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Re: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

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  • Lee Schipper
    I note that the inside of this private CD says that the recording was broadcast by the BBC Radio 3 on June 22 1986 and Jan 17 1986.. ... One of our friends --
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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      I note that the inside of this private CD says that the recording was
      broadcast by the BBC Radio 3 on June 22 1986 and Jan 17 1986..

      >>> SCHIPPER@... 8/11/2004 3:40:30 PM >>>
      One of our friends -- I wont say whom but let him speak for himself --
      made a nice private CD labeled 8-10 April calling it the Schalk
      Version
      with cross references to CETRA, Hunt, and Emblam LP/CDs. Timings 79.54
      (only six seconds more and the CD would have burst)...Claims the
      source
      was someone at the BbBC.. I'll listen and report back.

      >>> ParsifalCSA@... 8/11/2004 3:15:18 PM >>>
      I have the Andante incarnation as well as a private edition of that
      '54
      version on a label that I believe called itself "Elaboration." I also
      recall a tape that an Austrian friend of mine had at one time, also
      with
      an announcer on it. I don't think there is much doubt that it is
      Furtwangler.

      Indeed, be it a pre-Nowak 1890 or whatever, it is beautifully
      rendered.
      While there is not the same sharp-edged angst and searing tension that
      one finds in the Oct. '44 8th, there is a kind of, for better words,
      layered clarity, a grandeur, and an overarching vision that really
      comes
      through. It's a valuable edition to the discography. Berkshire Outlet
      was selling the set (with Bohm and von Karajan Bruckner symphonies) at
      a
      greatly reduced price---as was Daedalus, as well. It still may be
      available that way.

      Boyd Cathey
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    • Simon Clark
      ... I would not trust Andante s dating any more than any other. They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier and Patzak conducted by Walter which
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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        > RGrames@... 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM wrote:
        > Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The
        > Andante release is the first mention of a
        > performance on the 24th that I've seen. Since
        > those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume
        > its authenticity is verified. That leaves the
        > April 10th performance, which Hunt's discography
        > discribes as controversial, with some saying it is
        > actually Knappertsbusch conducting.


        I would not trust Andante's dating any more than any
        other.

        They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier
        and Patzak conducted by Walter which Andante claim is
        a live performance in Vienna in 1953 at around the
        time of the Decca commercial recording. Andante say
        their tape was provided by Austrian Radio.

        This has been the subject of some controversy - in
        Gramophone for example - but, using simultaneous
        playback, the Andante issue is, without any doubt,
        itself the Decca commercial.

        But there are other high profile examples of problems
        about the authenticity or dating of live Bruckner
        performances which may be of interest.

        Klemperer's uncut 1964 8th for example - is it or
        isn't it him? And which orchestra and which date?
        And which of the versions claiming to be Klemperer is
        the correct one (if any)?

        Kna conducted Bruckner's 9th two or three times within
        the space of a few days in 1950. At leat two of these
        survive and the dates are constantly swapped by
        different sources.

        And Eugen Jochum's last performance of the 9th with
        the Munich PO shortly before his death. Is it Jochum?
        The Munich PO says "no" but copies from more than one
        source - none of them with commentary, however - claim
        to be conducted by Jochum.

        Does anyone have definitive information about any of
        these?

        Simon Clark








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      • MWKluge@aol.com
        ... Furtwangler performed the Bruckner 8 only on April 10/11, 1954 in the Musikvereinssaal. Andante s date is spurious. The controversy surrounding this
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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          In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Grames, Ronald" <RGrames@...> writes:

          >Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is
          >the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I've seen.  Since
          >those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume its authenticity is
          >verified.  That leaves the April 10th performance, which Hunt's
          >discography discribes as controversial, with some saying it is actually
          >Knappertsbusch conducting.
          >
          >Is it likely that Furtwangler would have performed the same piece in
          >concerts with the VPO two weeks apart?
          >
          >As for the 1890 version, apparently the folks at Andante didn't see that
          >article.  This is still advertised as the Nowak edition.  It has been
          >suggested elsewhere that Furtwangler may have gotten an advanced copy,
          >but given what I've heard described as a particularly busy period in his
          >life, it is interesting that he'd take time to learn a new version.
          >Don't know...
          >
          >I guess next thing I need to do is try to compare the performances to
          >see if the timing differences are because they are different, or because
          >of pitching errors.
          >
          >Other thoughts?
          >
          >Thanks.
          >Ron Grames

          Furtwangler performed the Bruckner 8 only on April 10/11, 1954 in the Musikvereinssaal. Andante's date is spurious. The controversy surrounding this performance is a classic case where speculation displaced solid research. The tape was broadcast in Vienna in 1979 in honor of the 25th anniversary Furtwangler's death. The Austrian Radio announcer gave the date as April 10, 1954. Copies of this broadcast soon made their way to the tape underground. The performance was issued a few years later by Cetra in their Furtwangler LP series. This release propogated the most idiodic layout of the symphony I have ever encountered, with needless side breaks in two of the four movements.

          The idea that the performance was the Nowak edition came from reviews of this first release. It simply never occurred to critics that Furtwangler could have performed the 1892 (not 1890) first publication (Haslinger-Schlesinger-Lienau), even though this was the text he used in several performances prior to 1939. He then gave the premiere of the Haas edition, and Furtwangler performances from 1944 and 1949 were of Haas with his own amendments. Significantly, most of these amendments came from the 1892 score.

          Furtwangler may have had second thoughts about Haas's work in the Eighth, similar to those documented in his diaries in 1942. In that instance, Furtwangler was incredulous that Haas did not find the discovery of the 1889 printer's copy of the Fourth Symphony (full of changes in Bruckner's hand) to be of significance. Furtwangler continued to perform the 1889 score of the Fourth, and in this case had some solid evidence of the composer's involvment to support his choice.

          A subsequent release of this Eighth on Hunt/Arkadia CD perpetuated the Nowak myth, with the added supposition that Furtwangler was conducting a pre-publication version of that score. Once again it was not the critics but scholarly listeners who pointed out that the score was 1892. The controversy simmered as to whether this performance was Furtwangler at all, with Knappertsbusch advanced as a speculative possibility (again without any hard evidence).

          In 1992 I wrote a lengthy article for the US Furtwangler Society in which I analyzed the performance in some detail in an attempt to prove it was Furtwangler. That article prompted Henry Fogel to ask a Vienna contact whether the archives held any information concerning the edition Furtwangler conducted in 1954. The definitive answer came back - VPO parts of the 1892 score were signed by several players indicating they were used for the 1954 concert. This information was promptly published by the various Furtwangler Societies, and should have put to rest any notion about the Nowak edition (or even about whether the performance was authentic Furtwangler). Sadly Andante have resurrected the mistaken notion about edition, and added an erroneous date to the mix as well. Shame, shame.

          Mark Kluge
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        • Lee Schipper
          Thanks Mark.. makes one think of the film Music, Lies,and Radio Tapes -- on top of all the real fakes (liike Schubert 2 and 3), we have genuine
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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            Thanks Mark.. makes one think of the film "Music, Lies,and Radio Tapes"
            -- on top of all the "real" fakes (liike Schubert 2 and 3), we have
            genuine performances genuinely misunderstood.....

            >>> MWKluge@... 8/12/2004 7:56:46 AM >>>
            In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Grames,
            Ronald" <RGrames@...> writes:

            >Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is
            >the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I've seen. Since
            >those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume its authenticity
            is
            >verified. That leaves the April 10th performance, which Hunt's
            >discography discribes as controversial, with some saying it is
            actually
            >Knappertsbusch conducting.
            >
            >Is it likely that Furtwangler would have performed the same piece in
            >concerts with the VPO two weeks apart?
            >
            >As for the 1890 version, apparently the folks at Andante didn't see
            that
            >article. This is still advertised as the Nowak edition. It has been
            >suggested elsewhere that Furtwangler may have gotten an advanced
            copy,
            >but given what I've heard described as a particularly busy period in
            his
            >life, it is interesting that he'd take time to learn a new version.
            >Don't know...
            >
            >I guess next thing I need to do is try to compare the performances to
            >see if the timing differences are because they are different, or
            because
            >of pitching errors.
            >
            >Other thoughts?
            >
            >Thanks.
            >Ron Grames

            Furtwangler performed the Bruckner 8 only on April 10/11, 1954 in the
            Musikvereinssaal. Andante's date is spurious. The controversy
            surrounding this performance is a classic case where speculation
            displaced solid research. The tape was broadcast in Vienna in 1979 in
            honor of the 25th anniversary Furtwangler's death. The Austrian Radio
            announcer gave the date as April 10, 1954. Copies of this broadcast
            soon made their way to the tape underground. The performance was issued
            a few years later by Cetra in their Furtwangler LP series. This release
            propogated the most idiodic layout of the symphony I have ever
            encountered, with needless side breaks in two of the four movements.

            The idea that the performance was the Nowak edition came from reviews
            of this first release. It simply never occurred to critics that
            Furtwangler could have performed the 1892 (not 1890) first publication
            (Haslinger-Schlesinger-Lienau), even though this was the text he used in
            several performances prior to 1939. He then gave the premiere of the
            Haas edition, and Furtwangler performances from 1944 and 1949 were of
            Haas with his own amendments. Significantly, most of these amendments
            came from the 1892 score.

            Furtwangler may have had second thoughts about Haas's work in the
            Eighth, similar to those documented in his diaries in 1942. In that
            instance, Furtwangler was incredulous that Haas did not find the
            discovery of the 1889 printer's copy of the Fourth Symphony (full of
            changes in Bruckner's hand) to be of significance. Furtwangler
            continued to perform the 1889 score of the Fourth, and in this case had
            some solid evidence of the composer's involvment to support his choice.


            A subsequent release of this Eighth on Hunt/Arkadia CD perpetuated the
            Nowak myth, with the added supposition that Furtwangler was conducting a
            pre-publication version of that score. Once again it was not the
            critics but scholarly listeners who pointed out that the score was 1892.
            The controversy simmered as to whether this performance was Furtwangler
            at all, with Knappertsbusch advanced as a speculative possibility (again
            without any hard evidence).

            In 1992 I wrote a lengthy article for the US Furtwangler Society in
            which I analyzed the performance in some detail in an attempt to prove
            it was Furtwangler. That article prompted Henry Fogel to ask a Vienna
            contact whether the archives held any information concerning the
            edition Furtwangler conducted in 1954. The definitive answer came back
            - VPO parts of the 1892 score were signed by several players indicating
            they were used for the 1954 concert. This information was promptly
            published by the various Furtwangler Societies, and should have put to
            rest any notion about the Nowak edition (or even about whether the
            performance was authentic Furtwangler). Sadly Andante have resurrected
            the mistaken notion about edition, and added an erroneous date to the
            mix as well. Shame, shame.

            Mark Kluge
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          • Grames, Ronald
            My thanks, as well, to all who responded. Now I need to figure out why the timings are different. I assume it will be pitching. Has anyone already compared
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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              My thanks, as well, to all who responded. Now I need to figure out why
              the timings are different. I assume it will be pitching. Has anyone
              already compared these two issues - the Arkadia and the Andante? I
              don't have them here, but as I remember the Arkadia times in at just
              short of 80 minutes, and the Andante runs to over 81 minutes. If all
              the times are a bit shorter on the Arkadia, I suppose I could suspect
              they sped things up a bit to fit the work onto one CD.

              Ron

              -----Original Message-----
              From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
              Lee Schipper
              Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:10 AM
              To: furt-l@...
              Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

              Thanks Mark.. makes one think of the film "Music, Lies,and Radio Tapes"
              -- on top of all the "real" fakes (liike Schubert 2 and 3), we have
              genuine performances genuinely misunderstood.....

              >>> MWKluge@... 8/12/2004 7:56:46 AM >>>
              In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Grames,
              Ronald" <RGrames@...> writes:

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            • Grames, Ronald
              Hmmm. I know this is turning a bit off-topic, but wanted to follow up on this message from Mr. Clark. I had heard about the Das Lied controversy - here, I
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                Hmmm. I know this is turning a bit off-topic, but wanted to follow up
                on this message from Mr. Clark. I had heard about the Das Lied
                controversy - here, I believe, as well as in Gramophone - as well as
                Andante's response. The live concert explanation seemed plausible until
                now. Was there even a live performance by these artists at that time?

                Ron

                -----Original Message-----
                From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                Simon Clark
                Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:59 PM
                To: furt-l@...
                Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th (plus Kna, Klemperer and Jochum)

                I would not trust Andante's dating any more than any other.

                They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier and Patzak
                conducted by Walter which Andante claim is a live performance in Vienna
                in 1953 at around the time of the Decca commercial recording. Andante
                say their tape was provided by Austrian Radio.

                This has been the subject of some controversy - in Gramophone for
                example - but, using simultaneous playback, the Andante issue is,
                without any doubt, itself the Decca commercial.

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              • Lee Schipper
                As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes. Is the arcadia on 1 CD or 2?
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                  As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and
                  again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes. Is the arcadia
                  on 1 CD or 2? Mine is on 1 cd..and sadly with digital technology it is
                  possible to speed up without changing pitch......Otherwise, 1 minute in
                  80 is roughly 1 fifth of a half tone, roughly the difference between A -
                  440 and = 436. Given the wide differences of opinion over which tuning
                  standard to use, even one part in 80 is not to be ignored...

                  >>> RGrames@... 8/12/2004 9:56:24 AM >>>
                  My thanks, as well, to all who responded. Now I need to figure out
                  why
                  the timings are different. I assume it will be pitching. Has anyone
                  already compared these two issues - the Arkadia and the Andante? I
                  don't have them here, but as I remember the Arkadia times in at just
                  short of 80 minutes, and the Andante runs to over 81 minutes. If all
                  the times are a bit shorter on the Arkadia, I suppose I could suspect
                  they sped things up a bit to fit the work onto one CD.

                  Ron

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                  Lee Schipper
                  Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:10 AM
                  To: furt-l@...
                  Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

                  Thanks Mark.. makes one think of the film "Music, Lies,and Radio
                  Tapes"
                  -- on top of all the "real" fakes (liike Schubert 2 and 3), we have
                  genuine performances genuinely misunderstood.....

                  >>> MWKluge@... 8/12/2004 7:56:46 AM >>>
                  In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  "Grames,
                  Ronald" <RGrames@...> writes:

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                • Manny Nadelman
                  Yes, as issued by Tahra.  The program also included Mozart s 40th Symphony, which has been issued on
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                    <html><div style='background-color:'><P class=RTE>Yes, as issued by Tahra.  The program also included Mozart's 40th Symphony, which has been issued on several labels. </P>
                    <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----
                    <DIV></DIV>From: "Grames, Ronald" <RGrames@...>
                    <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: furt-l@...
                    <DIV></DIV>To: <furt-l@...>
                    <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th (plus Kna, Klemperer and Jochum)
                    <DIV></DIV>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:22:06 -0500
                    <DIV></DIV>
                    <DIV></DIV>Hmmm.  I know this is turning a bit off-topic, but wanted to follow up
                    <DIV></DIV>on this message from Mr. Clark.  I had heard about the Das Lied
                    <DIV></DIV>controversy - here, I believe, as well as in Gramophone - as well as
                    <DIV></DIV>Andante's response.  The live concert explanation seemed plausible until
                    <DIV></DIV>now.  Was there even a live performance by these artists at that time?
                    <DIV></DIV>
                    <DIV></DIV>Ron
                    <DIV></DIV>
                    <DIV></DIV>-----Original Message-----
                    <DIV></DIV>From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                    <DIV></DIV>Simon Clark
                    <DIV></DIV>Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:59 PM
                    <DIV></DIV>To: furt-l@...
                    <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th (plus Kna, Klemperer and Jochum)
                    <DIV></DIV>
                    <DIV></DIV>I would not trust Andante's dating any more than any other.
                    <DIV></DIV>
                    <DIV></DIV>They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier and Patzak
                    <DIV></DIV>conducted by Walter which Andante claim is a live performance in Vienna
                    <DIV></DIV>in 1953 at around the time of the Decca commercial recording.  Andante
                    <DIV></DIV>say their tape was provided by Austrian Radio.
                    <DIV></DIV>
                    <DIV></DIV>This has been the subject of some controversy - in Gramophone for
                    <DIV></DIV>example - but, using simultaneous playback, the Andante issue is,
                    <DIV></DIV>without any doubt, itself the Decca commercial.
                    <DIV></DIV>
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                    <DIV></DIV></div></html>
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                  • Grames, Ronald
                    The Arkadia is on one CD - hence my suspicion. And since the VPO tunes high, if the speed was changed without resampling, it would make the pitch higher
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                      The Arkadia is on one CD - hence my suspicion. And since the VPO tunes
                      high, if the speed was changed without resampling, it would make the
                      pitch higher still. I have heard pitch changes that small change the
                      character of a performance.

                      I, unfortunately, do not have the means to check that directly. I could
                      capture a section of each and play the consecutively...

                      Ron

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                      Lee Schipper
                      Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:04 AM
                      To: furt-l@...
                      Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

                      As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and
                      again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes. Is the arcadia
                      on 1 CD or 2? Mine is on 1 cd..and sadly with digital technology it is
                      possible to speed up without changing pitch......Otherwise, 1 minute in
                      80 is roughly 1 fifth of a half tone, roughly the difference between A -
                      440 and = 436. Given the wide differences of opinion over which tuning
                      standard to use, even one part in 80 is not to be ignored...
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                    • Deryk Barker
                      ... Genuine Furtwa ngler (which I m not disputing) or genuine Nowak? (Which others have disputed and I merely quote) ... * POSTED to furt-l - the Furtwangler
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                        Lee Schipper wrote:

                        >My recollection is that my tape from 1954 has announcers and is clearly
                        >Austrain radio -- I was convinced this was genuine..
                        >
                        >
                        Genuine Furtwa"ngler (which I'm not disputing) or genuine Nowak? (Which
                        others have disputed and I merely quote)

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                      • MWKluge@aol.com
                        In a message dated 8/11/04 6:10:32 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I am convinced the performance of which Simon speaks is authentic Klemperer. What is lacking
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 13, 2004
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                          In a message dated 8/11/04 6:10:32 PM Central Daylight Time,
                          simonclark99@... writes:

                          > I would not trust Andante's dating any more than any
                          > other.
                          >
                          > They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier
                          > and Patzak conducted by Walter which Andante claim is
                          > a live performance in Vienna in 1953 at around the
                          > time of the Decca commercial recording. Andante say
                          > their tape was provided by Austrian Radio.
                          >
                          > This has been the subject of some controversy - in
                          > Gramophone for example - but, using simultaneous
                          > playback, the Andante issue is, without any doubt,
                          > itself the Decca commercial.
                          >
                          > But there are other high profile examples of problems
                          > about the authenticity or dating of live Bruckner
                          > performances which may be of interest.
                          >
                          > Klemperer's uncut 1964 8th for example - is it or
                          > isn't it him? And which orchestra and which date?
                          > And which of the versions claiming to be Klemperer is
                          > the correct one (if any)?

                          I am convinced the performance of which Simon speaks is authentic Klemperer.
                          What is lacking is definitive documentation. The true date and venue remain
                          unknown. It should be ruled out however is that the recording is Klemperer's
                          1964 Festival Hall performance with the Philharmonia. There is no audience to
                          be heard (pointing to the tape in question possibly being a BBC studio
                          performance). Even more telling, there are eyewitness accounts of the 1964 concert
                          that establish the fact that Klemperer made cuts in the finale on that
                          occasion, as he did in his 1970 studio recording.

                          > Kna conducted Bruckner's 9th two or three times within
                          > the space of a few days in 1950. At leat two of these
                          > survive and the dates are constantly swapped by
                          > different sources.

                          This one should be straightforward. Kna gave two concerts with the BPO in
                          the Titania Palast on 29-30 January 1950, consisting of Schubert's Unfinished
                          Symphony and Bruckner 9. A tape of one of these concert performances of the
                          Bruckner survives, and is currently available from Music & Arts (and possibly
                          Tahra). Kna also made a recording for broadcast with the same forces of Bruckner
                          9 on 28 January 1950. There is no audience in this case, but there is the
                          distinctive sound of an airplane heard over the opening moments. This latter
                          performance has been issued with various 1950 dates, no doubt because some
                          confused it with the concert tape - Tahra issued it with the correct date, and that
                          should settle the manner. We should recall that precise dating of historic
                          recordings has reached a higher standard of late than that which prevailed in,
                          say, the 1980s. There is obviously still room for improvement, but at last
                          people are turning to archives, original programs, and contemporary reviews
                          rather than just guessing.

                          > And Eugen Jochum's last performance of the 9th with
                          > the Munich PO shortly before his death. Is it Jochum?
                          > The Munich PO says "no" but copies from more than one
                          > source - none of them with commentary, however - claim
                          > to be conducted by Jochum.

                          I too would welcome clarification concerning this one.

                          Mark
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                        • Grames, Ronald
                          A check of the Arkadia and Andante Bruckner 8th s revealed that they are exactly the same performance. There are shared distinctive audience noises and minor
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 13, 2004
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                            A check of the Arkadia and Andante Bruckner 8th's revealed that they are
                            exactly the same performance. There are shared distinctive audience
                            noises and minor instrumental mishaps that make that certain. The
                            Arkadia recording's timings are each proportionally shorter than the
                            Andante, with the exception of the last. Here, the Arkadia ends with a
                            quick cutoff with fake resonance added. Andande includes some of the
                            applause. The Arkadia sounds slighly higher in pitch, suggesting a
                            simple speeding up of the tape (this was a 1991 transfer) but I did not
                            set up a side by side comparison.

                            In case anyone was interested...

                            Ron Grames

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                            Lee Schipper
                            Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:04 AM
                            To: furt-l@...
                            Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

                            As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and
                            again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes. Is the arcadia
                            on 1 CD or 2? Mine is on 1 cd..and sadly with digital technology it is
                            possible to speed up without changing pitch......Otherwise, 1 minute in
                            80 is roughly 1 fifth of a half tone, roughly the difference between A -
                            440 and = 436. Given the wide differences of opinion over which tuning
                            standard to use, even one part in 80 is not to be ignored...

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                          • Manny Nadelman
                            Concerning pitch: The otherwise excellent EMI issue of the Furtwangler/Flagstad Fidelio from 1950 is
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 13, 2004
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                              <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>
                              <P>Concerning pitch: The otherwise excellent EMI issue of the Furtwangler/Flagstad Fidelio from 1950 is pitched about a quarter-tone low (compared to the 1953 studio recording).  Correcting the pitch makes a slight but noticeable change in the timbre of the sound and the intensity of the performance.</P></DIV>
                              <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----
                              <DIV></DIV>From: "Grames, Ronald" <RGrames@...>
                              <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: furt-l@...
                              <DIV></DIV>To: <furt-l@...>
                              <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th
                              <DIV></DIV>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:02:19 -0500
                              <DIV></DIV>
                              <DIV></DIV>The Arkadia is on one CD - hence my suspicion.  And since the VPO tunes
                              <DIV></DIV>high, if the speed was changed without resampling, it would make the
                              <DIV></DIV>pitch higher still.  I have heard pitch changes that small change the
                              <DIV></DIV>character of a performance.
                              <DIV></DIV>
                              <DIV></DIV>I, unfortunately, do not have the means to check that directly.  I could
                              <DIV></DIV>capture a section of each and play the consecutively...
                              <DIV></DIV>
                              <DIV></DIV>Ron
                              <DIV></DIV>
                              <DIV></DIV>-----Original Message-----
                              <DIV></DIV>From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                              <DIV></DIV>Lee Schipper
                              <DIV></DIV>Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:04 AM
                              <DIV></DIV>To: furt-l@...
                              <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th
                              <DIV></DIV>
                              <DIV></DIV>As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and
                              <DIV></DIV>again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes.  Is the arcadia
                              <DIV></DIV>on 1 CD or 2? Mine is on 1 cd..and sadly with digital technology it is
                              <DIV></DIV>possible to speed up without changing pitch......Otherwise, 1 minute in
                              <DIV></DIV>80 is roughly 1 fifth of a half tone, roughly the difference between A -
                              <DIV></DIV>440 and  = 436. Given the wide differences of opinion over which tuning
                              <DIV></DIV>standard to use, even one part in 80 is not to be ignored...
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                            • Manny Nadelman
                              On April 24, 1954, Furtwangler was mostly likely in Berlin rehearsing the BPO for its April 27 concert
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>
                                <P>On April 24, 1954, Furtwangler was mostly likely in Berlin rehearsing the BPO for its April 27 concert and subsequent tour.</P></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----
                                <DIV></DIV>From: "Grames, Ronald" <RGrames@...>
                                <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: furt-l@...
                                <DIV></DIV>To: <furt-l@...>
                                <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th
                                <DIV></DIV>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:08:53 -0500
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is
                                <DIV></DIV>the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I've seen.  Since
                                <DIV></DIV>those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume its authenticity is
                                <DIV></DIV>verified.  That leaves the April 10th performance, which Hunt's
                                <DIV></DIV>discography discribes as controversial, with some saying it is actually
                                <DIV></DIV>Knappertsbusch conducting.
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>Is it likely that Furtwangler would have performed the same piece in
                                <DIV></DIV>concerts with the VPO two weeks apart?
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>As for the 1890 version, apparently the folks at Andante didn't see that
                                <DIV></DIV>article.  This is still advertised as the Nowak edition.  It has been
                                <DIV></DIV>suggested elsewhere that Furtwangler may have gotten an advanced copy,
                                <DIV></DIV>but given what I've heard described as a particularly busy period in his
                                <DIV></DIV>life, it is interesting that he'd take time to learn a new version.
                                <DIV></DIV>Don't know...
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>I guess next thing I need to do is try to compare the performances to
                                <DIV></DIV>see if the timing differences are because they are different, or because
                                <DIV></DIV>of pitching errors.
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>Other thoughts?
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>Thanks.
                                <DIV></DIV>Ron Grames
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>-----Original Message-----
                                <DIV></DIV>From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                                <DIV></DIV>Lee Schipper
                                <DIV></DIV>Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:34 PM
                                <DIV></DIV>To: furt-l@...; dbarker@...
                                <DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>My recollection is that my tape from 1954 has announcers and is clearly
                                <DIV></DIV>Austrain radio -- I was convinced this was genuine..
                                <DIV></DIV>
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                              • Simon Clark
                                ... Yes, as issued by Tahra. The program also included Mozart s 40th Symphony, which has been issued on several labels. So the Tahra could well be authetically
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 14, 2004
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                                  --- Manny Nadelman <enadelman@...> wrote:
                                  Yes, as issued by Tahra. The program also included
                                  Mozart's 40th Symphony, which has been issued on
                                  several labels.

                                  So the Tahra could well be authetically live? I don't
                                  have it but will get it now! Thanks, Mr Nadelman!

                                  Simon







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                                • Manny Nadelman
                                  The Mozart is not part of that Tahra recording but is included in a Tahra set otherwise devoted to a
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 14, 2004
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                                    <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>
                                    <P>The Mozart is not part of that Tahra recording but is included in a Tahra set otherwise devoted to a complete concert from Stockholm including Mozart's 39th Symphony and Schubert's 9th.<BR></P></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----
                                    <DIV></DIV>From: Simon Clark <simonclark99@...>
                                    <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: furt-l@...
                                    <DIV></DIV>To: furt-l@...
                                    <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th (plus Kna, Klemperer and Jochum)
                                    <DIV></DIV>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:45:03 +0100 (BST)
                                    <DIV></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>  --- Manny Nadelman <enadelman@...> wrote:
                                    <DIV></DIV>Yes, as issued by Tahra. The program also included
                                    <DIV></DIV>Mozart's 40th Symphony, which has been issued on
                                    <DIV></DIV>several labels.
                                    <DIV></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>So the Tahra could well be authetically live?  I don't
                                    <DIV></DIV>have it but will get it now!  Thanks, Mr Nadelman!
                                    <DIV></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>Simon
                                    <DIV></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>
                                    <DIV></DIV>
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