.
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 26, 2003
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              Thanks for the clarifications and info. The Li-Poly you mention certainly
              sounds good.

              On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:42:54 -0000, you wrote:

              >Actually the batteries I mentioned were a lithium polymer design with
              >solid electrolyte for anyone out there less familiar with the
              >designs. Typically lithium polymer batteries are more expensive, but
              >these that are Cr-F-li (chromium, fluorine, lithium) colloid type.
              >They are made in China. No need to worry about fire or explosions
              >with the solid electrolyte design vs. the Li-ion problems. Also as I
              >mentioned here before, the operating range is between -25 C and 75
              >C. The lithium ion batteries have problems when it is cold out.
              >These lithium polymer batteries can achieve 1100 charges if charged
              >and discharged properly.
              >
              >I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed to be
              >careful about 90% state of charge.
              >
              >I think there is potential for him (Tom Gage) to get a lithium
              >polymer battery pack from this company (Everspring) for $10K-$15k.
              >That is beter than $90,00 for NiMH pack, or $25,000 or more for the
              >Li-ion pack now. But he indicated that he didn't want to use anthing
              >experimental. Well, actually Li -ion is still relatively new for use
              >in EVs, so I'd encourage him to give it a try. I may myself.
              >
              >The battery is really where the money is with EVs. Better batteries
              >at improved prices will increase the viability of these vehicles.
              >Lithium polymer has the best operating characteristics for the BEV in
              >my opinion.
              >
              >
              >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
              >> Interesting point about the Li-Ion batteries available. ACP is
              >using LG but
              >> there are others out there. Mr. Gage said some interesting things
              >at the so-Cal
              >> presentation as to what they've found with charging and recharging
              >and the life
              >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was important,
              >but I don't
              >> want to be inaccurate.
              >>
              >> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:18:32 -0000, you wrote:
              >>
              >> >Awesome PDF file! I printed the whole thing I found it so
              >> >interesting. Actually I think Li-ion batteries can be obtained
              >for
              >> >less per kWh than they specify in the article. I found I could
              >buy a
              >> >50 kWh lithium polymer battery pack from Everspring (www.
              >> >everspring.net) Technologies for $13,888. The batteries have 1100
              >> >cycle at 60% Depth of discharge, operating range from -25 C to 75
              >C.
              >> >The techology is clearly here.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> > http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf
              >
              >
              >
              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Johann Joseph
              If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less would still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge (where you get most of the charge back
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 26, 2003
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                If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less would
                still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge (where you
                get most of the charge back except the last 10-20%) would become the
                regular charge. So it could be advertised as a 270 mpc car that can
                be rapidly charged.

                Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with 90% charge) and has a rapid
                recharge it would be good.

                But this is all speculation. We don't know if this is really true
                or not. I do know that my laptop battery seems to hold less and
                less charge over the past 3 years that I've had this thing.

                > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed to
                >be careful about 90% state of charge.

                >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                >>important,
              • ntsl532
                Yes they do, and they claim several European EV manufacturers as customers, but I would want more data before investing thousands of dollars in the batteries.
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 27, 2003
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                  Yes they do, and they claim several European EV manufacturers as
                  customers, but I would want more data before investing thousands of
                  dollars in the batteries. I may buy some for my E-scooter. I do
                  think with these types of batteries the technology gap and price gap
                  for EVs compared with ICE cars has been closed even further than with
                  Li-ion batteries.

                  --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                  > Thanks for the clarifications and info. The Li-Poly you mention
                  certainly
                  > sounds good.
                  >
                  > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:42:54 -0000, you wrote:
                  >
                  > >Actually the batteries I mentioned were a lithium polymer design
                  with
                  > >solid electrolyte for anyone out there less familiar with the
                  > >designs. Typically lithium polymer batteries are more expensive,
                  but
                  > >these that are Cr-F-li (chromium, fluorine, lithium) colloid
                  type.
                  > >They are made in China. No need to worry about fire or explosions
                  > >with the solid electrolyte design vs. the Li-ion problems. Also
                  as I
                  > >mentioned here before, the operating range is between -25 C and 75
                  > >C. The lithium ion batteries have problems when it is cold out.
                  > >These lithium polymer batteries can achieve 1100 charges if
                  charged
                  > >and discharged properly.
                  > >
                  > >I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed to
                  be
                  > >careful about 90% state of charge.
                  > >
                  > >I think there is potential for him (Tom Gage) to get a lithium
                  > >polymer battery pack from this company (Everspring) for $10K-
                  $15k.
                  > >That is beter than $90,00 for NiMH pack, or $25,000 or more for
                  the
                  > >Li-ion pack now. But he indicated that he didn't want to use
                  anthing
                  > >experimental. Well, actually Li -ion is still relatively new for
                  use
                  > >in EVs, so I'd encourage him to give it a try. I may myself.
                  > >
                  > >The battery is really where the money is with EVs. Better
                  batteries
                  > >at improved prices will increase the viability of these vehicles.
                  > >Lithium polymer has the best operating characteristics for the BEV
                  in
                  > >my opinion.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                  > >> Interesting point about the Li-Ion batteries available. ACP is
                  > >using LG but
                  > >> there are others out there. Mr. Gage said some interesting
                  things
                  > >at the so-Cal
                  > >> presentation as to what they've found with charging and
                  recharging
                  > >and the life
                  > >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                  important,
                  > >but I don't
                  > >> want to be inaccurate.
                  > >>
                  > >> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:18:32 -0000, you wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> >Awesome PDF file! I printed the whole thing I found it so
                  > >> >interesting. Actually I think Li-ion batteries can be obtained
                  > >for
                  > >> >less per kWh than they specify in the article. I found I could
                  > >buy a
                  > >> >50 kWh lithium polymer battery pack from Everspring (www.
                  > >> >everspring.net) Technologies for $13,888. The batteries have
                  1100
                  > >> >cycle at 60% Depth of discharge, operating range from -25 C to
                  75
                  > >C.
                  > >> >The techology is clearly here.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> > http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                • ntsl532
                  In my quotation below I said, He indicated they needed to be careful about 90% state of charge. I made a typo. and the word about should have been
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 27, 2003
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                    In my quotation below I said, "He indicated they needed to
                    be careful about 90% state of charge." I made a typo. and the
                    word "about" should have been "above." I forgot his precise words
                    but he indicated a concern about charging above 90% state of charge
                    as it could reduce the life of the battery. Many lead acid batteries
                    are typically cycled between 20% and 80% to avoid lead plate
                    degradation from covalent bonding of sulfate radicals below 20%, and
                    avoid overcharging and endothermic heat losses above 80%.


                    --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann Joseph" <goyogi@y...> wrote:
                    > If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less would
                    > still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge (where you
                    > get most of the charge back except the last 10-20%) would become
                    the
                    > regular charge. So it could be advertised as a 270 mpc car that
                    can
                    > be rapidly charged.
                    >
                    > Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with 90% charge) and has a
                    rapid
                    > recharge it would be good.
                    >
                    > But this is all speculation. We don't know if this is really true
                    > or not. I do know that my laptop battery seems to hold less and
                    > less charge over the past 3 years that I've had this thing.
                    >
                    > > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed to
                    > >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                    >
                    > >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                    > >>important,
                  • ntsl532
                    Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak with for precise details on charging, but I thought it was mentioned that they used a 20 kW charger to charge the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 27, 2003
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                      Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak with for precise details
                      on charging, but I thought it was mentioned that they used a 20 kW
                      charger to charge the tZero battery pack. Anyway, Li-ion and Li
                      polymer are light weight high power batteries and they are ideal for
                      EVs. With proper charging one can get 500-1000 cycles from these
                      types of batteries and that is considerably more than the 300 or so
                      cycles one can get from lead/acid batteries.

                      If you look at the PDF Murdoch posted from AC propulsion you can see
                      that the tZero went over 300 miles (302 miles) on a charge. It got
                      like 160 Wh/mile fuel economy, which is excellent. So if we had
                      other vehicle platforms capable of this fuel economy and holding a 50
                      kWh battery pack we could see the same mileage figures. ANd I think
                      many people would be happy with 150 mile range too. Hopefully soon
                      Tom Gage will start building the conversions.

                      --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann Joseph" <goyogi@y...> wrote:
                      > If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less would
                      > still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge (where you
                      > get most of the charge back except the last 10-20%) would become
                      the
                      > regular charge. So it could be advertised as a 270 mpc car that
                      can
                      > be rapidly charged.
                      >
                      > Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with 90% charge) and has a
                      rapid
                      > recharge it would be good.
                      >
                      > But this is all speculation. We don't know if this is really true
                      > or not. I do know that my laptop battery seems to hold less and
                      > less charge over the past 3 years that I've had this thing.
                      >
                      > > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed to
                      > >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                      >
                      > >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                      > >>important,
                    • murdoch
                      ACcording to his verbal presenation at the SoCal meeting, which you can download from here (12 megabytes): http://www.herecomesmongo.com/files/ @ 1300 Seconds
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 27, 2003
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                        ACcording to his verbal presenation at the SoCal meeting, which you can download
                        from here (12 megabytes):

                        http://www.herecomesmongo.com/files/

                        @ 1300 Seconds or so (hard to hear):

                        question: do you have any idea what sort of life to expect out of the batteries?

                        answer (roughly): 1. Manufacturer said expect 400 depth of discharge cycles.
                        2. There is Annecdotal evidence that some of the people who use
                        these types of batteries say that depth of charge is more important than depth
                        of discharge. Charge them only to 90%, life increases dramatically.... we're
                        expecting more than 400 cycles....



                        On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:52:47 -0000, you wrote:

                        >Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak with for precise details
                        >on charging, but I thought it was mentioned that they used a 20 kW
                        >charger to charge the tZero battery pack. Anyway, Li-ion and Li
                        >polymer are light weight high power batteries and they are ideal for
                        >EVs. With proper charging one can get 500-1000 cycles from these
                        >types of batteries and that is considerably more than the 300 or so
                        >cycles one can get from lead/acid batteries.
                        >
                        >If you look at the PDF Murdoch posted from AC propulsion you can see
                        >that the tZero went over 300 miles (302 miles) on a charge. It got
                        >like 160 Wh/mile fuel economy, which is excellent. So if we had
                        >other vehicle platforms capable of this fuel economy and holding a 50
                        >kWh battery pack we could see the same mileage figures. ANd I think
                        >many people would be happy with 150 mile range too. Hopefully soon
                        >Tom Gage will start building the conversions.
                        >
                        >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann Joseph" <goyogi@y...> wrote:
                        >> If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less would
                        >> still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge (where you
                        >> get most of the charge back except the last 10-20%) would become
                        >the
                        >> regular charge. So it could be advertised as a 270 mpc car that
                        >can
                        >> be rapidly charged.
                        >>
                        >> Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with 90% charge) and has a
                        >rapid
                        >> recharge it would be good.
                        >>
                        >> But this is all speculation. We don't know if this is really true
                        >> or not. I do know that my laptop battery seems to hold less and
                        >> less charge over the past 3 years that I've had this thing.
                        >>
                        >> > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed to
                        >> >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                        >>
                        >> >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                        >> >>important,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • ntsl532
                        I have heard that Li-ion batteries go about 500 cycles, so 400 makes sense. Under high load or discharge the number of cycles will be less. Trying to get a
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 28, 2003
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                          I have heard that Li-ion batteries go about 500 cycles, so 400 makes
                          sense. Under high load or discharge the number of cycles will be
                          less. Trying to get a commitment from the manufacturer for an actual
                          number of cycles is difficult. The company I mentioned earlier that
                          markets the Li-polymer batteries (Everspring) said they can get 1100
                          cycles, but this assumes 60% DOD(depth of discharge). If you go to
                          70% DOD then the number changes to 500 or more. Still, in this way
                          anyway the Li-polymer seeem superior to Li-ion.

                          Charging methods and discharging methods will both damage a battery
                          if not done according to the manufacturers recommnedations, however
                          it often seems assumed that the user will follow the instructions for
                          charging. But the way a battery is used (discharged)varies
                          tremendously so we seem to hear more about that as far as damaging
                          the battery. But both are important for battery life longevity.

                          --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                          > ACcording to his verbal presenation at the SoCal meeting, which you
                          can download
                          > from here (12 megabytes):
                          >
                          > http://www.herecomesmongo.com/files/
                          >
                          > @ 1300 Seconds or so (hard to hear):
                          >
                          > question: do you have any idea what sort of life to expect out of
                          the batteries?
                          >
                          > answer (roughly): 1. Manufacturer said expect 400 depth of
                          discharge cycles.
                          > 2. There is Annecdotal evidence that some of the
                          people who use
                          > these types of batteries say that depth of charge is more important
                          than depth
                          > of discharge. Charge them only to 90%, life increases
                          dramatically.... we're
                          > expecting more than 400 cycles....
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:52:47 -0000, you wrote:
                          >
                          > >Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak with for precise
                          details
                          > >on charging, but I thought it was mentioned that they used a 20 kW
                          > >charger to charge the tZero battery pack. Anyway, Li-ion and Li
                          > >polymer are light weight high power batteries and they are ideal
                          for
                          > >EVs. With proper charging one can get 500-1000 cycles from these
                          > >types of batteries and that is considerably more than the 300 or
                          so
                          > >cycles one can get from lead/acid batteries.
                          > >
                          > >If you look at the PDF Murdoch posted from AC propulsion you can
                          see
                          > >that the tZero went over 300 miles (302 miles) on a charge. It
                          got
                          > >like 160 Wh/mile fuel economy, which is excellent. So if we had
                          > >other vehicle platforms capable of this fuel economy and holding a
                          50
                          > >kWh battery pack we could see the same mileage figures. ANd I
                          think
                          > >many people would be happy with 150 mile range too. Hopefully
                          soon
                          > >Tom Gage will start building the conversions.
                          > >
                          > >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann Joseph" <goyogi@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > >> If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less would
                          > >> still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge (where
                          you
                          > >> get most of the charge back except the last 10-20%) would become
                          > >the
                          > >> regular charge. So it could be advertised as a 270 mpc car that
                          > >can
                          > >> be rapidly charged.
                          > >>
                          > >> Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with 90% charge) and has a
                          > >rapid
                          > >> recharge it would be good.
                          > >>
                          > >> But this is all speculation. We don't know if this is really
                          true
                          > >> or not. I do know that my laptop battery seems to hold less and
                          > >> less charge over the past 3 years that I've had this thing.
                          > >>
                          > >> > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed
                          to
                          > >> >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                          > >>
                          > >> >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                          > >> >>important,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                        • ntsl532
                          Thanks for the file! It sounds like with Li batteries the car weight will only be 200 lbs more than an ICE car, but with lead/acid it would be 900 pounds for
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 28, 2003
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                            Thanks for the file! It sounds like with Li batteries the car weight
                            will only be 200 lbs more than an ICE car, but with lead/acid it
                            would be 900 pounds for the same range. I calculated for a 50 kWh
                            battery pack a lead/acid pack would weigh 2170 pounds based on a per
                            kWh weight of 43.5 pound for deep cycle liquid lead acid, while the
                            same 50 kWh pack in Li -polymer would weigh only 840 pounds based on
                            16.8 pounds per kWh. That is significant as Tom Gage stated because
                            then the vehicle dynamics do not need much if any adjustment, while
                            with the lead/acid pack 2170 is not possible or needs massive
                            adjustment in frame and suspension design of the car. Anyway the Li
                            chemistry will reduce the weight by 61.4% that of lead acid. The
                            theoretical posibilities for Li-polymer vs. lead/acid would be 1/5 or
                            20% the weight of the lead/acid battery for the same power. But I'm
                            guessing that the battery casings and inert components make the
                            actual weight difference less than 1/5 in addition to the future
                            optimization possibilities of the battery chemistry. ANyway the
                            theretical limit for a 50 kWh battery pack could drop to as low as
                            400 pounds as the batteries are further optimized.

                            It would be interesting to know the curb weight of the tZero with the
                            Li batteries. There was mention of 2500 pounds before using lead
                            acid. SO I wonder what the figure is now. This and Cd of course
                            becomes important in determining fuel economy. As I mentioned before
                            here, 160 Wh/mile is in the league with the GM EV-1 for impressive
                            fuel economy, which as far as I know has set the standard with 125
                            Wh/mile. OK, now let's see if Tom Gage can put some of these battery
                            packs into Scion conversions and make them affordable (close to ICE
                            car prices). I bet he will capture the market if he does, even if
                            the cars use only a 25 kWh battery pack and get 150 miles to a
                            charge.


                            --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                            > ACcording to his verbal presenation at the SoCal meeting, which you
                            can download
                            > from here (12 megabytes):
                            >
                            > http://www.herecomesmongo.com/files/
                            >
                            > @ 1300 Seconds or so (hard to hear):
                            >
                            > question: do you have any idea what sort of life to expect out of
                            the batteries?
                            >
                            > answer (roughly): 1. Manufacturer said expect 400 depth of
                            discharge cycles.
                            > 2. There is Annecdotal evidence that some of the
                            people who use
                            > these types of batteries say that depth of charge is more important
                            than depth
                            > of discharge. Charge them only to 90%, life increases
                            dramatically.... we're
                            > expecting more than 400 cycles....
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:52:47 -0000, you wrote:
                            >
                            > >Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak with for precise
                            details
                            > >on charging, but I thought it was mentioned that they used a 20 kW
                            > >charger to charge the tZero battery pack. Anyway, Li-ion and Li
                            > >polymer are light weight high power batteries and they are ideal
                            for
                            > >EVs. With proper charging one can get 500-1000 cycles from these
                            > >types of batteries and that is considerably more than the 300 or
                            so
                            > >cycles one can get from lead/acid batteries.
                            > >
                            > >If you look at the PDF Murdoch posted from AC propulsion you can
                            see
                            > >that the tZero went over 300 miles (302 miles) on a charge. It
                            got
                            > >like 160 Wh/mile fuel economy, which is excellent. So if we had
                            > >other vehicle platforms capable of this fuel economy and holding a
                            50
                            > >kWh battery pack we could see the same mileage figures. ANd I
                            think
                            > >many people would be happy with 150 mile range too. Hopefully
                            soon
                            > >Tom Gage will start building the conversions.
                            > >
                            > >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann Joseph" <goyogi@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > >> If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less would
                            > >> still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge (where
                            you
                            > >> get most of the charge back except the last 10-20%) would become
                            > >the
                            > >> regular charge. So it could be advertised as a 270 mpc car that
                            > >can
                            > >> be rapidly charged.
                            > >>
                            > >> Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with 90% charge) and has a
                            > >rapid
                            > >> recharge it would be good.
                            > >>
                            > >> But this is all speculation. We don't know if this is really
                            true
                            > >> or not. I do know that my laptop battery seems to hold less and
                            > >> less charge over the past 3 years that I've had this thing.
                            > >>
                            > >> > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they needed
                            to
                            > >> >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                            > >>
                            > >> >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                            > >> >>important,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            > >
                          • brandy10845
                            The work around to this problem was suggested. Put in enough battery for 2x your normal round trip say 90 miles, total range then actually being 180-200mi.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The work around to this problem was suggested. Put in enough battery
                              for 2x your normal round trip say 90 miles, total range then actually
                              being 180-200mi. Have a button that you push to give a range
                              extension, and reset back normal. Pricey option but easy to do.

                              -- Brandy


                              --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "ntsl532" <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                              > I have heard that Li-ion batteries go about 500 cycles, so 400
                              makes
                              > sense. Under high load or discharge the number of cycles will be
                              > less. Trying to get a commitment from the manufacturer for an
                              actual
                              > number of cycles is difficult. The company I mentioned earlier
                              that
                              > markets the Li-polymer batteries (Everspring) said they can get
                              1100
                              > cycles, but this assumes 60% DOD(depth of discharge). If you go to
                              > 70% DOD then the number changes to 500 or more. Still, in this way
                              > anyway the Li-polymer seeem superior to Li-ion.
                              >
                              > Charging methods and discharging methods will both damage a battery
                              > if not done according to the manufacturers recommnedations, however
                              > it often seems assumed that the user will follow the instructions
                              for
                              > charging. But the way a battery is used (discharged)varies
                              > tremendously so we seem to hear more about that as far as damaging
                              > the battery. But both are important for battery life longevity.
                              >
                              > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                              > > ACcording to his verbal presenation at the SoCal meeting, which
                              you
                              > can download
                              > > from here (12 megabytes):
                              > >
                              > > http://www.herecomesmongo.com/files/
                              > >
                              > > @ 1300 Seconds or so (hard to hear):
                              > >
                              > > question: do you have any idea what sort of life to expect out of
                              > the batteries?
                              > >
                              > > answer (roughly): 1. Manufacturer said expect 400 depth of
                              > discharge cycles.
                              > > 2. There is Annecdotal evidence that some of the
                              > people who use
                              > > these types of batteries say that depth of charge is more
                              important
                              > than depth
                              > > of discharge. Charge them only to 90%, life increases
                              > dramatically.... we're
                              > > expecting more than 400 cycles....
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:52:47 -0000, you wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak with for precise
                              > details
                              > > >on charging, but I thought it was mentioned that they used a 20
                              kW
                              > > >charger to charge the tZero battery pack. Anyway, Li-ion and Li
                              > > >polymer are light weight high power batteries and they are ideal
                              > for
                              > > >EVs. With proper charging one can get 500-1000 cycles from
                              these
                              > > >types of batteries and that is considerably more than the 300 or
                              > so
                              > > >cycles one can get from lead/acid batteries.
                              > > >
                              > > >If you look at the PDF Murdoch posted from AC propulsion you can
                              > see
                              > > >that the tZero went over 300 miles (302 miles) on a charge. It
                              > got
                              > > >like 160 Wh/mile fuel economy, which is excellent. So if we
                              had
                              > > >other vehicle platforms capable of this fuel economy and holding
                              a
                              > 50
                              > > >kWh battery pack we could see the same mileage figures. ANd I
                              > think
                              > > >many people would be happy with 150 mile range too. Hopefully
                              > soon
                              > > >Tom Gage will start building the conversions.
                              > > >
                              > > >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann Joseph" <goyogi@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > >> If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less
                              would
                              > > >> still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge (where
                              > you
                              > > >> get most of the charge back except the last 10-20%) would
                              become
                              > > >the
                              > > >> regular charge. So it could be advertised as a 270 mpc car
                              that
                              > > >can
                              > > >> be rapidly charged.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with 90% charge) and has a
                              > > >rapid
                              > > >> recharge it would be good.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> But this is all speculation. We don't know if this is really
                              > true
                              > > >> or not. I do know that my laptop battery seems to hold less
                              and
                              > > >> less charge over the past 3 years that I've had this thing.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they
                              needed
                              > to
                              > > >> >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                              > > >> >>important,
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                            • ntsl532
                              At least if one uses Li batteries the weight would not limit one from adding additional capicity above 90 miles, bu the cost for these batteries is still
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                At least if one uses Li batteries the weight would not limit one from
                                adding additional capicity above 90 miles, bu the cost for these
                                batteries is still rather high. So perhaps letting them degrade
                                faster in hopes the price will decline before the pack is used up
                                might be preferred. It depends on where one expects the price of
                                batteries to go. Anyway, thanks for the proposal.


                                --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "brandy10845" <brandy_1@c...> wrote:
                                > The work around to this problem was suggested. Put in enough
                                battery
                                > for 2x your normal round trip say 90 miles, total range then
                                actually
                                > being 180-200mi. Have a button that you push to give a range
                                > extension, and reset back normal. Pricey option but easy to do.
                                >
                                > -- Brandy
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "ntsl532" <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                                > > I have heard that Li-ion batteries go about 500 cycles, so 400
                                > makes
                                > > sense. Under high load or discharge the number of cycles will be
                                > > less. Trying to get a commitment from the manufacturer for an
                                > actual
                                > > number of cycles is difficult. The company I mentioned earlier
                                > that
                                > > markets the Li-polymer batteries (Everspring) said they can get
                                > 1100
                                > > cycles, but this assumes 60% DOD(depth of discharge). If you go
                                to
                                > > 70% DOD then the number changes to 500 or more. Still, in this
                                way
                                > > anyway the Li-polymer seeem superior to Li-ion.
                                > >
                                > > Charging methods and discharging methods will both damage a
                                battery
                                > > if not done according to the manufacturers recommnedations,
                                however
                                > > it often seems assumed that the user will follow the instructions
                                > for
                                > > charging. But the way a battery is used (discharged)varies
                                > > tremendously so we seem to hear more about that as far as
                                damaging
                                > > the battery. But both are important for battery life longevity.
                                > >
                                > > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                                > > > ACcording to his verbal presenation at the SoCal meeting, which
                                > you
                                > > can download
                                > > > from here (12 megabytes):
                                > > >
                                > > > http://www.herecomesmongo.com/files/
                                > > >
                                > > > @ 1300 Seconds or so (hard to hear):
                                > > >
                                > > > question: do you have any idea what sort of life to expect out
                                of
                                > > the batteries?
                                > > >
                                > > > answer (roughly): 1. Manufacturer said expect 400 depth of
                                > > discharge cycles.
                                > > > 2. There is Annecdotal evidence that some of the
                                > > people who use
                                > > > these types of batteries say that depth of charge is more
                                > important
                                > > than depth
                                > > > of discharge. Charge them only to 90%, life increases
                                > > dramatically.... we're
                                > > > expecting more than 400 cycles....
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:52:47 -0000, you wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > >Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak with for precise
                                > > details
                                > > > >on charging, but I thought it was mentioned that they used a
                                20
                                > kW
                                > > > >charger to charge the tZero battery pack. Anyway, Li-ion and
                                Li
                                > > > >polymer are light weight high power batteries and they are
                                ideal
                                > > for
                                > > > >EVs. With proper charging one can get 500-1000 cycles from
                                > these
                                > > > >types of batteries and that is considerably more than the 300
                                or
                                > > so
                                > > > >cycles one can get from lead/acid batteries.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >If you look at the PDF Murdoch posted from AC propulsion you
                                can
                                > > see
                                > > > >that the tZero went over 300 miles (302 miles) on a charge.
                                It
                                > > got
                                > > > >like 160 Wh/mile fuel economy, which is excellent. So if we
                                > had
                                > > > >other vehicle platforms capable of this fuel economy and
                                holding
                                > a
                                > > 50
                                > > > >kWh battery pack we could see the same mileage figures. ANd I
                                > > think
                                > > > >many people would be happy with 150 mile range too. Hopefully
                                > > soon
                                > > > >Tom Gage will start building the conversions.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann Joseph" <goyogi@y...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > >> If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged then 10% less
                                > would
                                > > > >> still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a fast charge
                                (where
                                > > you
                                > > > >> get most of the charge back except the last 10-20%) would
                                > become
                                > > > >the
                                > > > >> regular charge. So it could be advertised as a 270 mpc car
                                > that
                                > > > >can
                                > > > >> be rapidly charged.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with 90% charge) and has
                                a
                                > > > >rapid
                                > > > >> recharge it would be good.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> But this is all speculation. We don't know if this is
                                really
                                > > true
                                > > > >> or not. I do know that my laptop battery seems to hold less
                                > and
                                > > > >> less charge over the past 3 years that I've had this thing.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He indicated they
                                > needed
                                > > to
                                > > > >> >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> >> of the pack. I think he said that not "topping off" was
                                > > > >> >>important,
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > >evworld-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                              • James Wilson
                                Is this the same batterys as the Zebra?? The Z5 battery can be configured to 4 chains giving an OCV of 139.3V. The spec details are all prorated from the 2
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Is this the same batterys as the Zebra?? The Z5
                                  battery can be configured to 4 chains giving an OCV of
                                  139.3V. The spec details are all prorated from the 2
                                  chain info you have. The cost is the same, using a �
                                  to $ conversion ~1.67 the cost with cooling and
                                  management system will be about $14200. The prices
                                  come down considerably as the number goes up but I'm
                                  afraid for one offs may seem expensive.
                                  for a 139volt 152amp hr. pack. Nice chap if you wish
                                  to contact him,his e-mail is: artilley@...
                                  James Wilson



                                  --- ntsl532 <ntsl532@...> wrote:
                                  > At least if one uses Li batteries the weight would
                                  > not limit one from
                                  > adding additional capicity above 90 miles, bu the
                                  > cost for these
                                  > batteries is still rather high. So perhaps letting
                                  > them degrade
                                  > faster in hopes the price will decline before the
                                  > pack is used up
                                  > might be preferred. It depends on where one expects
                                  > the price of
                                  > batteries to go. Anyway, thanks for the proposal.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "brandy10845"
                                  > <brandy_1@c...> wrote:
                                  > > The work around to this problem was suggested.
                                  > Put in enough
                                  > battery
                                  > > for 2x your normal round trip say 90 miles, total
                                  > range then
                                  > actually
                                  > > being 180-200mi. Have a button that you push to
                                  > give a range
                                  > > extension, and reset back normal. Pricey option
                                  > but easy to do.
                                  > >
                                  > > -- Brandy
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "ntsl532"
                                  > <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > I have heard that Li-ion batteries go about 500
                                  > cycles, so 400
                                  > > makes
                                  > > > sense. Under high load or discharge the number
                                  > of cycles will be
                                  > > > less. Trying to get a commitment from the
                                  > manufacturer for an
                                  > > actual
                                  > > > number of cycles is difficult. The company I
                                  > mentioned earlier
                                  > > that
                                  > > > markets the Li-polymer batteries (Everspring)
                                  > said they can get
                                  > > 1100
                                  > > > cycles, but this assumes 60% DOD(depth of
                                  > discharge). If you go
                                  > to
                                  > > > 70% DOD then the number changes to 500 or more.
                                  > Still, in this
                                  > way
                                  > > > anyway the Li-polymer seeem superior to Li-ion.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Charging methods and discharging methods will
                                  > both damage a
                                  > battery
                                  > > > if not done according to the manufacturers
                                  > recommnedations,
                                  > however
                                  > > > it often seems assumed that the user will follow
                                  > the instructions
                                  > > for
                                  > > > charging. But the way a battery is used
                                  > (discharged)varies
                                  > > > tremendously so we seem to hear more about that
                                  > as far as
                                  > damaging
                                  > > > the battery. But both are important for battery
                                  > life longevity.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch
                                  > <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                                  > > > > ACcording to his verbal presenation at the
                                  > SoCal meeting, which
                                  > > you
                                  > > > can download
                                  > > > > from here (12 megabytes):
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > http://www.herecomesmongo.com/files/
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > @ 1300 Seconds or so (hard to hear):
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > question: do you have any idea what sort of
                                  > life to expect out
                                  > of
                                  > > > the batteries?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > answer (roughly): 1. Manufacturer said expect
                                  > 400 depth of
                                  > > > discharge cycles.
                                  > > > > 2. There is Annecdotal evidence that some
                                  > of the
                                  > > > people who use
                                  > > > > these types of batteries say that depth of
                                  > charge is more
                                  > > important
                                  > > > than depth
                                  > > > > of discharge. Charge them only to 90%, life
                                  > increases
                                  > > > dramatically.... we're
                                  > > > > expecting more than 400 cycles....
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:52:47 -0000, you wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > >Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak
                                  > with for precise
                                  > > > details
                                  > > > > >on charging, but I thought it was mentioned
                                  > that they used a
                                  > 20
                                  > > kW
                                  > > > > >charger to charge the tZero battery pack.
                                  > Anyway, Li-ion and
                                  > Li
                                  > > > > >polymer are light weight high power batteries
                                  > and they are
                                  > ideal
                                  > > > for
                                  > > > > >EVs. With proper charging one can get
                                  > 500-1000 cycles from
                                  > > these
                                  > > > > >types of batteries and that is considerably
                                  > more than the 300
                                  > or
                                  > > > so
                                  > > > > >cycles one can get from lead/acid batteries.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >If you look at the PDF Murdoch posted from AC
                                  > propulsion you
                                  > can
                                  > > > see
                                  > > > > >that the tZero went over 300 miles (302
                                  > miles) on a charge.
                                  > It
                                  > > > got
                                  > > > > >like 160 Wh/mile fuel economy, which is
                                  > excellent. So if we
                                  > > had
                                  > > > > >other vehicle platforms capable of this fuel
                                  > economy and
                                  > holding
                                  > > a
                                  > > > 50
                                  > > > > >kWh battery pack we could see the same
                                  > mileage figures. ANd I
                                  > > > think
                                  > > > > >many people would be happy with 150 mile
                                  > range too. Hopefully
                                  > > > soon
                                  > > > > >Tom Gage will start building the conversions.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann
                                  > Joseph" <goyogi@y...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >> If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged
                                  > then 10% less
                                  > > would
                                  > > > > >> still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a
                                  > fast charge
                                  > (where
                                  > > > you
                                  > > > > >> get most of the charge back except the last
                                  > 10-20%) would
                                  > > become
                                  > > > > >the
                                  > > > > >> regular charge. So it could be advertised
                                  > as a 270 mpc car
                                  > > that
                                  > > > > >can
                                  > > > > >> be rapidly charged.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with
                                  > 90% charge) and has
                                  > a
                                  > > > > >rapid
                                  > > > > >> recharge it would be good.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> But this is all speculation. We don't know
                                  > if this is
                                  > really
                                  > > > true
                                  > > > > >> or not. I do know that my laptop battery
                                  > seems to hold less
                                  > > and
                                  > > > > >> less charge over the past 3 years that I've
                                  > had this thing.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He
                                  > indicated they
                                  > > needed
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > > >> >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> >> of the pack. I think he said that not
                                  > "topping off" was
                                  > > > > >> >>important,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  >
                                  === message truncated ===


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                                • ntsl532
                                  I do not know the answer to this question. Somehow I doubt it is, but I am not familiar with what Zebra used. I heard the company is out of business now. Is
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I do not know the answer to this question. Somehow I doubt it is,
                                    but I am not familiar with what Zebra used. I heard the company is
                                    out of business now. Is this true? I do not think the Everspring
                                    batteries require power management because the batteries ar enot
                                    prone to explosion during high discharge or do they suffer much under
                                    reduced temperatures. This can save a lot of money.

                                    --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, James Wilson <jrem2@y...> wrote:
                                    > Is this the same batterys as the Zebra?? The Z5
                                    > battery can be configured to 4 chains giving an OCV of
                                    > 139.3V. The spec details are all prorated from the 2
                                    > chain info you have. The cost is the same, using a £
                                    > to $ conversion ~1.67 the cost with cooling and
                                    > management system will be about $14200. The prices
                                    > come down considerably as the number goes up but I'm
                                    > afraid for one offs may seem expensive.
                                    > for a 139volt 152amp hr. pack. Nice chap if you wish
                                    > to contact him,his e-mail is: artilley@b...
                                    > James Wilson
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- ntsl532 <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                                    > > At least if one uses Li batteries the weight would
                                    > > not limit one from
                                    > > adding additional capicity above 90 miles, bu the
                                    > > cost for these
                                    > > batteries is still rather high. So perhaps letting
                                    > > them degrade
                                    > > faster in hopes the price will decline before the
                                    > > pack is used up
                                    > > might be preferred. It depends on where one expects
                                    > > the price of
                                    > > batteries to go. Anyway, thanks for the proposal.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "brandy10845"
                                    > > <brandy_1@c...> wrote:
                                    > > > The work around to this problem was suggested.
                                    > > Put in enough
                                    > > battery
                                    > > > for 2x your normal round trip say 90 miles, total
                                    > > range then
                                    > > actually
                                    > > > being 180-200mi. Have a button that you push to
                                    > > give a range
                                    > > > extension, and reset back normal. Pricey option
                                    > > but easy to do.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -- Brandy
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "ntsl532"
                                    > > <ntsl532@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > > I have heard that Li-ion batteries go about 500
                                    > > cycles, so 400
                                    > > > makes
                                    > > > > sense. Under high load or discharge the number
                                    > > of cycles will be
                                    > > > > less. Trying to get a commitment from the
                                    > > manufacturer for an
                                    > > > actual
                                    > > > > number of cycles is difficult. The company I
                                    > > mentioned earlier
                                    > > > that
                                    > > > > markets the Li-polymer batteries (Everspring)
                                    > > said they can get
                                    > > > 1100
                                    > > > > cycles, but this assumes 60% DOD(depth of
                                    > > discharge). If you go
                                    > > to
                                    > > > > 70% DOD then the number changes to 500 or more.
                                    > > Still, in this
                                    > > way
                                    > > > > anyway the Li-polymer seeem superior to Li-ion.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Charging methods and discharging methods will
                                    > > both damage a
                                    > > battery
                                    > > > > if not done according to the manufacturers
                                    > > recommnedations,
                                    > > however
                                    > > > > it often seems assumed that the user will follow
                                    > > the instructions
                                    > > > for
                                    > > > > charging. But the way a battery is used
                                    > > (discharged)varies
                                    > > > > tremendously so we seem to hear more about that
                                    > > as far as
                                    > > damaging
                                    > > > > the battery. But both are important for battery
                                    > > life longevity.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, murdoch
                                    > > <murdoch@h...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > ACcording to his verbal presenation at the
                                    > > SoCal meeting, which
                                    > > > you
                                    > > > > can download
                                    > > > > > from here (12 megabytes):
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > http://www.herecomesmongo.com/files/
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > @ 1300 Seconds or so (hard to hear):
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > question: do you have any idea what sort of
                                    > > life to expect out
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > the batteries?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > answer (roughly): 1. Manufacturer said expect
                                    > > 400 depth of
                                    > > > > discharge cycles.
                                    > > > > > 2. There is Annecdotal evidence that some
                                    > > of the
                                    > > > > people who use
                                    > > > > > these types of batteries say that depth of
                                    > > charge is more
                                    > > > important
                                    > > > > than depth
                                    > > > > > of discharge. Charge them only to 90%, life
                                    > > increases
                                    > > > > dramatically.... we're
                                    > > > > > expecting more than 400 cycles....
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:52:47 -0000, you wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >Well, I guess Tom Gage is the one to speak
                                    > > with for precise
                                    > > > > details
                                    > > > > > >on charging, but I thought it was mentioned
                                    > > that they used a
                                    > > 20
                                    > > > kW
                                    > > > > > >charger to charge the tZero battery pack.
                                    > > Anyway, Li-ion and
                                    > > Li
                                    > > > > > >polymer are light weight high power batteries
                                    > > and they are
                                    > > ideal
                                    > > > > for
                                    > > > > > >EVs. With proper charging one can get
                                    > > 500-1000 cycles from
                                    > > > these
                                    > > > > > >types of batteries and that is considerably
                                    > > more than the 300
                                    > > or
                                    > > > > so
                                    > > > > > >cycles one can get from lead/acid batteries.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >If you look at the PDF Murdoch posted from AC
                                    > > propulsion you
                                    > > can
                                    > > > > see
                                    > > > > > >that the tZero went over 300 miles (302
                                    > > miles) on a charge.
                                    > > It
                                    > > > > got
                                    > > > > > >like 160 Wh/mile fuel economy, which is
                                    > > excellent. So if we
                                    > > > had
                                    > > > > > >other vehicle platforms capable of this fuel
                                    > > economy and
                                    > > holding
                                    > > > a
                                    > > > > 50
                                    > > > > > >kWh battery pack we could see the same
                                    > > mileage figures. ANd I
                                    > > > > think
                                    > > > > > >many people would be happy with 150 mile
                                    > > range too. Hopefully
                                    > > > > soon
                                    > > > > > >Tom Gage will start building the conversions.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >--- In evworld@yahoogroups.com, "Johann
                                    > > Joseph" <goyogi@y...>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > >> If the pack can go ~300 miles fully charged
                                    > > then 10% less
                                    > > > would
                                    > > > > > >> still be 270 miles which is great. Plus a
                                    > > fast charge
                                    > > (where
                                    > > > > you
                                    > > > > > >> get most of the charge back except the last
                                    > > 10-20%) would
                                    > > > become
                                    > > > > > >the
                                    > > > > > >> regular charge. So it could be advertised
                                    > > as a 270 mpc car
                                    > > > that
                                    > > > > > >can
                                    > > > > > >> be rapidly charged.
                                    > > > > > >>
                                    > > > > > >> Even if it only does 150 miles (135 with
                                    > > 90% charge) and has
                                    > > a
                                    > > > > > >rapid
                                    > > > > > >> recharge it would be good.
                                    > > > > > >>
                                    > > > > > >> But this is all speculation. We don't know
                                    > > if this is
                                    > > really
                                    > > > > true
                                    > > > > > >> or not. I do know that my laptop battery
                                    > > seems to hold less
                                    > > > and
                                    > > > > > >> less charge over the past 3 years that I've
                                    > > had this thing.
                                    > > > > > >>
                                    > > > > > >> > I spoke with Tom Gage the other day. He
                                    > > indicated they
                                    > > > needed
                                    > > > > to
                                    > > > > > >> >be careful about 90% state of charge.
                                    > > > > > >>
                                    > > > > > >> >> of the pack. I think he said that not
                                    > > "topping off" was
                                    > > > > > >> >>important,
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > >
                                    > === message truncated ===
                                    >
                                    >
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