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Re: Trying to Achieve 8k

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  • Mike Murray
    I m truly grateful for the excellent points being made about resolution, frame rate, motion blur, contrast, dynamic range, clarity, etc. It s educational to
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 28 8:21 PM
      I'm truly grateful for the excellent points being made about resolution, frame rate, motion blur, contrast, dynamic range, clarity, etc. It's educational to talk about these things in technical terms but like Tom pointed out, it really comes down to "perception." For example, where dome CGI animation is concerned, our tests with motion blur didn't look as good as increased frame rate, but that's our own personal perception and may not reflect the public's perception. Indeed there is more research to do and I look forward to hearing about other people's experiments and audience impressions. This should make for some interesting conversations at IMERSA next week!



      Cheers,

      Mike


      ******************************
      Mike Murray, Programs Manager
      Clark Planetarium
      Salt Lake City, Utah
      clarkplanetarium.org/distribution
    • Tom Kwasnitschka
      Patrick, my suggestion: Shoot some 7+k fulldome time lapse content and do your tests at different speeds. The nature of the content should give you the amount
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 30 6:59 AM
        Patrick, my suggestion:
        Shoot some 7+k fulldome time lapse content and do your tests at
        different speeds.
        The nature of the content should give you the amount of complexity you
        need, arguing for your statement.

        Tom

        --
        Tom Kwasnitschka
        executive associate

        allsky.de
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      • Ryan Wyatt
        Here at the IMERSA Summit in Denver, Brad Thomson geeked out for one slide yesterday and reminded me of a point I wanted to make on this 8k topic. Basically,
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 4, 2012
          Here at the IMERSA Summit in Denver, Brad Thomson geeked out for one slide yesterday and reminded me of a point I wanted to make on this 8k topic.

          Basically, Brad noted that the Spitz Creative Media team works in higher bit depth (linear-gamma full float, to be specific) before “printing” to 8-bit for distribution. At the Academy’s visualization studio, we also work in higher bit depth, and while respecting some of the conversation about resolution and frame rate, I think it’s worth noting that bit depth is of critical importance for two reasons: 1) to have greater flexibility in final compositing and color or gamma adjustment for the display version of the show and 2) to optimize and to future-proof your content for various and emergent display system.

          On the topics of resolution and frame rate, I’ll just say that I think 8k is overkill and it’d be keen to create content at 48fps or 60fps (and I had an interesting conversation at dinner about how the former might make more sense than the latter from a production standpoint, in terms of the availability of technology that supports 48fps).


          Ryan, a.k.a.
          Ryan Wyatt, Director
          Morrison Planetarium and Science Visualization
          California Academy of Sciences
          55 Music Concourse Drive
          San Francisco, CA 94118


          On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:22 AM, animato727 wrote:

          Thank you Mike for taking the time to do this and for sharing your results. More of us need to do this type of sharing. And someone has to stick their neck out first. :)

          For all the sane and deeply thoughtful answers to the issues concerning resolution and frame rate on the dome, sometimes there is a simple insane answer. 8k 60fps. Our next, more traditional Planetarium show will be this insane. And were not doing it for press or bragging rights. There is a very noticeable difference for us and we hope to pass it along to our guests.
          But it is all content dependent. Slow moving object do not benefit as much from frame rate but fly a bit faster through a star field and 60fps almost looks magical.

          Does your 4k look like 2k? I would say someone didn't set anti-aliasing and/or sampling filters right. Or like Mike said, the 4k quality was never there to start. Sometimes you just have to get those render times down.

          To me, right now there are too many variables for any one test to be used as a reliable solution for general show making standards across all Planetaria. If anyone has an idea for a great 8k test, just let us know. We would be happy to facilitate it.

          Show making is an art and a science, and finding the right balance between the two is the key.

          Patrick



          Patrick McPike
          Technical Director
          Adler Planetarium
          pmcpike@...

          --- In fulldome@yahoogroups.com, Mike Murray <mmurray@...> wrote:

          I have to say again that if your creative canvas is a surface area as expansive as a hemispherical screen, an audience's perception of detail and realism won't come from resolutions beyond 4k. It's going to come from higher frame rates. I feel more confident than ever in saying this because we've spent the last 9 months creating (and comparing) 4k animations at 30fps to 60fps. The difference has been phenomenal not only in terms of visual impact, but also in terms of avoiding ridiculously long render times, stitching/geometry issues, and video encoding at bit rates that can accurately reflect 8k content with current technology.

          We're already seeing a situation where some of what is called "4k content" is actually composed of vector counts and textures that would look virtually the same at 2k. Sometimes I feel like the talk of "resolution" is more of a marketing buzz word than an actual measurable impact on viewer impression. The still photography of true 8k resolution might look a little bit better than 4k to the experienced producer's eye, but is it a really a huge „wow‰ factor *in the eyes of the general public*? Under most circumstances I would say no, but crafty marketing can make audiences feel like it is. Especially if they haven't even been to their local planetarium in X number of years.

          Our next full length feature show will be our first at 4k (a fully complex 4k environment) and 60fps. The higher frame rate make scene movements and color definition look amazingly sharp, smooth, and defined. In fact, because of the screen size, I hope someday to get to frame rates even higher than 60fps!

          I'm happy to see experiments with 8k content - it's a necessary exercise for comparison. But the next logical step ultimately comes down to a comparison of production techniques, discernible detail, public impression, cost-benefit analyses, and business sustainability.

          Stepping off my pedestal now...


          Mike.

          ********************************
          Mike Murray, Programs Manager
          Clark Planetarium
          Salt Lake City, Utah
          mmurray@...
          http://www.clarkplanetarium.org/distribution
        • Tom Casey
          I will agree with most of what is being said here from the producers viewpoint... taking in to account what current pipelines are capable of creating, what
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 5, 2012
            I will agree with most of what is being said here from the producers viewpoint... taking in to account what current pipelines are capable of creating, what works on the dome and then there's that budget thing and what the client asks you for (related to the budget usually). Working in a higher bit depth does little to increase the pipeline's load assuming you have the applications that can handle it. 8K is a massive increase in rendering with little gain in my opinion, But I still feel that things like motion blur will add far more to the viewer's impression than increased frame rates.

            Tom



            On Feb 4, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Ryan Wyatt wrote:

            Here at the IMERSA Summit in Denver, Brad Thomson geeked out for one slide yesterday and reminded me of a point I wanted to make on this 8k topic.

            Basically, Brad noted that the Spitz Creative Media team works in higher bit depth (linear-gamma full float, to be specific) before �printing� to 8-bit for distribution. At the Academy�s visualization studio, we also work in higher bit depth, and while respecting some of the conversation about resolution and frame rate, I think it�s worth noting that bit depth is of critical importance for two reasons: 1) to have greater flexibility in final compositing and color or gamma adjustment for the display version of the show and 2) to optimize and to future-proof your content for various and emergent display system.

            On the topics of resolution and frame rate, I�ll just say that I think 8k is overkill and it�d be keen to create content at 48fps or 60fps (and I had an interesting conversation at dinner about how the former might make more sense than the latter from a production standpoint, in terms of the availability of technology that supports 48fps).


            Ryan, a.k.a.
            Ryan Wyatt, Director
            Morrison Planetarium and Science Visualization
            California Academy of Sciences
            55 Music Concourse Drive
            San Francisco, CA 94118


            On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:22 AM, animato727 wrote:

            Thank you Mike for taking the time to do this and for sharing your results. More of us need to do this type of sharing. And someone has to stick their neck out first. :)

            For all the sane and deeply thoughtful answers to the issues concerning resolution and frame rate on the dome, sometimes there is a simple insane answer. 8k 60fps. Our next, more traditional Planetarium show will be this insane. And were not doing it for press or bragging rights. There is a very noticeable difference for us and we hope to pass it along to our guests.
            But it is all content dependent. Slow moving object do not benefit as much from frame rate but fly a bit faster through a star field and 60fps almost looks magical.

            Does your 4k look like 2k? I would say someone didn't set anti-aliasing and/or sampling filters right. Or like Mike said, the 4k quality was never there to start. Sometimes you just have to get those render times down.

            To me, right now there are too many variables for any one test to be used as a reliable solution for general show making standards across all Planetaria. If anyone has an idea for a great 8k test, just let us know. We would be happy to facilitate it.

            Show making is an art and a science, and finding the right balance between the two is the key.

            Patrick



            Patrick McPike
            Technical Director
            Adler Planetarium
            pmcpike@...

            --- In fulldome@yahoogroups.com, Mike Murray <mmurray@...> wrote:

            I have to say again that if your creative canvas is a surface area as expansive as a hemispherical screen, an audience's perception of detail and realism won't come from resolutions beyond 4k. It's going to come from higher frame rates. I feel more confident than ever in saying this because we've spent the last 9 months creating (and comparing) 4k animations at 30fps to 60fps. The difference has been phenomenal not only in terms of visual impact, but also in terms of avoiding ridiculously long render times, stitching/geometry issues, and video encoding at bit rates that can accurately reflect 8k content with current technology.

            We're already seeing a situation where some of what is called "4k content" is actually composed of vector counts and textures that would look virtually the same at 2k. Sometimes I feel like the talk of "resolution" is more of a marketing buzz word than an actual measurable impact on viewer impression. The still photography of true 8k resolution might look a little bit better than 4k to the experienced producer's eye, but is it a really a huge �wow� factor *in the eyes of the general public*? Under most circumstances I would say no, but crafty marketing can make audiences feel like it is. Especially if they haven't even been to their local planetarium in X number of years.

            Our next full length feature show will be our first at 4k (a fully complex 4k environment) and 60fps. The higher frame rate make scene movements and color definition look amazingly sharp, smooth, and defined. In fact, because of the screen size, I hope someday to get to frame rates even higher than 60fps!

            I'm happy to see experiments with 8k content - it's a necessary exercise for comparison. But the next logical step ultimately comes down to a comparison of production techniques, discernible detail, public impression, cost-benefit analyses, and business sustainability.

            Stepping off my pedestal now...


            Mike.

            ********************************
            Mike Murray, Programs Manager
            Clark Planetarium
            Salt Lake City, Utah
            mmurray@...
            http://www.clarkplanetarium.org/distribution

            ************************************************
            H o m e R u n P i c t u r e s

            Tom Casey
            President & Creative DIrector

            100 First Avenue - Suite 450
            Pittsburgh, PA 15222
            Studio: 412-391-8200
            mailto:tom@...
            http://www.homerunpictures.com
          • Aaron Bradbury
            Re: bit-depth... I completely agree. Here at NSC Creative we also use a linear workflow, usually with OpenEXR half-float (16bit). EXR s are also incredibly
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 6, 2012
              Re: bit-depth... I completely agree. Here at NSC Creative we also use a linear workflow, usually with OpenEXR half-float (16bit). EXR's are also incredibly useful for storing additional G-buffer channels such as reflection, z-depth, material ID's etc. It is worth pointing out that these require much more storage space and can slow down rendering and compositing, so it's a good idea to test them out at production level before committing to using them on a big project.

              Aaron Bradbury
              CG Supervisor - NSC creative
              National Space Centre, Exploration Drive, Leicester, LE4 5NS, UK
              Tel:  +44 (0) 116 2582151
              http://www.NSCcreative.com/
              aaronb@...

              -----Original Message-----
              From: fulldome@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fulldome@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Wyatt
              Sent: 04 February 2012 21:36
              To: fulldome@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Ryan Wyatt
              Subject: [fulldome] Re: Trying to Achieve 8k

              Here at the IMERSA Summit in Denver, Brad Thomson geeked out for one slide yesterday and reminded me of a point I wanted to make on this 8k topic.

              Basically, Brad noted that the Spitz Creative Media team works in higher bit depth (linear-gamma full float, to be specific) before “printing” to 8-bit for distribution. At the Academy’s visualization studio, we also work in higher bit depth, and while respecting some of the conversation about resolution and frame rate, I think it’s worth noting that bit depth is of critical importance for two reasons: 1) to have greater flexibility in final compositing and color or gamma adjustment for the display version of the show and 2) to optimize and to future-proof your content for various and emergent display system.

              On the topics of resolution and frame rate, I’ll just say that I think 8k is overkill and it’d be keen to create content at 48fps or 60fps (and I had an interesting conversation at dinner about how the former might make more sense than the latter from a production standpoint, in terms of the availability of technology that supports 48fps).


              Ryan, a.k.a.
              Ryan Wyatt, Director
              Morrison Planetarium and Science Visualization California Academy of Sciences
              55 Music Concourse Drive
              San Francisco, CA 94118


              On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:22 AM, animato727 wrote:

              Thank you Mike for taking the time to do this and for sharing your results. More of us need to do this type of sharing. And someone has to stick their neck out first. :)

              For all the sane and deeply thoughtful answers to the issues concerning resolution and frame rate on the dome, sometimes there is a simple insane answer. 8k 60fps. Our next, more traditional Planetarium show will be this insane. And were not doing it for press or bragging rights. There is a very noticeable difference for us and we hope to pass it along to our guests.
              But it is all content dependent. Slow moving object do not benefit as much from frame rate but fly a bit faster through a star field and 60fps almost looks magical.

              Does your 4k look like 2k? I would say someone didn't set anti-aliasing and/or sampling filters right. Or like Mike said, the 4k quality was never there to start. Sometimes you just have to get those render times down.

              To me, right now there are too many variables for any one test to be used as a reliable solution for general show making standards across all Planetaria. If anyone has an idea for a great 8k test, just let us know. We would be happy to facilitate it.

              Show making is an art and a science, and finding the right balance between the two is the key.

              Patrick



              Patrick McPike
              Technical Director
              Adler Planetarium
              pmcpike@...

              --- In fulldome@yahoogroups.com, Mike Murray <mmurray@...> wrote:

              I have to say again that if your creative canvas is a surface area as expansive as a hemispherical screen, an audience's perception of detail and realism won't come from resolutions beyond 4k. It's going to come from higher frame rates. I feel more confident than ever in saying this because we've spent the last 9 months creating (and comparing) 4k animations at 30fps to 60fps. The difference has been phenomenal not only in terms of visual impact, but also in terms of avoiding ridiculously long render times, stitching/geometry issues, and video encoding at bit rates that can accurately reflect 8k content with current technology.

              We're already seeing a situation where some of what is called "4k content" is actually composed of vector counts and textures that would look virtually the same at 2k. Sometimes I feel like the talk of "resolution" is more of a marketing buzz word than an actual measurable impact on viewer impression. The still photography of true 8k resolution might look a little bit better than 4k to the experienced producer's eye, but is it a really a huge „wow‰ factor *in the eyes of the general public*? Under most circumstances I would say no, but crafty marketing can make audiences feel like it is. Especially if they haven't even been to their local planetarium in X number of years.

              Our next full length feature show will be our first at 4k (a fully complex 4k environment) and 60fps. The higher frame rate make scene movements and color definition look amazingly sharp, smooth, and defined. In fact, because of the screen size, I hope someday to get to frame rates even higher than 60fps!

              I'm happy to see experiments with 8k content - it's a necessary exercise for comparison. But the next logical step ultimately comes down to a comparison of production techniques, discernible detail, public impression, cost-benefit analyses, and business sustainability.

              Stepping off my pedestal now...


              Mike.

              ********************************
              Mike Murray, Programs Manager
              Clark Planetarium
              Salt Lake City, Utah
              mmurray@...
              http://www.clarkplanetarium.org/distribution
            • dsm_clark
              Here here to high bit-depth composites!! Perfect Little Planet is a series of firsts for us at the Clark Planetarium. The rendered layers are openEXR, though
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 6, 2012
                Here here to high bit-depth composites!!

                Perfect Little Planet is a series of firsts for us at the Clark Planetarium. The rendered layers are openEXR, though After Effects doesn't work well with the zDepth or other buffers in EXR. For that we just save a pass as a separate file. Also we're launching at 60 fps as Mike mentioned in an earlier post.

                On a side note, Aaron, are you experiencing as bad of a slow down using EXR as with PNG? We're finding the EXRs write in half the time as compared to PNG, without a lot more overhead as far as space.

                This also means that when we "clamp" the color for a given system, CRT, DLP, etc etc, we can get truer colors even with an exposure adjustment. This also means that when someone leases a show perpetually, they'll get an option to have EXR masters vs PNG. If you upgrade your system at a later date, you'll have that extra color depth to work with.

                And personally... I think any blur, other than to add a glow effect, depth perception or hide a rendered defect, is a huge loss. Your eye doesn't receive blurred images unless its out of focus. Feed the eye closer and closer to reality, in my opinion.

                Very glad we built two new servers before the floods. Cannot imagine trying to build the necessary space now. 4k for 40 Tb... yes please!

                David Merrell
                Production Supervisor
                Clark Planetarium

                --- In fulldome@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Bradbury" <aaronb@...> wrote:

                Re: bit-depth... I completely agree. Here at NSC Creative we also use a linear workflow, usually with OpenEXR half-float (16bit). EXR's are also incredibly useful for storing additional G-buffer channels such as reflection, z-depth, material ID's etc. It is worth pointing out that these require much more storage space and can slow down rendering and compositing, so it's a good idea to test them out at production level before committing to using them on a big project.

                Aaron Bradbury
                CG Supervisor - NSC creative
                National Space Centre, Exploration Drive, Leicester, LE4 5NS, UK
                Tel: +44 (0) 116 2582151
                http://www.NSCcreative.com/
                aaronb@...
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