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Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] CARB and Road Taxes

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  • Robert Mills
    Interesting thought; Taxing the electric vehicle is not a new tax. It is the same tax that we are already paying by using gasoline that is automatically taxed
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
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      Interesting thought;

      Taxing the electric vehicle is not a new tax. It is the same tax that we are already paying by using gasoline that is automatically taxed at the pump but it does have one flaw that might make some noise.

      Most States are now collecting sales tax at the pump over and above road taxes and the road taxes are being sales taxed as part of the price. This portion has not been considered in my thoughts until your futuristic comment came up. You are right with the futuristic comment but there will be nothing new to the consumer that they are not already paying anyway.

      Also to be considered is the substancial savings available for those who have their own energy to fuel the car with anyway but are forbidden by law today because of smog rules.

      Remember as well that the gasoline today is seasonally re-formulated as well which is something else that we have to accept or walk with the heat value of the gasoline being lowered in the summer months for dealing with smog.

      from below;
      Corporate auto makers tend to think of themselves as above the law and clearly do not like being told what to do by a government body.

      I don't see that as an obstacle. Customer demand will by itself make corporations move faster than any laws on the books. If customers want it and it can be done, it will be done.
      Corporate America wants profits !!

      As for the States, I don't see any revenue loss involved with the electric car to the States. As a matter of fact, I see increased revenue to the States simply because cheap energy will generate more miles driven by the electric cars thus producing more tax revenue to the States and the Feds.

      Simply stated; people will use cars more if they are cheaper to run than staying home or using public transportation. Just like stores, the income of the individual will dictate the consumption of that individual at the store as well as the gas pump.

      Of course, the price of oil will drop as well if demand falls off and will correct itself to some degree beginning at the oil well head.

      Right now, oil companys have a bigger problem to deal with reguarding airline failures and thus the loss of fuel sales for them to consider. Aloha is already down and others will probably follow.

      The easiest path to this situation is to simply show government that they will still get their money "ON TIME AND FIRST" and you will see all resistance to this tax issue go away.

      This is why I suggested google or yahoo or both for this tax collection and distribution system. They are already in a position to deal with it and the computer in the car.

      As for the banker and his car payment issue, I just see a simplistic way for the electric vehicle but it can probably be added to the gasoline vehicle easily as well and "YES" google and yahoo could deal with it as well.

      The biggest item to watch out for is that of too many entitys have a way of turning that switch on and off in the car. That could create a fiasco in itself if too many entitys had access to it. Something to watch out for.

      Bob

      Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
      Being sloughed of is better then being maligned and crushed. Asking to have ourselves taxed and then presenting an untested, futuristic and invasive system to do the taxing is not the sort of plan people eagerly jump at.

      Corporate auto makers tend to think of themselves as above the law and clearly do not like being told what to do by a government body. Oil companies have spent a great deal of time and money sewing up the transportation sector so that the only real option is to buy their petroleum. After all that work setting the stage to reap record profits, we can guess why Oil companies aren’t keen to welcome competition from plug-ins.

      Plug-in advocates seem to have a pretty good handle on both the Auto makers and the Oil hawkers motivations but appear blind to the possibility that the state may have it’s own reasons to dislike plug-ins. But with State Governments strapped for cash, they can’t be expected to welcome anything that threatens their tax revenues.

      Since none of this is out in the open, it’s up the plug-in people to figure it out and convince themselves. Not easy to do but better then running into brick walls.


      Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote: That is exactly what I said 3 or 4 months ago and about 1.5 years ago. It was just sluffed off so I gave up.

      Now that we have car dealers wanting a "WHERE'S MY MONEY" switch as well as the States and the Feds screaming "WHERE'S MY MONEY FIRST", it just might be time to get google or yahoo involved with the manufacturers and solve the problem. I am sure they would welcome the revenue generated for themselves for being a tax collector and a payment collector at the same time.

      Government would probaly like this as well for collecting traffic and parking tickets using the same switch. OH "PLEASE" don't tell them or we will all be walking unless we can sue them if they are wrong!! I would love to have that done to me......

      Remember, ATM and Credit cards are instantly copable by google or yahoo or about anybody else in our so called modern world and they would control the "did you pay me" switch as well.

      The only thing I can think of is that the people must be warned and not stopped on the freeway. The ideal situation is to only allow the system to lock out if the ignition switch was turned off and the car could be determined to not be moving or we really have a safety problem to deal with.

      YES, America is almost ready to kill for their dollar bill but I don't think it is there yet. Maybe next year???

      We really shouldn't lock out a car even if it's got a money problem unless the computer can connect to wifi where it is locked out so the system can unlock itself if they get their money.

      If you think about it a little, just where would your car be over a course of 3 or 4 days that it could not connect to the internet while it is stopped and turned off using wifi?

      A rooftop or windshield antenna would reach most anything out there in my town and most rest stops now have internet available on the highways.

      If you have internet at home, add a WIFI Router or put cat5 cable in the garage to plug into if necessary would also suffice. The ethernet jack will probably be supplied by the factory anyway which means the tow truck and WIMAX would probably get it on the road again rather quickly.

      Tow trucks in my area can cover most anywhere with WIMAX and it will shortly be everywhere after Feb.17th of next year when they get the television broadcast band to themselves.

      That's 100% AT&T and Verizon according to the bid results of last week reported everywhere anybody would listen to on the news.

      This could and probably would come together all at the same time if someone would get on it.

      As for FREE energy to go with it, I am now seeing ads offering solar electric panels for roof top home installation that run the meter backwards during the day and you take it out at night and put it into your car. This means hydro power can serve the load if done at night.

      Yes, it is endless what can be done if we really want to do it. Even break "BIG OIL" from their grip as well.

      Bob

      Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
      That is cool. No one will like it at first but something like this is an essential step toward breaking up the unholy alliance of Big Auto, Big Oil and Big Gov.

      Organizations like CalCars and Plug in America are obviously powerless to make changes at the Gov. level. All the logic and pleading from people like James Woolsey changes nothing.

      Like it or not, CARB and friends just told Plug-in supporters around the globe to shut up and get back in line.

      Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote: Just found another way to deal with this as well.

      http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20080331/tc_usatoday/hightechgeardisablescarifborrowermissespayment

      The bank is looking at a way as well. This could satisfy both partys..

      Bob

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      ---------------------------------
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    • Lee Dekker
      There is certainly nothing new about death or taxes. But I still think the knee-jerk reaction of John Q. will be to see this EV tax as both a new and an
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        There is certainly nothing new about death or taxes. But I still think the knee-jerk reaction of John Q. will be to see this EV tax as both a new and an invasive encroachment by government. Once John Q. sees that he can save money on fuel bills, on maintenance and repair bills and even suck in less of his own exhaust fumes, he will be on board also.

        You're absolutely correct in your assessment of automakers motivations. If the public demands it and there's a profit to be made, automakers will be front and center. The Google / Yahoo plug-in tax experiment is a good idea because these companies are ideal to try it out and also because they are centered in the Silicon Valley which is trying to position itself as a renewable energy center.

        You're feeling that government will gladly accept plug-ins, once they know they will still get their money is probably also correct. Oil giants, auto giants and politicians have no inherent hatred of all things plug-in. They are basically pragmatic and will gravitate to profit/taxes wherever they can be had.

        Electric transportation and specifically plug-in vehicles of all kinds are at an interesting crossroads. The push for plug-ins from the bottom is gaining momentum and the push against plug-ins from the top is getting stale. As fuel bills continue to soar and more people begin to understand the advantages of electric transportation it will be difficult to stand in the way of the plug-in movement. If a fair and reliable taxation system for plug-ins can be devised, that will help eliminate what may be the biggest "hidden" roadblock to plug-in vehicles.

        On the other hand, as I recall, Bob and Lee were about the only two talking about this taxation issue in the past and appear to be the only two interested in it now.


        Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote: Interesting thought;

        Taxing the electric vehicle is not a new tax. It is the same tax that we are already paying by using gasoline that is automatically taxed at the pump but it does have one flaw that might make some noise.

        Most States are now collecting sales tax at the pump over and above road taxes and the road taxes are being sales taxed as part of the price. This portion has not been considered in my thoughts until your futuristic comment came up. You are right with the futuristic comment but there will be nothing new to the consumer that they are not already paying anyway.

        Also to be considered is the substancial savings available for those who have their own energy to fuel the car with anyway but are forbidden by law today because of smog rules.

        Remember as well that the gasoline today is seasonally re-formulated as well which is something else that we have to accept or walk with the heat value of the gasoline being lowered in the summer months for dealing with smog.

        from below;
        Corporate auto makers tend to think of themselves as above the law and clearly do not like being told what to do by a government body.

        I don't see that as an obstacle. Customer demand will by itself make corporations move faster than any laws on the books. If customers want it and it can be done, it will be done.
        Corporate America wants profits !!

        As for the States, I don't see any revenue loss involved with the electric car to the States. As a matter of fact, I see increased revenue to the States simply because cheap energy will generate more miles driven by the electric cars thus producing more tax revenue to the States and the Feds.

        Simply stated; people will use cars more if they are cheaper to run than staying home or using public transportation. Just like stores, the income of the individual will dictate the consumption of that individual at the store as well as the gas pump.

        Of course, the price of oil will drop as well if demand falls off and will correct itself to some degree beginning at the oil well head.

        Right now, oil companys have a bigger problem to deal with reguarding airline failures and thus the loss of fuel sales for them to consider. Aloha is already down and others will probably follow.

        The easiest path to this situation is to simply show government that they will still get their money "ON TIME AND FIRST" and you will see all resistance to this tax issue go away.

        This is why I suggested google or yahoo or both for this tax collection and distribution system. They are already in a position to deal with it and the computer in the car.

        As for the banker and his car payment issue, I just see a simplistic way for the electric vehicle but it can probably be added to the gasoline vehicle easily as well and "YES" google and yahoo could deal with it as well.

        The biggest item to watch out for is that of too many entitys have a way of turning that switch on and off in the car. That could create a fiasco in itself if too many entitys had access to it. Something to watch out for.

        Bob

        Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
        Being sloughed of is better then being maligned and crushed. Asking to have ourselves taxed and then presenting an untested, futuristic and invasive system to do the taxing is not the sort of plan people eagerly jump at.

        Corporate auto makers tend to think of themselves as above the law and clearly do not like being told what to do by a government body. Oil companies have spent a great deal of time and money sewing up the transportation sector so that the only real option is to buy their petroleum. After all that work setting the stage to reap record profits, we can guess why Oil companies aren’t keen to welcome competition from plug-ins.

        Plug-in advocates seem to have a pretty good handle on both the Auto makers and the Oil hawkers motivations but appear blind to the possibility that the state may have it’s own reasons to dislike plug-ins. But with State Governments strapped for cash, they can’t be expected to welcome anything that threatens their tax revenues.

        Since none of this is out in the open, it’s up the plug-in people to figure it out and convince themselves. Not easy to do but better then running into brick walls.

        Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote: That is exactly what I said 3 or 4 months ago and about 1.5 years ago. It was just sluffed off so I gave up.

        Now that we have car dealers wanting a "WHERE'S MY MONEY" switch as well as the States and the Feds screaming "WHERE'S MY MONEY FIRST", it just might be time to get google or yahoo involved with the manufacturers and solve the problem. I am sure they would welcome the revenue generated for themselves for being a tax collector and a payment collector at the same time.

        Government would probaly like this as well for collecting traffic and parking tickets using the same switch. OH "PLEASE" don't tell them or we will all be walking unless we can sue them if they are wrong!! I would love to have that done to me......

        Remember, ATM and Credit cards are instantly copable by google or yahoo or about anybody else in our so called modern world and they would control the "did you pay me" switch as well.

        The only thing I can think of is that the people must be warned and not stopped on the freeway. The ideal situation is to only allow the system to lock out if the ignition switch was turned off and the car could be determined to not be moving or we really have a safety problem to deal with.

        YES, America is almost ready to kill for their dollar bill but I don't think it is there yet. Maybe next year???

        We really shouldn't lock out a car even if it's got a money problem unless the computer can connect to wifi where it is locked out so the system can unlock itself if they get their money.

        If you think about it a little, just where would your car be over a course of 3 or 4 days that it could not connect to the internet while it is stopped and turned off using wifi?

        A rooftop or windshield antenna would reach most anything out there in my town and most rest stops now have internet available on the highways.

        If you have internet at home, add a WIFI Router or put cat5 cable in the garage to plug into if necessary would also suffice. The ethernet jack will probably be supplied by the factory anyway which means the tow truck and WIMAX would probably get it on the road again rather quickly.

        Tow trucks in my area can cover most anywhere with WIMAX and it will shortly be everywhere after Feb.17th of next year when they get the television broadcast band to themselves.

        That's 100% AT&T and Verizon according to the bid results of last week reported everywhere anybody would listen to on the news.

        This could and probably would come together all at the same time if someone would get on it.

        As for FREE energy to go with it, I am now seeing ads offering solar electric panels for roof top home installation that run the meter backwards during the day and you take it out at night and put it into your car. This means hydro power can serve the load if done at night.

        Yes, it is endless what can be done if we really want to do it. Even break "BIG OIL" from their grip as well.

        Bob

        Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
        That is cool. No one will like it at first but something like this is an essential step toward breaking up the unholy alliance of Big Auto, Big Oil and Big Gov.

        Organizations like CalCars and Plug in America are obviously powerless to make changes at the Gov. level. All the logic and pleading from people like James Woolsey changes nothing.

        Like it or not, CARB and friends just told Plug-in supporters around the globe to shut up and get back in line.

        Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote: Just found another way to deal with this as well.

        http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20080331/tc_usatoday/hightechgeardisablescarifborrowermissespayment

        The bank is looking at a way as well. This could satisfy both partys..

        Bob

        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ---------------------------------
        OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ---------------------------------
        Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ---------------------------------
        You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ---------------------------------
        You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

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      • Robert Mills
        Well, since we have solved the issue once again, let s wait and see what develops. Bob Lee Dekker wrote: There is certainly nothing new about
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Well, since we have solved the issue once again, let's wait and see what develops.

          Bob

          Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
          There is certainly nothing new about death or taxes. But I still think the knee-jerk reaction of John Q. will be to see this EV tax as both a new and an invasive encroachment by government. Once John Q. sees that he can save money on fuel bills, on maintenance and repair bills and even suck in less of his own exhaust fumes, he will be on board also.

          You're absolutely correct in your assessment of automakers motivations. If the public demands it and there's a profit to be made, automakers will be front and center. The Google / Yahoo plug-in tax experiment is a good idea because these companies are ideal to try it out and also because they are centered in the Silicon Valley which is trying to position itself as a renewable energy center.

          You're feeling that government will gladly accept plug-ins, once they know they will still get their money is probably also correct. Oil giants, auto giants and politicians have no inherent hatred of all things plug-in. They are basically pragmatic and will gravitate to profit/taxes wherever they can be had.

          Electric transportation and specifically plug-in vehicles of all kinds are at an interesting crossroads. The push for plug-ins from the bottom is gaining momentum and the push against plug-ins from the top is getting stale. As fuel bills continue to soar and more people begin to understand the advantages of electric transportation it will be difficult to stand in the way of the plug-in movement. If a fair and reliable taxation system for plug-ins can be devised, that will help eliminate what may be the biggest "hidden" roadblock to plug-in vehicles.

          On the other hand, as I recall, Bob and Lee were about the only two talking about this taxation issue in the past and appear to be the only two interested in it now.


          Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote: Interesting thought;

          Taxing the electric vehicle is not a new tax. It is the same tax that we are already paying by using gasoline that is automatically taxed at the pump but it does have one flaw that might make some noise.

          Most States are now collecting sales tax at the pump over and above road taxes and the road taxes are being sales taxed as part of the price. This portion has not been considered in my thoughts until your futuristic comment came up. You are right with the futuristic comment but there will be nothing new to the consumer that they are not already paying anyway.

          Also to be considered is the substancial savings available for those who have their own energy to fuel the car with anyway but are forbidden by law today because of smog rules.

          Remember as well that the gasoline today is seasonally re-formulated as well which is something else that we have to accept or walk with the heat value of the gasoline being lowered in the summer months for dealing with smog.

          from below;
          Corporate auto makers tend to think of themselves as above the law and clearly do not like being told what to do by a government body.

          I don't see that as an obstacle. Customer demand will by itself make corporations move faster than any laws on the books. If customers want it and it can be done, it will be done.
          Corporate America wants profits !!

          As for the States, I don't see any revenue loss involved with the electric car to the States. As a matter of fact, I see increased revenue to the States simply because cheap energy will generate more miles driven by the electric cars thus producing more tax revenue to the States and the Feds.

          Simply stated; people will use cars more if they are cheaper to run than staying home or using public transportation. Just like stores, the income of the individual will dictate the consumption of that individual at the store as well as the gas pump.

          Of course, the price of oil will drop as well if demand falls off and will correct itself to some degree beginning at the oil well head.

          Right now, oil companys have a bigger problem to deal with reguarding airline failures and thus the loss of fuel sales for them to consider. Aloha is already down and others will probably follow.

          The easiest path to this situation is to simply show government that they will still get their money "ON TIME AND FIRST" and you will see all resistance to this tax issue go away.

          This is why I suggested google or yahoo or both for this tax collection and distribution system. They are already in a position to deal with it and the computer in the car.

          As for the banker and his car payment issue, I just see a simplistic way for the electric vehicle but it can probably be added to the gasoline vehicle easily as well and "YES" google and yahoo could deal with it as well.

          The biggest item to watch out for is that of too many entitys have a way of turning that switch on and off in the car. That could create a fiasco in itself if too many entitys had access to it. Something to watch out for.

          Bob

          Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
          Being sloughed of is better then being maligned and crushed. Asking to have ourselves taxed and then presenting an untested, futuristic and invasive system to do the taxing is not the sort of plan people eagerly jump at.

          Corporate auto makers tend to think of themselves as above the law and clearly do not like being told what to do by a government body. Oil companies have spent a great deal of time and money sewing up the transportation sector so that the only real option is to buy their petroleum. After all that work setting the stage to reap record profits, we can guess why Oil companies aren’t keen to welcome competition from plug-ins.

          Plug-in advocates seem to have a pretty good handle on both the Auto makers and the Oil hawkers motivations but appear blind to the possibility that the state may have it’s own reasons to dislike plug-ins. But with State Governments strapped for cash, they can’t be expected to welcome anything that threatens their tax revenues.

          Since none of this is out in the open, it’s up the plug-in people to figure it out and convince themselves. Not easy to do but better then running into brick walls.

          Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote: That is exactly what I said 3 or 4 months ago and about 1.5 years ago. It was just sluffed off so I gave up.

          Now that we have car dealers wanting a "WHERE'S MY MONEY" switch as well as the States and the Feds screaming "WHERE'S MY MONEY FIRST", it just might be time to get google or yahoo involved with the manufacturers and solve the problem. I am sure they would welcome the revenue generated for themselves for being a tax collector and a payment collector at the same time.

          Government would probaly like this as well for collecting traffic and parking tickets using the same switch. OH "PLEASE" don't tell them or we will all be walking unless we can sue them if they are wrong!! I would love to have that done to me......

          Remember, ATM and Credit cards are instantly copable by google or yahoo or about anybody else in our so called modern world and they would control the "did you pay me" switch as well.

          The only thing I can think of is that the people must be warned and not stopped on the freeway. The ideal situation is to only allow the system to lock out if the ignition switch was turned off and the car could be determined to not be moving or we really have a safety problem to deal with.

          YES, America is almost ready to kill for their dollar bill but I don't think it is there yet. Maybe next year???

          We really shouldn't lock out a car even if it's got a money problem unless the computer can connect to wifi where it is locked out so the system can unlock itself if they get their money.

          If you think about it a little, just where would your car be over a course of 3 or 4 days that it could not connect to the internet while it is stopped and turned off using wifi?

          A rooftop or windshield antenna would reach most anything out there in my town and most rest stops now have internet available on the highways.

          If you have internet at home, add a WIFI Router or put cat5 cable in the garage to plug into if necessary would also suffice. The ethernet jack will probably be supplied by the factory anyway which means the tow truck and WIMAX would probably get it on the road again rather quickly.

          Tow trucks in my area can cover most anywhere with WIMAX and it will shortly be everywhere after Feb.17th of next year when they get the television broadcast band to themselves.

          That's 100% AT&T and Verizon according to the bid results of last week reported everywhere anybody would listen to on the news.

          This could and probably would come together all at the same time if someone would get on it.

          As for FREE energy to go with it, I am now seeing ads offering solar electric panels for roof top home installation that run the meter backwards during the day and you take it out at night and put it into your car. This means hydro power can serve the load if done at night.

          Yes, it is endless what can be done if we really want to do it. Even break "BIG OIL" from their grip as well.

          Bob

          Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:
          That is cool. No one will like it at first but something like this is an essential step toward breaking up the unholy alliance of Big Auto, Big Oil and Big Gov.

          Organizations like CalCars and Plug in America are obviously powerless to make changes at the Gov. level. All the logic and pleading from people like James Woolsey changes nothing.

          Like it or not, CARB and friends just told Plug-in supporters around the globe to shut up and get back in line.

          Robert Mills <rmills7759@...> wrote: Just found another way to deal with this as well.

          http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20080331/tc_usatoday/hightechgeardisablescarifborrowermissespayment

          The bank is looking at a way as well. This could satisfy both partys..

          Bob

          ---------------------------------
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          OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ---------------------------------
          Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ---------------------------------
          You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

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          You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

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