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[furt-l] Reminder

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  • David Sobelsohn
    When sending a message to the list, please don t attach the entire post to which you re replying. Attach only those portions absolutely necessary to
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 6, 1973
      When sending a message to the list, please don't attach the entire post to
      which you're replying. Attach only those portions absolutely necessary to
      understand your own message. Otherwise your message ends up so long that
      some readers won't bother either reading it or downloading it.
      Unnecessarily repeating old messages, by increasing the time required to
      get anything new out of the list, may ultimately even cause some
      subscribers to unsubscribe.

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    • Neil
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      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 27, 2001
        On Tue, 6 Feb 1973 14:08:14 -0500 (EST), you wrote:

        >From: David Sobelsohn <dsobelso@...>
        >Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1973 14:08:14 -0500 (EST)


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      • Fred Maroth
        Neil: something is wrong; I received only what you see below; lately sometimes messages are cut off; has only been happening recently...Rgds, Fred Maroth ... *
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 28, 2001
          Neil: something is wrong; I received only what you see below; lately
          sometimes messages are cut off; has only been happening recently...Rgds,
          Fred Maroth

          > From: Neil <neil@...>
          > Organization: messy
          > Reply-To: furt-l@...
          > Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:29:22 +0000
          > To: furt-l@...
          > Subject: [furt-l] Date setting on PC
          >
          > On Tue, 6 Feb 1973 14:08:14 -0500 (EST), you wrote:
          >
          >> From: David Sobelsohn <dsobelso@...>
          >> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1973 14:08:14 -0500 (EST)
          >
          >
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          >

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        • Kevin P. Mostyn
          Fred, That was all that was said. He was pointing out the wrong date. Kevin ... From: owner-furt-l@amulation.com [mailto:owner-furt-l@amulation.com]On Behalf
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 28, 2001
            Fred,

            That was all that was said. He was pointing out the wrong date.

            Kevin

            -----Original Message-----
            From: owner-furt-l@... [mailto:owner-furt-l@...]On
            Behalf Of Fred Maroth
            Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 4:39 PM
            To: furt-l@...
            Subject: Re: [furt-l] Date setting on PC


            Neil: something is wrong; I received only what you see below; lately
            sometimes messages are cut off; has only been happening recently...Rgds,
            Fred Maroth

            > From: Neil <neil@...>
            > Organization: messy
            > Reply-To: furt-l@...
            > Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:29:22 +0000
            > To: furt-l@...
            > Subject: [furt-l] Date setting on PC
            >
            > On Tue, 6 Feb 1973 14:08:14 -0500 (EST), you wrote:
            >
            >> From: David Sobelsohn <dsobelso@...>
            >> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1973 14:08:14 -0500 (EST)

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          • Wong
            Hi All: I get two questions to ask. First, I have over 10 LPs with famous past pianists playing on piano rolls - specifically, on the Duo-Art player piano,
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 28, 2001
              Hi All:

              I get two questions to ask.

              First, I have over 10 LPs with famous past pianists playing on piano rolls
              - specifically, on the Duo-Art player piano, from 1916 through 1925. These
              are the Everest "Archive of piano music" LPs, "X-nnn" series.

              How good are the sounds compared to actual recordings with all the
              scratches etc? Would you prefer listening to the actual recordings to the
              player piano renditions? Are the player piano renditions "authentic"?


              Second, I have in particular the LP X-903, with Josef Hofmann playing
              Beethoven piano pieces, including "Moonlight". Hofmann was a contemporary
              of Paderewski and Schnabel, and one of the greatest pianists of the early
              20th century. However, even after listening to his playing "Moonlight"
              more than 20 times, I still find his playing unsatisfactory and
              perfunctory. His playing of the second movement strikes me as almost
              "emotionless". Am I wrong?



              Would appreciate opinions from you all.



              Thanks!



              Regards,

              Wong


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            • Gil Zilkha
              His playing of the second movement strikes me as almost ... I would also add Hofmann s Kreisleriana (from the Casimir Hall recital, available on Marston) as
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 28, 2001
                His playing of the second movement strikes me as almost
                > > "emotionless". Am I wrong?
                >
                >Not if that's how it strikes you. For me Hofmann is heard at his best
                >in his recordings of Chopin.

                I would also add Hofmann's Kreisleriana (from the Casimir Hall recital,
                available on Marston) as essential Hofmann listening.

                As to the Moonlight, could the fact that it is a piano roll add to the
                "emotionless" effect you speak of? I have never been able to enjoy piano
                roll recordings, no matter how great the pianist.
                _________________________________________________________________
                Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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              • Kalle Kuusava
                ... I don t think that Hofmann and Moonlight suited so well together. Kreisleriana is indeed great, and so is his recording of the 4th Ballade by Chopin. For
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 1, 2001
                  At 23:02 28.2.2001 -0600, you wrote:
                  >His playing of the second movement strikes me as almost
                  >> > "emotionless". Am I wrong?
                  >>
                  >>Not if that's how it strikes you. For me Hofmann is heard at his best
                  >>in his recordings of Chopin.
                  >
                  >I would also add Hofmann's Kreisleriana (from the Casimir Hall recital,
                  >available on Marston) as essential Hofmann listening.
                  >
                  >As to the Moonlight, could the fact that it is a piano roll add to the
                  >"emotionless" effect you speak of? I have never been able to enjoy piano
                  >roll recordings, no matter how great the pianist.

                  I don't think that Hofmann and Moonlight suited so well together.
                  Kreisleriana is indeed great, and so is his recording of the 4th Ballade by
                  Chopin. For great Moonlight, go for Gilels' Carnegie Hall recital '69.
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                • Deryk Barker
                  ... In a word - to a limited extent. (Oh, alrioght, that s 4 words). Yes I d rather listen to 78s. For a fuller expatiation see my review of the two
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 1, 2001
                    Thus spake Wong (whs@...):

                    > Hi All:
                    >
                    > I get two questions to ask.
                    >
                    > First, I have over 10 LPs with famous past pianists playing on piano rolls
                    > - specifically, on the Duo-Art player piano, from 1916 through 1925. These
                    > are the Everest "Archive of piano music" LPs, "X-nnn" series.
                    >
                    > How good are the sounds compared to actual recordings with all the
                    > scratches etc? Would you prefer listening to the actual recordings to the
                    > player piano renditions? Are the player piano renditions
                    > "authentic"?

                    In a word - to a limited extent. (Oh, alrioght, that's 4 words). Yes
                    I'd rather listen to 78s. For a fuller expatiation see my review of
                    the two Rachmaninoff "A Window in Time" releases of a year or two
                    back. You can find the review at

                    www.soundstage.com/music/reviews/rev135.htm

                    >
                    >
                    > Second, I have in particular the LP X-903, with Josef Hofmann playing
                    > Beethoven piano pieces, including "Moonlight". Hofmann was a contemporary
                    > of Paderewski and Schnabel, and one of the greatest pianists of the early
                    > 20th century. However, even after listening to his playing "Moonlight"
                    > more than 20 times, I still find his playing unsatisfactory and
                    > perfunctory. His playing of the second movement strikes me as almost
                    > "emotionless". Am I wrong?

                    Not if that's how it strikes you. For me Hofmann is heard at his best
                    in his recordings of Chopin.

                    --
                    |Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
                    |Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
                    |email: dbarker@... | |
                    |phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |

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                  • samir golescu
                    Piano rolls are both a very precious and a very frustrating recording device. Precious: how would we know today how did Carenno, or Reisenauer phrase, if not
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 1, 2001
                      Piano rolls are both a very precious and a very frustrating "recording"
                      device. Precious: how would we know today how did Carenno, or Reisenauer
                      phrase, if not for their rolls? Frustrating: there is so much depending
                      upon the piano used to "read" the rolls, the system of rolls (Ampico or
                      Welte or....), and the person who "reads" the rolls, that, from the very
                      same roll, you can get musically very different results. In my
                      experience, among the best "rolls readings" (best as in what I perceived
                      as closest to real piano playing) are... the old Russian LPs. Busoni's
                      rolls sound there much better (i.e., more realistic) than in five or six
                      alternatives, be them the Italian Fone efforts, the Nimbus readings, the
                      old Everest LPs etc. etc. etc.

                      Hofmann is THE great pianist whose rolld sound THE LEAST comparable to
                      his real recordings (due, I suspect, to subtleties of pedalling and touch
                      that no roll can "record"). Rachmaninov's or Lhevinne's rolls don't sound
                      that bad.

                      Get Hofmann's DISC recordings--only there you will hear his playing.

                      regards,
                      SG



                      _______________

                      "In fact, any man who opens his window, trying to see beyond the horizon,
                      is a Romantic. As for those who think that giving the expression of a
                      work its full amplitude amounts to romanticize it, they are sitting on
                      chairs behind opaque windows." (Pierre Vidal, organist)


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                    • samir golescu
                      ... Of course it does! That Moonlight roll has little to do with Hofmann s playing. Thank God, we can hear today an entire live performance of Hofmann, as well
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 1, 2001
                        On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Gil Zilkha wrote:

                        > As to the Moonlight, could the fact that it is a piano roll add to the
                        > "emotionless" effect you speak of?

                        Of course it does! That Moonlight roll has little to do with Hofmann's
                        playing. Thank God, we can hear today an entire live performance of
                        Hofmann, as well as a couple of different "78" recordings of the first
                        movement, from the early, more classically poised Columbias, to a late
                        live recording, absolutely superb in its daring voicings, with a sound in
                        the upper voice that has to be heard to be (dis)believed.

                        regards,
                        SG

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                      • samir golescu
                        ... Anyway, that wrong date is the most memorable contribution of the esteemed Mr. Sobelsohn to date.... ... * POSTED to furt-l - the Furtwangler Mailing List
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 1, 2001
                          On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Kevin P. Mostyn wrote:

                          > That was all that was said. He was pointing out the wrong date.
                          >
                          > > From: Neil <neil@...>
                          > >
                          > > On Tue, 6 Feb 1973 14:08:14 -0500 (EST), you wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> From: David Sobelsohn <dsobelso@...>
                          > >> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1973 14:08:14 -0500 (EST)

                          Anyway, that wrong date is the most memorable contribution of the esteemed
                          Mr. Sobelsohn to date....



                          (-:

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                        • Wong
                          Thanks, Deryk, Gil, Kalle and Samir, for your helpful comments on piano rolls and Hofmann. I always thought the piano rolls recordings were true
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 3, 2001
                            Thanks, Deryk, Gil, Kalle and Samir, for your helpful comments on piano
                            rolls and Hofmann.

                            I always thought the piano rolls recordings were true representations of
                            the pianists' renditions. Now I know I'm wrong.


                            Regards,

                            Wong


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                          • samir golescu
                            ... You are most welcome, of course. ... Sorry to deliver this disappointment.... )-: I have a book which contains a list of (almost) all piano rolls made in
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 3, 2001
                              On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Wong wrote:

                              > Thanks, Deryk, Gil, Kalle and Samir, for your helpful comments on piano
                              > rolls and Hofmann.

                              You are most welcome, of course.

                              > I always thought the piano rolls recordings were true representations of
                              > the pianists' renditions. Now I know I'm wrong.

                              Sorry to deliver this disappointment.... )-: I have a book which contains
                              a list of (almost) all piano rolls made in the first three decades of the
                              century.... there are many great pianists who didn't make it to disc....
                              then, for Busoni (who recorded half an hour or so worth of discs), there
                              is an entire library of rolls, including Beethoven's opus 111, all Chopin
                              Ballades (never made it to LP or CD, AFAIK), the Preludes etc....

                              Rolls are still not to be completely dismissed. In ideal conditions they
                              can render *part* of the pianist's artistry....

                              regards,
                              SG

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                            • Conscience
                              Fasil Say has said in a recent interview that he has recorded himself on piano rolls to play in concert his own arrangement of Le Sacre du printemps for
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 3, 2001
                                Fasil Say has said in a recent interview that he has recorded himself on
                                piano rolls to play in concert his own arrangement of "Le Sacre du
                                printemps" for "four hands" and that he really found his own playing with
                                all the characteristics of his style when listening to the result. He even
                                thinks that he could make better recordings with this technic because the
                                moment he plays the best the slow movement of the italian concerto is at 2
                                A.M!

                                Sébastien Conscience
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: samir golescu <golescu@...>
                                To: <furt-l@...>
                                Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:20 PM
                                Subject: Re: [furt-l] piano rolls; J. Hofmann


                                > On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Wong wrote:
                                >
                                > > Thanks, Deryk, Gil, Kalle and Samir, for your helpful comments on piano
                                > > rolls and Hofmann.
                                >
                                > You are most welcome, of course.
                                >
                                > > I always thought the piano rolls recordings were true representations of
                                > > the pianists' renditions. Now I know I'm wrong.
                                >
                                > Sorry to deliver this disappointment.... )-: I have a book which contains
                                > a list of (almost) all piano rolls made in the first three decades of the
                                > century.... there are many great pianists who didn't make it to disc....
                                > then, for Busoni (who recorded half an hour or so worth of discs), there
                                > is an entire library of rolls, including Beethoven's opus 111, all Chopin
                                > Ballades (never made it to LP or CD, AFAIK), the Preludes etc....
                                >
                                > Rolls are still not to be completely dismissed. In ideal conditions they
                                > can render *part* of the pianist's artistry....
                                >
                                > regards,
                                > SG
                                >
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                                >

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                              • David Harbin
                                Dear All, Can anyone tell me more about the 1947 live Berlin Tristan. I have heard that only excerpts survive. Which? Is there any chance that the whole
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 4, 2001
                                  Dear All,

                                  Can anyone tell me more about the 1947 live Berlin
                                  Tristan. I have heard that only excerpts survive.
                                  Which? Is there any chance that the whole thing may
                                  exists somewhere? I have heard bits and was
                                  impressed. Schluter was an impassioned although not
                                  always secure isolde. Sauthus has a warm manly tone.


                                  Furtwangler strikes me as better than in the 1952
                                  studio recording. There is a searing quality to the
                                  strings and what I heard sounded more energised. How
                                  did John Ardonin say it compared to the studio
                                  performance?

                                  What label is it on?

                                  Finally, can anyone recommend a CD with Lieder
                                  singing Tristan und Isolde? Is it the version in the
                                  1930s with Barbirolli which is the one to go for?

                                  Thanks,

                                  David Harbin
                                  Nottingham, UK

                                  __________________________________________________
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                                • Kalle Kuusava
                                  ... You re welcome. It s interesting to compare the Rachmaninov s piano rolls, which are released both by Decca and Telarc. Decca s release is incredibly bad.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 5, 2001
                                    At 14:13 3.3.2001 -0500, you wrote:
                                    >Thanks, Deryk, Gil, Kalle and Samir, for your helpful comments on piano
                                    >rolls and Hofmann.
                                    >
                                    >I always thought the piano rolls recordings were true representations of
                                    >the pianists' renditions. Now I know I'm wrong.
                                    >
                                    You're welcome. It's interesting to compare the Rachmaninov's piano rolls,
                                    which are released both by Decca and Telarc. Decca's release is incredibly
                                    bad. It sounds like Rachmaninov was completely unmusical! However, Telarc
                                    has wonderful dynamic differences, excitement etc. But the best way to get
                                    to know the art of the pianist is through real recordings. I'm against the
                                    whole piano roll technology.
                                    I just bought a video, "the art of singing". It's in the same serie as
                                    "art of conducting" and "art of piano". It has great moments - Fjodor
                                    Saljapin, Lauritz Melchior, Fritz Wunderlich, Flagstad, Björling.. But it
                                    doesn't have so much humor as piano and conducting videos. But I think it
                                    was worth buying.
                                    OK.. Now to driving school, so I can get my license fast.. VROOOOM!!!

                                    Regards,
                                    Kalle
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                                  • Eric Kisch
                                    Kalle - stay off the VROOOOM!!! and you and your driving licence will last a lot longer. So much to enjoy musically and so little time! Ponder. Best, Eric
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 5, 2001
                                      Kalle - stay off the "VROOOOM!!!" and you and your driving licence will
                                      last a lot longer. So much to enjoy musically and so little time!
                                      Ponder.

                                      Best,

                                      Eric

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                                    • samir golescu
                                      ... Then Telarc used a technological break-through to read the old rolls. I wished they did that with pianists who left less 78 recordings than Rachmaninov.
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 5, 2001
                                        On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Kalle Kuusava wrote:

                                        > It's interesting to compare the Rachmaninov's piano rolls,
                                        > which are released both by Decca and Telarc. Decca's release is incredibly
                                        > bad. It sounds like Rachmaninov was completely unmusical! However, Telarc
                                        > has wonderful dynamic differences, excitement etc.

                                        Then Telarc used a technological break-through to "read" the old rolls. I
                                        wished they did that with pianists who left less 78 recordings than
                                        Rachmaninov.

                                        > But the best way to get to know the art of the pianist is through real
                                        > recordings.

                                        Indeed,

                                        > I just bought a video, "the art of singing". It's in the same serie as
                                        > "art of conducting" and "art of piano". It has great moments - Fjodor
                                        > Saljapin, Lauritz Melchior, Fritz Wunderlich, Flagstad, Björling.. But it
                                        > doesn't have so much humor as piano and conducting videos. But I think it
                                        > was worth buying.

                                        Yes--the moment with Tauber accompanying himself in Schubert's Serenade
                                        (different footage from the Schubert movie) is priceless.

                                        > OK.. Now to driving school, so I can get my license fast.. VROOOOM!!!

                                        Just don't sing "Ho-yo-to-ho" wile driving.... (-:

                                        regards,
                                        SG

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                                      • Deryk Barker
                                        ... Indeed. As my review pointed out, there are a number of works duplicated between 78 and rolls and in every case (including the acoustics) I prefer the 78s.
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 6, 2001
                                          Thus spake samir golescu (golescu@...):

                                          > On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Kalle Kuusava wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > It's interesting to compare the Rachmaninov's piano rolls,
                                          > > which are released both by Decca and Telarc. Decca's release is incredibly
                                          > > bad. It sounds like Rachmaninov was completely unmusical! However, Telarc
                                          > > has wonderful dynamic differences, excitement etc.
                                          >
                                          > Then Telarc used a technological break-through to "read" the old rolls. I
                                          > wished they did that with pianists who left less 78 recordings than
                                          > Rachmaninov.

                                          Indeed. As my review pointed out, there are a number of works
                                          duplicated between 78 and rolls and in every case (including the
                                          acoustics) I prefer the 78s. And I cannot believe that Rachmaninoff's
                                          left hand forte was the ugly sound heard on these CDs.

                                          --
                                          |Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
                                          |Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
                                          |email: dbarker@... | |
                                          |phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |

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