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Re: RED camera package recommendations?

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  • Videometry
    ..and with the money you save on lenses, you could buy an extra camera for 3D Stereo :) -- Peter Strømberg Skovvej 11 8382 Hinnerup DENMARK mobil: (+45) 60
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 27, 2012
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      ..and with the money you save on lenses, you could buy an extra camera
      for 3D Stereo :)



      --
      Peter Strømberg
      Skovvej 11
      8382 Hinnerup
      DENMARK

      mobil: (+45) 60 44 08 80

      On Dec 27, 2012 19:16 "Videometry" <ps@...> wrote:

      I can't say I've had the budget to try them, but I would recommend you
      check out the new Sony cameras before investing. Not only can you save
      money, the workflow is potentially (not having tried it) more
      streamlined.
      http://www.gizmag.com/sony-f5-f55-cameras/25161/

      Cheers1



      --
      Peter Str�mberg
      Skovvej 11
      8382 Hinnerup
      DENMARK

      mobil: (+45) 60 44 08 80

      On Dec 26, 2012 19:18 "fortcollinsmuseum" <tburton@...> wrote:

      We are interested in spec'ing a RED camera package that would allow us
      to work with live video in our 4.3K dome theater. There are a
      bewildering variety of options and components! Can anyone recommend or
      share what they've put together, and how it's worked for them? Thanks!
      Terry
    • Tom Casey
      The RED One we ve used, we have been sharing with another video production company nearby. They shoot commercials and had their priorities as to what they
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 27, 2012
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        The RED One we've used, we have been sharing with another video production company nearby. They shoot commercials and had their priorities as to what they needed for that kind of work and we basically use the setup they prefer since they use it far more than we do. It worked out fine with what options they wanted/fabricated and I haven't seen any other options that would seem to work better for us. If we did a big fulldome production that might change... but it's not as complicated as it looks from the RED web site... here's what has worked for us...

        It's basically a decision in several areas... 1) the lens you want to use, 2) the storage media that fits your production pipeline, 3) the "tripod" or hand-held preferences, and 4) your previewing preferences.

        1) We use a Nikon mount fisheye lens so the Nikon mount option was needed for us... the other studio uses a PL mount for their commercial work.

        2) Size and weight is a concern for any hand-held use so we use the CF module for storage... and the CF module that RED offers is cheaper than the other media choices. Just use the RED prepped CF cards that are setup to quickly write what the camera is sending... tried using stock ones with no consistency... and they are limited to 16Gb ones, so get several. We just copy the cards to our computers and process. The other studio usually uses the larger storage options.

        3) As for the "rig," the rail design is going to depend on how you plan to use it. If you are going to mainly tripod mount it (or some other mounted approach), that will determine what options you get. Our rig is basically a custom two rail setup with a shoulder pad with fabricated "hand-holds" and a custom made plate for tripod mounting... there were not as many options when the RED One first came out so the other studio did some of their own fabrication for the hand-holds, etc. The "battle tested versions RED offers look similar and are probably very good Power is pretty straight-forward.

        4) For viewing we use the Touch 5" LCD... small for any hand-held work and easy to navigate the menus... the other studio has a bigger version for use with clients when tripod mounted.

        And 5) Don't forget a very good tripod...



        On Dec 26, 2012, at 1:18 PM, fortcollinsmuseum wrote:

        We are interested in spec'ing a RED camera package that would allow us to work with live video in our 4.3K dome theater. There are a bewildering variety of options and components! Can anyone recommend or share what they've put together, and how it's worked for them? Thanks! Terry


        ************************************************************
        H o m e R u n P i c t u r e s

        Tom Casey
        President & Creative DIrector

        100 First Avenue Suite 450 Pittsburgh, PA 15222 412-391-8200
        HomeRunPictures.com
      • Jeffrey S. Farrell
        Hi Terry, I have been a cinematographer for 20 years and in the biz for 25. I have spent the past year doing camera tests on a variety of platforms, RED
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 28, 2012
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          Hi Terry,

          I have been a cinematographer for 20 years and in the biz for 25. I have
          spent the past year doing camera tests on a variety of platforms, RED
          included. "RED" has been the buzzword for the past 4 years in the industry
          but there are plenty of options/competition now. I would be happy to discuss
          this with you. Pros/cons, RED competition and do you really need to own one.
          Most importantly, you need someone that knows how to operate it, light
          scenes and shoot. This genre of cameras are extremely technically difficult
          to just pick up and shoot.

          Feel free to call me. Today is best, I leave for a shoot in Mexico tomorrow.

          801.671.8357

          Jeffrey Farrell
          8K Productions
          www.8kproductions.com

          <https://www.facebook.com/8kproductions> facebook-32x32
          <https://www.twitter.com/8kproductions> twitter-32x32
          <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1125855/> imdb-32x32
        • Tom Casey
          Adding to Jeffrey s excellent comment and offer to help... I would have to add that shooting fulldome video has an even bigger challenge than the traditional
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 28, 2012
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            Adding to Jeffrey's excellent comment and offer to help... I would have to add that shooting "fulldome" video has an even bigger challenge than the traditional "framed" variety we are accustomed to for video broadcast and movies. Beyond the technical issues of operating the camera and lighting a scene (lighting is actually an extremely limited if not impossible task for fulldome), composing shots for the dome is very different than what even a seasoned professional has experienced in the flat arena. (No diz to Jeffery intended here!)

            Frankly, most of the time your camera rig is aiming almost straight up, an awkward position which does not resemble the traditional camera-man "behind" the camera experience. Remember that you don't really "point" the camera in fulldome, since your view is immersive not framed. If you have not spent many hours in the dome experiencing what works, you will quickly become frustrated with what you get even after passing the technical hurdles... and the creative side of a fulldome video capture pipeline is even a different animal compared to the usual CGI route which most in the fulldome biz are accustomed to.

            What I am saying is, expect a rather steep learning curve before things begin to work for you creatively if you decide to go this yourself. The RED offered the first acceptable resolution pipeline for those of us in the fuldome content biz. There are other possibilities now, camera-wise, but the main hurdle is on the creative side of the "immersive" capture from what we have experienced here.

            Good luck and if you want to talk further offline, I'm game for that too.

            Tom


            On Dec 28, 2012, at 4:51 PM, Jeffrey S. Farrell wrote:

            Most importantly, you need someone that knows how to operate it, light scenes and shoot. This genre of cameras are extremely technically difficult to just pick up and shoot.

            ************************************************************
            H o m e R u n P i c t u r e s

            Tom Casey
            President & Creative DIrector

            100 First Avenue Suite 450 Pittsburgh, PA 15222 412-391-8200
            HomeRunPictures.com
          • Paul
            ... A few random comments follow, please feel free to bounce any other questions my way. I ve played with the Red Epic and Scarlet, in the end decided on the
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 28, 2012
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              > We are interested in spec'ing a RED camera package that would allow us to work with live video in our 4.3K dome theater. There are a bewildering variety of options and components! Can anyone recommend or share what they've put together, and how it's worked for them? Thanks! Terry

              A few random comments follow, please feel free to bounce any other questions my way.

              I've played with the Red Epic and Scarlet, in the end decided on the Scarlet largely due to budgets for what was initially experimental. The target dome was the iDome so the camera is orientated in a forward direction, unlike for planetarium dome orientations. Most of our filming is with the camera mounted on a bike, segway, car. All shooting was powered, the batteries don't last long, we use a battery and inverter for non-mains powered sites.

              Tested some of the fisheye lenses
              http://paulbourke.net/dome/scarlet/
              The real pain with the Scarlet is that for an APS-C sensor fisheye lens it doesn't use the whole sensor, at 30fps. You only get that with the Epic. I did not manage to find any offset lens adaptors to move the truncation from the top (or bottom) to the other side.

              Definitely need to invest in at least a couple of 128GB drives, perhaps 256GB.

              Unlike some of the other replies, I find the processing pipeline extremely simple. Rip the frames off with their software doing basic colour/exposure adjustments. Or use the Adobe AfterEffects plugin which works well if you are using that anyway with the nave gar fulldome plugin. For those used to working in the fulldome space these should fit in with existing workflows, you just need lots of disk space (of course).

              ps: I still prefer the LadyBug though, the ability to change the viewing angle in postproduction is priceless. Unfortunately the new LadyBug-5 is only 10fps at full resolution.
            • Jeffrey S. Farrell
              Hi Tom et all, No diz taken! :-) You are absolutely right, shooting for the dome is completely different than shooting for flat cinema, TV, etc.. I have
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 29, 2012
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                Hi Tom et all,

                No "diz" taken! :-) You are absolutely right, shooting for the dome is completely different than shooting for flat cinema, TV, etc.. I have worked on many IMAX/OMNIMAX movies and our OMNIMAX versions were pretty much the same as shooting for a planetarium dome. We applied certain filtering, horizon lines and special movements to make "dome" shows really immersive for the audience.

                180 degree hemispherical dome shooting is pretty much identical to shooting OMNIMAX however at 24fps we had to be even more careful of strobing/picket fence effects.

                Cheers,
                Jeff
              • Ed Lantz
                Jeff Farrell writes: I have worked on many IMAX/OMNIMAX movies and our OMNIMAX versions were pretty much the same as shooting for a planetarium dome. While
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 1, 2013
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                  Jeff Farrell writes:

                  "I have worked on many IMAX/OMNIMAX movies and our OMNIMAX versions were
                  pretty much the same as shooting for a planetarium dome."

                  While Omnimax (IMAX Dome) films can screen in fulldome format, there are
                  also some important differences. Most fulldome films are shot/rendered in
                  native fisheye (180-degree vertical by 360 degree horizontal field-of-view)
                  format. Most IMAX format films are shot in flat screen format and later
                  adapted for the dome. While giant screen formatting for domes as mentioned
                  by Jeff is admirable (filtering, horizon lines and special movements to make
                  "dome" shows really immersive for the audience), the resulting film
                  typically cannot fully exploit the immersive nature of fulldome programming,
                  in my experience.

                  There are cognitive effects produced by parallax and "optic flow" across the
                  retina - especially in scenes rich in frame-to-frame depth disparity (for
                  instance, where the camera point-of-view moves through scenes with both near
                  and far objects) - that can induce a 3D effect in the brain without stereo
                  glasses. There are in fact over a dozen "monocular cues" for depth
                  perception and some of the key ones are difficult to preserve when
                  converting a flat-screen film into a dome film. The result is that, for
                  certain scenes, the brain perceives the image as being mapped onto a "bowl"
                  rather than being tricked into perceiving a vivid 3D sense-of-presence in an
                  infinite space.

                  Most fulldome films are also 30 fps and fully hemispheric.

                  Unfortunately, the resolution/frame rate limitations of digital cameras
                  force us to use "tricks" to capture fulldome imagery, including camera
                  clusters, truncated imagery (with visual effects to synthesize a fulldome
                  image if required), limited field-of-view imagery composited into fulldome
                  still frame "plates," re-mapping of flat-screen imagery, scaling up of
                  low-resolution fisheye cinematography of and such. Hopefully we'll soon have
                  an affordable yet robust fulldome camera solution for live-action
                  cinematography.

                  ed

                  From: fulldome@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fulldome@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Jeffrey S. Farrell
                  Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 1:50 PM
                  To: fulldome@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [fulldome] Re: RED camera package recommendations?

                  Hi Tom et all,

                  No "diz" taken! :-) You are absolutely right, shooting for the dome is
                  completely different than shooting for flat cinema, TV, etc.. I have worked
                  on many IMAX/OMNIMAX movies and our OMNIMAX versions were pretty much the
                  same as shooting for a planetarium dome. We applied certain filtering,
                  horizon lines and special movements to make "dome" shows really immersive
                  for the audience.

                  180 degree hemispherical dome shooting is pretty much identical to shooting
                  OMNIMAX however at 24fps we had to be even more careful of strobing/picket
                  fence effects.

                  Cheers,
                  Jeff
                • fortcollinsmuseum
                  Thank you to everyone for your helpful and thoughtful comments! Very useful and much appreciated! ... We are interested in spec ing a RED camera package that
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 2, 2013
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                    Thank you to everyone for your helpful and thoughtful comments! Very useful and much appreciated!

                    --- In fulldome@yahoogroups.com, "fortcollinsmuseum" <tburton@...> wrote:

                    We are interested in spec'ing a RED camera package that would allow us to work with live video in our 4.3K dome theater. There are a bewildering variety of options and components! Can anyone recommend or share what they've put together, and how it's worked for them? Thanks! Terry
                  • cpm5280
                    ... Yes, hopefully soon. With RED s forthcoming Dragon sensor upgrade to the Epic line (which will do 6K at 85fps on a 30.7 × 15.8mm sensor), the biggest
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 5, 2013
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                      --- In fulldome@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Lantz" wrote:

                      > Unfortunately, the resolution/frame rate limitations of digital cameras
                      > force us to use "tricks" to capture fulldome imagery, including camera
                      > clusters, truncated imagery (with visual effects to synthesize a fulldome
                      > image if required), limited field-of-view imagery composited into fulldome
                      > still frame "plates," re-mapping of flat-screen imagery, scaling up of
                      > low-resolution fisheye cinematography of and such. Hopefully we'll soon have
                      > an affordable yet robust fulldome camera solution for live-action
                      > cinematography.

                      Yes, hopefully soon. With RED's forthcoming "Dragon" sensor upgrade to the Epic line (which will do 6K at 85fps on a 30.7 × 15.8mm sensor), the biggest issue (aside from cost! hah!) is lenses. There are, of course, various fisheye lenses that will sort of do what we would all like, but none that are a) available b) affordable c) project the appropriate image circle size and d) retain enough quality at the edges to be useful for in-camera fulldome shooting.

                      The old 6mm Nikon fisheye will do 220 degree FOV, which would allow for a nice 180 degree crop, and the crop is from the weakest portion of the image, at the edges. Unfortunately, I think the last one I saw sold for six figures.
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