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Colour spaces

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  • Axel Straschnoy
    Hello all, I m in the process of finishing my first fulldome film. When looking at the material in a test dome and in a18m-wide dome I realised that there is
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 1, 2012
      Hello all,

      I'm in the process of finishing my first fulldome film. When looking at the material in a test dome and in a18m-wide dome I realised that there is quite a big difference in colour saturation and contrast. I was wondering if this would also be true from one full size dome to the next, as the configuration changes.

      While I can colour grade for my home dome I was wondering if there was such a thing as a broadcast standard for fulldome films, or if something like a LUT is applied to each film as it is sliced. It would be a pity to loose all the colour work as soon as you change venue.

      Thanks for the help,

      Axel

      Axel Straschnoy
      axel@...
    • Amr El-Laithy
      Dear Axel , Last month i was in FullDome Festival at Jena-Germany and we were talking about that , i think you should consider a brighter result at dome and
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 4, 2012
        Dear Axel ,

        Last month i was in FullDome Festival at Jena-Germany and we were talking about that , i think you should consider a brighter result at dome and work with this in mind as we produce our film we consider that and adjust the saturation and the contrast but LUT preset we did for our work . try to use The foundry nuke Grade node .


        Amr

        ________________________________
        From: Axel Straschnoy <axel@...>
        To: "fulldome@yahoogroups.com" <fulldome@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, June 1, 2012 11:27 AM
        Subject: [fulldome] Colour spaces


        Hello all,

        I'm in the process of finishing my first fulldome film. When looking at the material in a test dome and in a18m-wide dome I realised that there is quite a big difference in colour saturation and contrast. I was wondering if this would also be true from one full size dome to the next, as the configuration changes.

        While I can colour grade for my home dome I was wondering if there was such a thing as a broadcast standard for fulldome films, or if something like a LUT is applied to each film as it is sliced. It would be a pity to loose all the colour work as soon as you change venue.

        Thanks for the help,

        Axel

        Axel Straschnoy
        axel@...
      • Glen Moore
        Hi Axel I have found that the brightness of the projector as a function of dome size is a significant factor in the visual impression of colour saturation and
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 4, 2012
          Hi Axel

          I have found that the brightness of the projector as a function of dome size is a significant factor in the visual impression of colour saturation and contrast.

          Best regards
          Glen


          From: fulldome@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fulldome@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Straschnoy
          Sent: Friday, 1 June 2012 7:28 PM
          To: fulldome@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [fulldome] Colour spaces


          Hello all,

          I'm in the process of finishing my first fulldome film. When looking at the material in a test dome and in a18m-wide dome I realised that there is quite a big difference in colour saturation and contrast. I was wondering if this would also be true from one full size dome to the next, as the configuration changes.

          While I can colour grade for my home dome I was wondering if there was such a thing as a broadcast standard for fulldome films, or if something like a LUT is applied to each film as it is sliced. It would be a pity to loose all the colour work as soon as you change venue.

          Thanks for the help,

          Axel

          Axel Straschnoy
          axel@...
        • Tom Casey
          There are many factors... More than can be measured to suite, the final control needs to be adjusted at each facility... Projectors, lenses, graphic cards,
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 4, 2012
            There are many factors... More than can be measured to suite, the final control needs to be adjusted at each facility... Projectors, lenses, graphic cards, dome size, dome reflectivity, ambient levels, and on and on, best way to handle is with a higher Rex master saved in a non compressed format allowing local adjustment. But then it can become a subjective decision unfortunately...

            Tom Casey
            H o m e R u n P I c t u r e s


            On Jun 4, 2012, at 7:21 PM, Glen Moore <gkm@...> wrote:

            Hi Axel

            I have found that the brightness of the projector as a function of dome size is a significant factor in the visual impression of colour saturation and contrast.

            Best regards
            Glen


            From: fulldome@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fulldome@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Straschnoy
            Sent: Friday, 1 June 2012 7:28 PM
            To: fulldome@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [fulldome] Colour spaces


            Hello all,

            I'm in the process of finishing my first fulldome film. When looking at the material in a test dome and in a18m-wide dome I realised that there is quite a big difference in colour saturation and contrast. I was wondering if this would also be true from one full size dome to the next, as the configuration changes.

            While I can colour grade for my home dome I was wondering if there was such a thing as a broadcast standard for fulldome films, or if something like a LUT is applied to each film as it is sliced. It would be a pity to loose all the colour work as soon as you change venue.

            Thanks for the help,

            Axel

            Axel Straschnoy
            axel@...
          • Jack Dunn
            Glen Moore wrote: Hi Axel I have found that the brightness of the projector as a function of dome size is a significant factor in the visual impression of
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 4, 2012
              Glen Moore wrote:

              Hi Axel

              I have found that the brightness of the projector as a function of dome size is a significant factor in the visual impression of colour saturation and contrast.

              ---

              A great deal has to do with the type of projector and its calibration.
              There are so many differences in projectors
              and how they handle color and its depth in addition to if the projector
              has been calibrated. This is where fulldome
              does not yet have the standards found previously in the video and film
              industries.

              --
              Clear DARK Skies


              Jack Dunn - at home account
            • Axel Straschnoy
              Hello, thanks to all for your comments. Maybe I was not clear in my first email. We did notice that the dome we are working on has quite different contrast and
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 6, 2012
                Hello,

                thanks to all for your comments.

                Maybe I was not clear in my first email. We did notice that the dome we are working on has quite different contrast and saturation ratios as our screens (we had not realized about the gamut, which Clement also suggests). Our solution so far is to colour grade the film in calibrated monitors and then develop an LUT for our home dome (we are doing this by testing different calibration images in the dome). If we can find the exact LUT that describes our dome's colour space we can be sure that what we see in our monitors is what will be projected there (granted, with a reduction of gamut and black point).

                The problem we are seeing is that we have also been looking at the film in a 2m wide, single projector, test dome and we have noticed that its colour reproduction is a lot closer to that of our monitors (our big dome is 18m wide and has only two projectors to cover that big area). Therefore my fear is that if I create a dome master suited for a calibrated screen it will look washed and dark in big domes. However, if I create a dome master which looks perfect in our home dome and then someone projects it in a smaller dome, or one with more projectors/lumens, my colors will get a bit radioactive.

                I understand from Tom's email that every planetarium will do some local adjustment but which master should I then provide? The calibrated screen version or the souped up version for big dome or is there such a thing as a standard fulldome colour space I should render to?

                thanks again for your help,

                Axel
              • Jan Toensmann
                Hi Alex, The situation you describe is common in any media production workflow, whether for TV or Film as well.  In any production, there simply currently
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 6, 2012
                  Hi Alex,

                  The situation you describe is common in any media production workflow, whether for TV or Film as well.  In any production, there simply currently isn't a single 'one stop' solution that will both accurately represent colors on any medium, and match the light density between a monitor and projected surface, accurately enough for your eyes not to notice any difference, and provide guaranteed results (even though, yes, calibration solutions go a very long way).

                  Welcome to the nightmare that is producing content for 'flexible solutions'.

                  This has always been a problem in digital production for as long as I remember (I won't open the analog can of worms here), starting with noticeable differences between televisions and higher class professional monitors two decades ago when trying to grade TVCs for clients without the colors going bananas once it was broadcast (especially if one used 'budget' equipment), through to working digitally with film and printing it out again for celluloid projection, and now digital projection (which is what Cineon/DPX log format and a lot of modern LUT tools were originally developed for).  Not to mention, even today, home television users can crank all the colors and brightness as they wish, imagine this to being similar to having huge differences in the shape, configuration, and sizes of domes.

                  At least with film, there was a somewhat consistent projection standard of having a large, rectangular, flat projection screen facing the audience...  Even today, however, shortcuts such as theaters using cheaper 'bulbs with lower lumens' or outdated early generation projection systems means many films aren't quite being shown as their Directors/DOPs/etc assume it to be either, even if the theaters are accurately calibrated to begin with.

                  With domes, and all their variations, this becomes infinitely more complex, given both how light responds on a domed surface, where one sits, and how light and colors vary depending on these conditions beyond the content and projector's calibration potential.  You're likely to find there isn't "one size that fits all", yet...  And would, in your shoes, aim to find a happy medium (as the old sayin' goes) between what looks best on both sized domes simultaneously, if you're not prepared to individually customize the 'look' for each dome configuration you're aiming to show you content on (which I know, is a lot more work, and perfection doesn't come easy).

                  At least, color fidelity can be a lot more accurate today than it used to be, albeit at the price of complexity -as our ability to distinguish fidelity increases with the resolution and quality of the content being produced every new day.

                  Good luck!  Aim for impact on where most users are likely to see your film, and make the best of it for now, or get stuck in quicksand of trying to make it perfect.

                  -jan.


                  Ps.  These are just .02 cents I'm sharing.  Don't pull my arm off.
                • Antoine Durr
                  Film, well, modern digital projection, has a pretty tightly defined standard, at least on the producer s side. Sure, the theaters are a mixed bag, but the
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 9, 2012
                    Film, well, modern digital projection, has a pretty tightly defined standard, at least on the producer's side. Sure, the theaters are a mixed bag, but the variation from one to the next is, on average, pretty minimal. I only once recall going to a theater and exclaiming "wow, that was dark" -- something that is unfortunately fairly common in the fulldome world. Of course, IMAX (the analog version) has a super-tightly defined projection standard, which is part of why it's such a great medium.

                    So while "flat" has a well defined producer's color pipeline, fulldome does not. Is it Rec 709? Is it DCI-P3? Is it something else? There is no target, even before the theaters (many of which run at reduced bulb count to save money and lose customers) impart their interpretation onto the source material. This, IMO, is the biggest issue in fulldome contributing to less than memorable experiences.

                    -- Antoine

                    On Jun 6, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Jan Toensmann wrote:

                    Hi Alex,

                    The situation you describe is common in any media production workflow, whether for TV or Film as well. In any production, there simply currently isn't a single 'one stop' solution that will both accurately represent colors on any medium, and match the light density between a monitor and projected surface, accurately enough for your eyes not to notice any difference, and provide guaranteed results (even though, yes, calibration solutions go a very long way).

                    Welcome to the nightmare that is producing content for 'flexible solutions'.

                    This has always been a problem in digital production for as long as I remember (I won't open the analog can of worms here), starting with noticeable differences between televisions and higher class professional monitors two decades ago when trying to grade TVCs for clients without the colors going bananas once it was broadcast (especially if one used 'budget' equipment), through to working digitally with film and printing it out again for celluloid projection, and now digital projection (which is what Cineon/DPX log format and a lot of modern LUT tools were originally developed for). Not to mention, even today, home television users can crank all the colors and brightness as they wish, imagine this to being similar to having huge differences in the shape, configuration, and sizes of domes.

                    At least with film, there was a somewhat consistent projection standard of having a large, rectangular, flat projection screen facing the audience... Even today, however, shortcuts such as theaters using cheaper 'bulbs with lower lumens' or outdated early generation projection systems means many films aren't quite being shown as their Directors/DOPs/etc assume it to be either, even if the theaters are accurately calibrated to begin with.

                    With domes, and all their variations, this becomes infinitely more complex, given both how light responds on a domed surface, where one sits, and how light and colors vary depending on these conditions beyond the content and projector's calibration potential. You're likely to find there isn't "one size that fits all", yet... And would, in your shoes, aim to find a happy medium (as the old sayin' goes) between what looks best on both sized domes simultaneously, if you're not prepared to individually customize the 'look' for each dome configuration you're aiming to show you content on (which I know, is a lot more work, and perfection doesn't come easy).

                    At least, color fidelity can be a lot more accurate today than it used to be, albeit at the price of complexity -as our ability to distinguish fidelity increases with the resolution and quality of the content being produced every new day.

                    Good luck! Aim for impact on where most users are likely to see your film, and make the best of it for now, or get stuck in quicksand of trying to make it perfect.

                    -jan.


                    Ps. These are just .02 cents I'm sharing. Don't pull my arm off.
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