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Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] MIT Energy St orage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

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  • Lee Dekker
    Looks like no more then an improved way to make hydrogen. The storage, transportation and conversion issues associated with hydrogen appear to remain
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 3, 2009
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      Looks like no more then an improved way to make hydrogen. The storage, transportation and conversion issues associated with hydrogen appear to remain unchanged.

      You can't make gasoline on your roof.


      --- On Sat, 1/3/09, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:

      > From: murdoch <murdoch@...>
      > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power
      > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 8:46 AM
      > repost to be careful about copyrighted material.
      >
      > [Default] On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:36:13 -0000,
      > "shane_digital"
      > <shane_digital@...> wrote:
      >
      > >MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to
      > `Unlimited' Solar Power
      > >
      > >Written by Andrew Williams
      > >Published on October 25th, 2008
      > >4 Comments
      > >Posted in solar energy
      > >
      > >Researchers at Massachusetts Institute of Technology
      > (MIT) have
      > >discovered a new way of storing energy from sunlight
      > that could lead
      > >to `unlimited' solar power.
      >
      > [...]
      >
      > >http://cleantechnica.com/2008/10/25/mit-energy-storage-discovery-could-lead-to-unlimited-solar-power/
    • k9zeh
      In items I submitted in the past, my idea was to use photovoltaic cells to generate electricity, store surplus energy by using the direct current from the PV
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 3, 2009
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        In items I submitted in the past, my idea was to use photovoltaic
        cells to generate electricity, store surplus energy by using the
        direct current from the PV cells to create hydrogen and oxygen by
        electrolysis, and pump it into tanks. At night, the stored H2 and O2
        are recombined either in fuel celld or in gas turbine engines to
        generate electricity when the sun is set. The DC then powers motors
        that turn AC generators that feed the power grid.

        This is the future vision I have. I hope Mr. Obama can do his part
        to get a pilot program going soon to prove it as worthwhile and
        encourage the power industry to use this approach to generate
        electrical power that is cheap to generate, even if the front end
        capital investment is large.

        As for the H2 safety issues, these plants can be built far from
        populated areas and conform to standards for storing volatile gases.

        Rich


        --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, murdoch
        <murdoch@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > repost to be careful about copyrighted material.
        >
        > [Default] On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:36:13 -0000, "shane_digital"
        > <shane_digital@...> wrote:
        >
        > >MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to `Unlimited' Solar Power
        > >
        > >Written by Andrew Williams
        > >Published on October 25th, 2008
        > >4 Comments
        > >Posted in solar energy
        > >
        > >Researchers at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) have
        > >discovered a new way of storing energy from sunlight that could
        lead
        > >to `unlimited' solar power.
        >
        > [...]
        >
        > >http://cleantechnica.com/2008/10/25/mit-energy-storage-discovery-
        could-lead-to-unlimited-solar-power/
        >
      • murdoch
        I have always thought that to some extent the answer is in front of us, in the form of simple hydrocarbons and alcohols and the like. They are more easily
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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          I have always thought that to some extent the answer is in front of
          us, in the form of simple hydrocarbons and alcohols and the like. They
          are more easily stored than Hydrogen.

          Would it be impossible to solar energy not into the form of hydrogen
          but into those simple molecules, as nature ultimately does with
          photosynthesis? Aren't such molecules a way to store some of the
          energy we are thinking of when we see energy stored in H2?



          [Default] On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 09:52:07 -0800 (PST), Lee Dekker
          <heprv@...> wrote:

          >Looks like no more then an improved way to make hydrogen. The storage, transportation and conversion issues associated with hydrogen appear to remain unchanged.
          >
          >You can't make gasoline on your roof.
          >
          >
          >--- On Sat, 1/3/09, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
          >
          >> From: murdoch <murdoch@...>
          >> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power
          >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
          >> Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 8:46 AM
          >> repost to be careful about copyrighted material.
          >>
          >> [Default] On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:36:13 -0000,
          >> "shane_digital"
          >> <shane_digital@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> >MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to
          >> `Unlimited' Solar Power
          >> >
          >> >Written by Andrew Williams
          >> >Published on October 25th, 2008
          >> >4 Comments
          >> >Posted in solar energy
          >> >
          >> >Researchers at Massachusetts Institute of Technology
          >> (MIT) have
          >> >discovered a new way of storing energy from sunlight
          >> that could lead
          >> >to `unlimited' solar power.
          >>
          >> [...]
          >>
          >> >http://cleantechnica.com/2008/10/25/mit-energy-storage-discovery-could-lead-to-unlimited-solar-power/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Randy Juras
          The next phase of development, or basic research, would be to find a way to duplicate nature. It could easily be a much more efficient way to move energy in
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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            The next phase of development, or basic research, would be to find a
            way to duplicate nature. It could easily be a much more efficient way
            to move energy in and out of a stored mode.

            But for right now, to move forward with getting off of fossil fuels, I
            can see direct conversion of water into hydrogen using solar energy.

            Another aspect of all this is the real need for a Smart grid.

            I believe Obama has made mention of this need in his election. If so,
            using all renewable energy processes will become easier and less costly.

            Randy

            --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, murdoch
            <murdoch@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I have always thought that to some extent the answer is in front of
            > us, in the form of simple hydrocarbons and alcohols and the like. They
            > are more easily stored than Hydrogen.
            >
            > Would it be impossible to solar energy not into the form of hydrogen
            > but into those simple molecules, as nature ultimately does with
            > photosynthesis? Aren't such molecules a way to store some of the
            > energy we are thinking of when we see energy stored in H2?
            >
            >
            >
            > [Default] On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 09:52:07 -0800 (PST), Lee Dekker
            > <heprv@...> wrote:
            >
            > >Looks like no more then an improved way to make hydrogen. The
            storage, transportation and conversion issues associated with hydrogen
            appear to remain unchanged.
            > >
            > >You can't make gasoline on your roof.
            > >
            > >
            > >--- On Sat, 1/3/09, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >> From: murdoch <murdoch@...>
            > >> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] MIT Energy Storage
            Discovery Could Lead to `Unlimited' Solar Power
            > >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
            > >> Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 8:46 AM
            > >> repost to be careful about copyrighted material.
            > >>
            > >> [Default] On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:36:13 -0000,
            > >> "shane_digital"
            > >> <shane_digital@...> wrote:
            > >>
            > >> >MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to
            > >> `Unlimited' Solar Power
            > >> >
            > >> >Written by Andrew Williams
            > >> >Published on October 25th, 2008
            > >> >4 Comments
            > >> >Posted in solar energy
            > >> >
            > >> >Researchers at Massachusetts Institute of Technology
            > >> (MIT) have
            > >> >discovered a new way of storing energy from sunlight
            > >> that could lead
            > >> >to `unlimited' solar power.
            > >>
            > >> [...]
            > >>
            > >>
            >http://cleantechnica.com/2008/10/25/mit-energy-storage-discovery-could-lead-to-unlimited-solar-power/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >------------------------------------
            > >
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Joseph Lado
            Tiny bubbles. Do you all remember the song tiny bubbles? This discovery is indeed a big one, not tiny. All the storage problems are solved because hydrogen can
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
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              Tiny bubbles. Do you all remember the song tiny bubbles? This
              discovery is indeed a big one, not tiny. All the storage problems
              are solved because hydrogen can be extracted from water at a source
              of water through the use of a catalyst.

              cat•a•lyst (ktl-st)n. 1. Chemistry: A substance, usually used in
              small amounts relative to the reactants, that modifies and increases
              the rate of a reaction without being consumed in the process. ~The
              Free Dictionary by Farlex http://www.thefreedictionary.com/catalyst

              "without being consumed in the process" are the most important words
              in this. What does this mean? It means that hydrogen and more
              importantly oxygen are separated into two separate gasses when water
              (H2O) is placed in contact with the particular substance. And, most
              importantly the particular substance doesn't get consumed in the
              reaction so it will keep separating water into hydrogen and oxygen
              continuously and indefinitely. It would keep going and going and
              going.

              Currently our situation is that we generate electricity with
              photovoltaics during the day when we don't need artificial light and
              at night we use electricity and storage, even with batteries,
              becomes a problem. This way we make hydrogen and oxygen during the
              day and make electricity when ever we need it using a fuel cell from
              the hydrogen and oxygen.

              It also solved the transmission losses problem too. We now try to
              transmit electricity over aluminum wire long distances. Over the
              miles a large portion of the electricity becomes heat, radio waves
              and escaped electromagnetic field. So in reality you can't send
              solar energy made in the desert southwest to the highly populated
              North East over wire. You can, however, send hydrogen from the
              Southwest to the Northeast in a pipe with out serious transmission
              losses. You would have to watch for pinholes and the like, so there
              would have to be some development there, but hydrogen is already
              transported through pipe by refineries and natural gas reformers in
              some industrial applications. It is not new.

              In transportation is where we might see a problem. It depends on how
              virulent the reaction is. For example, if you take hydrogen
              peroxide, yes the stuff we use as a disinfectant, only in a purer
              form. (We currently use only 3% hydrogen peroxide solution for
              disinfection.) And you put it through a screen of silver or
              titanium, the resulting steam's thrust is powerful enough to lift a
              person off the ground and keep them in the air until the hydrogen
              peroxide runs out. Jet packs are typically powered by hydrogen
              peroxide and typically only carry less than a minutes worth of the
              fuel. If the catalytic reaction were that powerful, producing lots
              of hydrogen from water then the storage question would be how much
              water would you need to power the car. If the production from water
              is virulent could the hydrogen be used in an internal combustion
              engine where water is stored in what used to be the gasoline tank?
              Would employing a fuel cell allow for much greater range since fuel
              cells and electric motors are so much more efficient that internal
              combustion engines or would fuel cell vehicles make even a
              relatively week production of hydrogen from the catalyst usable?

              At this point the reaction is very weak from what I can see, only
              tiny bubbles. And the reaction seems to need an assist from added
              electricity at this moment, 1/3rd the electricity of electrolysis
              but energy never the less. So it is difficult to say what this new
              discovery means. Hydrogen from water is infinitely more preferable a
              fuel than using any fossil fuel. I am looking forward to seeing more
              about this development. Batteries currently are my number one choice
              in my mind for transportation, batteries with an internal combustion
              engine or fuel cell that is relegated to only being used for long
              distances, but if that engine or fuel cell could be powered by
              hydrogen made from water through a catalyst that uses sunlight as a
              means to split the molecule instead of using gasoline where the
              hydrogen is derived from water on board, I would have to seriously
              consider it.

              ~ Joe the Analyst

              --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Juras"
              <rcjuras@...> wrote:
              > But for right now, to move forward with getting off of fossil
              fuels, I
              > can see direct conversion of water into hydrogen using solar
              energy.
              >
              > Another aspect of all this is the real need for a Smart grid.
              >
              > I believe Obama has made mention of this need in his election. If
              so,
              > using all renewable energy processes will become easier and less
              costly.
              >
              > Randy
              >
              > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, murdoch
              > <murdoch@> wrote:
              > > I have always thought that to some extent the answer is in front
              of
              > > us, in the form of simple hydrocarbons and alcohols and the
              like. They are more easily stored than Hydrogen.
              > >
              > > Would it be impossible to solar energy not into the form of
              hydrogen
              > > but into those simple molecules, as nature ultimately does with
              > > photosynthesis? Aren't such molecules a way to store some of the
              > > energy we are thinking of when we see energy stored in H2?

              > > >Looks like no more then an improved way to make hydrogen. The
              > storage, transportation and conversion issues associated with
              hydrogen
              > appear to remain unchanged.
              > > >
              > > >You can't make gasoline on your roof.
            • Lee Dekker
              Murdock, you are very nice. Your suggestion is logical positive and hopeful. I am not so nice, and hope I am wrong. My bet is that if you managed to get the
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 5, 2009
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                Murdock, you are very nice. Your suggestion is logical positive and hopeful. I am not so nice, and hope I'am wrong.

                My bet is that if you managed to get the "Hydrogen will save us" people to look long and hard at hydrogen's storage, transportation and conversion issues, they would actually be more convinced that hydrogen is the ticket. Also my guess that they would be annoyed at your attempt to point out that they may be barking up the wrong tree.

                But since current conditions my turn out more like the revolution then the great depression, all such talk may be just talk.


                You can't make gasoline on your roof, but if you could or if you could make any of the types of liquid fuels you mention, it would be a hell of a lot more helpful then making hydrogen up there.


                --- On Sun, 1/4/09, murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:

                > From: murdoch <murdoch@...>
                > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power
                > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 1:37 AM
                > I have always thought that to some extent the answer is in
                > front of
                > us, in the form of simple hydrocarbons and alcohols and the
                > like. They
                > are more easily stored than Hydrogen.
                >
                > Would it be impossible to solar energy not into the form of
                > hydrogen
                > but into those simple molecules, as nature ultimately does
                > with
                > photosynthesis? Aren't such molecules a way to store
                > some of the
                > energy we are thinking of when we see energy stored in H2?
                >
                >
                >
                > [Default] On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 09:52:07 -0800 (PST), Lee
                > Dekker
                > <heprv@...> wrote:
                >
                > >Looks like no more then an improved way to make
                > hydrogen. The storage, transportation and conversion issues
                > associated with hydrogen appear to remain unchanged.
                > >
                > >You can't make gasoline on your roof.
                > >
                > >
                > >--- On Sat, 1/3/09, murdoch
                > <murdoch@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >> From: murdoch <murdoch@...>
                > >> Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] MIT
                > Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar
                > Power
                > >> To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                > >> Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 8:46 AM
                > >> repost to be careful about copyrighted material.
                > >>
                > >> [Default] On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:36:13 -0000,
                > >> "shane_digital"
                > >> <shane_digital@...> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> >MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to
                > >> `Unlimited' Solar Power
                > >> >
                > >> >Written by Andrew Williams
                > >> >Published on October 25th, 2008
                > >> >4 Comments
                > >> >Posted in solar energy
                > >> >
                > >> >Researchers at Massachusetts Institute of
                > Technology
                > >> (MIT) have
                > >> >discovered a new way of storing energy from
                > sunlight
                > >> that could lead
                > >> >to `unlimited' solar power.
                > >>
                > >> [...]
                > >>
                > >>
                > >http://cleantechnica.com/2008/10/25/mit-energy-storage-discovery-could-lead-to-unlimited-solar-power/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >------------------------------------
                > >
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
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