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Re: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

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  • Deryk Barker
    ... I haven t checked in a while, but I do seem to recall in an old WFS UK newsletter that somebody had estabished that this is *not* the Nowak but the 1890
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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      Ronald E. Grames wrote:

      >Drat, forgot to set my new version client to text only for furt-l...
      >
      >What I asked was if anyone knows the story behind the April 1954 performance
      >of the Nowak version of the Bruckner 8th generally attributed to
      >Furtwangler, but disputed by some because it wasn't the version used by
      >Furtwangler, and because the Nowak wasn't published until 1955. The
      >discography in The Furtwangler Record mentions the controversy, and gives
      >the date of the performance as April 10, 1954.
      >
      >
      I haven't checked in a while, but I do seem to recall in an old WFS UK
      newsletter that somebody had estabished that this is *not* the Nowak but
      the 1890 published version. There are, in fact, as I understand it, few
      differences between 1890 and Nowak.

      Why would WF suddenly decide to perform 1890 after 16 years of Haas (or
      Haas/Furtwaengler)? Perhaps because of the imminent publication of Nowak.

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    • Lee Schipper
      My recollection is that my tape from 1954 has announcers and is clearly Austrain radio -- I was convinced this was genuine.. ... performance ... by ... gives
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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        My recollection is that my tape from 1954 has announcers and is clearly
        Austrain radio -- I was convinced this was genuine..

        >>> dbarker@... 8/11/2004 2:18:00 PM >>>
        Ronald E. Grames wrote:

        >Drat, forgot to set my new version client to text only for furt-l...
        >
        >What I asked was if anyone knows the story behind the April 1954
        performance
        >of the Nowak version of the Bruckner 8th generally attributed to
        >Furtwangler, but disputed by some because it wasn't the version used
        by
        >Furtwangler, and because the Nowak wasn't published until 1955. The
        >discography in The Furtwangler Record mentions the controversy, and
        gives
        >the date of the performance as April 10, 1954.
        >
        >
        I haven't checked in a while, but I do seem to recall in an old WFS UK

        newsletter that somebody had estabished that this is *not* the Nowak
        but
        the 1890 published version. There are, in fact, as I understand it, few

        differences between 1890 and Nowak.

        Why would WF suddenly decide to perform 1890 after 16 years of Haas (or

        Haas/Furtwaengler)? Perhaps because of the imminent publication of
        Nowak.

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      • Grames, Ronald
        Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I ve seen. Since those are taken
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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          Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is
          the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I've seen. Since
          those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume its authenticity is
          verified. That leaves the April 10th performance, which Hunt's
          discography discribes as controversial, with some saying it is actually
          Knappertsbusch conducting.

          Is it likely that Furtwangler would have performed the same piece in
          concerts with the VPO two weeks apart?

          As for the 1890 version, apparently the folks at Andante didn't see that
          article. This is still advertised as the Nowak edition. It has been
          suggested elsewhere that Furtwangler may have gotten an advanced copy,
          but given what I've heard described as a particularly busy period in his
          life, it is interesting that he'd take time to learn a new version.
          Don't know...

          I guess next thing I need to do is try to compare the performances to
          see if the timing differences are because they are different, or because
          of pitching errors.

          Other thoughts?

          Thanks.
          Ron Grames

          -----Original Message-----
          From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
          Lee Schipper
          Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:34 PM
          To: furt-l@...; dbarker@...
          Subject: Re: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

          My recollection is that my tape from 1954 has announcers and is clearly
          Austrain radio -- I was convinced this was genuine..

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        • ParsifalCSA@aol.com
          I have the Andante incarnation as well as a private edition of that 54 version on a label that I believe called itself Elaboration. I also recall a tape
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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            I have the Andante incarnation as well as a private edition of that '54 version on a label that I believe called itself "Elaboration." I also recall a tape that an Austrian friend of mine had at one time, also with an announcer on it. I don't think there is much doubt that it is Furtwangler.

            Indeed, be it a pre-Nowak 1890 or whatever, it is beautifully rendered. While there is not the same sharp-edged angst and searing tension that one finds in the Oct. '44 8th, there is a kind of, for better words, layered clarity, a grandeur, and an overarching vision that really comes through. It's a valuable edition to the discography. Berkshire Outlet was selling the set (with Bohm and von Karajan Bruckner symphonies) at a greatly reduced price---as was Daedalus, as well. It still may be available that way.

            Boyd Cathey
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          • Lee Schipper
            Can t remember what date, but I might be able to check. I do know this. I ve heard the other two B 8ths over and over again, and they feel the same as F s. I
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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              Can't remember what date, but I might be able to check.

              I do know this. I've heard the other two B 8ths over and over again,
              and they feel the same as F's. I think I have
              a Kna 8th and it is a different concept, independent of which edition
              it is..


              >>> RGrames@... 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM >>>
              Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is
              the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I've seen. Since
              those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume its authenticity
              is
              verified. That leaves the April 10th performance, which Hunt's
              discography discribes as controversial, with some saying it is
              actually
              Knappertsbusch conducting.

              Is it likely that Furtwangler would have performed the same piece in
              concerts with the VPO two weeks apart?

              As for the 1890 version, apparently the folks at Andante didn't see
              that
              article. This is still advertised as the Nowak edition. It has been
              suggested elsewhere that Furtwangler may have gotten an advanced copy,
              but given what I've heard described as a particularly busy period in
              his
              life, it is interesting that he'd take time to learn a new version.
              Don't know...

              I guess next thing I need to do is try to compare the performances to
              see if the timing differences are because they are different, or
              because
              of pitching errors.

              Other thoughts?

              Thanks.
              Ron Grames

              -----Original Message-----
              From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
              Lee Schipper
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:34 PM
              To: furt-l@...; dbarker@...
              Subject: Re: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

              My recollection is that my tape from 1954 has announcers and is
              clearly
              Austrain radio -- I was convinced this was genuine..

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            • Lee Schipper
              One of our friends -- I wont say whom but let him speak for himself -- made a nice private CD labeled 8-10 April calling it the Schalk Version with cross
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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                One of our friends -- I wont say whom but let him speak for himself --
                made a nice private CD labeled 8-10 April calling it the Schalk Version
                with cross references to CETRA, Hunt, and Emblam LP/CDs. Timings 79.54
                (only six seconds more and the CD would have burst)...Claims the source
                was someone at the BbBC.. I'll listen and report back.

                >>> ParsifalCSA@... 8/11/2004 3:15:18 PM >>>
                I have the Andante incarnation as well as a private edition of that '54
                version on a label that I believe called itself "Elaboration." I also
                recall a tape that an Austrian friend of mine had at one time, also with
                an announcer on it. I don't think there is much doubt that it is
                Furtwangler.

                Indeed, be it a pre-Nowak 1890 or whatever, it is beautifully rendered.
                While there is not the same sharp-edged angst and searing tension that
                one finds in the Oct. '44 8th, there is a kind of, for better words,
                layered clarity, a grandeur, and an overarching vision that really comes
                through. It's a valuable edition to the discography. Berkshire Outlet
                was selling the set (with Bohm and von Karajan Bruckner symphonies) at a
                greatly reduced price---as was Daedalus, as well. It still may be
                available that way.

                Boyd Cathey
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              • Lee Schipper
                I note that the inside of this private CD says that the recording was broadcast by the BBC Radio 3 on June 22 1986 and Jan 17 1986.. ... One of our friends --
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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                  I note that the inside of this private CD says that the recording was
                  broadcast by the BBC Radio 3 on June 22 1986 and Jan 17 1986..

                  >>> SCHIPPER@... 8/11/2004 3:40:30 PM >>>
                  One of our friends -- I wont say whom but let him speak for himself --
                  made a nice private CD labeled 8-10 April calling it the Schalk
                  Version
                  with cross references to CETRA, Hunt, and Emblam LP/CDs. Timings 79.54
                  (only six seconds more and the CD would have burst)...Claims the
                  source
                  was someone at the BbBC.. I'll listen and report back.

                  >>> ParsifalCSA@... 8/11/2004 3:15:18 PM >>>
                  I have the Andante incarnation as well as a private edition of that
                  '54
                  version on a label that I believe called itself "Elaboration." I also
                  recall a tape that an Austrian friend of mine had at one time, also
                  with
                  an announcer on it. I don't think there is much doubt that it is
                  Furtwangler.

                  Indeed, be it a pre-Nowak 1890 or whatever, it is beautifully
                  rendered.
                  While there is not the same sharp-edged angst and searing tension that
                  one finds in the Oct. '44 8th, there is a kind of, for better words,
                  layered clarity, a grandeur, and an overarching vision that really
                  comes
                  through. It's a valuable edition to the discography. Berkshire Outlet
                  was selling the set (with Bohm and von Karajan Bruckner symphonies) at
                  a
                  greatly reduced price---as was Daedalus, as well. It still may be
                  available that way.

                  Boyd Cathey
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                • Simon Clark
                  ... I would not trust Andante s dating any more than any other. They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier and Patzak conducted by Walter which
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 11, 2004
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                    > RGrames@... 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM wrote:
                    > Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The
                    > Andante release is the first mention of a
                    > performance on the 24th that I've seen. Since
                    > those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume
                    > its authenticity is verified. That leaves the
                    > April 10th performance, which Hunt's discography
                    > discribes as controversial, with some saying it is
                    > actually Knappertsbusch conducting.


                    I would not trust Andante's dating any more than any
                    other.

                    They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier
                    and Patzak conducted by Walter which Andante claim is
                    a live performance in Vienna in 1953 at around the
                    time of the Decca commercial recording. Andante say
                    their tape was provided by Austrian Radio.

                    This has been the subject of some controversy - in
                    Gramophone for example - but, using simultaneous
                    playback, the Andante issue is, without any doubt,
                    itself the Decca commercial.

                    But there are other high profile examples of problems
                    about the authenticity or dating of live Bruckner
                    performances which may be of interest.

                    Klemperer's uncut 1964 8th for example - is it or
                    isn't it him? And which orchestra and which date?
                    And which of the versions claiming to be Klemperer is
                    the correct one (if any)?

                    Kna conducted Bruckner's 9th two or three times within
                    the space of a few days in 1950. At leat two of these
                    survive and the dates are constantly swapped by
                    different sources.

                    And Eugen Jochum's last performance of the 9th with
                    the Munich PO shortly before his death. Is it Jochum?
                    The Munich PO says "no" but copies from more than one
                    source - none of them with commentary, however - claim
                    to be conducted by Jochum.

                    Does anyone have definitive information about any of
                    these?

                    Simon Clark








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                  • MWKluge@aol.com
                    ... Furtwangler performed the Bruckner 8 only on April 10/11, 1954 in the Musikvereinssaal. Andante s date is spurious. The controversy surrounding this
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                      In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Grames, Ronald" <RGrames@...> writes:

                      >Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is
                      >the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I've seen.  Since
                      >those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume its authenticity is
                      >verified.  That leaves the April 10th performance, which Hunt's
                      >discography discribes as controversial, with some saying it is actually
                      >Knappertsbusch conducting.
                      >
                      >Is it likely that Furtwangler would have performed the same piece in
                      >concerts with the VPO two weeks apart?
                      >
                      >As for the 1890 version, apparently the folks at Andante didn't see that
                      >article.  This is still advertised as the Nowak edition.  It has been
                      >suggested elsewhere that Furtwangler may have gotten an advanced copy,
                      >but given what I've heard described as a particularly busy period in his
                      >life, it is interesting that he'd take time to learn a new version.
                      >Don't know...
                      >
                      >I guess next thing I need to do is try to compare the performances to
                      >see if the timing differences are because they are different, or because
                      >of pitching errors.
                      >
                      >Other thoughts?
                      >
                      >Thanks.
                      >Ron Grames

                      Furtwangler performed the Bruckner 8 only on April 10/11, 1954 in the Musikvereinssaal. Andante's date is spurious. The controversy surrounding this performance is a classic case where speculation displaced solid research. The tape was broadcast in Vienna in 1979 in honor of the 25th anniversary Furtwangler's death. The Austrian Radio announcer gave the date as April 10, 1954. Copies of this broadcast soon made their way to the tape underground. The performance was issued a few years later by Cetra in their Furtwangler LP series. This release propogated the most idiodic layout of the symphony I have ever encountered, with needless side breaks in two of the four movements.

                      The idea that the performance was the Nowak edition came from reviews of this first release. It simply never occurred to critics that Furtwangler could have performed the 1892 (not 1890) first publication (Haslinger-Schlesinger-Lienau), even though this was the text he used in several performances prior to 1939. He then gave the premiere of the Haas edition, and Furtwangler performances from 1944 and 1949 were of Haas with his own amendments. Significantly, most of these amendments came from the 1892 score.

                      Furtwangler may have had second thoughts about Haas's work in the Eighth, similar to those documented in his diaries in 1942. In that instance, Furtwangler was incredulous that Haas did not find the discovery of the 1889 printer's copy of the Fourth Symphony (full of changes in Bruckner's hand) to be of significance. Furtwangler continued to perform the 1889 score of the Fourth, and in this case had some solid evidence of the composer's involvment to support his choice.

                      A subsequent release of this Eighth on Hunt/Arkadia CD perpetuated the Nowak myth, with the added supposition that Furtwangler was conducting a pre-publication version of that score. Once again it was not the critics but scholarly listeners who pointed out that the score was 1892. The controversy simmered as to whether this performance was Furtwangler at all, with Knappertsbusch advanced as a speculative possibility (again without any hard evidence).

                      In 1992 I wrote a lengthy article for the US Furtwangler Society in which I analyzed the performance in some detail in an attempt to prove it was Furtwangler. That article prompted Henry Fogel to ask a Vienna contact whether the archives held any information concerning the edition Furtwangler conducted in 1954. The definitive answer came back - VPO parts of the 1892 score were signed by several players indicating they were used for the 1954 concert. This information was promptly published by the various Furtwangler Societies, and should have put to rest any notion about the Nowak edition (or even about whether the performance was authentic Furtwangler). Sadly Andante have resurrected the mistaken notion about edition, and added an erroneous date to the mix as well. Shame, shame.

                      Mark Kluge
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                    • Lee Schipper
                      Thanks Mark.. makes one think of the film Music, Lies,and Radio Tapes -- on top of all the real fakes (liike Schubert 2 and 3), we have genuine
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                        Thanks Mark.. makes one think of the film "Music, Lies,and Radio Tapes"
                        -- on top of all the "real" fakes (liike Schubert 2 and 3), we have
                        genuine performances genuinely misunderstood.....

                        >>> MWKluge@... 8/12/2004 7:56:46 AM >>>
                        In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Grames,
                        Ronald" <RGrames@...> writes:

                        >Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is
                        >the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I've seen. Since
                        >those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume its authenticity
                        is
                        >verified. That leaves the April 10th performance, which Hunt's
                        >discography discribes as controversial, with some saying it is
                        actually
                        >Knappertsbusch conducting.
                        >
                        >Is it likely that Furtwangler would have performed the same piece in
                        >concerts with the VPO two weeks apart?
                        >
                        >As for the 1890 version, apparently the folks at Andante didn't see
                        that
                        >article. This is still advertised as the Nowak edition. It has been
                        >suggested elsewhere that Furtwangler may have gotten an advanced
                        copy,
                        >but given what I've heard described as a particularly busy period in
                        his
                        >life, it is interesting that he'd take time to learn a new version.
                        >Don't know...
                        >
                        >I guess next thing I need to do is try to compare the performances to
                        >see if the timing differences are because they are different, or
                        because
                        >of pitching errors.
                        >
                        >Other thoughts?
                        >
                        >Thanks.
                        >Ron Grames

                        Furtwangler performed the Bruckner 8 only on April 10/11, 1954 in the
                        Musikvereinssaal. Andante's date is spurious. The controversy
                        surrounding this performance is a classic case where speculation
                        displaced solid research. The tape was broadcast in Vienna in 1979 in
                        honor of the 25th anniversary Furtwangler's death. The Austrian Radio
                        announcer gave the date as April 10, 1954. Copies of this broadcast
                        soon made their way to the tape underground. The performance was issued
                        a few years later by Cetra in their Furtwangler LP series. This release
                        propogated the most idiodic layout of the symphony I have ever
                        encountered, with needless side breaks in two of the four movements.

                        The idea that the performance was the Nowak edition came from reviews
                        of this first release. It simply never occurred to critics that
                        Furtwangler could have performed the 1892 (not 1890) first publication
                        (Haslinger-Schlesinger-Lienau), even though this was the text he used in
                        several performances prior to 1939. He then gave the premiere of the
                        Haas edition, and Furtwangler performances from 1944 and 1949 were of
                        Haas with his own amendments. Significantly, most of these amendments
                        came from the 1892 score.

                        Furtwangler may have had second thoughts about Haas's work in the
                        Eighth, similar to those documented in his diaries in 1942. In that
                        instance, Furtwangler was incredulous that Haas did not find the
                        discovery of the 1889 printer's copy of the Fourth Symphony (full of
                        changes in Bruckner's hand) to be of significance. Furtwangler
                        continued to perform the 1889 score of the Fourth, and in this case had
                        some solid evidence of the composer's involvment to support his choice.


                        A subsequent release of this Eighth on Hunt/Arkadia CD perpetuated the
                        Nowak myth, with the added supposition that Furtwangler was conducting a
                        pre-publication version of that score. Once again it was not the
                        critics but scholarly listeners who pointed out that the score was 1892.
                        The controversy simmered as to whether this performance was Furtwangler
                        at all, with Knappertsbusch advanced as a speculative possibility (again
                        without any hard evidence).

                        In 1992 I wrote a lengthy article for the US Furtwangler Society in
                        which I analyzed the performance in some detail in an attempt to prove
                        it was Furtwangler. That article prompted Henry Fogel to ask a Vienna
                        contact whether the archives held any information concerning the
                        edition Furtwangler conducted in 1954. The definitive answer came back
                        - VPO parts of the 1892 score were signed by several players indicating
                        they were used for the 1954 concert. This information was promptly
                        published by the various Furtwangler Societies, and should have put to
                        rest any notion about the Nowak edition (or even about whether the
                        performance was authentic Furtwangler). Sadly Andante have resurrected
                        the mistaken notion about edition, and added an erroneous date to the
                        mix as well. Shame, shame.

                        Mark Kluge
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                      • Grames, Ronald
                        My thanks, as well, to all who responded. Now I need to figure out why the timings are different. I assume it will be pitching. Has anyone already compared
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                          My thanks, as well, to all who responded. Now I need to figure out why
                          the timings are different. I assume it will be pitching. Has anyone
                          already compared these two issues - the Arkadia and the Andante? I
                          don't have them here, but as I remember the Arkadia times in at just
                          short of 80 minutes, and the Andante runs to over 81 minutes. If all
                          the times are a bit shorter on the Arkadia, I suppose I could suspect
                          they sped things up a bit to fit the work onto one CD.

                          Ron

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                          Lee Schipper
                          Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:10 AM
                          To: furt-l@...
                          Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

                          Thanks Mark.. makes one think of the film "Music, Lies,and Radio Tapes"
                          -- on top of all the "real" fakes (liike Schubert 2 and 3), we have
                          genuine performances genuinely misunderstood.....

                          >>> MWKluge@... 8/12/2004 7:56:46 AM >>>
                          In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Grames,
                          Ronald" <RGrames@...> writes:

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                        • Grames, Ronald
                          Hmmm. I know this is turning a bit off-topic, but wanted to follow up on this message from Mr. Clark. I had heard about the Das Lied controversy - here, I
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                            Hmmm. I know this is turning a bit off-topic, but wanted to follow up
                            on this message from Mr. Clark. I had heard about the Das Lied
                            controversy - here, I believe, as well as in Gramophone - as well as
                            Andante's response. The live concert explanation seemed plausible until
                            now. Was there even a live performance by these artists at that time?

                            Ron

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                            Simon Clark
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:59 PM
                            To: furt-l@...
                            Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th (plus Kna, Klemperer and Jochum)

                            I would not trust Andante's dating any more than any other.

                            They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier and Patzak
                            conducted by Walter which Andante claim is a live performance in Vienna
                            in 1953 at around the time of the Decca commercial recording. Andante
                            say their tape was provided by Austrian Radio.

                            This has been the subject of some controversy - in Gramophone for
                            example - but, using simultaneous playback, the Andante issue is,
                            without any doubt, itself the Decca commercial.

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                          • Lee Schipper
                            As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes. Is the arcadia on 1 CD or 2?
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                              As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and
                              again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes. Is the arcadia
                              on 1 CD or 2? Mine is on 1 cd..and sadly with digital technology it is
                              possible to speed up without changing pitch......Otherwise, 1 minute in
                              80 is roughly 1 fifth of a half tone, roughly the difference between A -
                              440 and = 436. Given the wide differences of opinion over which tuning
                              standard to use, even one part in 80 is not to be ignored...

                              >>> RGrames@... 8/12/2004 9:56:24 AM >>>
                              My thanks, as well, to all who responded. Now I need to figure out
                              why
                              the timings are different. I assume it will be pitching. Has anyone
                              already compared these two issues - the Arkadia and the Andante? I
                              don't have them here, but as I remember the Arkadia times in at just
                              short of 80 minutes, and the Andante runs to over 81 minutes. If all
                              the times are a bit shorter on the Arkadia, I suppose I could suspect
                              they sped things up a bit to fit the work onto one CD.

                              Ron

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                              Lee Schipper
                              Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:10 AM
                              To: furt-l@...
                              Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

                              Thanks Mark.. makes one think of the film "Music, Lies,and Radio
                              Tapes"
                              -- on top of all the "real" fakes (liike Schubert 2 and 3), we have
                              genuine performances genuinely misunderstood.....

                              >>> MWKluge@... 8/12/2004 7:56:46 AM >>>
                              In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                              "Grames,
                              Ronald" <RGrames@...> writes:

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                            • Manny Nadelman
                              Yes, as issued by Tahra.  The program also included Mozart s 40th Symphony, which has been issued on
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                                <html><div style='background-color:'><P class=RTE>Yes, as issued by Tahra.  The program also included Mozart's 40th Symphony, which has been issued on several labels. </P>
                                <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----
                                <DIV></DIV>From: "Grames, Ronald" <RGrames@...>
                                <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: furt-l@...
                                <DIV></DIV>To: <furt-l@...>
                                <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th (plus Kna, Klemperer and Jochum)
                                <DIV></DIV>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:22:06 -0500
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>Hmmm.  I know this is turning a bit off-topic, but wanted to follow up
                                <DIV></DIV>on this message from Mr. Clark.  I had heard about the Das Lied
                                <DIV></DIV>controversy - here, I believe, as well as in Gramophone - as well as
                                <DIV></DIV>Andante's response.  The live concert explanation seemed plausible until
                                <DIV></DIV>now.  Was there even a live performance by these artists at that time?
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>Ron
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>-----Original Message-----
                                <DIV></DIV>From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                                <DIV></DIV>Simon Clark
                                <DIV></DIV>Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:59 PM
                                <DIV></DIV>To: furt-l@...
                                <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th (plus Kna, Klemperer and Jochum)
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>I would not trust Andante's dating any more than any other.
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier and Patzak
                                <DIV></DIV>conducted by Walter which Andante claim is a live performance in Vienna
                                <DIV></DIV>in 1953 at around the time of the Decca commercial recording.  Andante
                                <DIV></DIV>say their tape was provided by Austrian Radio.
                                <DIV></DIV>
                                <DIV></DIV>This has been the subject of some controversy - in Gramophone for
                                <DIV></DIV>example - but, using simultaneous playback, the Andante issue is,
                                <DIV></DIV>without any doubt, itself the Decca commercial.
                                <DIV></DIV>
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                              • Grames, Ronald
                                The Arkadia is on one CD - hence my suspicion. And since the VPO tunes high, if the speed was changed without resampling, it would make the pitch higher
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                                  The Arkadia is on one CD - hence my suspicion. And since the VPO tunes
                                  high, if the speed was changed without resampling, it would make the
                                  pitch higher still. I have heard pitch changes that small change the
                                  character of a performance.

                                  I, unfortunately, do not have the means to check that directly. I could
                                  capture a section of each and play the consecutively...

                                  Ron

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                                  Lee Schipper
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:04 AM
                                  To: furt-l@...
                                  Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

                                  As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and
                                  again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes. Is the arcadia
                                  on 1 CD or 2? Mine is on 1 cd..and sadly with digital technology it is
                                  possible to speed up without changing pitch......Otherwise, 1 minute in
                                  80 is roughly 1 fifth of a half tone, roughly the difference between A -
                                  440 and = 436. Given the wide differences of opinion over which tuning
                                  standard to use, even one part in 80 is not to be ignored...
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                                • Deryk Barker
                                  ... Genuine Furtwa ngler (which I m not disputing) or genuine Nowak? (Which others have disputed and I merely quote) ... * POSTED to furt-l - the Furtwangler
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 12, 2004
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                                    Lee Schipper wrote:

                                    >My recollection is that my tape from 1954 has announcers and is clearly
                                    >Austrain radio -- I was convinced this was genuine..
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Genuine Furtwa"ngler (which I'm not disputing) or genuine Nowak? (Which
                                    others have disputed and I merely quote)

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                                  • MWKluge@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 8/11/04 6:10:32 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I am convinced the performance of which Simon speaks is authentic Klemperer. What is lacking
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                      In a message dated 8/11/04 6:10:32 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                      simonclark99@... writes:

                                      > I would not trust Andante's dating any more than any
                                      > other.
                                      >
                                      > They have issued a Das Lied von der Erde with Ferrier
                                      > and Patzak conducted by Walter which Andante claim is
                                      > a live performance in Vienna in 1953 at around the
                                      > time of the Decca commercial recording. Andante say
                                      > their tape was provided by Austrian Radio.
                                      >
                                      > This has been the subject of some controversy - in
                                      > Gramophone for example - but, using simultaneous
                                      > playback, the Andante issue is, without any doubt,
                                      > itself the Decca commercial.
                                      >
                                      > But there are other high profile examples of problems
                                      > about the authenticity or dating of live Bruckner
                                      > performances which may be of interest.
                                      >
                                      > Klemperer's uncut 1964 8th for example - is it or
                                      > isn't it him? And which orchestra and which date?
                                      > And which of the versions claiming to be Klemperer is
                                      > the correct one (if any)?

                                      I am convinced the performance of which Simon speaks is authentic Klemperer.
                                      What is lacking is definitive documentation. The true date and venue remain
                                      unknown. It should be ruled out however is that the recording is Klemperer's
                                      1964 Festival Hall performance with the Philharmonia. There is no audience to
                                      be heard (pointing to the tape in question possibly being a BBC studio
                                      performance). Even more telling, there are eyewitness accounts of the 1964 concert
                                      that establish the fact that Klemperer made cuts in the finale on that
                                      occasion, as he did in his 1970 studio recording.

                                      > Kna conducted Bruckner's 9th two or three times within
                                      > the space of a few days in 1950. At leat two of these
                                      > survive and the dates are constantly swapped by
                                      > different sources.

                                      This one should be straightforward. Kna gave two concerts with the BPO in
                                      the Titania Palast on 29-30 January 1950, consisting of Schubert's Unfinished
                                      Symphony and Bruckner 9. A tape of one of these concert performances of the
                                      Bruckner survives, and is currently available from Music & Arts (and possibly
                                      Tahra). Kna also made a recording for broadcast with the same forces of Bruckner
                                      9 on 28 January 1950. There is no audience in this case, but there is the
                                      distinctive sound of an airplane heard over the opening moments. This latter
                                      performance has been issued with various 1950 dates, no doubt because some
                                      confused it with the concert tape - Tahra issued it with the correct date, and that
                                      should settle the manner. We should recall that precise dating of historic
                                      recordings has reached a higher standard of late than that which prevailed in,
                                      say, the 1980s. There is obviously still room for improvement, but at last
                                      people are turning to archives, original programs, and contemporary reviews
                                      rather than just guessing.

                                      > And Eugen Jochum's last performance of the 9th with
                                      > the Munich PO shortly before his death. Is it Jochum?
                                      > The Munich PO says "no" but copies from more than one
                                      > source - none of them with commentary, however - claim
                                      > to be conducted by Jochum.

                                      I too would welcome clarification concerning this one.

                                      Mark
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                                    • Grames, Ronald
                                      A check of the Arkadia and Andante Bruckner 8th s revealed that they are exactly the same performance. There are shared distinctive audience noises and minor
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                        A check of the Arkadia and Andante Bruckner 8th's revealed that they are
                                        exactly the same performance. There are shared distinctive audience
                                        noises and minor instrumental mishaps that make that certain. The
                                        Arkadia recording's timings are each proportionally shorter than the
                                        Andante, with the exception of the last. Here, the Arkadia ends with a
                                        quick cutoff with fake resonance added. Andande includes some of the
                                        applause. The Arkadia sounds slighly higher in pitch, suggesting a
                                        simple speeding up of the tape (this was a 1991 transfer) but I did not
                                        set up a side by side comparison.

                                        In case anyone was interested...

                                        Ron Grames

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                                        Lee Schipper
                                        Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:04 AM
                                        To: furt-l@...
                                        Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th

                                        As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and
                                        again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes. Is the arcadia
                                        on 1 CD or 2? Mine is on 1 cd..and sadly with digital technology it is
                                        possible to speed up without changing pitch......Otherwise, 1 minute in
                                        80 is roughly 1 fifth of a half tone, roughly the difference between A -
                                        440 and = 436. Given the wide differences of opinion over which tuning
                                        standard to use, even one part in 80 is not to be ignored...

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                                      • Manny Nadelman
                                        Concerning pitch: The otherwise excellent EMI issue of the Furtwangler/Flagstad Fidelio from 1950 is
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                          <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>
                                          <P>Concerning pitch: The otherwise excellent EMI issue of the Furtwangler/Flagstad Fidelio from 1950 is pitched about a quarter-tone low (compared to the 1953 studio recording).  Correcting the pitch makes a slight but noticeable change in the timbre of the sound and the intensity of the performance.</P></DIV>
                                          <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----
                                          <DIV></DIV>From: "Grames, Ronald" <RGrames@...>
                                          <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: furt-l@...
                                          <DIV></DIV>To: <furt-l@...>
                                          <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th
                                          <DIV></DIV>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:02:19 -0500
                                          <DIV></DIV>
                                          <DIV></DIV>The Arkadia is on one CD - hence my suspicion.  And since the VPO tunes
                                          <DIV></DIV>high, if the speed was changed without resampling, it would make the
                                          <DIV></DIV>pitch higher still.  I have heard pitch changes that small change the
                                          <DIV></DIV>character of a performance.
                                          <DIV></DIV>
                                          <DIV></DIV>I, unfortunately, do not have the means to check that directly.  I could
                                          <DIV></DIV>capture a section of each and play the consecutively...
                                          <DIV></DIV>
                                          <DIV></DIV>Ron
                                          <DIV></DIV>
                                          <DIV></DIV>-----Original Message-----
                                          <DIV></DIV>From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                                          <DIV></DIV>Lee Schipper
                                          <DIV></DIV>Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:04 AM
                                          <DIV></DIV>To: furt-l@...
                                          <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th
                                          <DIV></DIV>
                                          <DIV></DIV>As I noted, the private CD I have, source BBC broadcast from 1986 and
                                          <DIV></DIV>again 1988, comes in at a few seconds under 80 minutes.  Is the arcadia
                                          <DIV></DIV>on 1 CD or 2? Mine is on 1 cd..and sadly with digital technology it is
                                          <DIV></DIV>possible to speed up without changing pitch......Otherwise, 1 minute in
                                          <DIV></DIV>80 is roughly 1 fifth of a half tone, roughly the difference between A -
                                          <DIV></DIV>440 and  = 436. Given the wide differences of opinion over which tuning
                                          <DIV></DIV>standard to use, even one part in 80 is not to be ignored...
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                                        • Manny Nadelman
                                          On April 24, 1954, Furtwangler was mostly likely in Berlin rehearsing the BPO for its April 27 concert
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                            <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>
                                            <P>On April 24, 1954, Furtwangler was mostly likely in Berlin rehearsing the BPO for its April 27 concert and subsequent tour.</P></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----
                                            <DIV></DIV>From: "Grames, Ronald" <RGrames@...>
                                            <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: furt-l@...
                                            <DIV></DIV>To: <furt-l@...>
                                            <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th
                                            <DIV></DIV>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:08:53 -0500
                                            <DIV></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>Do you know which date - April 10 or April 24? The Andante release is
                                            <DIV></DIV>the first mention of a performance on the 24th that I've seen.  Since
                                            <DIV></DIV>those are taken from Austrian Radio tapes, I assume its authenticity is
                                            <DIV></DIV>verified.  That leaves the April 10th performance, which Hunt's
                                            <DIV></DIV>discography discribes as controversial, with some saying it is actually
                                            <DIV></DIV>Knappertsbusch conducting.
                                            <DIV></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>Is it likely that Furtwangler would have performed the same piece in
                                            <DIV></DIV>concerts with the VPO two weeks apart?
                                            <DIV></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>As for the 1890 version, apparently the folks at Andante didn't see that
                                            <DIV></DIV>article.  This is still advertised as the Nowak edition.  It has been
                                            <DIV></DIV>suggested elsewhere that Furtwangler may have gotten an advanced copy,
                                            <DIV></DIV>but given what I've heard described as a particularly busy period in his
                                            <DIV></DIV>life, it is interesting that he'd take time to learn a new version.
                                            <DIV></DIV>Don't know...
                                            <DIV></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>I guess next thing I need to do is try to compare the performances to
                                            <DIV></DIV>see if the timing differences are because they are different, or because
                                            <DIV></DIV>of pitching errors.
                                            <DIV></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>Other thoughts?
                                            <DIV></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>Thanks.
                                            <DIV></DIV>Ron Grames
                                            <DIV></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>-----Original Message-----
                                            <DIV></DIV>From: nobody@... [mailto:nobody@...] On Behalf Of
                                            <DIV></DIV>Lee Schipper
                                            <DIV></DIV>Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:34 PM
                                            <DIV></DIV>To: furt-l@...; dbarker@...
                                            <DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th
                                            <DIV></DIV>
                                            <DIV></DIV>My recollection is that my tape from 1954 has announcers and is clearly
                                            <DIV></DIV>Austrain radio -- I was convinced this was genuine..
                                            <DIV></DIV>
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                                          • Simon Clark
                                            ... Yes, as issued by Tahra. The program also included Mozart s 40th Symphony, which has been issued on several labels. So the Tahra could well be authetically
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 14, 2004
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                                              --- Manny Nadelman <enadelman@...> wrote:
                                              Yes, as issued by Tahra. The program also included
                                              Mozart's 40th Symphony, which has been issued on
                                              several labels.

                                              So the Tahra could well be authetically live? I don't
                                              have it but will get it now! Thanks, Mr Nadelman!

                                              Simon







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                                            • Manny Nadelman
                                              The Mozart is not part of that Tahra recording but is included in a Tahra set otherwise devoted to a
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Aug 14, 2004
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                                                <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>
                                                <P>The Mozart is not part of that Tahra recording but is included in a Tahra set otherwise devoted to a complete concert from Stockholm including Mozart's 39th Symphony and Schubert's 9th.<BR></P></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----
                                                <DIV></DIV>From: Simon Clark <simonclark99@...>
                                                <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: furt-l@...
                                                <DIV></DIV>To: furt-l@...
                                                <DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [furt-l] 1954 Bruckner 8th (plus Kna, Klemperer and Jochum)
                                                <DIV></DIV>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:45:03 +0100 (BST)
                                                <DIV></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>  --- Manny Nadelman <enadelman@...> wrote:
                                                <DIV></DIV>Yes, as issued by Tahra. The program also included
                                                <DIV></DIV>Mozart's 40th Symphony, which has been issued on
                                                <DIV></DIV>several labels.
                                                <DIV></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>So the Tahra could well be authetically live?  I don't
                                                <DIV></DIV>have it but will get it now!  Thanks, Mr Nadelman!
                                                <DIV></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>Simon
                                                <DIV></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>
                                                <DIV></DIV>
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