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Re:best explanation i have seen yet ffor why hydrogen bubbler increases

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  • Arcologic@aol.com
    The article says-- Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools down the engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2007
      The article says--

      Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools down the
      engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and thus fewer
      nitrogen-oxide emissions.

      That's more nonsensical than Alice in Wonderland. (Hydrogen raises
      temperature, not lower it. Conditions that lower particulates, e.g. lean burn,
      usually increase NOx.) The article is 50% lies and misinformation. But, which
      half? :-)

      Ernie Rogers




      ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • murdoch
      ... The article said the water, not the hydrogen, is used to lower temperature. ... Yes, good point. Traditionally, IC engines modified to run pure H2 have a
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 1, 2007
        [Default] On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:48:31 EDT, Arcologic@... wrote:

        >The article says--
        >
        >Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools down the
        >engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and thus fewer
        >nitrogen-oxide emissions.
        >
        >That's more nonsensical than Alice in Wonderland. (Hydrogen raises
        >temperature, not lower it.

        The article said the water, not the hydrogen, is used to lower
        temperature.

        >Conditions that lower particulates, e.g. lean burn,
        >usually increase NOx.)

        Yes, good point. Traditionally, IC engines modified to run pure H2
        have a problem with increased NOx emissions, just as do some biodiesel
        efforts. I think these problems have been partially or wholly
        addressed by some manufacturers, but they are still worth pointing
        out.

        >The article is 50% lies and misinformation. But, which
        >half? :-)

        At a glance, the article was written from an overly-adulatory point of
        view.

        Nonetheless, I'd like to learn more about a couple of things. This is
        perhaps not the only place we're seeing the concept of H2 as fuel
        enhancer rather than as a stand-alone fuel. I'd like to know what the
        pros and cons of that approach are.


        >
        >Ernie Rogers




        >
        >
        >
        >
        >************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • GWMobile
        The condesation of water vapor caused by the burning of hydrogen with oxygen it seems to me would lower the temperature of the otherr gases around it. What is
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 1, 2007
          The condesation of water vapor caused by the burning of hydrogen with
          oxygen it seems to me would lower the temperature of the otherr gases
          around it.

          What is the temperature of a hydrogen burn compared to a deisal burn?
          That is the essential question and also depends on pressure in the
          cylinder and relative contraction or expansion of the fuels when
          burned.

          It seems hydrogen gas and oxygen "burning" recombine and contract into
          water vapor thus collapsing in the exhaust system and cooling the
          exhaust thus condensing particulates - isn't that the way it works after
          leaving the combustion cylinder?

          On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 9:41 am, murdoch wrote:
          > [Default] On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:48:31 EDT, Arcologic@... wrote:
          >
          >> The article says--
          >>
          >> Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools
          >> down the
          >> engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and
          >> thus fewer
          >> nitrogen-oxide emissions.
          >>
          >> That's more nonsensical than Alice in Wonderland. (Hydrogen raises
          >> temperature, not lower it.
          >
          > The article said the water, not the hydrogen, is used to lower
          > temperature.
          >
          >> Conditions that lower particulates, e.g. lean burn,
          >> usually increase NOx.)
          >
          > Yes, good point. Traditionally, IC engines modified to run pure H2
          > have a problem with increased NOx emissions, just as do some biodiesel
          > efforts. I think these problems have been partially or wholly
          > addressed by some manufacturers, but they are still worth pointing
          > out.
          >
          >> The article is 50% lies and misinformation. But, which
          >> half? :-)
          >
          > At a glance, the article was written from an overly-adulatory point of
          > view.
          >
          > Nonetheless, I'd like to learn more about a couple of things. This is
          > perhaps not the only place we're seeing the concept of H2 as fuel
          > enhancer rather than as a stand-alone fuel. I'd like to know what the
          > pros and cons of that approach are.
          >
          >
          >>
          >> Ernie Rogers
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ************************************** See what's new at
          >> http://www.aol.com
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
          and the melting poles.

          www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
        • David Amies
          Sounds to me like the perfect way to get a rusty exhaust pipe with rust holes before the emissions control in the exhaust system. Correct me if i m wrong?
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 2, 2007
            Sounds to me like the perfect way to get a rusty exhaust pipe with
            rust holes before the emissions control in the exhaust system.

            Correct me if i'm wrong?

            Dave.


            On 02/11/2007, at 6:21 AM, GWMobile wrote:

            > The condesation of water vapor caused by the burning of hydrogen with
            > oxygen it seems to me would lower the temperature of the otherr gases
            > around it.
            >
            > What is the temperature of a hydrogen burn compared to a deisal burn?
            > That is the essential question and also depends on pressure in the
            > cylinder and relative contraction or expansion of the fuels when
            > burned.
            >
            > It seems hydrogen gas and oxygen "burning" recombine and contract into
            > water vapor thus collapsing in the exhaust system and cooling the
            > exhaust thus condensing particulates - isn't that the way it works
            > after
            > leaving the combustion cylinder?
            >
            > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 9:41 am, murdoch wrote:
            > > [Default] On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:48:31 EDT, Arcologic@... wrote:
            > >
            > >> The article says--
            > >>
            > >> Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools
            > >> down the
            > >> engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and
            > >> thus fewer
            > >> nitrogen-oxide emissions.
            > >>
            > >> That's more nonsensical than Alice in Wonderland. (Hydrogen raises
            > >> temperature, not lower it.
            > >
            > > The article said the water, not the hydrogen, is used to lower
            > > temperature.
            > >
            > >> Conditions that lower particulates, e.g. lean burn,
            > >> usually increase NOx.)
            > >
            > > Yes, good point. Traditionally, IC engines modified to run pure H2
            > > have a problem with increased NOx emissions, just as do some
            > biodiesel
            > > efforts. I think these problems have been partially or wholly
            > > addressed by some manufacturers, but they are still worth pointing
            > > out.
            > >
            > >> The article is 50% lies and misinformation. But, which
            > >> half? :-)
            > >
            > > At a glance, the article was written from an overly-adulatory
            > point of
            > > view.
            > >
            > > Nonetheless, I'd like to learn more about a couple of things.
            > This is
            > > perhaps not the only place we're seeing the concept of H2 as fuel
            > > enhancer rather than as a stand-alone fuel. I'd like to know what
            > the
            > > pros and cons of that approach are.
            > >
            > >
            > >>
            > >> Ernie Rogers
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ************************************** See what's new at
            > >> http://www.aol.com
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
            > and the melting poles.
            >
            > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron Cochran
            ... Actually, Ernie, what you say above is backwards. Condensing any gas (including water vapor) is a process that gives off heat. Therefore, it heats up the
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 2, 2007
              On 02/11/2007, at 6:21 AM, GWMobile wrote:

              > The condesation of water vapor caused by the burning of hydrogen with
              > oxygen it seems to me would lower the temperature of the otherr gases
              > around it.

              Actually, Ernie, what you say above is backwards. Condensing any gas
              (including water vapor) is a process that gives off heat. Therefore, it
              heats up the space around it. It seems kind of backwards, but if you have
              ever released a gas rapidly from a compressed gas cylinder, you know that
              the top of the tank gets cold, because the process of decompressing (much
              like un-condensing) a gas is one that must take in energy, which cools
              everything around it.

              Ron



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lee Renna
              I agree. Definite rust hazard, no doubt. To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com From: da@mad.scientist.com Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:31:27 +1000
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 2, 2007
                I agree. Definite rust hazard, no doubt.

                To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
                From: da@...
                Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:31:27 +1000
                Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re:best explanation i have seen yet ffor why hydrogen bubbler increases




















                Sounds to me like the perfect way to get a rusty exhaust pipe with

                rust holes before the emissions control in the exhaust system.



                Correct me if i'm wrong?



                Dave.



                On 02/11/2007, at 6:21 AM, GWMobile wrote:



                > The condesation of water vapor caused by the burning of hydrogen with

                > oxygen it seems to me would lower the temperature of the otherr gases

                > around it.

                >

                > What is the temperature of a hydrogen burn compared to a deisal burn?

                > That is the essential question and also depends on pressure in the

                > cylinder and relative contraction or expansion of the fuels when

                > burned.

                >

                > It seems hydrogen gas and oxygen "burning" recombine and contract into

                > water vapor thus collapsing in the exhaust system and cooling the

                > exhaust thus condensing particulates - isn't that the way it works

                > after

                > leaving the combustion cylinder?

                >

                > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 9:41 am, murdoch wrote:

                > > [Default] On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:48:31 EDT, Arcologic@... wrote:

                > >

                > >> The article says--

                > >>

                > >> Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools

                > >> down the

                > >> engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and

                > >> thus fewer

                > >> nitrogen-oxide emissions.

                > >>

                > >> That's more nonsensical than Alice in Wonderland. (Hydrogen raises

                > >> temperature, not lower it.

                > >

                > > The article said the water, not the hydrogen, is used to lower

                > > temperature.

                > >

                > >> Conditions that lower particulates, e.g. lean burn,

                > >> usually increase NOx.)

                > >

                > > Yes, good point. Traditionally, IC engines modified to run pure H2

                > > have a problem with increased NOx emissions, just as do some

                > biodiesel

                > > efforts. I think these problems have been partially or wholly

                > > addressed by some manufacturers, but they are still worth pointing

                > > out.

                > >

                > >> The article is 50% lies and misinformation. But, which

                > >> half? :-)

                > >

                > > At a glance, the article was written from an overly-adulatory

                > point of

                > > view.

                > >

                > > Nonetheless, I'd like to learn more about a couple of things.

                > This is

                > > perhaps not the only place we're seeing the concept of H2 as fuel

                > > enhancer rather than as a stand-alone fuel. I'd like to know what

                > the

                > > pros and cons of that approach are.

                > >

                > >

                > >>

                > >> Ernie Rogers

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > >>

                > >>

                > >>

                > >>

                > >> ************************************** See what's new at

                > >> http://www.aol.com

                > >>

                > >>

                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                > >>

                > >>

                > >>

                > >>

                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links

                > >>

                > >>

                > >>

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming

                > and the melting poles.

                >

                > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

                >

                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























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              • csceadraham
                ... http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/future-fuels-and-vehicles/message/10207 ... I think you are overestimating the likely effect of a little more water
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 2, 2007
                  --- In
                  http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/future-fuels-and-vehicles/message/10207
                  David Amies <da@...> wrote:

                  > Sounds to me like the perfect way to get a rusty exhaust pipe with
                  > rust holes before the emissions control in the exhaust system.
                  >
                  > Correct me if i'm wrong?

                  I think you are overestimating the likely effect
                  of a little more water vapour in the exhaust.

                  Gasoline contains many different hydrocarbons,
                  of which one typical one is octane, C8H18,
                  and that burns to 8 CO2 plus 9 H2O(g), i.e.,
                  even without added hydrogen, the water vapour content
                  of the ash mixture is more than 50 percent.


                  --- G. R. L. Cowan, boron internal combustion fan
                  How shall cars gain nuclear cachet?
                  http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html
                • David Amies
                  Thanks csceadraham, I didn t know that there was already water vapor in exhaust, actually my understanding of electric motors is much better than petrol ones.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 3, 2007
                    Thanks csceadraham,

                    I didn't know that there was already water vapor in exhaust, actually
                    my understanding of electric motors is much better than petrol
                    ones. So I learned something today :-)

                    Dave.

                    On 03/11/2007, at 12:13 PM, csceadraham wrote:

                    > --- In
                    > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/future-fuels-and-vehicles/
                    > message/10207
                    > David Amies <da@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Sounds to me like the perfect way to get a rusty exhaust pipe with
                    > > rust holes before the emissions control in the exhaust system.
                    > >
                    > > Correct me if i'm wrong?
                    >
                    > I think you are overestimating the likely effect
                    > of a little more water vapour in the exhaust.
                    >
                    > Gasoline contains many different hydrocarbons,
                    > of which one typical one is octane, C8H18,
                    > and that burns to 8 CO2 plus 9 H2O(g), i.e.,
                    > even without added hydrogen, the water vapour content
                    > of the ash mixture is more than 50 percent.
                    >
                    > --- G. R. L. Cowan, boron internal combustion fan
                    > How shall cars gain nuclear cachet?
                    > http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html
                    >
                    >
                    >



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