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Re: DomeFest

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  • Harfiyah@lamaan.com
    Hey David, Would an adaptation of 1001 inventions and the Library of Secrets for fulldome fit into your Science Storytellers category?
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 14, 2010
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      Hey David,

      Would an adaptation of 1001 inventions and the Library of Secrets for
      fulldome fit into your Science Storytellers category?

      http://www.1001inventions.com/media/video/library

      Harfiyah


      From: fulldome@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fulldome@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of david beining
      Sent: 13 July 2010 18:49
      To: fulldome@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [fulldome] DomeFest

      One thing I'm excited about is adding a second juried show to the program:
      The Science Storytellers. We want to invite the community to use their
      home-dome realtime systems (DigitalSky, Digistar, Uniview, etc) -- and only
      their realtime systems (no compositing or other techniques) to create
      innovative and inspiring short science stories based in astronomy or any
      other science. Like the more general reel, submissions will be limited to
      five minutes, juried by some hot shots, and have Domies awarded.
    • Pete Carss
      ... This is intriguing David - we ve been hatching a plan for a real-fest - a festival of realtime dome content. This is our primary activity at Plymouth.
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 15, 2010
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        > One thing I'm excited about is adding a second juried show to the program:
        > The Science Storytellers. We want to invite the community to use their
        > home-dome realtime systems (DigitalSky, Digistar, Uniview, etc) -- and only
        > their realtime systems (no compositing or other techniques) to create
        > innovative and inspiring short science stories based in astronomy or any
        > other science. Like the more general reel, submissions will be limited to
        > five minutes, juried by some hot shots, and have Domies awarded.

        This is intriguing David - we've been hatching a plan for a 'real-fest' - a
        festival of realtime dome content. This is our primary activity at Plymouth.
        I'm curious how you plan to manage the logistics of installing various live
        applications? We have applications written with OpenSceneGraph,
        BlenderGameEngine, Fluxus and Panda3D - and use CLAM for realtime
        spatialised audio - all of this is on Linux - do you have plans
        to accommodate this kind of content?


        Pete
      • david beining
        A quick reply to Harfiyah & Peter s queries on our DF11 plans for a Science Storytellers program: The intent of the program is to inspire domes to share -
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 16, 2010
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          A quick reply to Harfiyah & Peter's queries on our DF11 plans for a 'Science Storytellers' program:

          The intent of the program is to inspire domes to share - and inspire new - innovations in how they're using their realtime systems:  Creating/importing new data, models and other assets into the system; manipulating the software to do things the developers never thought of; to tell stories that we've not heard before.   

          The hope is the program extends our community's assets, techniques and libraries for realtime storytelling as well as pre-rendered show production.*    

          With that intent, the submissions to this reel will be limited to works created entirely in a fulldome realtime system.  The final script and assets will be rendered into image sequences and delivered and presented as pre-rendered shows/stories.

          We had discussed having a live 'shoot-out' where the stories would be presented live, just like in the home dome.  But the challenges of installing so many systems and managing all the assets for each submission seemed too daunting, and having presenters perform in an unfamiliar dome felt unfair.  And then there's the challenge of limiting the loquacious to five-minutes...  

          A big thanks to our old moderator, Ryan Wyatt, for helping me work through some of these ideas.

          So Harfiyah's question (and I'm traveling with limited net access so I have not yet seen any of your film), if the film was produced using traditional CG animation, then it should be submitted to the general reel.  If it was produced entirely in a realtime system (then rendered) it should be submitted to the 'science story' (needs another name?) reel.  

          How's this sounding to folks?  Ideas and comments greatly appreciated.

          d
        • Harfiyah@lamaan.com
          Ah! Now I KNOW I don t understand what is meant by realtime . I just looked up a wiki definition, but will someone please translate?!!! A real-time operating
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 16, 2010
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            Ah! Now I KNOW I don't understand what is meant by 'realtime'. I just
            looked up a wiki definition, but will someone please translate?!!!

            A real-time operating system (RTOS) is an operating
            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system> system (OS) intended for
            real-time <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing> applications.
            Such operating systems serve application requests nearly real-time. A
            real-time operating system offers programmers more control over process
            priorities. An application's process priority level may exceed that of a
            system process. Real-time operating systems minimize critical sections
            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_section> of system code, so that the
            application's interruption is nearly critical.

            A key characteristic of a real-time OS is the level of its consistency
            concerning the amount of time it takes to accept and complete an
            application's task; the variability is jitter. A hard real-time operating
            system has less jitter than a soft real-time operating system. The chief
            design goal is not high throughput <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throughput>
            , but rather a guarantee of a soft or hard
            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing#Hard_and_soft_real-time_sy
            stems> performance category. A real-time OS that can usually or generally
            meet a deadline is a soft real-time OS, but if it can meet a deadline
            deterministically it is a hard real-time OS.

            A real-time OS has an advanced algorithm for scheduling
            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheduling_(computing)> . Scheduler
            flexibility enables a wider, computer-system orchestration of process
            priorities, but a real-time OS is more frequently dedicated to a narrow set
            of applications. Key factors in a real-time OS are minimal interrupt
            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrupt_latency> latency and minimal thread
            switching latency <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_switching_latency> ,
            but a real-time OS is valued more for how quickly or how predictably it can
            respond than for the amount of work it can perform in a given period of
            time.

            This one makes more sense:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing

            Still not sure how it relates to fulldome shows though. Will someone please
            enlighten me?


            Harfiyah


            From: fulldome@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fulldome@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Pete Carss
            Sent: 15 July 2010 12:39
            To: fulldome@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [fulldome] Re: DomeFest

            > One thing I'm excited about is adding a second juried show to the program:
            > The Science Storytellers. We want to invite the community to use their
            > home-dome realtime systems (DigitalSky, Digistar, Uniview, etc) -- and
            > only their realtime systems (no compositing or other techniques) to create
            > innovative and inspiring short science stories based in astronomy or any
            > other science. Like the more general reel, submissions will be limited to
            > five minutes, juried by some hot shots, and have Domies awarded.

            This is intriguing David - we've been hatching a plan for a 'real-fest' - a
            festival of realtime dome content. This is our primary activity at Plymouth.
            I'm curious how you plan to manage the logistics of installing various live
            applications? We have applications written with OpenSceneGraph,
            BlenderGameEngine, Fluxus and Panda3D - and use CLAM for realtime
            spatialised audio - all of this is on Linux - do you have plans
            to accommodate this kind of content?

            Pete
          • Andy Dolph
            In this case the wiki s definition is not all that helpful. When we talk about realtime in the fulldome world, we are talking about content that is being
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 16, 2010
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              In this case the wiki's definition is not all that helpful.

              When we talk about "realtime" in the fulldome world, we are talking about
              content that is being rendered in realtime from some sort of dataset and
              instructions.

              These are the systems that are often used for live shows where, as a
              presenter, I have many options available to me in the system and when I
              press a button or move a slider (either physical or on a computer screen)
              the system is essentially creating the imagery being shown on the dome just
              a few milliseconds before it's actually visible to the audience.

              Now these "realtime" systems are also often used for preprogramed shows that
              use recored narration and prescripted visuals - so that an operator presses
              go, and the show runs without further intervention - but everything the
              audience sees is being rendered and composited by the system in "realtime,"
              in other words, as it's being shown.

              The other way of producing fulldome content is prerendered - IE when the
              operator hits play, the system is showing a sequential series of static
              frames of video, each of which fills the entire dome.

              Outside of the fulldome world this may seem like a
              rather arbitrary distinction, however there's a reason for it.

              Virtually every fulldome system can do fairly sophisticated "realtime"
              shows, produced with little more then the system itself, on the other hand
              prerendered shows are traditionally produced in 3d Studio Max, Maya, After
              Effects and so forth - requiring a skill set that many planetariums don't
              have on staff, and also often requiring a rather large render farm to
              compute the final frames.

              So I'm guessing that the goals of David and the other Domefest organizers is
              to create a second show that's based less on 3d production skill and more on
              encouraging people to explore the power of the systems they have in their
              domes.

              Does that help?

              I'll also be curious if others have different views on this issue....

              Andy

              On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Harfiyah@... <harfiyah@...>wrote:

              > Ah! Now I KNOW I don't understand what is meant by 'realtime'. I just
              > looked up a wiki definition, but will someone please translate?!!
            • Paul
              ... -- cut -- ... The references to realtime operating systems is not what is meant when referring to realtime in a fulldome sense. It is in the context of
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 17, 2010
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                > Ah! Now I KNOW I don't understand what is meant by 'realtime'. I just
                > looked up a wiki definition, but will someone please translate?!!!
                > A real-time operating system (RTOS) is an operating system (OS)

                -- cut --

                > Still not sure how it relates to fulldome shows though. Will someone please
                > enlighten me?

                The references to "realtime operating systems" is not what is meant when referring to "realtime" in a fulldome sense. It is in the context of "realtime" in computer graphics which is when the graphics presented have been generated a very short time before. "Very short" depends on the demands of the graphics and "short enough" on who you talk to but lets say 1/30 second for a 30 frame per second presentation. [Note that 60fps is generally considered important for most immersive and VR applications]. In the fulldome industry "realtime" it generally refers to content that is not a movie. Examples of realtime fulldome content might be
                - Stellarium (or any one of the other traditional astronomy packages).
                - A computer game being played in a dome.
                In general realtime content will be implemented on the GPU.
                A subset of realtime content is interactive content, where the graphics are created in realtime but in response to (generally) human input.
              • mario.dimaggio
                ... This is sounding BRILLIANT David! For a long time now, low-budget fulldome theatres such as ourselves have watched in envy as domes with big budgets and/or
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 17, 2010
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                  >>How's this sounding to folks? Ideas and comments greatly appreciated.

                  This is sounding BRILLIANT David! For a long time now, low-budget fulldome theatres such as ourselves have watched in envy as domes with big budgets and/or dedicated production teams had all the fun at DomeFest.

                  Thank you for finding a way to include us. We have already started thinking about what we want to do for 2011 with our Digistar 3 system :-)

                  All of the best with your research this year and enjoy your DomeFest break.


                  Thinktank Planetarium
                  www.facebook.com/ThinktankPlanet
                • Harfiyah@lamaan.com
                  Thanks, Paul and Andy, I think I understand a bit better now but, being an outsider in dome-operating terms, would probably need to see a demonstration of what
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 18, 2010
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                    Thanks, Paul and Andy,

                    I think I understand a bit better now but, being an outsider in
                    dome-operating terms, would probably need to see a demonstration of what the
                    systems can do themselves to understand more fully.

                    I do know about Stellarium though and, as I thought (see my previous post),
                    realtime does have an important interactive element. I've used
                    interactivity in designing an exhibition for children and on school visits
                    and know how well they respond to being able to interact with the materials
                    and people directly, unlike the TV, a lecture or a film. I'm sure adults
                    appreciate it too. I wanted to use Stellarium to pan round the opening pano
                    in Harvest of Souls (see www.angeldome.com) but couldn't figure out how to
                    switch seamlessly from Stellarium to the video itself. Also the panning
                    action in Stellarium was not very reliable (often sliding unpredictably up
                    or down to reveal the floor or ceiling), so I ended up morphing round the
                    fisheye pano Mario helped to make. If anyone has any suggestions on how to
                    do this, maybe I could include them in a remake, starting with the new
                    higher-def. photographs already taken.

                    At the BAP conference in Winchester we also had some online interaction with
                    people in other countries, which was interesting. The technology for this
                    seems to be improving and I look forward to doing more international
                    conferencing e.g. with www.TheClimateSummit.org , courtesy of Cisco Systems,
                    MIT et al. (see their first webcast online), this time including more people
                    from developing countries.

                    Incidentally, for the 'content' discussion, the interactivity of the
                    fulldome e-group is one of its most useful aspects, if not THE most useful.
                    No one knows everything, and in an international community of fairly
                    isolated people, the e-group is a good way of sharing knowledge and raising
                    everyone's game.

                    Many thanks again,

                    Harfiyah
                  • Christopher Hudson
                    Can I just echo Mario s thoughts - here at the Centre for Life in Newcastle we also produce a lot of in-house material using real-time Digistar. Most is in
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 18, 2010
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                      Can I just echo Mario's thoughts - here at the Centre for Life in Newcastle we also produce a lot of in-house material using real-time Digistar. Most is in the region of 20 minute shows, but it would be FUN to push the system to tell an effective 5 minute story.

                      Chris Hudson

                      Christopher Hudson

                      Public Engagement Technical Co-ordinator
                      Centre for Life
                      Management Suite
                      Times Square
                      Newcastle upon Tyne
                      NE1 4EP

                      Tel: +44 191 2438220
                      Fax: +44 191 2438201
                      Email: Christopher.Hudson@...

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                      ________________________________
                      From: fulldome@yahoogroups.com [fulldome@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mario.dimaggio [mario@...]
                      Sent: 17 July 2010 18:30
                      To: fulldome@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [fulldome] Re: DomeFest

                      >>How's this sounding to folks? Ideas and comments greatly appreciated.

                      This is sounding BRILLIANT David! For a long time now, low-budget fulldome theatres such as ourselves have watched in envy as domes with big budgets and/or dedicated production teams had all the fun at DomeFest.

                      Thank you for finding a way to include us. We have already started thinking about what we want to do for 2011 with our Digistar 3 system :-)

                      All of the best with your research this year and enjoy your DomeFest break.

                      Thinktank Planetarium
                      www.facebook.com/ThinktankPlanet


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