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Re: [furt-l] NYT Celi assassination 5/12/01

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  • brixu
    Land of Hope and Glory!! ... * POSTED to furt-l - the Furtwangler Mailing List * Send new posts to furt-l@amulation.com * To unsubscribe, go to http://
    Message 1 of 8 , May 13 10:43 AM
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      Land of Hope and Glory!!

      > De : "neil levenson" <neilgl@...>
      > Répondre à : furt-l@...
      > Date : Sun, 13 May 2001 08:16:24 -0700
      > À : furt-l@...
      > Objet : [furt-l] NYT Celi assassination 5/12/01
      >
      > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/13/arts/13HOLL.html
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    • samir golescu
      I ve also answered this in another Internet context. Be it known I am not member of any Celibidache cult or coterie . There are many and I say *many*
      Message 2 of 8 , May 13 11:59 AM
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        I've also answered this in another Internet context.

        Be it known I am not member of any "Celibidache cult" or "coterie". There
        are many and I say *many* Celibidache recordings I simply cannot stand.
        However, Holland's article is absolutely horrible, a piece of gratuitous
        venom written by an uninformed (at least in this subject) tuppence
        journalist. The insinuation contained in the phrase "His prosperity seems
        not to have suffered under the Nazis during the war years, but let us move
        on from that." is as dirty as the rest of the article. Shame to New York
        Times.

        More details?

        ___________________________
        The packaging of a new boxed set from Deutsche
        Grammophon tells us most of what we need to know:
        "Celibidache" in large letters at the top; "Dvorak,
        Sibelius, Franck, Hindemith, Richard Strauss,
        Shostakovich" in significantly smaller type. At the
        bottom of the box's back cover in three languages: "The
        Celibidache Edition: The Recording Legacy of a Musical
        Genius."

        Clearly this is the trickle-down theory of economics
        transferred to music. Heap riches of attention on the
        conductor's throne, and they will gradually descend on
        composers. Here was a man of enormous gifts
        pretty much destroyed by the monstrousness of his ego.
        ______________________________




        The causality drawn between the DG packaging of a Celibidache
        Edition and
        Celibidache's ego is a sample of slanderous crap. Celibidache
        did not
        conceive, sanction or even imagine a *posthumous* discographic
        edition of
        his recordings, nor did he leave, to my knowledge, a will
        containing
        indications on the size of the letters his name was supposed to
        be on the
        box.




        ______________________________

        Celibidache publicly rejected recorded performances,
        yet his recorded performances are everywhere.[..........]
        ______________________________


        The insinuation that Celibidache was hypocritical in this
        respect is a
        piece of slanderous crap. In my opinion too "Celibidache had an
        enormous ego", but he was also an honest and consistent with himself
        in his utterances great artist (in which utterances, for the record and
        FWIW, I do not believe 100%) on recordings industry and he gave up, for
        decades, tones of money in order to be consistent with his principles. The
        fact that some of his concerts still were recorded was due to the
        impossibility of (even a) Celibidache to legally control 100% what *was
        done by others* with the recordings of his concerts.



        _____________________________
        The conductor, who died in 1996, once
        said that hearing electronically a concert that had
        already happened was like "sleeping with a picture of
        Marilyn Monroe." Yet these events took place with
        full knowledge that they would be transcribed and
        broadcast. It was not the first time that Celibidachian word and
        deed had
        collided.
        ______________________________


        Another piece of slanderous crap. Celibidache repeatedly
        declared how he was compelled, in different phases of his career, to allow
        some of the concerts to be broadcasted as it was a source of income for
        the orchestral musicians and he couldn't always ask from them the same
        sacrifices he was ready to make. Whenever he had control, and he could
        choose between his artistic principles and money, he was consistent with
        himself.


        ______________________________
        Once, a reporter, suspicious of
        Celibidache's laments and regrets over a 1983
        videotaping, went to the program's producers, who made
        clear that the conductor had meticulously and
        enthusiastically cooperated with all the retakes and lighting
        adjustments required.
        ______________________________



        Oy, such a discovery! So that Celibidache lamented in principle
        the commercialization inherent, IH[is]O, in the recordings industry,
        would have been incompatible with his trying, *once he accepted, in
        old age, to "compromise"*, to do as good a job as possible! Another piece
        of slanderous crap.


        _______________________________
        Foremost in the listener's ear is the conductor. Celibidache
        claimed to be
        a servant of the composer's
        intentions, but he acts more like a decision maker
        working from compositorial suggestions.
        ______________________________


        Oh, is that so? Celi "doesn't let the music speak for itself",
        it seems.
        For God's sake, there are Celi performances that do not work to
        my ears at all, but because they do not work, not because the conductor
        "puts himself foremost in the listener's ear"! This is not slanderous, but
        it is a piece of crap nevertheless. Professional crap.


        _______________________________

        Other items include Sibelius's Fifth, Shostakovich's
        Ninth and Bruckner's Third, Fourth and Fifth
        Symphonies, and Strauss's "Till Eugenspiegel" and "Don
        Juan." Celibidache's range, perhaps like that of
        his coterie of devotees, is not wide. When listeners
        know the notes by heart, it frees them to concentrate on
        crucial matters --- like conducting.
        ______________________________



        I start thinking that NOT the different "coteries" -- be them of
        Celibidache, Furtwangler, Toscanini, or whomever else -- are to
        be deplored, but the critics obsessed with them should seek
        specialized help.



        ______________________________
        The present version of Dvorak's B minor
        Cello Concerto raises such questions. Jacqueline du Pre
        plays the solos with heart- stopping intensity and
        clean musical values, but add in Celibidache's
        oppressiveness, and what we hear is Dvorak's songful,
        lyrical, altogether lovely concerto crushed under the
        weight of its interpreters. Musicians who truly love
        music get out of its way.
        _____________________________



        Another piece of slanderous crap. "Musicians who truly love
        music"????? NYT decides on that too, now?

        IMO it is a wonderful recording but I am probably not licensed by mr
        Holland to "truly love" music.

        _____________________________

        Mr. Celibidache had a lifetime contract as music
        director of the Munich Philharmonic, and his work as an
        orchestra builder is recorded there in the near
        shambles he left behind for his successor, James Levine.
        _____________________________



        Do you agree with this piece of slanderous crap? Regardless of
        one's opinion on Celibidache's ego or his tempos, do you really think
        his outstanding work as an orchestra builder can be minimized? Did
        MunichPO ever sound better, purely as an orchestra, even with such
        remarkable conductors like Kempe or Kabasta? I don't think so.

        Please, do dislike Celibidache's recordings all you like. As I
        said, I came to think the man had an authentic, unique talent, took
        risks, and left recordings that range from sublime (most of his Bruckner
        especially, but not only) to (to my poor ears) ridiculous, *in terms of
        interpretive choices*. But I cannot stand insinuations that he was an
        incompetent bore, able only to talk, and that "American orchestras
        [should] beware", as His Mediocrity and Stupidity Mr Holland puts it
        (beware of what?? where are the legions of dangerous young Celibidaches
        threatening the "health" of the American concert life, pray???). James
        Levine, Holland's ideal of a conductor as it seems, did not make, in his
        best recordings, an infinitesimal fraction of the music Celibidache made,
        in his best recordings.

        So, Mr Holland, if anybody is forwarding this to you, please, please have
        the courtesy to go behind the bushes and double-fugue yourself until your
        mind comes back where it belongs.

        regards,

        SG





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      • neil levenson
        Does anyone know what s wrong with Holland s Marilyn Monroe reference? ... * POSTED to furt-l - the Furtwangler Mailing List * Send new posts to
        Message 3 of 8 , May 15 12:24 AM
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          Does anyone know what's wrong with Holland's Marilyn Monroe reference?

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        • Peter Quantrill
          But of course. Wrong girl. It was a picture of Brigitte Bardot Celi didn;t want to get into bed with. I invite speculation regarding the possible concomitant
          Message 4 of 8 , May 15 1:32 AM
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            But of course. Wrong girl. It was a picture of Brigitte Bardot Celi didn;t
            want to get into bed with. I invite speculation regarding the possible
            concomitant that Celi would have been jolly keen to get into bed with 'the
            real thing', as it were.


            Peter Quantrill

            >From: "neil levenson" <neilgl@...>
            >To: furt-l@...
            >Subject: [furt-l] NYT Celi assassination 5/12/01
            >Date: Tue, May 15, 2001, 8:24 am
            >

            >Does anyone know what's wrong with Holland's Marilyn Monroe reference?
            >
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          • neil levenson
            I hope Mr. Levine - and the Munich Philharmonic - respond to the NYT & that the paper runs their clarifications, along with an intelligent letter from a
            Message 5 of 8 , May 15 7:33 AM
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              I hope Mr. Levine - and the Munich Philharmonic - respond to the NYT &
              that the paper runs their clarifications, along with an intelligent letter
              from a reader or group of readers.

              The paper's inclination may be to save face - by running one milquetoast,
              watered-down response, thus being able to say they ran a contrary view. Or
              better yet, simply an item in the "Corrections" column randomly clarifying
              only one or two of Holland's obvious mischaracterizations. I hope I'm
              wrong.

              Neil Levenson
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            • neil levenson
              I hope the Times runs responses from Mr. Levine, the Munich Philharmonic - and from a reader or group of readers. I expect the paper to save face by
              Message 6 of 8 , May 15 7:55 AM
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                I hope the Times runs responses from Mr. Levine, the Munich Philharmonic -
                and from a reader or group of readers.

                I expect the paper to save face by publishing a milquetoast letter, or
                better yet for face-saving, a "Corrections" item clarifying just one or
                maybe two of Holland's mischaracterizations.
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