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13125Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

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  • Paul Scott
    Jul 9, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      It fuels my bicycle!

      Paul

      On Jul 9, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Billy Wickmen wrote:

      > I wonder if Ice Cream could fuel a vehicle?
      >
      > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Forbes Black <diarmaede@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Forbes Black <diarmaede@...>
      > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
      > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
      > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 11:35 PM
      >
      >
      >
      > I've been watching from a distance. You kids have been playing
      > nicely. You all get extra icecream for dessert.
      >
      >
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Forbes
      >
      > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
      >
      > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
      > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
      >
      > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 2:32 PM
      >
      >
      >
      > That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like
      > we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by
      > moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way
      > less significant than this.
      >
      > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
      > <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
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      > >
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      > > Dave
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      > > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with
      > copying and pasting.
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      > > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
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      > > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
      >
      > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
      > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
      >
      > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM
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      > > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.
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      > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
      > <wickedbill44@> wrote:
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!
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      > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
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      > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
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      > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
      > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
      >
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      > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me
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      > is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel"
      > does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and
      > that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated
      > more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to
      > look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions
      > wrong.���
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an
      > underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils
      > form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or
      > plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal
      > form a fossil? ���
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils
      > have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs,
      > birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so
      > that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays.���
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to
      > get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body
      > and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that
      > oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are
      > the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green
      > principle, right?���
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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      > > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100
      > mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the
      > technology is more affordable.
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do
      > my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and
      > buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the
      > music that the pied piper is playing���
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      > > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.
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      > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen
      > <wickedbill44@> wrote:
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      > > > > Dave,
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      > > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels.
      > These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
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      > > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner.
      > We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or
      > vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become
      > more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to
      > meet our demands.�������� Some type of people mover is required and
      > will continue to be.
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      > > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however
      > be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a
      > vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle
      > (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel
      > could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not
      > readily available for the average driver.
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      > > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the
      > streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus
      > for the environment.
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      > > > > ��������
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      > > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
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      > > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
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      > > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small
      > Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
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      > >
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      > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >
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      > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
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      > > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know
      > that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do
      > you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it?
      > Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from
      > out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil
      > fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is
      > not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what
      > I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come
      > from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably
      > that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely
      > impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or
      > creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil
      > fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it?
      > Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under
      > some vague
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      > > > > politically-charged phrase like "fossil fuels"? Are we a bunch
      > of meat-heads?
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      >
      > > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron
      > Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
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      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Ollie,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe
      > that Americans
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > will continue to make car decisions according to the same
      > simple formula
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the
      > most features for
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model,
      > ICE's will
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is
      > invented or until
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's
      > begin to win on
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward
      > making our planet
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to
      > change things.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      > Of Oliver Perry
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small
      > Electric BMW
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it
      > was recorded
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the
      > ground would not
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the
      > electric highway
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until
      > fossil fuels become
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It
      > is interesting
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on
      > the electric
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the
      > raising of awareness
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said,
      > hydrocarbon fuels contain
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them
      > we would have
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient
      > for nations to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch
      > to alternatives,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs
      > and even newer
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible
      > like the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel
      > world to turn the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels?
      > The fear of
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the
      > nuclear industry.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least
      > in the minds of
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the
      > most powerful
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly
      > established in the oll and
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle
      > dominance, even
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in
      > coming... even
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system.
      > These huge
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy
      > game is going to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama
      > who promised us
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White
      > House? Not even
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly
      > table upside
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner
      > hoping that the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are
      > changing when
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of
      > distributing energy.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that
      > it is still an
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy
      > movement. When
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster
      > pace.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage
      > somebody with limited
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in
      > a company on the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the
      > company,about
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I
      > invested. But,, I did it
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a
      > risk.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing.
      > But, it is still
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Ollie Perry
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > EEVC
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
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      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
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      > > >
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      > >
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      > > > >
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      > >
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      > > >
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      > >
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      > > > >
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      > >
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      > > >
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      > >
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      > > > >
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      > > >
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      > > > >
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      > > >
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      > > > >
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      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
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