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Re: Suggestions for 4K video and photo camera

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  • Frederic Lilien
    Hello Jason, The 5k would be the Red Epic ( which I have not purchased yet...) with a Canon fisheye lens 8-15mm  The Canon 5D MarkII can do time lapse and
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 13, 2011
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      Hello Jason,
      The 5k would be the Red Epic ( which I have not purchased yet...) with a Canon fisheye lens 8-15mm  The Canon 5D MarkII can do time lapse and record video at 2K. I just don't know if 2k is sufficient enough? I'm wondering if anyone has tested both options in a fulldome screening?
      Frederic Lilien

      ________________________________
      From: Jason Fletcher <nuclearsugar@...>
      To: fulldome@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 9:24 PM
      Subject: [fulldome] Suggestions for 4K video and photo camera

      I would love to hear what 4k video camera equipment you are using. Having done a fair amount of research it seems that the Red camera is the only true option... and that is very expensive.

      Anyone willing to share instructions for a DIY hemi-cube camera?

      Also, what photography equipment and fisheye lenses are you using? We are looking at getting a setup for timelapse use. I would love to hear all the tech details you are willing to throw at me. Don't some of the highend DSLR's have a video record option?

      --
      Jason Fletcher
      Charles Hayden Planetarium
    • xgastudios
      Hey Jason, Right now the RED ONE camera is the camera to use for fulldome video. It will net you a pretty nice 2304x2304 dome master image. It is all about
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 14, 2011
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        Hey Jason,

        Right now the RED ONE camera is the camera to use for fulldome video. It will net you a pretty nice 2304x2304 dome master image. It is all about learning how to work with RED RAW, and how to process it for the dome. There is a new camera by RED called EPIC that is starting to hit the market. While it uses the same sensor as a MX'ed RED ONE, it will net you a 2700x2700 image. Almost as important as resolution is dynamic range, and the EPIC seems to have raised the bar there.

        Currently though, there are no PL mount circular fisheye lens that will get you a full circular fisheye image on the EPIC. Canon and Nikon mounts are still in the works (though I have heard a few Canon mounts are out there now). The S35 sensor in the R1 and EPIC are not full frame meaning that you are looking for a crop sensor lens - so no 8mm lens will work like it will on a Canon 5D MII which is a full frame still camera.

        There are other rigs out there that can capture partial or fulldome images, such as the ladybug (limited resolution and frame rate), Social Animal's S-9 (partial capture), and the Telemmersion System by Immersive Media (limited resolution), but none will capture fulldome images that can scale past a 1K system with out re-working the media to the point where images start to break down.

        Any DSLRs out there such as the Nikon D90 (which I use to preview RED shots) and the Canon 7D do have video record options, but again they are pretty limited for anything past a 1K system or using as tool to preview RED shots.

        Time lapse on the other hand can rival, if not surpass, what a R1 and EPIC can produce for the dome right now - especially if you shoot HDR sequences. You can put together a starter time lapse rig for a couple of grand and go from there. With time lapse, there are tons of choices out there. It all depends on your dome specs and if you plan on distributing content.

        Hope this helps a bit.

        Matt

        Dome3D
      • David Colagiovanni
        Hi Jason, I used the red for my last two planetarium works ( charting course for the unknown and my most recent that I am editing now). It is really
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 14, 2011
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          Hi Jason,

          I used the red for my last two planetarium works ('charting course for the unknown' and my most recent that I am editing now). It is really fantastic and yes expensive but if you had your production organized you could rent one for a somewhat reasonable price for a day or weekend. I've also experimented with a nikon Dslr with a sunpack fisheye lens. I'm not a huge fan of the fish eye because it has no way to focus/defocus and feel that the geometry doesn't quite translate to the dome.
          One of the things to consider is what resolution you want your finished dome master to be in. The red one can record 2000 x 4000 pixels (or a little higher with the more expensive model) and in still mode a high end nikon or cannon Dslr can record still images at about the same (perhaps a bit more). When recording in movie mode on Dslr the max resolution is 1080p.
          With my shows I usually want to end up with a resolution somewhere between 3000 x 3000 and 4000 x 4000. With a video that is 2000x4000 pixels you end up with a dome master that is 2000 pixels in diameter.
          So with red I still need to scale 200% to reach 4k x 4k which actually looks really crisp so long as things are always moving and the color/contrast are good. With both 1080p footage and red footage I tend to get experimental with compositing and that is really the best approach.
          A small resolution can be repeated/mirrored/composited etc and look as crisp and clean as anything else at 4k x 4k.

          Hope that helps and good luck!

          Cheers,
          David

          Http://www.colagiovanni.net
        • Tom Kwasnitschka
          Once more, on using the RED: We used the Nikon 6mm (the large and the small) on the RED and shot Touching the Edge of the Universe with the small one. In
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 15, 2011
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            Once more, on using the RED:
            We used the Nikon 6mm (the large and the small) on the RED and shot
            'Touching the Edge of the Universe' with the small one. In order to fit
            the sensor dimensions we made an adaptor that took away about 1.5 stops.
            Before you think about the right lens for the RED, determine if you will
            be shooting indoors or outdoors and check how fast your choice of lens
            really is. You will only ever get a problem indoors or at night, but not
            even underwater. The large 8mm that Tom Casey mentioned is indeed very
            nice and also the fastest lens around, but the newer series of it have a
            better coating than the older ones, so make sure...

            In light of everyones' love with tilted and unidirectional domes, we
            started working with the Coastal Optical 4.8mm lens and made a shift
            mount for the RED. That way we are just missing the rear 40° of the dome
            that no one ever looks at anyway. But that way you get 2.8k plus you do
            not have to worry about focussing - it does not have a focus ring. That
            comes very handy for steadycam work and wildlife shots, I just took it
            to Iceland.

            Cheers!
            Tom

            --
            Tom Kwasnitschka
            executive associate

            allsky.de
            t. kwasnitschka, w. ermgassen und ges. gbr
            am doerpsdiek 37
            24109 melsdorf / kiel
            germany

            fon +49 700 allskyde
            fax +49 4340 4192945
            mobile +49 172 8546025

            kwasnitschka@...
            www.allsky.de
          • khaledaboelnaga2000
            Can you send me more details about Coastal Optical 4.8mm lens and the shift mount for the RED as we can rent RED for the job but we have to buy the lens and
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 17, 2011
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              Can you send me more details about Coastal Optical 4.8mm lens and the shift mount for the RED as we can rent RED for the job but we have to buy the lens and the shift mount.

              We already have Ladybug 2 and Canon 5D MII with 8mm Sigma, but I think your solution would be much better.

              --- In fulldome@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kwasnitschka <tom.kwasnitschka@...> wrote:

              Once more, on using the RED:
              We used the Nikon 6mm (the large and the small) on the RED and shot
              'Touching the Edge of the Universe' with the small one. In order to fit
              the sensor dimensions we made an adaptor that took away about 1.5 stops.
              Before you think about the right lens for the RED, determine if you will
              be shooting indoors or outdoors and check how fast your choice of lens
              really is. You will only ever get a problem indoors or at night, but not
              even underwater. The large 8mm that Tom Casey mentioned is indeed very
              nice and also the fastest lens around, but the newer series of it have a
              better coating than the older ones, so make sure...

              In light of everyones' love with tilted and unidirectional domes, we
              started working with the Coastal Optical 4.8mm lens and made a shift
              mount for the RED. That way we are just missing the rear 40° of the dome
              that no one ever looks at anyway. But that way you get 2.8k plus you do
              not have to worry about focussing - it does not have a focus ring. That
              comes very handy for steadycam work and wildlife shots, I just took it
              to Iceland.

              Cheers!
              Tom

              --
              Tom Kwasnitschka
              executive associate

              allsky.de
              t. kwasnitschka, w. ermgassen und ges. gbr
              am doerpsdiek 37
              24109 melsdorf / kiel
              germany

              fon +49 700 allskyde
              fax +49 4340 4192945
              mobile +49 172 8546025

              kwasnitschka@...
              www.allsky.de
            • Jason Fletcher
              Everyone, Have you seen any explantion of how to create hemi-cube video camera rig? Here is the only documentation or record of hearing anything related to
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 19, 2011
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                Everyone,
                Have you seen any explantion of how to create hemi-cube video camera rig?
                Here is the only documentation or record of hearing anything related to this
                research.
                http://youtu.be/3-pYr_3MJsA?t=1m29s


                Theo,
                The question about DSLR video recording was just out of curosity. I
                understand that the needed resolution is too low. I didn't mean to suggest
                recording video for the dome, I was just interested in hearing about the
                quality of video for non-fulldome projects; such as textures for 3D objects
                or documentation of workflow.

                I am definitly aiming to shoot stills and comp them in post. I wasn't aware
                of the rolling shutter artifact, very interesting. Do you believe the DSLR
                cameras will catch up and offer 4k video in the future?


                Tom,
                Thanks for sharing your experience. You have been one of the few resources
                that I've found to experimented with the Red camera and share what it is
                like. Perhaps someday soon a full 4k vertical resoltuion will be reached.
                During my research I very much enjoyed the page you put up.
                http://www.homerunpictures.com/RED-Sigma-test/

                I've came the same concludion about the Ladybug camera. The resolution and
                FPS is simply too low for 4k dome use. Not to mention the forced use of a
                computer to record material; that could be a hinderance to certain shots.

                The paper you shared was an extrmely helpful foundation. Thanks for the
                fisheye lens rundown. Very helpful.


                Frederic,
                Indeed the new Red Epic is 5k, but unfortunately that is 5120 x 2700. So we
                are left cropping to 2700 x 2700. Which is no doubt better than the Red
                One.

                How does the Canon 5D MarkII look when recording video? I'm just curoius of
                the quality, unrelated to dome use.


                Matt,
                I understand that working with Red Raw can be difficult. The Red video card
                that is offered would no doubt be required for production use. It is
                interesting to hear that no 8mm lens will allow for full frame capture.


                David,
                Indeed, the best option getting experimental with your compsiting techniques
                to creatively repeat the footage at 100% scale. Here is one such music test
                I edited together. I did not create the original source material.
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikEycWUkHcQ

                I'm curious to hear more about your uprez to 4k from 2k original footage. I
                have looked into some uprez techniques to retain the crisp edges... but you
                will cannot generate the detail that comes with 4k. Did you just scale up or
                use one such plugin? I have not tested but researched the differences
                between: Genuine Fractals, Alien Skin Blow Up, PhotoZoom Pro, FixerLabs
                SizeFixerPro, FastStone, Boris FX Uprez,.


                Tom,
                Intriguing to hear that you made your own lens adaptor. Losing 1.5 stops is
                quite a hit considering the light loss form a fisheye lens already. But it
                would deifnitely work well for daylight shots.

                If I understand correctly, you now use the Coastal Optical 4.8mm lens with a
                custom shift mount. That enables you to capture more of the fisheye, while
                cropping out the rear 40°. But how did oyu test and create such a custom
                mount? Wow quite incredible.


                --
                Jason Fletcher
                Charles Hayden Planetarium


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tom Kwasnitschka
                Hi Jason! Since I have my own RED One I can do pretty much whatever I want with it, taking it underwater in the open ocean, holding it out of a driving car and
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 20, 2011
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                  Hi Jason!
                  Since I have my own RED One I can do pretty much whatever I want with
                  it, taking it underwater in the open ocean, holding it out of a driving
                  car and the like. :) Most of the time it is just lying around. The trick
                  with customizing adaptors is that the camera-chip distance for SLR
                  lenses (including almost all available fisheyes) is shorter than the
                  standard cinema PL mount. So it takes some skill to make adaptors since
                  there is not much room. Our adapters are made of two parts, a general
                  base plate attaches to the RED to protect it, and onto this we mount all
                  sorts of stuff. Mount the lens mount at an offset, and voila you have a
                  shift mount. If you need to enlarge or compress the image to other
                  sensor sizes, you need additional optics. Basically you reverse the job
                  of the fisheye lens instead of putting a sensor behind it, and recapture
                  the image with another lens, but this only works well using very high
                  quality components.

                  I now realize the EPIC is fulfilling the promise of RED ONE in terms of
                  specs and suitability for fulldome. But the RED ONE already creates
                  stunning underwater footage with lots of latitude. For my part, I am not
                  upgrading or crossgrading, I wait until things get even easier with the
                  RED 645 if it ever will be designed.

                  Cheers!
                  Tom
                • Jason Fletcher
                  Fascinating! Quite some finely tuned components you have rigged together. Thanks for sharing your experience. Brought back some ideas from when I worked in
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 20, 2011
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                    Fascinating! Quite some finely tuned components you have rigged together.

                    Thanks for sharing your experience. Brought back some ideas from when I
                    worked in film before my CGI days. The Red 645 would be very intriguing, but
                    I cannot imagine the data hog it would be.

                    Hope I get to see some of your underwater work sometime.

                    --
                    Jason Fletcher
                    Charles Hayden Planetarium

                    On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:56 AM, Tom Kwasnitschka <
                    tom.kwasnitschka@...> wrote:

                    Hi Jason!
                    Since I have my own RED One I can do pretty much whatever I want with
                    it, taking it underwater in the open ocean, holding it out of a driving
                    car and the like. :) Most of the time it is just lying around. The trick
                    with customizing adaptors is that the camera-chip distance for SLR
                    lenses (including almost all available fisheyes) is shorter than the
                    standard cinema PL mount. So it takes some skill to make adaptors since
                    there is not much room. Our adapters are made of two parts, a general
                    base plate attaches to the RED to protect it, and onto this we mount all
                    sorts of stuff. Mount the lens mount at an offset, and voila you have a
                    shift mount. If you need to enlarge or compress the image to other
                    sensor sizes, you need additional optics. Basically you reverse the job
                    of the fisheye lens instead of putting a sensor behind it, and recapture
                    the image with another lens, but this only works well using very high
                    quality components.

                    I now realize the EPIC is fulfilling the promise of RED ONE in terms of
                    specs and suitability for fulldome. But the RED ONE already creates
                    stunning underwater footage with lots of latitude. For my part, I am not
                    upgrading or crossgrading, I wait until things get even easier with the
                    RED 645 if it ever will be designed.

                    Cheers!
                    Tom
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