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Acoustic and Audio System Guidelines

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  • faboile14
    Hi, I am currently researching on Acoustic and Audio system guidelines for a dome/planetarium. Room acoustics: Basically I suppose cinema guidelines apply to
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 2, 2012
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      Hi,

      I am currently researching on Acoustic and Audio system guidelines for a dome/planetarium.

      Room acoustics:
      Basically I suppose cinema guidelines apply to planetaria, as well.
      I found slides on the Imersa hompage where it says hidden on a picture RT60=0.25. This is very low and far below what THX or recommend. Plus it is not very specific.
      Do you have experience with perforated Aluminium screens. Are they really sound transperent, so speakers can be placed behind?

      Audio System:
      I guess most content is produced in 5.1 or 7.1. In the Imersa slides there is a figure which shows speaker positions. It seems these are intended for a 5.1/7.1 system with more then one speaker per channel to cover a wider area. The elevated speakers though seem not to be intended for full 3D sound or spatial audio (where sound sources can be placed whereever possible). Unfortunately there is no text to explain routing and so on.

      Further, what kind of loudspeakers are usually used in a a big dome (20m diameter). Similar ones to cinema behind screen speakers?

      I want to suggest a 3D Audio system which does not prefer any direction and is compatible with all surround formats by employing virtual sources (so I can place ther left channel whereever needed and so on).

      Do you have any experience with such systems? Do you know more explicit guidelines? Any thoughts? Do you know someone that maybe knows more?

      Thanks
      Fabio
    • charles morrow
      Hi Fabio We produce MorrowSound True3D software which will do what you describe. It produces sound fields with a vertical component expands the flat plain and
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 3, 2012
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        Hi Fabio

        We produce MorrowSound True3D software which will do what you describe.
        It produces sound fields with a vertical component expands the flat plain
        and expands stereo, 5.1 and 7.1 to our cubic 8.1 ( or more woofers), 12.1( or more woofers), 16.1 etc.
        let's communicate directly to discuss your specific needs.

        Charlie

        Charles Morrow Productions LLC
        New York Helsinki LA Barton VT
        www.cmorrow.com
        +1646 235 7228



        On Oct 2, 2012, at 1:06 PM, faboile14 wrote:

        I am currently researching on Acoustic and Audio system guidelines for a dome/planetarium.

        Room acoustics:
        Basically I suppose cinema guidelines apply to planetaria, as well.
        I found slides on the Imersa hompage where it says hidden on a picture RT60=0.25. This is very low and far below what THX or recommend. Plus it is not very specific.
        Do you have experience with perforated Aluminium screens. Are they really sound transperent, so speakers can be placed behind?

        Audio System:
        I guess most content is produced in 5.1 or 7.1. In the Imersa slides there is a figure which shows speaker positions. It seems these are intended for a 5.1/7.1 system with more then one speaker per channel to cover a wider area. The elevated speakers though seem not to be intended for full 3D sound or spatial audio (where sound sources can be placed whereever possible). Unfortunately there is no text to explain routing and so on.

        Further, what kind of loudspeakers are usually used in a a big dome (20m diameter). Similar ones to cinema behind screen speakers?

        I want to suggest a 3D Audio system which does not prefer any direction and is compatible with all surround formats by employing virtual sources (so I can place ther left channel whereever needed and so on).

        Do you have any experience with such systems? Do you know more explicit guidelines? Any thoughts? Do you know someone that maybe knows more?

        Thanks
        Fabio


        charlie morrow
        Charles Morrow Productions LLC
        New York Helsinki LA Barton VT
        www.cmorrow.com
        +1 646 235 7228
      • Andy Dolph
        As someone who primarily works in sound reinforcement, I would not approach a project like this without an excellent acoustician and an excellent sound system
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 3, 2012
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          As someone who primarily works in sound reinforcement, I would
          not approach a project like this without an excellent acoustician and
          an excellent sound system design consultant, preferably people who are both
          at the top of their fields and have experience in planetarium/dome theater
          environments.

          My preference would also be that they be independent, IE not associated
          with any particular vendor - though I know there are several vendors in the
          industry who do design-build a lot of projects. I'm not questioning their
          abilities at all - I just prefer independent designers working WITH the
          selected vendor to eliminate any possible conflict of interest, or tendency
          to do things "how we've always done them."

          If you want some suggestions of consultants who I know are good, who you
          could talk to about this, contact me off list and I'll give you a couple of
          names.

          I would be very very wary of trying to do this yourself. Sound is my
          primary work, and I would not hesitate to design systems for most venues.
          I wouldn't touch a dome theater design with a 10 foot pole.

          That said -

          A couple of general thoughts about approach.

          If you expect to run a significant amount of content you're licensing from
          others, I would focus on making sure you have good 5.1/7.1 since that is
          what you'll have.

          If you want more options for in house productions, then I think my tendency
          would be to use the 5.1 system as a basis and then add additional "spot"
          channels in various locations around the theater - then when you want to
          move things to other places you route it to the appropriate loudspeaker(s)

          Something like a Meyer d-mitri system might be a good solution (though
          expensive)
          http://www.meyersound.com/products/#d-mitri

          There are various other spacial sound systems which I know people have used
          with varying levels of success - I don't have any experience with any of
          them (including the Meyer system - I just know that LCS(the company that
          developed the orignal tech that Meyer bought) has been used in a lot of
          high profile installations)

          All of that said - one of my primary concerns would be how to produce
          content for this kind of a system - typically fairly extensive
          mixing/programing is involved to do a show in any kind of surround.
          I would want to make sure that there was an easy way to set up the
          control/programing interface (whatever it is for a given system) someplace
          near the center of the theater so that you can mix where you can hear.

          Hope this is helpful!

          Andy

          On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:06 PM, faboile14 <faboile14@...> wrote:

          I am currently researching on Acoustic and Audio system guidelines for a dome/planetarium.

          Room acoustics:
          Basically I suppose cinema guidelines apply to planetaria, as well.
          I found slides on the Imersa hompage where it says hidden on a picture RT60=0.25. This is very low and far below what THX or recommend. Plus it is not very specific.
          Do you have experience with perforated Aluminium screens. Are they really sound transperent, so speakers can be placed behind?

          Audio System:
          I guess most content is produced in 5.1 or 7.1. In the Imersa slides there is a figure which shows speaker positions. It seems these are intended for a 5.1/7.1 system with more then one speaker per channel to cover a wider area. The elevated speakers though seem not to be intended for full 3D sound or spatial audio (where sound sources can be placed whereever possible). Unfortunately there is no text to explain routing and so on.

          Further, what kind of loudspeakers are usually used in a a big dome (20m diameter). Similar ones to cinema behind screen speakers?

          I want to suggest a 3D Audio system which does not prefer any direction and is compatible with all surround formats by employing virtual sources (so I can place ther left channel whereever needed and so on).

          Do you have any experience with such systems? Do you know more explicit guidelines? Any thoughts? Do you know someone that maybe knows more?

          Thanks
          Fabio
        • Eric Knisley
          Hi folks. Not exactly a fulldome, but closely related on many fronts. Here s a video of our Immersive Theater at the NC Museum of Natural Sciences
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 4, 2012
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            Hi folks. Not exactly a fulldome, but closely related on many fronts.
            Here's a video of our Immersive Theater at the NC Museum of Natural
            Sciences <http://naturalsciences.org/>. We're testing interactive 3D
            content made with Unity3D and enabled via the Omnity
            <http://www.elumenati.com/products/software/omnity/> plugin from the
            Elumenati. The cool thing is that this plugin can make the output
            correct for domes, panos, fulldomes, vertical domes....whatever. So a
            presentation crafted for use in one environment can be ported to another
            with relative ease.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqKWrXX-yQ0&feature=youtu.be

            I'd be interested to hear about what other people are doing with
            real-time 3D in domes and similar systems. Given the steadily-increasing
            quality of real-time rendered content, I think it's already a reasonable
            alternative to fully-rendered content for some applications, and will
            probably be more widely applicable in the future. Cheers,

            --ek

            -- Eric Knisley Cartoonist | Illustrator | Animator | Photographer
            Carrboro | NC | US | www.silent-k.net +1 919-491-7406
          • Theo. A. Artz
            Eric, Thanks for the real-time 3D info. The question that arose instantly for me: Is this Unity 3D plug-in solution applicable to fulldome theaters using
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 4, 2012
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              Eric,

              Thanks for the "real-time" 3D info. The question that arose instantly for
              me: Is this Unity 3D plug-in solution applicable to fulldome theaters using
              multiple projector systems (IOW, how are the real-time rendered images
              sliced, distributed (..and edge-blended) synchronously displayed), or is
              this limited solely to single fish-eye projector scenarios?

              Thanks,

              Ted

              On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Eric Knisley <knisley@...> wrote:

              Hi folks. Not exactly a fulldome, but closely related on many fronts.
              Here's a video of our Immersive Theater at the NC Museum of Natural
              Sciences <http://naturalsciences.org/>. We're testing interactive 3D
              content made with Unity3D and enabled via the Omnity
              <http://www.elumenati.com/products/software/omnity/> plugin from the
              Elumenati. The cool thing is that this plugin can make the output
              correct for domes, panos, fulldomes, vertical domes....whatever. So a
              presentation crafted for use in one environment can be ported to another
              with relative ease.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqKWrXX-yQ0&feature=youtu.be

              I'd be interested to hear about what other people are doing with
              real-time 3D in domes and similar systems. Given the steadily-increasing
              quality of real-time rendered content, I think it's already a reasonable
              alternative to fully-rendered content for some applications, and will
              probably be more widely applicable in the future. Cheers,

              --ek

              -- Eric Knisley Cartoonist | Illustrator | Animator | Photographer
              Carrboro | NC | US | www.silent-k.net +1 919-491-7406


              --
              Theo. A. Artz
              Associate Professor, Digital Media Program
              Cinema & Television Department
              Westphal College of Media Arts & Design
              Drexel University
              Nesbitt Hall, 33rd & Market Streets
              Philadelphia, PA 19104
            • Ed Lantz
              Thanks for sharing your Unity3D tests, Eric. We ve had great results using Derivative Touch Designer , which we used for our Nokia
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 4, 2012
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                Thanks for sharing your Unity3D tests, Eric. We've had great results using
                Derivative Touch Designer <http://www.derivative.ca/> , which we used for
                our Nokia Lab
                <http://vorteximmersion.com/vortex_mobile_domes_nokia_sxsw_2012.php> at
                SXSW and NFL Kinect Play60 Fan Dome
                <http://vorteximmersion.com/vortex_mobile_domes_xbox_kinect_nfl_play60_fando
                me_super_bowl_2012.php> at the Super Bowl this year. The multi-projector
                mapping was initially quite difficult, requiring a lot of custom
                programming, but the dome is now a 360 degree portal into programmable 3D
                environments. Our artists in residence have also been using Module 8 to map
                VJ content to the dome. Real-time mapping has given us incredible
                flexibility in rapidly designing immersive experiences.


                ed
              • Eric Knisley
                Hi Ted, Two answers for you: in the case of this system, which is a single-projector fisheye, the output is limited to that approach. But when I worked at the
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 4, 2012
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                  Hi Ted,
                  Two answers for you: in the case of this system, which is a
                  single-projector fisheye, the output is limited to that approach. But
                  when I worked at the Renaissance Computing Institute at UNC-Chapel Hill,
                  we had a full dome with four projectors, and developed an in-house
                  JavaScript plugin for Unity that worked very well with that system. I
                  don't think I still have that chunk of code, but if you would like, I'd
                  be happy to connect you to my colleagues who wrote it. Do you have a
                  potential application?

                  The concept, as I understand it (I'm not a programmer), is that you
                  render from a given set of cameras to a set of polygons. The cameras
                  have to mimic the real-world placement and angles of the projectors in
                  your dome system, so if those numbers are known, then it should be
                  doable. Hope that's helpful. Cheers,

                  --ek



                  On 10/4/2012 12:00 PM, Theo. A. Artz wrote:

                  Thanks for the "real-time" 3D info. The question that arose instantly for
                  me: Is this Unity 3D plug-in solution applicable to fulldome theaters using
                  multiple projector systems (IOW, how are the real-time rendered images
                  sliced, distributed (..and edge-blended) synchronously displayed), or is
                  this limited solely to single fish-eye projector scenarios?

                  Thanks,

                  Ted

                  On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Eric Knisley <knisley@... <mailto:knisley%40silent-k.net>> wrote:

                  Hi folks. Not exactly a fulldome, but closely related on many fronts.
                  Here's a video of our Immersive Theater at the NC Museum of Natural
                  Sciences <http://naturalsciences.org/>. We're testing interactive 3D
                  content made with Unity3D and enabled via the Omnity
                  <http://www.elumenati.com/products/software/omnity/> plugin from the
                  Elumenati. The cool thing is that this plugin can make the output
                  correct for domes, panos, fulldomes, vertical domes....whatever. So a
                  presentation crafted for use in one environment can be ported to another
                  with relative ease.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqKWrXX-yQ0&feature=youtu.be

                  I'd be interested to hear about what other people are doing with
                  real-time 3D in domes and similar systems. Given the steadily-increasing
                  quality of real-time rendered content, I think it's already a reasonable
                  alternative to fully-rendered content for some applications, and will
                  probably be more widely applicable in the future. Cheers,

                  --ek

                  -- Eric Knisley Cartoonist | Illustrator | Animator | Photographer
                  Carrboro | NC | US | www.silent-k.net +1 919-491-7406

                  --
                  Theo. A. Artz
                  Associate Professor, Digital Media Program
                  Cinema & Television Department
                  Westphal College of Media Arts & Design
                  Drexel University
                  Nesbitt Hall, 33rd & Market Streets
                  Philadelphia, PA 19104

                  --

                  Eric Knisley
                  Cartoonist | Illustrator | Animator | Photographer
                  Carrboro | NC | US | www.silent-k.net
                  +1 919-491-7406
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