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13121Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities

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  • Dave
    Jul 9, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      That's cool. Love the civility and level-headedness here. Seems like we have a good moderator. I've been kicked off a couple groups by moderators who get their panties in a wad over stuff way, way, way less significant than this.

      --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@...> wrote:
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      > Dave
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      > Sorry for coming across that way I just got carried away with copying and pasting.
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      > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Dave <davenevland@...> wrote:
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      > From: Dave <davenevland@...>
      > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
      > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 3:10 PM
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      > Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin.
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      > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much!
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      > > --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
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      > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
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      > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
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      > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 2:59 PM
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much. It just bugs me when I feel I'm being suckered into a mindset by a catchy term that is inaccurate and really only serves the purpose of framing an agenda. 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much"Fossil Fuel" does imply that it is in limited supply, not being made anymore, and that we will run out of it someday. Modern science, which is updated more frequently than 16-year-old public school textbooks (way to look it up, though, Dr. Cochran) is proving all three assumptions wrong. 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWhat's more is an underlying assumption regarding fossils. We are told fossils form over long periods of time and are not being formed anymore.  
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchFirst, if fossils form over long periods of time then why wouldn't the bug or bird or plant that dies in the mud today that's not eaten by another animal form a fossil?  
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchSecond, fossils have been formed recently during cataclysmic events when bugs, birds, or plants are slammed into mud and then covered rapidly so that the impression is preserved as the bug, bird, or plant decays. 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchWe really want to get away from oil mostly because it is pollution that the human body and maybe the planet can't process well. It is true, though, that oil and so-called fossil fuels are sustainable at some level and are the product of the planet recycling itself. That's a green principle, right? 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much
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      > > I'm making a small commuter vehicle that I'm trying to get 100 mpg out of and will be a good design to convert to electric when the technology is more affordable.
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that muchI just want to do my part to make sure we're not being lead blindly by emotion and buzz words. Every now and then we should stop and investigate the music that the pied piper is playing 
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      > > Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter that much.
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      > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, Billy Wickmen <wickedbill44@> wrote:
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      > > > Dave,
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      > > > It is not important whether we call it Oil or Fossil Fuels. These terms both identify it and are understandable to all.
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      > > > Most cities are built around the vehicle ask any city planner. We don't oppose this fact! We are looking for alternative fuels or vehicles that fit within the city planners objectives. Cities become more and more spread out but the public transportation is slow to meet our demands.  Some type of people mover is required and will continue to be.
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      > > > The ideal answer is a vehicle for city driving (must however be able to travel at highway speeds for at least 100m) plus a vehicle for trips over the 100 mile range. A low speed city vehicle (electric) will not be accepted by the average driver. Bio diesel could fit both criteria for low emissions, however bio diesel is not readily available for the average driver.
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      > > > The Smart (sold by Mercedes) car is becoming accepted on the streets of Toronto if an electric smart was introduced what a plus for the environment.
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      > > > --- On Wed, 7/7/10, Dave <davenevland@> wrote:
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      > > > From: Dave <davenevland@>
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      > > > Subject: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Re: Envisioning a Small Electric BMW for the World's Very Big Cities
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      > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 3:29 PM
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      > > > Dr. Cochran, why do you call them fossil fuels? Do you know that oil and gas are made from decayed dinosaurs and animals, or do you use that term "fossil fuels" because everyone else has used it? Do you lump biodiesel in with fossil fuels? It's not brought from out of the ground. Do you lump methane or natural gas in with fossil fuels when methane happens after you eat too many beans? Methane is not limited. It's being created in swamps continually. From what I've read, oil and gas, it's being discovered, do not actually come from decayed animals. Am I wrong in that, or do you know verifiably that oil and gas come from fossils? Aren't fossils merely impressions in rock that was once mud made by an extinct animal or creature? How could fuel or oil come from this? Is the term "fossil fuel" a myth? If so, who started it, and why do we perpetuate it? Why don't we just call it oil instead of lumping it all in under some vague
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      > > > --- In future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Cochran" <rcochran@> wrote:
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      > > > > Ollie,
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      > > > > I'm sorry to say that I agree with your analysis. I believe that Americans
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      > > > > that they have been taught for decades - "how do I get the most features for
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      > > > > the least money?". And based on that simple decision model, ICE's will
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      > > > > continue to win until either a much improved battery is invented or until
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      > > > > (as you say) the price of oil finally gets so high that EV's begin to win on
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      > > > > cost alone. That also means that we will continue toward making our planet
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      > > > > unlivable until the economics of fossil fuels happens to change things.
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      > > > > Still, that change needs to be guided by Groups like this one.
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      > > > > R.L. Cochran, Ph.D.
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      > > > > -----Original Message-----
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      > > > > From: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > > [mailto:future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Perry
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      > > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:26 PM
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      > > > > To: future-fuels-and-vehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > > Subject: Re: [future-fuels-and-vehicles] Envisioning a Small Electric BMW
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      > > > > for the World's Very Big Cities
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      > > > > Thanks for the news clipping.
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      > > > > Our nation's lighting once ran on Whale oil. At that time it was recorded
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      > > > > that someone said, that the black stuff coming out of the ground would not
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      > > > > be used until we ran out of whales. Now it seems as if the electric highway
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      > > > > will not become a reality, even in large cities, until fossil fuels become
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      > > > > so hard to get that their price exceeds the alternative. It is interesting
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      > > > > that more and more major car companies seem to be jumping on the electric
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      > > > > bandwagon. But, I fear much of it is for hype and the raising of awareness
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      > > > > for their brand names. As someone else also said, hydrocarbon fuels contain
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      > > > > so much energy per pound that if we had not discovered them we would have
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      > > > > invented them. So far it has been cheaper and more efficient for nations to
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      > > > > clean up the pollution side of fossil fuels than to switch to alternatives,
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      > > > > even in face of the Gulf disaster, which is providing jobs and even newer
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      > > > > technology for the clean up. Do we wish something horrible like the
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      > > > > Chernoble nuclear accident to happen in the fossil fuel world to turn the
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      > > > > masses off from our addiction to the use of fossil fuels? The fear of
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      > > > > radiation and the high cost of protection has limited the nuclear industry.
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      > > > > Nothing comparable has happened in the ICE world, at least in the minds of
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      > > > > the masses here on earth. When you realize that probably the most powerful
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      > > > > companies and governments in the world are firmly established in the oll and
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      > > > > coal business it is easy to conclude that electric vehicle dominance, even
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      > > > > in highly populated cities, is going to be very slow in coming... even
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      > > > > though an integrated EV system might be a superior system. These huge
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      > > > > powerbrokers have the resources to dictate how the energy game is going to
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      > > > > be played for years. Do you feel that even the mighty Obama who promised us
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      > > > > change has changed his tune since his campaign for the White House? Not even
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      > > > > Obama, for all his talk, has free reign to turn the monopoly table upside
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      > > > > down. He is just another small player sitting on the corner hoping that the
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      > > > > dice will fall in his favor. We will know that things are changing when
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      > > > > large investors begin to invest in alternative ways of distributing energy.
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      > > > > Some have tried but the latest findings have concluded that it is still an
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      > > > > economic gamble to plunge whole hog into the green energy movement. When
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      > > > > the risk is lower then I think change will occur at a faster pace.
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      > > > > Unfortunately honest people cannot sincerely encourage somebody with limited
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      > > > > resources to invest in green energy projects. I invested in a company on the
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      > > > > advice of a close friend whose son had left IBM to form the company,about
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      > > > > 15 years ago, and so far I have lost most of what I invested. But,, I did it
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      > > > > because I was willing to help the cause, knowing it was a risk.
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      > > > > I think electric transportation is neat and a great thing. But, it is still
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      > > > > a hard sell when considering financial profitability.
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      > > > > Thanks again for your enthusiasm.
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      > > > > Ollie Perry
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      > > > > EEVC
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