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Re: fuel cost considerations

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  • Arcologic@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/8/2007 3:06:49 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, Murdoch said, As we have been desperately trying to tell Union leaders for years, there was
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 8, 2007
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      In a message dated 11/8/2007 3:06:49 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, Murdoch
      said,


      As we have been desperately trying to tell Union leaders for years,
      there was no problem with American engineeers..there was no problem
      capable of designing vehicles that were sufficiently energy-conserving
      that they could serve consumer needs in a fuel-strapped environment.
      The problem was that GM managers scuttled those energy-conserving
      vehicles and the ideas that were behind them. Why would intelligent
      creative ambitious American engineers continue to do as much good work
      for those sorts of business managers?



      There is a web site for auto engineers to share knowledge. (Don't know the
      name right now.) About two years ago I posted there the view that auto
      engineers had a moral obligation to produce efficient cars. The next day I found
      that I was permanently locked out of the site.

      Ernie Rogers



      ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lee Dekker
      The Arab oil crisis showed the entire world how quickly we could lessen our thirst for oil when forced to do so. Major players including OPEC took note of
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 8, 2007
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        The "Arab oil crisis" showed the entire world how quickly we could lessen our thirst for oil when forced to do so. Major players including OPEC took note of this ability to move away from oil and have ever since been very low-key while simultaneously tightening their grip.


        murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote: [Default] On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:17:57 -0000, "Forbes Bagatelle-Black"
        <diarmaede@...> wrote:

        [...]

        >Also, it is hard for me to think that peak oil has hit crisis levels
        >when we are still talking about the problem in terms of $/barrel. The
        >problem will be real when we start talking about what percentage of
        >our energy needs we can cover given absolute supply limitations.
        >
        >Rambling,
        >
        >Forbes

        I've been a bit surprised by how long it is taking for the price of
        gasoline in $ in the US to catch up to the rise in the price of oil. I
        speculate that the oil companies and refiners and others believe there
        is a price above which they would induce some (limited) real shift in
        vehicle buying on the part of Americans.

        Some years ago a Honda executive told me that their internal studies
        indicated that Americans would not truly change their driving or
        vehicle-buying habits until gasoline got to $2.50 to $3.00 per gallon
        (or was it $3.50?). This was back when gasoline was around $1.50 or
        less, per gallon, and his comments seemed discouraging to me. In the
        final analysis, Honda's research seems to have had some good merit.

        I think that Americans' "choices" have been "helped along" by the fact
        that their auto dealers have given them, basically, no choice at all.
        There has never been a quality non-fossil-fuel-industry-powered
        highway-capable mass-produced reasonably-priced vehicle widely for
        sale to the American public.... not in decades anyway. Biofuel
        vehicles for sale to the American public have all been dual-fuel
        vehicles and have generally been fueled by fossil fuels since fossil
        fuels are widely available.

        Although Americans' "choices" have had help, the Honda research seems
        somewhat borne out in that as gasoline has approached Honda's tipping
        points (adjusting for inflation a few years later) we see some change
        toward purchase of better-mileage vehicles. Witness, for example,
        Toyota's decent earnings announced in the same week as mighty GM, led
        by mighty American MBA geniuses, strikes out. So, the problem is not
        a uniform industry-wide global shutdown by global consumers on
        car-buying.

        One of the differences between GM and Toyota is that Toyota makes cars
        that use less energy per mile, and those cars, led by the Prius, have
        been selling ok in the US. Maybe GM should consider making and
        selling cars that use less energy per mile.

        As we have been desperately trying to tell Union leaders for years,
        there was no problem with American engineeers... they were perfectly
        capable of designing vehicles that were sufficiently energy-conserving
        that they could serve consumer needs in a fuel-strapped environment.
        The problem was that GM managers scuttled those energy-conserving
        vehicles and the ideas that were behind them. Why would intelligent
        creative ambitious American engineers continue to do as much good work
        for those sorts of business managers?




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      • Lee Dekker
        Does this loss to GM include GM capital? If so, this current mortgage related transfer of wealth scam would help explain the difference between GM and Toyota.
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 8, 2007
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          Does this loss to GM include GM capital? If so, this current mortgage related transfer of wealth scam would help explain the difference between GM and Toyota.


          murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote: [Default] On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:23:30 GMT, "Dave Goldstein"
          <goldie.ev1@...> wrote:

          >GM has just reported it's biggest ever quarterly loss,
          >surprising analysts and causing the stock value to drop
          >precipitously. GM's CEO Rick Wagoner blames mortgage-related
          >losses and GM's inability to reverse its losses by utilizing
          >tax credits.

          Too bad GM has been blowing off signals of consumer demand, such as we
          had sought to bring to his attention.

          >
          >According to one analyst, "This all suggests that GM thinks
          >that things are so ugly out there that they can't see the
          >possibility of profitability for many quarters, maybe even
          >years . . ."

          I wonder what Mr. Wagoner has to say about the fact that Toyota seems
          to be doing just-fine-thanks.

          [...]

          >Further, even if GM survives, their weakened financial
          >condition may inhibit their ability to invest the billions
          >of dollars it will take to tool up and produce the millions
          >of new-generation vehicles needed to *begin* to impact
          >America's 230 million vehicle fleet of gas guzzlers, which
          >now average less than 25 mpg.

          I support your focus on these issues and on keeping in mind the total
          size of the US fleet. I think it is worth drawing attention to the
          global macro-eeconomic issues and questions here, such as what
          vehicles are on the road using fuel, what happens to those vehicles
          when the price of fuel changes, and what will be done with vehicles
          when they are retired and recycled. When there are so many vehicles
          on the road that use petroleum-based fuels, then we can assume a
          momentum, for a certain number of years, in the demand for those
          fuels. However, some of that can be mitigated if people simply stop
          driving some of those cars as much, and accept that those vehicles
          have a lower value, as vehicles that use an unacceptably high-priced
          fuel.

          These days, "alternative energy" is rightly a hotter topic than it
          used to be. I think "waste disposal and recycling" is an
          under-discussed topic and hopefully as well. Although waste disposal
          is sometimes discussed by those of us who focus on energy
          (waste-to-energy plans), I think this is only a moderate part of the
          big picture for questions concerning how we will make our world more
          sustainable.

          Although some progress has been made, I think, in questions concerning
          how cars are built to be recycled, there will still be a question of
          what we are going to do if we decide that we need to severely revise
          the fleet that we have. Maybe we'll just park many of them?




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        • Eddie
          According to Mr. S. David Freeman s book on Energy, Arab countries supplied a MERE 5% of our oil when that crisis took place... ... Is Th!nk on the move?
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 8, 2007
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            According to Mr. S. David Freeman's book on Energy, Arab countries
            supplied a MERE 5% of our oil when that crisis took place...


            --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:

            > The "Arab oil crisis" showed the entire world how quickly we
            > could lessen our thirst for oil when forced to do so. Major players
            > including OPEC took note of this ability to move away from oil and
            > have ever since been very low-key while simultaneously tightening
            > their grip.
            >
            >
            > murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
            > [Default] On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:17:57 -0000, "Forbes
            > Bagatelle-Black"
            > <diarmaede@...> wrote:
            >
            > [...]
            >
            > >Also, it is hard for me to think that peak oil has hit crisis
            > levels
            > >when we are still talking about the problem in terms of $/barrel.
            > The
            > >problem will be real when we start talking about what percentage
            > of
            > >our energy needs we can cover given absolute supply limitations.
            > >
            > >Rambling,
            > >
            > >Forbes
            >
            > I've been a bit surprised by how long it is taking for the price
            > of
            > gasoline in $ in the US to catch up to the rise in the price of
            > oil. I
            > speculate that the oil companies and refiners and others believe
            > there
            > is a price above which they would induce some (limited) real shift
            > in
            > vehicle buying on the part of Americans.
            >
            > Some years ago a Honda executive told me that their internal
            > studies
            > indicated that Americans would not truly change their driving or
            > vehicle-buying habits until gasoline got to $2.50 to $3.00 per
            > gallon
            > (or was it $3.50?). This was back when gasoline was around $1.50
            > or
            > less, per gallon, and his comments seemed discouraging to me. In
            > the
            > final analysis, Honda's research seems to have had some good
            > merit.
            >
            > I think that Americans' "choices" have been "helped along" by the
            > fact
            > that their auto dealers have given them, basically, no choice at
            > all.
            > There has never been a quality non-fossil-fuel-industry-powered
            > highway-capable mass-produced reasonably-priced vehicle widely for
            > sale to the American public.... not in decades anyway. Biofuel
            > vehicles for sale to the American public have all been dual-fuel
            > vehicles and have generally been fueled by fossil fuels since
            > fossil
            > fuels are widely available.
            >
            > Although Americans' "choices" have had help, the Honda research
            > seems
            > somewhat borne out in that as gasoline has approached Honda's
            > tipping
            > points (adjusting for inflation a few years later) we see some
            > change
            > toward purchase of better-mileage vehicles. Witness, for example,
            > Toyota's decent earnings announced in the same week as mighty GM,
            > led
            > by mighty American MBA geniuses, strikes out. So, the problem is
            > not
            > a uniform industry-wide global shutdown by global consumers on
            > car-buying.
            >
            > One of the differences between GM and Toyota is that Toyota makes
            > cars
            > that use less energy per mile, and those cars, led by the Prius,
            > have
            > been selling ok in the US. Maybe GM should consider making and
            > selling cars that use less energy per mile.
            >
            > As we have been desperately trying to tell Union leaders for
            > years,
            > there was no problem with American engineeers... they were
            > perfectly
            > capable of designing vehicles that were sufficiently
            > energy-conserving
            > that they could serve consumer needs in a fuel-strapped
            > environment.
            > The problem was that GM managers scuttled those energy-conserving
            > vehicles and the ideas that were behind them. Why would
            > intelligent
            > creative ambitious American engineers continue to do as much good
            > work
            > for those sorts of business managers?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            ---
            Is Th!nk on the move? http://www.think.no/

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          • Lee Dekker
            Interesting. That makes the fervor to find alternate types of fuel during that time all the more interesting. For whatever reason, there were long gas lines
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 9, 2007
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              Interesting. That makes the fervor to find alternate types of fuel during that time all the more interesting. For whatever reason, there were long gas lines just about everywhere. The prospect of being forced to wait in lines or of being cut off altogether apparently had a much bigger impact on the American psyche then did any numerical statistic.


              Eddie <eddiecolumbus@...> wrote: According to Mr. S. David Freeman's book on Energy, Arab countries
              supplied a MERE 5% of our oil when that crisis took place...

              --- Lee Dekker <heprv@...> wrote:

              > The "Arab oil crisis" showed the entire world how quickly we
              > could lessen our thirst for oil when forced to do so. Major players
              > including OPEC took note of this ability to move away from oil and
              > have ever since been very low-key while simultaneously tightening
              > their grip.
              >
              >
              > murdoch <murdoch@...> wrote:
              > [Default] On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:17:57 -0000, "Forbes
              > Bagatelle-Black"
              > <diarmaede@...> wrote:
              >
              > [...]
              >
              > >Also, it is hard for me to think that peak oil has hit crisis
              > levels
              > >when we are still talking about the problem in terms of $/barrel.
              > The
              > >problem will be real when we start talking about what percentage
              > of
              > >our energy needs we can cover given absolute supply limitations.
              > >
              > >Rambling,
              > >
              > >Forbes
              >
              > I've been a bit surprised by how long it is taking for the price
              > of
              > gasoline in $ in the US to catch up to the rise in the price of
              > oil. I
              > speculate that the oil companies and refiners and others believe
              > there
              > is a price above which they would induce some (limited) real shift
              > in
              > vehicle buying on the part of Americans.
              >
              > Some years ago a Honda executive told me that their internal
              > studies
              > indicated that Americans would not truly change their driving or
              > vehicle-buying habits until gasoline got to $2.50 to $3.00 per
              > gallon
              > (or was it $3.50?). This was back when gasoline was around $1.50
              > or
              > less, per gallon, and his comments seemed discouraging to me. In
              > the
              > final analysis, Honda's research seems to have had some good
              > merit.
              >
              > I think that Americans' "choices" have been "helped along" by the
              > fact
              > that their auto dealers have given them, basically, no choice at
              > all.
              > There has never been a quality non-fossil-fuel-industry-powered
              > highway-capable mass-produced reasonably-priced vehicle widely for
              > sale to the American public.... not in decades anyway. Biofuel
              > vehicles for sale to the American public have all been dual-fuel
              > vehicles and have generally been fueled by fossil fuels since
              > fossil
              > fuels are widely available.
              >
              > Although Americans' "choices" have had help, the Honda research
              > seems
              > somewhat borne out in that as gasoline has approached Honda's
              > tipping
              > points (adjusting for inflation a few years later) we see some
              > change
              > toward purchase of better-mileage vehicles. Witness, for example,
              > Toyota's decent earnings announced in the same week as mighty GM,
              > led
              > by mighty American MBA geniuses, strikes out. So, the problem is
              > not
              > a uniform industry-wide global shutdown by global consumers on
              > car-buying.
              >
              > One of the differences between GM and Toyota is that Toyota makes
              > cars
              > that use less energy per mile, and those cars, led by the Prius,
              > have
              > been selling ok in the US. Maybe GM should consider making and
              > selling cars that use less energy per mile.
              >
              > As we have been desperately trying to tell Union leaders for
              > years,
              > there was no problem with American engineeers... they were
              > perfectly
              > capable of designing vehicles that were sufficiently
              > energy-conserving
              > that they could serve consumer needs in a fuel-strapped
              > environment.
              > The problem was that GM managers scuttled those energy-conserving
              > vehicles and the ideas that were behind them. Why would
              > intelligent
              > creative ambitious American engineers continue to do as much good
              > work
              > for those sorts of business managers?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              ---
              Is Th!nk on the move? http://www.think.no/

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com




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