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update on red one / 6mm fisheye

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  • Tom Kwasnitschka
    For the last two years we have been investigating live capture. First of all, as David mentioned, we developed the use of the Nikon 6mm optics (220° field of
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 14, 2007
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      For the last two years we have been investigating live capture. First of
      all, as David mentioned, we developed the use of the Nikon 6mm optics
      (220° field of view) through adaptation of the lenses to various image
      formats, also leading to some of the work that the Hamburg Planetarium
      features in their adaptation of “The Future is Wild”. (We entertain a
      prolific cooperation with Tim…)

      Naturally, I am a red reservation holder, too. Just as we have done with
      our time lapse library, we are planning to create a library of fulldome
      and planetarium relevant clips so that the genre will be accessible to
      small scale productions as well.

      I encourage you to read the excellent paper by Ka Chun Yu in the current
      issue of the Planetarian, as it pretty much reflects on all the insights
      that we were able to gain in parallel to the DMNS team. Reading their
      conclusions, I would say that the red camera per se will offer great
      opportunities for tilted domes the way Ka Chun Yu et al. describe it.

      At allsky.de we take a different approach with our 6mm lenses, and I
      wrote a small article on that for the IPS conference proceedings (Where
      have they gone, anyway?! For everyone interested, you can download the
      paper and others at ftp.allsky.de\documents
      <ftp://ftp.allsky.de/documents> ). While it is true that you want to
      use as much pixels as possible, leading to full frame designs and heavy
      post production efforts, I am more concerned about developing a proper
      filming language early on, and that means that I prefer the flat setup
      with a fully circular image over a cropped/tilted design as it too
      strongly reflects traditional cinematic viewing habits. The flat 220°
      setup still allows for cropping into tilted setup, but the visual
      language is fundamentally different when you start composing your scene.
      From the point of a businessman, I can also serve more customers with
      this approach.

      Technically that only leaves the small width of the Red chip for proper
      use, but I count on the advances in technology. For the time being,
      single lens multi camera arrays would be my suggestion (any other Red
      owners willing to go for an experiment?!) Everyone willing to go the
      same route, be reminded that the digital camera chips generally have a
      super 35, i.e. a movie format, which is considerably smaller than the
      SLR/VistaVision format that most of the splendid fisheyes of the past
      were designed for (The 6mm lenses we use create a circle of 21.5 and 24
      mm, I believe – frame by frame film transport of a movie film strip is
      no more than 19mm.)

      This is the reason why we adapted the 6mm lens for the smaller width of
      the anamorphic movie format (16.5mm Diameter), SLR format (21,5mm
      Diameter) up to digital medium format (about 36mm diameter). For the
      sake of greater resolution and increased creative freedom, we accept a
      loss in brilliance and luminosity in the images – at least, for the time
      being.



      --
      Tom Kwasnitschka
      research and development div.
      kwasnitschka@...
      cell +49 (172) 8546025
      http://www.allsky.de
    • Tom Casey
      There is also the Phantom 65 camera which is a lot more expensive... with solid state recording modules that attach to the camera...
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 14, 2007
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        There is also the Phantom 65 camera which is a lot more expensive...
        with solid state recording modules that attach to the camera...

        http://www.visionresearch.com/index.cfm?sector=htm/files&page=camera_65_new

        [Moderator's note: I made a TinyURL for the above, just in case your
        email program screws it up. Try http://tinyurl.com/294bf3 if the
        longer link fails. --Ryan]

        Tom

        ************************************************
        H o m e R u n P i c t u r e s

        Tom Casey
        President & Creative Director

        100 First Avenue - Suite 450
        Pittsburgh, PA 15222
        412-391-8200
        mailto:tom@...
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      • Pete Carss
        I ve been lurking on this list for a while... I thought it worth mentioning that Silicon Imaging (http:// www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/) have started
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 14, 2007
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          I've been lurking on this list for a while...

          I thought it worth mentioning that Silicon Imaging (http://
          www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/) have started shipping their SI
          2K and SI 2K Mini cameras. For those of you who aren't pixel
          fetishists, they might provide a route to compelling content. I have
          been in contact with the engineers, and a fujinon 185º lens will fit
          the body either in fulldome or 135º mode (with modification). The
          attraction for smaller fulldome-shops is the price: $6500 for the
          Mini....

          Pete Carss


          Pete Carss - Research Assistant, Immersive Vision
          [ i ][>][...] - Institute of Digital Art and Technology
          CETL (Centre for Excellence in Teaching & Learning)
          Experiential Learning in Environmental & Natural Sciences
          University of Plymouth, Drake Circus, Plymouth, PL4 8AA, Devon, UK
        • Martin Howe
          Interesting discussion regarding capture and display of 4k x 4k images, but how many systems out there can truly deliver that resolution (bandwidth) without
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 14, 2007
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            Interesting discussion regarding capture and display of 4k x 4k images, but how many systems out there can truly deliver that resolution (bandwidth) without pixel compression? (what's the point if they're all squashed up in between capture and screen?).

            Would be nice to see more than only 16 million colours too!

            ;-)

            Martin

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          • Pol
            ... well... being an electronic system, doesn t have film grain, but have electronical noise. We have to see how is this noise, but in the first tests, seems
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 14, 2007
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              At 03:34 14/04/2007, you wrote:
              >Actually, 2540x2450 will not be too bad... It will interpolate up to
              >4000x4000 fairly well assuming the image is crisp to start with.

              well... being an electronic system, doesn't have film grain, but have
              electronical noise. We have to see how is this noise, but in the first
              tests, seems less present than any film grain.

              I think that there's another problem, the camera is designed for a 16:9
              use, so, the lens are located to fill a rectangular frame, not a square one.

              And talking about 4k digital cameras, there are other options in the market:

              -Dalsa (http://www.dalsa.com/dc/), already in the market since a year ago,
              and a resolution of 4096 x 2048.

              -Kinor (http://www.kinor.ru/products/camera/dc4k/), a russian project of a
              4k camera. it's focused for widescreen shooting (4040x1720)
              besides that, this year are also coming several 2k cameras
              (http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/SI_2K_full_specifications.html)
              (http://www.gsvitec.com/products/digital_cine_camera_nox.htm)

              thank you for the other advice, and the welcome!


              Pol Turrents
              www.digitea.es
            • ed@visualbandwidth.com
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 14, 2007
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                <Interesting discussion regarding capture and display of 4k x 4k images, but how many systems out there can truly deliver that resolution (bandwidth) without pixel compression? (what's the point if they're all squashed up in between capture and screen?).

                Would be nice to see more than only 16 million colours too!>

                Technically this is all do-able today, assuming the investment could be justified. Problem is, after developing a $12M 4kx4k digital camera, before sales recouped your losses an inexpensive commodity solution would probably come along in a few years and steal the show. It is getting increasingly difficult to be an "IMAX," even for Imax Corp.

                As mentioned, a dual-camera, dual lens solution has serious issues including parallax, however it is an off-the-shelf solution. Aside from IMAX & fulldome, military, astronomy, and a small number of high-end machine vision applications, there are few drivers for a 4kx4k camera... And only IMAX and fulldome want a cinema camera. Less than a dozen such cameras would be enough to satisfy all the world's productions. Not a very robust business model by itself...

                Ed
              • Rich Brown
                ... Maybe. Look at the 1500-unit backorder list for Red One.
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 14, 2007
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                  ed@... wrote:

                  > Less than a dozen such
                  > cameras would be enough to satisfy all the world's productions. Not a
                  > very robust business model by itself...

                  Maybe. Look at the 1500-unit backorder list for Red One.
                • ed@visualbandwidth.com
                  ... RED has targeted contemporary digital filmmakers and HD productions - a strong market. The number of IMAX and fulldome cinema productions underway
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 14, 2007
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                    > > Less than a dozen such
                    >> cameras would be enough to satisfy all the world's productions. Not a
                    > > very robust business model by itself...

                    > Maybe. Look at the 1500-unit backorder list for Red One.

                    RED has targeted contemporary digital filmmakers and HD productions - a strong market. The number of IMAX and fulldome cinema productions underway worldwide at any one time is probably less than a dozen. There is not a commodity market to drive 4kx4k res.

                    Ed
                  • Pol
                    ... Well... there s another company releasing a 4K camera: Kinor it s russian (www.kinor.ru) and they claim in their website for a 8k camera coming before
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 15, 2007
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                      At 03:47 15/04/2007, you wrote:
                      >RED has targeted contemporary digital filmmakers and HD productions - a
                      >strong market. The number of IMAX and fulldome cinema productions underway
                      >worldwide at any one time is probably less than a dozen. There is not a
                      >commodity market to drive 4kx4k res.

                      Well... there's another company releasing a 4K camera: Kinor
                      it's russian (www.kinor.ru) and they claim in their website for a 8k camera
                      coming before 2012, and that will be OK for a 4kx4k resolution...
                      meanwhile we can make tests with red 4k camera... 2k should be good enough
                      for a medium size dome...


                      Pol Turrents
                      www.digitea.es
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