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Re: [furt-l] Pirated 1950 WF RING

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  • jason and jill
    ... The BBC is funded by a head tax on owners of receiving equipment...at least that s what I got out of it the last time Tony described the system. I m
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 1, 1998
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      > >
      > >The BBC takes no advertising at all. Never has in over 70 years.
      > >
      > Isn't The BBC entirely government funded?

      The BBC is funded by a head tax on owners of receiving equipment...at
      least that's what I got out of it the last time Tony described the system.

      I'm conflicted over which is the better system: a broadcast system funded
      by money collected at the threat of imprisonment (and real money, not
      the 5 or 15 cents per person that PBS gets) and censored and beholden
      to the government, of a broadcast system funded by voluntary placement of
      advertising dollars, and thus beholden to those dollars, while still
      licensed under government threat (although the U.S. media is more
      frequently happily fooled by the U.S. government, particularly the media,
      than threatened). Both have their problems; the idea of being put in jail
      for not paying my TV tax sounds like something from Max Headroom. But,
      then, so does the idea of having a network (ABC) produce a night of
      programming which is presented as regular programming but actually is a
      night of promotion for a movie released by the network's corporate master
      (Disney, with whatever asteriod/meteor movie they released.)

      Jason

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    • Deryk Barker
      Thus spake Boyd Cathey (bcathey@ncsl.dcr.state.nc.us): [...] ... Now here you strike a nerve. I understand that the M&A Horenstein Mahler 7, Das Lied and
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 1, 1998
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        Thus spake Boyd Cathey (bcathey@...):
        [...]
        > 1937 CG WF RING excerpts, the Klemperer and Horenstein Bruckner CDS,

        Now here you strike a nerve. I understand that the M&A Horenstein
        Mahler 7, Das Lied and Bruckner 5 are in fact copies of the Descant
        discs.
        --
        |Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
        |Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
        |email: dbarker@... | |
        |phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |

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      • jason and jill
        ... Not a topic for this list, but PBS is pretty useless nowadays as a TV network. About the only thing I ve watched on PBS since childhood have been...BBC
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 1, 1998
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          > Having experienced both I am in no doubt whatsoever. And PBS is no
          > substititute. They have advertisers too, only they call them
          > sponsors. But they will pull material which shows their sponsors in a
          > particularly bad light, there have been well-documented cases of this.

          Not a topic for this list, but PBS is pretty useless nowadays as a TV
          "network."

          About the only thing I've watched on PBS since childhood have been...BBC
          imports.

          Jason

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        • Deryk Barker
          ... Moi aussi. A point somebody once made about bootleg recordings (in the rock world - I admit to owning bootleg CDs and LPs by, inter alia, Bob Dylan, the
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 1, 1998
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            Thus spake lee schipper (ljsocd@...):

            > I have followed this discussion with a great deal of interest, both as a
            > collector,as a broadcaster (I did 45 Furtwaengler programs at KPFA in Berkeley
            > in thge early 1970s and a half dozen at Radio Sweden as well), as a close friend
            > of Frau F., and as a friend of Fred Maroth. I've had pirate records in my
            > collection (both jazz and classical) for years.

            Moi aussi. A point somebody once made about bootleg recordings (in the
            rock world - I admit to owning bootleg CDs and LPs by, inter alia, Bob
            Dylan, the Grateful Dead and Bruce Springsteen) is taht the people who
            buy them tend to be the real collectors, who already own most or all
            of the *official* recordings.

            So the record companies aren't losing money, although the artists are
            losing royalties. How odd that the companies should be so
            altruistic...:-)
            --
            |Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
            |Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
            |email: dbarker@... | |
            |phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |

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          • Deryk Barker
            ... Except that (unless things have changed in the 10 years I ve been gone) there is no longer - hasn t been since the late 60s IIRC - a licence fee for radios
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 1, 1998
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              Thus spake jason and jill (jgreshes@...):

              > > >
              > > >The BBC takes no advertising at all. Never has in over 70 years.
              > > >
              > > Isn't The BBC entirely government funded?
              >
              > The BBC is funded by a head tax on owners of receiving equipment...at
              > least that's what I got out of it the last time Tony described the
              > > >system.

              Except that (unless things have changed in the 10 years I've been
              gone) there is no longer - hasn't been since the late 60s IIRC - a
              licence fee for radios only TVs. (This wasn't always the case).

              > I'm conflicted over which is the better system: a broadcast system funded
              > by money collected at the threat of imprisonment (and real money,
              > not

              Well, fines first I think.

              > the 5 or 15 cents per person that PBS gets) and censored and beholden
              > to the government,

              In theory it is neither: the BBC Charter ensures that the government
              keeps at arm's length.

              Interestingly enough, the government of the day, whatever their
              political stripe, always seems to complain that the BBC is biased in
              favour of their opponents.

              > of a broadcast system funded by voluntary placement of
              > advertising dollars, and thus beholden to those dollars, while still
              > licensed under government threat (although the U.S. media is more
              > frequently happily fooled by the U.S. government, particularly the media,
              > than threatened). Both have their problems; the idea of being put in jail
              > for not paying my TV tax sounds like something from Max Headroom. But,
              > then, so does the idea of having a network (ABC) produce a night of
              > programming which is presented as regular programming but actually is a
              > night of promotion for a movie released by the network's corporate master
              > (Disney, with whatever asteriod/meteor movie they released.)

              Having experienced both I am in no doubt whatsoever. And PBS is no
              substititute. They have advertisers too, only they call them
              sponsors. But they will pull material which shows their sponsors in a
              particularly bad light, there have been well-documented cases of this.

              They also bend over backwards in favour of the status quo in the
              interest of "balance", hence the virtual (or even complete)
              invisibility of Noam Chomsky on PBS.

              My final beef is that, certainly the Seattle PBS station only
              remembers its 40% or so of Canadian viewers when pledge time comes
              along...

              --
              |Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
              |Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
              |email: dbarker@... | |
              |phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |

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            • Trader
              Are they copies or from the same source or....? Why do you suggest the M&A Horenstein Mahler 7, Das Lied and Bruckner 5 are in fact copies of the Descant
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 1, 1998
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                Are they copies or from the same source or....? Why do you suggest the M&A
                Horenstein Mahler 7, Das Lied and Bruckner 5 are in fact copies of the
                Descant discs? What is your source?

                regards,

                Tom Davenport
                webmaster, M&A
                http://www.musicandarts.com


                At 07:30 PM 9/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
                >Thus spake Boyd Cathey (bcathey@...):
                >[...]
                >> 1937 CG WF RING excerpts, the Klemperer and Horenstein Bruckner CDS,
                >
                >Now here you strike a nerve. I understand that the M&A Horenstein
                >Mahler 7, Das Lied and Bruckner 5 are in fact copies of the Descant
                >discs.
                >--
                >|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
                >|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
                >|email: dbarker@... | |
                >|phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |

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              • Michael Weston & Rae Rushford
                The person who did the masters on the Descant disks posted to the newsgroups and stated that he had added a digital signature in a particular spot on all
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 1, 1998
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                  The person who did the masters on the Descant disks posted to the
                  newsgroups and stated that he had added a digital "signature" in a
                  particular spot on all three that was unrecognizable to ordinary hearing,
                  but that could be detected with the appropriate equipment.

                  The "signature," which he alone had added to the Descants, showed up on the
                  M&A disks.

                  This is how I remember it. Clever, eh?

                  michael

                  >Are they copies or from the same source or....? Why do you suggest the M&A
                  >Horenstein Mahler 7, Das Lied and Bruckner 5 are in fact copies of the
                  >Descant discs? What is your source?
                  >
                  >regards,
                  >
                  >Tom Davenport
                  >webmaster, M&A
                  >http://www.musicandarts.com


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                • Trader
                  Michael, Thanks for your post answering my question re: same source or copy ; very informative indeed, however it remains to be seen whether this is actually
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 2, 1998
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                    Michael,

                    Thanks for your post answering my question re: "same source or copy"; very
                    informative indeed, however it remains to be seen whether this is actually
                    a true allegation or not.... Personally, I do not know.

                    I think you will agree there are definitely some personal rivalries (sp?)
                    which have been exposed in the piracy discussion. At times this has gotten
                    well outside the realms of good taste in modes of expression and there are
                    distinct possibilities that some of what has been written is not factually
                    accurate. In other words, some may be telling stories which are simply not
                    true. Will we ever know what _really_ happened?

                    So I propose a grain of salt to go with some of these provocative
                    allegations. And thanks for putting an actual source on this one.

                    regards,

                    Tom Davenport
                    webmaster, M&A
                    http://www.musicandarts.com


                    At 10:06 PM 9/1/98 -0700,Michael Weson wrote:
                    >The person who did the masters on the Descant disks posted to the
                    >newsgroups and stated that he had added a digital "signature" in a
                    >particular spot on all three that was unrecognizable to ordinary hearing,
                    >but that could be detected with the appropriate equipment.
                    >
                    >The "signature," which he alone had added to the Descants, showed up on the
                    >M&A disks.
                    >
                    >This is how I remember it. Clever, eh?

                    Yes, clever and proveable if true.

                    Tom had asked:

                    >>Are they copies or from the same source or....? Why do you suggest the M&A
                    >>Horenstein Mahler 7, Das Lied and Bruckner 5 are in fact copies of the
                    >>Descant discs? What is your source?

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                  • Tony Duggan
                    ... That s it. Currently 98 UK pounds (around 150 US Dollars) per year. (Reduced if you are blind, also if you own a black and white set.) As Deryk Barker
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 2, 1998
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                      jason and jill wrote:
                      >
                      > > >
                      > > >The BBC takes no advertising at all. Never has in over 70 years.
                      > > >
                      > > Isn't The BBC entirely government funded?
                      >
                      > The BBC is funded by a head tax on owners of receiving equipment...at
                      > least that's what I got out of it the last time Tony described the system.

                      That's it. Currently 98 UK pounds (around 150 US Dollars) per year.
                      (Reduced if you are blind, also if you own a black and white set.)
                      As Deryk Barker mentions in the thread, there is now no longer a
                      radio only licence. There was once, but it was costing more to
                      collect so they did away with it. If you don't pay there is a
                      large fine (up to a thousand pounds) which, if you don't pay that,
                      you can end up in prison. So you don't go to prison for not
                      having a licence, but you might go to prison for not paying
                      the fine for not having a licence ! A number do every year.
                      The system works. It is now very very hard to slip through
                      the system. Even if you own a TV set and only watch videos
                      which you have bought you still pay. There is a huge department
                      in Bristol that enforces it. They send out detector vans.
                      They trawl through the electoral register and if they find
                      an address for which there is no licence recorded they
                      write to the "Occupier", ask why they haven't a licence
                      and get them to sign a form saying they do not own a TV set
                      and THEN they send in the detector van to check.

                      --
                      Tony Duggan

                      Staffordshire,
                      United Kingdom.


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                    • Tony Duggan
                      ... The engineer who was responsible for the original Descant discs placed a digital signature on them and he has found that digital signature on the Music and
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 2, 1998
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                        Trader wrote:
                        > >
                        > >Now here you strike a nerve. I understand that the M&A Horenstein
                        > >Mahler 7, Das Lied and Bruckner 5 are in fact copies of the Descant
                        > >discs.
                        > >--
                        > Are they copies or from the same source or....? Why do you suggest the M&A
                        > Horenstein Mahler 7, Das Lied and Bruckner 5 are in fact copies of the
                        > Descant discs? What is your source?

                        The engineer who was responsible for the original Descant discs placed a
                        digital signature on them and he has found that digital signature on the
                        Music and Arts releases and also on the Intaglios.


                        --
                        Tony Duggan

                        Staffordshire,
                        United Kingdom.

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                      • jay kauffman
                        ... Is is true that the Opera Doro is a direct dub of the Music and Arts release - if so it would be hugh savings! I have the Hunt already but is it worth
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 2, 1998
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                          Trader wrote:
                          >
                          > The topic of the legitimately released M&A La Scala Ring, which was
                          > _directly copied_ and released by OPERA d'ORO (certainly a suggestive label
                          > name choice) has devolved in many interesting directions, including:
                          >
                          > Tony Duggan wrote,
                          > >
                          > >The BBC takes no advertising at all. Never has in over 70 years.
                          > >
                          > Isn't The BBC entirely government funded?
                          >
                          > Tom Davenport
                          > webmaster, M&A
                          > http://www.musicandarts.com
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                          Is is true that the Opera Doro is a direct dub of the Music and Arts
                          release - if so it would be hugh savings! I have the Hunt already but is
                          it worth getting the Opera Doro as well? Randy
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