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Full dome and stereoscopy

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  • Pol
    I was wondering if there s any stereoscopy (3D projection) on fulldomes. Of course it s not possible with polarized lenses, because when the audience turn
    Message 1 of 13 , May 1, 2007
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      I was wondering if there's any stereoscopy (3D projection) on fulldomes.
      Of course it's not possible with polarized lenses, because when the
      audience turn their head to see the top or the rear of the screen, the
      polarizing filters won't work.

      But how about with lenses with sync shutters? have anybody made any test
      with stereoscopy and domes?

      There's any planetarium/theme park/whatever installation similar to this?


      Pol Turrents
      Hd Dop
      www.digitea.es
    • Rich Brown
      ... Domefest is promoting a demo of this technology (on July 20th). See: http://domefest.org/
      Message 2 of 13 , May 1, 2007
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        > I was wondering if there's any stereoscopy (3D projection) on fulldomes.

        Domefest is promoting a demo of this technology (on July 20th). See:
        http://domefest.org/
      • Steven dosRemedios
        I believe SkySkan is demonstrating this technology now. Steven DosRemedios Technology Manager Illumination Telephone: 510-336-7313 Mobile: 510-301-2510 Email:
        Message 3 of 13 , May 1, 2007
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          I believe SkySkan is demonstrating this technology now.


          Steven DosRemedios
          Technology Manager Illumination

          Telephone: 510-336-7313
          Mobile: 510-301-2510

          Email: SdosRemedios@...
          My Blog: http://sdosremedios.blogspot.com/

          Chabot Space & Science Center
          10000 Skyline Blvd
          Oakland, CA 94619
          http://www.chabotspace.org/
        • id
          We (http://www.elumenati.com) have given a number of demos with Micoy (http://www.micoy.com) in the past couple of years of radial stereo (the stereo image is
          Message 4 of 13 , May 1, 2007
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            We (http://www.elumenati.com) have given a number of demos with Micoy
            (http://www.micoy.com) in the past couple of years of radial stereo (the
            stereo image is maintained regardless of viewer orientation/tilt) from a
            single channel portable system.

            SEOS has shown some systems recently as well - Martin?

            cheers,
            david
          • Pol
            ... Domefest is promoting a demo of this technology (on July 20th). See: http://domefest.org/ I just read this on the website: A total of four projectors will
            Message 5 of 13 , May 1, 2007
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              > I was wondering if there's any stereoscopy (3D projection) on fulldomes.

              Domefest is promoting a demo of this technology (on July 20th). See:
              http://domefest.org/

              I just read this on the website:

              "A total of four projectors will transform the LodeStar dome into the
              first-ever definitiT 3D theater in the Western Hemisphere"

              So.. Does anybody know which one is the easter hemisfere theatre that shows
              3d fulldome?

              I know that a fulldome system in 3D (Stereo glasses) will be very difficult,
              but I've done some Works on stereography, and I really like the idea of
              combining fulldome and stereography.

              In other hand I will love to attend to the domefest, seems really
              interesting.

              Pol Turrents
              Hd Dop
              www.digitea.es
            • Paul Bourke
              ... There are a number of possible techniques/technologies, the main ones are listed below roughly in order of increased quality, perhaps there are others. 1.
              Message 6 of 13 , May 1, 2007
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                > I was wondering if there's any stereoscopy (3D projection) on fulldomes.

                There are a number of possible techniques/technologies, the main ones
                are listed below roughly in order of increased quality, perhaps there
                are others.

                1. Anaglyph ... sure doesn't really count these days as stereo. Free
                viewing at least, poor colour and overall a less than convincing result.

                2. Croma-depth, like anaglyph only included here for completeness. But
                this has been used a bit in domes over the years.

                3. Polaroid. You made the point about head tilt and linear polaroid but
                circular polaroid gets around this. The main problem with this is the
                dome needs to preserve polarisation on reflection which is normally a
                high gain screen, exacty what you don't want in a dome.

                4. Z-screen style (circular) polarised systems. Havne't heard of any of
                these for dome although it is popular for flat screen theatres, and the
                technology ownership has recently changed hands. It suffers from the
                same surface issues as (3).

                5. Frame sequential, also called quad buffer stereo with shutter
                glasses. Used to be limited to the domain of CRT but there are some DLP
                projectors around with suitable refresh rates. This is still probably
                the "easiest" way to do good stereo in a dome, no special surface
                required.

                6. Infitec, this is the new boy on the block although the technology has
                been around for at least 10 years, used inhouse at Crysler I believe.
                The recent advances in full dome stereo have been based upon this. The
                Infitec system has the huge benefit that there is essentially zero
                ghosting. The downside is that it is difficult to get good colour
                especially in the greys. The glasses also are not cheap and even the
                ones out there could do with some improvement .... at least the ones
                I've seen. A number of projector manufacturers (eg: Projection Design)
                will build the filters into the projectors. No special dome surface
                required.

                7. The future sees a number of people working on autostereoscopic
                displays. While these have been around for a number of years as small
                low resolution panels, there is work being done on larger systems. I
                have only heard of these for flat displays at the moment.

                Missed any?
              • Martin Howe
                Paul Bourke wrote a good summary of the pros and cons of Stereoscopic domes. We believe that we have installed the World s first Fulldome stereoscopic Dome at
                Message 7 of 13 , May 2, 2007
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                  Paul Bourke wrote a good summary of the pros and cons of Stereoscopic
                  domes.

                  We believe that we have installed the World's first Fulldome
                  stereoscopic Dome at the Foundation of the Hellenic World in Athens, a
                  130 seat tilted Dome (I've mentioned this before and am waiting for the
                  claim to be contested)

                  This uses the Infitec technology primarily because it can accommodate
                  head rotation (a natural phenomenon in a Dome) without loosing eye
                  separation and can work with the necessary lower gain screens. However
                  whilst the technology accommodates head rotation without changing the
                  information to each eye, it does not (nor cannot) deal with the issue
                  that head rotation in itself changes the eye separation from what the
                  producer intended, through to no separation (eye plane perpendicular to
                  plane of separation) up to inverted stereo (where the audience look
                  behind them and what was once left is now right - try it on a swivel
                  chair looking at the ceiling).

                  So additional techniques need to be employed to mitigate this effect
                  which range from theatre and display configuration through to
                  considerate use of content. We had a theory, tested it and bid a
                  solution. We were the only vendor to propose a Fulldome stereo solution
                  at the time (we started the process back in 2005) and I was pleased and
                  relieved to see it in action for the first time earlier this year. It's
                  bright, colorful and amazingly tolerant of head rotation. With the right
                  content (which not coincidentally is always the determining factor to
                  any experience) it's an amazing immersive experience.

                  Next step...

                  Same thing but without the glasses, they do 'get in the way' of the
                  experience.

                  Martin

                  Martin Howe
                  Vice President, Visualization
                  SEOS Ltd
                  tel: +44 (0) 1444 870 888
                  mob +44 (0) 7793 414 553
                  www.seos.com

                  SEOS Limited, Registered in England, Number: 01726000, VAT Number: GB 699195952.

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                • georgemavrikos
                  Hi Skyskan already for sure demonstrates this technology! We had here in athens in eugenides Foundation Planetarium a demo for 2 days. And Seos has already
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 2, 2007
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                    Hi

                    Skyskan already for sure demonstrates this technology!

                    We had here in athens in eugenides Foundation Planetarium a demo for
                    2 days.

                    And Seos has already made an installation In Athens in the Hellenic
                    world.. martin can give more details..
                  • Ed Lantz
                    Barco also has some fulldome stereoscopic installations, including La Geode in Paris: http://www.barco.com/entertainment/en/pressreleases/show.asp?index=1899
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 2, 2007
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                      Barco also has some fulldome stereoscopic installations, including La Geode
                      in Paris:

                      http://www.barco.com/entertainment/en/pressreleases/show.asp?index=1899

                      Ed
                      ed@...
                    • Martin Howe
                      Ed Wrote Barco also has some fulldome stereoscopic installations, including La Geode in Paris Whilst I won t comment on that specifically, or other
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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                        Ed Wrote

                        "Barco also has some fulldome stereoscopic installations, including La Geode in Paris"

                        Whilst I won't comment on that specifically, or other installations, I do believe that it would be helpful to this community to be clear about what we mean by the "Full" part of Fulldome. It's one thing to show a stereoscopic image (or images) in a Dome theatre, Fulldome stereo might be quite a different matter!.


                        Martin

                        Martin Howe
                        SEOS Ltd


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                      • Paul Bourke
                        ... The usual technique is to simply use offset fisheye cameras, as pointed out this is only strictly correct if the observer looks in the direction expected
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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                          > However whilst the technology accommodates head rotation without changing the
                          > information to each eye, it does not (nor cannot) deal with the issue
                          > that head rotation in itself changes the eye separation from what the
                          > producer intended, through to no separation (eye plane perpendicular to
                          > plane of separation) up to inverted stereo (where the audience look
                          > behind them and what was once left is now right - try it on a swivel
                          > chair looking at the ceiling).
                          > So additional techniques need to be employed to mitigate this effect

                          The usual technique is to simply use offset fisheye cameras, as pointed
                          out this is only strictly correct if the observer looks in the direction
                          expected by the producer. It works well for single person domes, even
                          better with head tracking and realtime content. As pointed out above
                          this doesn't work for all view directions, for example, if one looks to
                          the left or right then there is a point where there is no parallax ...
                          let alone the swapped parallax if you look behind.

                          However there are other solutions that can cope with multiple view
                          directions and indeed can cope with an audience looking in different
                          directions. This has been well known for some time in cylindrical
                          stereoscopic environments such as this
                          http://icinema.unsw.edu.au/projects/infra_avie.html
                          one creates stereo panoramic pairs
                          http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/papers/vsmm2006/
                          multiple people can view these in a single environment and each
                          gets a (almost) correct stereo pair.

                          This technique can be expanded to two dimensions for a a dome
                          environment, although potentially at a high rendering cost due to the
                          non existant support by current commercial packages.
                        • Martin Howe
                          Paul Borke wrote The usual technique is to simply use offset fisheye cameras, as pointed out this is only strictly correct if the observer looks in the
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 3, 2007
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                            Paul Borke wrote
                            "The usual technique is to simply use offset fisheye cameras, as pointed
                            out this is only strictly correct if the observer looks in the direction
                            expected by the producer. It works well for single person domes, even
                            better with head tracking and realtime content. As pointed out above
                            this doesn't work for all view directions, for example, if one looks to
                            the left or right then there is a point where there is no parallax ...
                            let alone the swapped parallax if you look behind."

                            "However there are other solutions that can cope with multiple view
                            directions and indeed can cope with an audience looking in different
                            directions. This has been well known for some time in cylindrical
                            stereoscopic environments such as this
                            http://icinema.unsw.edu.au/projects/infra_avie.html
                            one creates stereo panoramic pairs
                            http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/papers/vsmm2006/
                            multiple people can view these in a single environment and each
                            gets a (almost) correct stereo pair."

                            There may be two subject matters here. One is the capture of stereo
                            which Paul describes eloquently in his vsmm2006 paper. The other though
                            is the issue where viewers in a dome, in particular a forward facing
                            tilted dome, will almost certainly rotate their heads in a plane
                            different to the one/s (!) of the left and right eye separation of the
                            image. As this occurs the interoccular distance varies and at certain
                            points diminishes to zero and even inverts (even though the content on
                            the screen still has a valid laft and right separation).

                            Paul rightly points out that it is much easier for a single viewer dome
                            (no such luxury in most Fulldome theatres). I was fortunate to be
                            discussing this point with D'narco Collucci of Elumenati over dinner
                            just recently. He argued that the perfect stereo system is a single
                            person headtracked dome without separated left and right eye content -
                            and I agree with him!. No glasses, natural interaction and natural
                            relative motion of the synthetic environment.

                            Martin

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                          • Martin Howe
                            Apologies to D nardo Colucci... ...and to the rest of you for the other typos!. Replying to Fulldome at 1:30AM is not conducive to correct spelling! Ah, the
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 4, 2007
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                              Apologies to D'nardo Colucci...

                              ...and to the rest of you for the other typos!.

                              Replying to Fulldome at 1:30AM is not conducive to correct spelling! Ah,
                              the life of a Fulldomer.

                              D'nardo can be reached at...

                              http://www.elumenati.com/about/index.html


                              Martin

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