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  • KDConod
    ... Hmmm...you must be looking at a different list. I see 8 non-astronomy programs out of 38 listed on that page... Kevin Conod kdconod@yahoo.com
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 2, 2006
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      >Looking at most of the shows at
      >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fulldome#Fulldome_applications

      >they are definitely not about the night sky.

      Hmmm...you must be looking at a different list. I
      see 8 non-astronomy programs out of 38 listed on
      that page...

      Kevin Conod
      kdconod@...
    • david mcconville
      Kevin, ... Though I haven t seen all of the movies list on Wikipedia, I only see a handful that might be solely about the Earth-based night sky views. The
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 2, 2006
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        Kevin,

        Back to my original statement for clarification:

        > The editors at Wikipedia define it as "a theater built for presenting
        > shows about astronomy and the night sky."

        Though I haven't seen all of the movies list on Wikipedia, I only see a
        handful that might be solely about the Earth-based night sky views. The
        updated Wikipedia entry includes "astronomy" in addition to "the night
        sky", and many shows are of course about astronomy since many fulldome
        video systems are in planetarium facilities. And it seems that astronomy
        visualizations beyond the night sky is the primary motivation for
        planetariums to go digital.

        However, when you include the real-time applications (especially flight
        simulators) and art installations, not to mention the many non-listed
        movies and applications for real-time gaming, marketing, etc, there are
        many, many non-astronomical fulldome video systems. Not nitpicking here,
        just pointing out that fulldome video is used for a diverse range of
        applications, many of which may be overlooked if only viewed through the
        planetarium lens.

        Then again, if you argue that anything that can be visualized exists in the
        Universe so it's all the domain of "astronomy" and that only including
        things outside of the Earth's atmosphere in the definition of astronomy is
        an arbitrary distinction, I'd have a hard time debating that. So I can
        agree that every fulldome theater is a planetarium if we can all agree that
        all science and art is astronomy ;)

        cheers,
        david

        --------------------------
        david mcconville
        http://www.elumenati.com
        612.605.0826 x5
        ----------
      • KDConod
        ... But I don t think there are many planetarians that would define a planetarium so narrowly. ... Point taken, I don t think anyone will dispute that, but I
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 5, 2006
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          > The editors at Wikipedia define it as "a
          > theater built for presenting shows about
          > astronomy and the night sky."

          But I don't think there are many planetarians
          that would define a planetarium so narrowly.

          > However, when you include the real-time
          > applications (especially flight simulators) and
          > art installations, not to mention the many
          > non-listed movies and applications for real-time
          > gaming, marketing, etc, there are many, many
          > non-astronomical fulldome video systems. Not
          > nitpicking here, just pointing out that fulldome
          > video is used for a diverse range of
          > applications, many of which may be overlooked if
          > only viewed through the planetarium lens.

          Point taken, I don't think anyone will dispute
          that, but I think Ryan's point was that
          planetariums currently make up the lion's share
          of domed theaters.

          For example - I live near New York City, one of
          the biggest entertainment centers in the world.
          How many non-astro domes are there here? Aside
          from the Imax Domes in Jersey City and Long
          Island, I really can't think of any....


          Kevin Conod
          kdconod@...
        • Mark C. Petersen
          ... presenting shows about astronomy and the night sky. With regards to the editors at Wikipedia : in the words of Walt Kelly s Pogo: We have met the
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 5, 2006
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            --- In fulldome@yahoogroups.com, david mcconville <id@...> wrote:

            >> The editors at Wikipedia define it as "a theater built for
            presenting shows about astronomy and the night sky."

            With regards to "the editors at Wikipedia": in the words of Walt
            Kelly's Pogo: "We have met the enemy... and he is us." :-)

            > However, when you include the real-time applications (especially flight
            > simulators) and art installations, not to mention the many non-listed
            > movies and applications for real-time gaming, marketing, etc, there are
            > many, many non-astronomical fulldome video systems.

            The same thing I told Rob Spearman earlier... there may be fulldome
            *systems* out there, but that doesn't make them *theaters* by default.
            Is a flight simulator or gaming application a theater? Don't think
            so. Perhaps you can characterize a theater by its accomodations for
            an audience.

            >> Mark
          • Ryan Wyatt
            ... Actually, there s also the dome at Madame Tussaud s, which runs a 3-D tour of Manhattan (with an incorrectly-oriented Empire State Building, as I recall).
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 5, 2006
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              > I live near New York City, one of the biggest entertainment centers
              > in the world. How many non-astro domes are there here?

              Actually, there's also the dome at Madame Tussaud's, which runs a 3-D
              tour of Manhattan (with an incorrectly-oriented Empire State
              Building, as I recall).

              Temporary fulldome installations have also taken place around the
              City, and I know for sure there are more to come, featuring (with any
              luck) a broad range of content, science and art inclusive. And I
              believe David McConville will have a dome set up for a trade show
              next week at Javits Center...

              But your main point (especially since it echoes mine) still stands:
              most fulldome video installations are inside planetariums.


              Ryan, a.k.a.
              Ryan Wyatt, Science Visualizer
              Rose Center for Earth & Space
              American Museum of Natural History
              79th Street at Central Park West
              New York, NY 10024
            • david mcconville
              ... I m not up there, but off the top of my head there s Madame Tussaud s New York New York , the Molecularium at the Junior Museum in Troy, AMNH showing
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 5, 2006
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                At 11:12 AM 10/5/2006, KDConod wrote:
                >For example - I live near New York City, one of
                >the biggest entertainment centers in the world.
                >How many non-astro domes are there here? Aside
                >from the Imax Domes in Jersey City and Long
                >Island, I really can't think of any....

                I'm not up there, but off the top of my head there's Madame Tussaud's "New
                York New York", the Molecularium at the Junior Museum in Troy, AMNH showing
                Sonic Vision, and there have been many temporary domes setup for live
                performance over the years - I just got back from a performance with
                Domeworks in the parking lot of the Schenectady Museum two nights ago
                -http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=522169&category=REGION&newsdate=10/3/2006
                - While a few hundred feet away a new Goto starball was being installed in
                the Suits-Bueche Planetarium. Ah, the joys of peaceful co-existence in a
                moving-picture scenario of nonsimultaneous and only partially overlapping
                events

                I've never disputed that majority of public digital fulldome theaters (as
                opposed to "systems") have been installed with astronomical visualization
                and education in mind. I'm just stressing the fact that they are rapidly
                evolving into other arenas so this dialogue is necessary if the IPS wants
                to engage in a dialogue with a broader production & scientific community
                beyond astronomy. I find this to be a very encouraging trend, just one that
                seems to be turning the "planetarium" into a temporary state of being.

                And thanks to Mike Murray et al for the thoughtful post about the ongoing
                need for collaboration between a broad range of producers, artists,
                scientists, educators, and organizations. Much more important than the
                semantics of the term planetarium, this is the central issue to the
                successful evolution of the medium...

                david


                --------------------------
                david mcconville
                http://www.elumenati.com
                612.605.0826 x5
              • Raymond Worthy
                To all you fulldome people, Some of you will know me but most will not. I make mobile domes, both positive pressure and negative pressure and trade under the
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 5, 2006
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                  To all you fulldome people,

                  Some of you will know me but most will not. I make mobile domes, both
                  positive pressure and negative pressure and trade under the name of
                  "Stargazer Planetariums" in the UK.

                  Ever since Fulldome started, I have been lurking, never taking part but
                  reading most of what you have been discussing.

                  Lately, the curse of finance has reared its ugly head. Some of you are
                  bemoaning the fact that you have not reached the status of what Imax
                  once was or Hollywood productions can be.

                  --------------------------------------------

                  Something happened this afternoon which has caused me to come out from
                  underneath my shell; something which I want to share with you.

                  As you all know, there are some global companies so great that their
                  budgets outshine those of some countries. To them, money is no object.

                  The management of a company such as these do not approach people like us
                  directly; they use intermediaries; agents. This happened to my little
                  business a year or two back when I was approached by such an
                  intermediary to make a dome to with a cover on it, to tour the shopping
                  malls and advertise a new " Nivea" night cream product. ( The result
                  can be seen on my web site.)

                  I was approached by an agent for another company to whom "Money is no
                  object".

                  It seems that somebody in the upper echelons of this company had vaguely
                  heard that mobile domes exist and that they can be used with something
                  the boffins call a projector and that magically, their advertising
                  production would appear on the all round screen . The marvel was that
                  this can be taken around various trade fairs and erected as and when
                  they wanted it.

                  With this in mind, they then contacted their presentation agent, who
                  then contacted me.

                  The agent and the principle were quite in ignorance on the subject of
                  how this miracle was to become fact. The idea was that they would have
                  the finished article by sometime in November, a lead time of seven
                  weeks. I am sorry to say that I had to disabuse them of that notion.

                  When I explained that I would need to know what projector they intended
                  to use, I found that their answer was something like, "What do you mean
                  - projector ?"

                  So, the situation is this; there are some people to whom money is no
                  object ( Take that with a pinch of salt ; they usually want blood ), but
                  who are blissfully ignorant of what is possible.

                  I sent some pictures of Tom's sinking Titanic and fighting dinosaurs
                  etc. and explained that if you people can do this, then anything is
                  possible.

                  The man who approached me is quite looking forward to getting an
                  education in this field which is new to him ( and many others.) and yet
                  it should be his business to be abreast of such developments.

                  If you do contact him, remember to keep the jargon down. He needs a
                  simple explanation of what the software and the present day projections
                  can do.

                  His name is Nick Shaw and he is the Account Director of a company called
                  Creative Realisation which somewhere in Cheshire County in England.

                  nick@...

                  --------------------------------------------

                  The point I am making here is that this is but one company doing this
                  kind of work. There must be many hundreds of others, especially in the
                  States. You may be existing in your own little coterie or cell and these
                  advertising folks are living in theirs. If you are looking for funding ,
                  surely it behoves someone in your group to find out and make a list of
                  this type of agent and do some positive approaching , building some
                  bridges to explain to them what this new industry is capable of. It may
                  be that you are inhabiting an ivory tower without realising it.

                  I remember Tom Casey himself telling you all that if you do not make a
                  sale you are out of business. It may be that , in the future, your
                  astronomical products may exist purely as a luxury.

                  I shall stop there. I have said enough.

                  Best wishes to you all.

                  Ray Worthy.
                • KDConod
                  ... I thought that was a flat-screen theater - is it really a dome? Kevin Conod kdconod@yahoo.com
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 5, 2006
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                    > Actually, there's also the dome at Madame
                    > Tussaud's, which runs a 3-D tour of Manhattan
                    > (with an incorrectly-oriented Empire State
                    > Building, as I recall).

                    I thought that was a flat-screen theater - is it
                    really a dome?


                    Kevin Conod
                    kdconod@...
                  • KDConod
                    ... I hadn t considered those....Troy and Schenectady are 2.5+ hours away from here so I don t really consider them in the NYC area. :-) I agree with Mike s
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 5, 2006
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                      > I'm not up there, but off the top of my head
                      > there's Madame Tussaud's "New York New York",
                      > the Molecularium at the Junior Museum in Troy,
                      > AMNH showing Sonic Vision, and there have been
                      > many temporary domes setup for live performance
                      > over the years - I just got back from a
                      > performance with Domeworks in the parking lot of
                      > the Schenectady Museum two nights ago

                      I hadn't considered those....Troy and Schenectady
                      are 2.5+ hours away from here so I don't really
                      consider them in the NYC area. :-)

                      I agree with Mike's comments as well. His
                      statement the the planetarium community is
                      incestuous is true, however it should be noted
                      that this is largely not by choice. (That's been
                      forced on us by short-sighted penny-pinching
                      administrators!)


                      Kevin Conod
                      kdconod@...
                    • Ryan Wyatt
                      ... It is really, truly a dome. But I saw the show back in 2000, so I don t even know if it s still there. I actually recommend the show; it has its merits
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 5, 2006
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                        >> Actually, there's also the dome at Madame
                        >> Tussaud's, which runs a 3-D tour of Manhattan
                        >> (with an incorrectly-oriented Empire State
                        >> Building, as I recall).

                        > I thought that was a flat-screen theater - is it
                        > really a dome?

                        It is really, truly a dome. But I saw the show back
                        in 2000, so I don't even know if it's still there.
                        I actually recommend the show; it has its merits
                        (including the finale, which I won't spoil for you).

                        Of course, they look at you really funny when
                        you walk up to buy a ticket to *just* the dome
                        program. :)


                        Ryan, a.k.a.
                        Ryan Wyatt, Science Visualizer
                        Rose Center for Earth & Space
                        American Museum of Natural History
                        79th Street at Central Park West
                        New York, NY 10024
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