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RE: [fukuoka_farming] How can vegetables be grown naturally?

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  • Linda Shewan
    Thanks Suraj, it is a timely reminder that careful observation is the key - and also a great way to think about crab grass ... Linda From:
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 16, 2009
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      Thanks Suraj, it is a timely reminder that careful observation is the key -
      and also a great way to think about crab grass ... Linda


      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suraj Kumar
      Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 2009 12:10 PM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] How can vegetables be grown naturally?





      Hi Lee (and everybody),

      This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
      to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)

      I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
      started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
      tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
      leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
      roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
      (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
      attract the pollinators.

      Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
      beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
      nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
      throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
      wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
      the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
      butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
      roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
      almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
      helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
      beans).

      Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
      seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
      off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
      how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
      and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
      mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
      straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
      unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
      Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)

      -Suraj

      On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...
      <mailto:plain_farmer%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
      >
      > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in The
      Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
      vegetables in a stand of grass.
      >
      > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
      and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
      still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
      way or another.
      >
      > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if the
      grass is cut very low with a skythe?
      >
      > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
      organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
      irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
      >
      > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a grain,
      then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an input
      to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
      returning it to the field.
      >
      > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
      are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
      >
      > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
      where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
      drip tape is used for irrigation.
      >
      > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or so.
      The annual rainfall here is 30".
      >
      > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
      farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
      >
      --
      "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
      our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
      Dr. Albert Bartlett


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • thomcprestes
      Dear Raju, I ve always been curious about the different ways NF people are growing their vegetables. Do you personally keep a kitchen garden in your farm?
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 17, 2009
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        Dear Raju,

        I've always been curious about the different ways NF people are growing their vegetables. Do you personally keep a "kitchen garden" in your farm? How do you grow your vegetables - the ones you eat at home? And when you visit farmers that are converting to NF, what do you suggest them in terms of vegetable growing?

        Besides, I'm just curious, does anyone know if Fukuoka had a kitchen garden, or was he only eating things that were growing semi-wild in his fields, orchard etc.?

        I really find the question "how can vegetables be grown naturally" rather relevant, and would definetly like to hear everyone's experience with it.

        Thank you,

        Thomas

        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Suraj,
        > Most well come in" no till natural farming" group of" Fukuoka Farming".
        > Crab grass is a sign of desertification. This desertification is due to
        > tilling. When we till land for removing un wanted vegetation's, nature sends
        > many strong vegetation's to cover land.Crab grass goes very deep i found it
        > up to 30 feet in my field.It grows by every nodes. There is no solution in
        > scientific agriculture. Stop tilling is the only solution it will go by do
        > nothing.My field was also covered by crab grass but gone by N.F.
        > Thanks
        > Raju
        >
        > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Lee (and everybody),
        > >
        > > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
        > > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
        > >
        > > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
        > > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
        > > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
        > > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
        > > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
        > > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
        > > attract the pollinators.
        > >
        > > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
        > > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
        > > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
        > > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
        > > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
        > > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
        > > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
        > > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
        > > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
        > > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
        > > beans).
        > >
        > > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
        > > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
        > > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
        > > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
        > > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
        > > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
        > > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
        > > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
        > > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
        > >
        > > -Suraj
        > >
        > >
        > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...<plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
        > > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
        > > vegetables in a stand of grass.
        > > >
        > > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
        > > and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
        > > still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
        > > way or another.
        > > >
        > > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
        > > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
        > > >
        > > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
        > > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
        > > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
        > > >
        > > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
        > > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
        > > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
        > > returning it to the field.
        > > >
        > > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
        > > are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
        > > >
        > > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
        > > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
        > > drip tape is used for irrigation.
        > > >
        > > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
        > > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
        > > >
        > > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
        > > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
        > > >
        > > --
        > > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
        > > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
        > > Dr. Albert Bartlett
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Steven McCollough
        Suraj, I was wondering if you expose the mineral soil when you scatter seeds, and do you cover the seeds in any way? Also, do you think your method of
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 17, 2009
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          Suraj,

          I was wondering if you expose the mineral soil when you scatter seeds,
          and do you cover the seeds in any way?

          Also, do you think your method of gardening within the grass could be
          adapted to a quack grass which spreads by rhizomes rather than an annual
          like crab grass?

          Steve UP of Michigan, US

          Suraj Kumar wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Lee (and everybody),
          >
          > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
          > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
          >
          > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
          > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
          > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
          > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
          > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
          > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG
          > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG>), etc., that
          > attract the pollinators.
          >
          > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
          > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
          > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
          > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
          > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
          > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
          > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
          > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
          > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
          > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
          > beans).
          >
          > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
          > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
          > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
          > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
          > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
          > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
          > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
          > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
          > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
          >
          > -Suraj
          >
          > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...
          > <mailto:plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
          > >
          > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters
          > in The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about
          > growing vegetables in a stand of grass.
          > >
          > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming
          > website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable
          > gardening, but it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch
          > that must be produced in one way or another.
          > >
          > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass,
          > if the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
          > >
          > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables
          > in an organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful
          > where irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in
          > my opinion.
          > >
          > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
          > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to
          > ad an input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as
          > oposed to returning it to the field.
          > >
          > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures
          > that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
          > >
          > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin
          > Texas where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300'
          > long, and drip tape is used for irrigation.
          > >
          > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles
          > or so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
          > >
          > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
          > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
          > >
          > --
          > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
          > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
          > Dr. Albert Bartlett
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.76/2183 - Release Date: 06/17/09 05:53:00
          >
          >
        • Lee
          So in this anarchic way , you do not till the soil, or disc it? You mentioned transplanting plants once they ve started. Do you start them in a prepared
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 19, 2009
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            So in this "anarchic way", you do not till the soil, or disc it? You mentioned transplanting plants once they've started. Do you start them in a "prepared" seed bed?

            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Lee (and everybody),
            >
            > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
            > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
            >
            > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
            > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
            > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
            > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
            > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
            > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
            > attract the pollinators.
            >
            > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
            > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
            > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
            > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
            > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
            > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
            > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
            > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
            > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
            > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
            > beans).
            >
            > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
            > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
            > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
            > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
            > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
            > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
            > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
            > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
            > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
            >
            > -Suraj
            >
            > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing vegetables in a stand of grass.
            > >
            > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one way or another.
            > >
            > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
            > >
            > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
            > >
            > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to returning it to the field.
            > >
            > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
            > >
            > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and drip tape is used for irrigation.
            > >
            > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
            > >
            > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
            > >
            > --
            > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
            > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
            > Dr. Albert Bartlett
            >
          • Lee
            So Raju, do you just drill a little hole in the grass covered sod and put the seed directly into that hole, or do you use seedballs? If you use seed balls, do
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 19, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              So Raju, do you just drill a little hole in the grass covered sod and put the seed directly into that hole, or do you use seedballs? If you use seed balls, do you trim the grass VERY short before placing the seed balls?

              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Suraj,
              > Most well come in" no till natural farming" group of" Fukuoka Farming".
              > Crab grass is a sign of desertification. This desertification is due to
              > tilling. When we till land for removing un wanted vegetation's, nature sends
              > many strong vegetation's to cover land.Crab grass goes very deep i found it
              > up to 30 feet in my field.It grows by every nodes. There is no solution in
              > scientific agriculture. Stop tilling is the only solution it will go by do
              > nothing.My field was also covered by crab grass but gone by N.F.
              > Thanks
              > Raju
              >
              > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Lee (and everybody),
              > >
              > > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
              > > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
              > >
              > > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
              > > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
              > > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
              > > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
              > > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
              > > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
              > > attract the pollinators.
              > >
              > > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
              > > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
              > > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
              > > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
              > > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
              > > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
              > > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
              > > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
              > > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
              > > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
              > > beans).
              > >
              > > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
              > > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
              > > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
              > > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
              > > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
              > > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
              > > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
              > > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
              > > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
              > >
              > > -Suraj
              > >
              > >
              > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...<plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
              > > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
              > > vegetables in a stand of grass.
              > > >
              > > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
              > > and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
              > > still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
              > > way or another.
              > > >
              > > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
              > > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
              > > >
              > > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
              > > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
              > > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
              > > >
              > > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
              > > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
              > > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
              > > returning it to the field.
              > > >
              > > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
              > > are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
              > > >
              > > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
              > > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
              > > drip tape is used for irrigation.
              > > >
              > > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
              > > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
              > > >
              > > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
              > > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
              > > >
              > > --
              > > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
              > > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
              > > Dr. Albert Bartlett
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Lee
              Thats a nicely written reply Thomas. I m glad that you chimed in on the subject.
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 19, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Thats a nicely written reply Thomas. I'm glad that you chimed in on the subject.

                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "thomcprestes" <thomcprestes@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Raju,
                >
                > I've always been curious about the different ways NF people are growing their vegetables. Do you personally keep a "kitchen garden" in your farm? How do you grow your vegetables - the ones you eat at home? And when you visit farmers that are converting to NF, what do you suggest them in terms of vegetable growing?
                >
                > Besides, I'm just curious, does anyone know if Fukuoka had a kitchen garden, or was he only eating things that were growing semi-wild in his fields, orchard etc.?
                >
                > I really find the question "how can vegetables be grown naturally" rather relevant, and would definetly like to hear everyone's experience with it.
                >
                > Thank you,
                >
                > Thomas
                >
                > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Dear Suraj,
                > > Most well come in" no till natural farming" group of" Fukuoka Farming".
                > > Crab grass is a sign of desertification. This desertification is due to
                > > tilling. When we till land for removing un wanted vegetation's, nature sends
                > > many strong vegetation's to cover land.Crab grass goes very deep i found it
                > > up to 30 feet in my field.It grows by every nodes. There is no solution in
                > > scientific agriculture. Stop tilling is the only solution it will go by do
                > > nothing.My field was also covered by crab grass but gone by N.F.
                > > Thanks
                > > Raju
                > >
                > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Suraj Kumar <suraj@> wrote:
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hi Lee (and everybody),
                > > >
                > > > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                > > > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                > > >
                > > > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                > > > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                > > > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                > > > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                > > > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                > > > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                > > > attract the pollinators.
                > > >
                > > > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                > > > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                > > > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                > > > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                > > > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                > > > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                > > > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                > > > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                > > > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                > > > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                > > > beans).
                > > >
                > > > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                > > > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                > > > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                > > > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                > > > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                > > > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                > > > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                > > > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                > > > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                > > >
                > > > -Suraj
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@<plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                > > > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                > > > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                > > > >
                > > > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
                > > > and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
                > > > still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
                > > > way or another.
                > > > >
                > > > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                > > > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                > > > >
                > > > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
                > > > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                > > > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                > > > >
                > > > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                > > > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                > > > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                > > > returning it to the field.
                > > > >
                > > > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
                > > > are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                > > > >
                > > > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                > > > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                > > > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                > > > >
                > > > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                > > > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                > > > >
                > > > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                > > > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                > > > >
                > > > --
                > > > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                > > > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                > > > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • Raju Titus
                Dear Lee, Direct seeding, sowing by dibbling. sowing by seed ball Scattering seeds in before harvesting..I used all these methods. In grass cover I take non
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 19, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Lee,
                  Direct seeding, sowing by dibbling. sowing by seed ball Scattering seeds in
                  before harvesting..I used all these methods. In grass cover I take non grass
                  crops and non grass cover I take grass family members. Grass is a product of
                  tilling, burning and excess grazing.In no till conservative farming farmers
                  planting seeds directly in the cover of crop residues by using zero tillage
                  seed drills.
                  Thanks
                  Raju

                  On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > So in this "anarchic way", you do not till the soil, or disc it? You
                  > mentioned transplanting plants once they've started. Do you start them in a
                  > "prepared" seed bed?
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Lee (and everybody),
                  > >
                  > > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                  > > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                  > >
                  > > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                  > > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                  > > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                  > > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                  > > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                  > > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                  > > attract the pollinators.
                  > >
                  > > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                  > > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                  > > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                  > > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                  > > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                  > > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                  > > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                  > > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                  > > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                  > > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                  > > beans).
                  > >
                  > > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                  > > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                  > > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                  > > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                  > > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                  > > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                  > > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                  > > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                  > > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                  > >
                  > > -Suraj
                  > >
                  > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                  > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                  > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming
                  > website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but
                  > it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced
                  > in one way or another.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                  > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                  > > >
                  > > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in
                  > an organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                  > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                  > > >
                  > > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                  > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                  > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                  > returning it to the field.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures
                  > that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                  > > >
                  > > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                  > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                  > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                  > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                  > > >
                  > > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                  > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                  > > >
                  > > --
                  > > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                  > > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                  > > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ann Dickman
                  I live in the UK at 250m on the north side of Dartmoor. I find that if I weed at the beginning of June and leave the weeds as a mulch among the perennial
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 20, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I live in the UK at 250m on the north side of Dartmoor. I find that if I weed at the beginning of June and leave the weeds as a mulch among the perennial plants I can pull this mulch back when it is brown (about 2 weeks later)and sow some seeds. I scratch them in the earth and pat it down. If it is dry I water once. Then I use slug pellets and cover very lightly with grass mowings. Daikon, radish, swiss chard and lettuce have come up.
                    In another patch I grew naked oats among the weeds. Last year I cut the heads off to thresh and then cut the stalks and scattered them after sowing the seed like Fukuoka does. It germinated very well BUT it all got eaten by rabbits who liked it better than the grass.
                    I find that peas and beans only do in the conventional beds. Farm beans will grow wild but they are too tough to eat!
                  • Suraj Kumar
                    Hi Lee, I don t disc / till at all. However, I do weed out occasionally. To answer the other question of whether I started in a bed, yes and no. It depends on
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 20, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Lee,

                      I don't disc / till at all. However, I do weed out occasionally.

                      To answer the other question of whether I started in a bed, yes and
                      no. It depends on what is being grounded. I scattered brinjal, tomato
                      and coriander. I had to (obviously) ground Colocasia but there was no
                      preparations needed. I prepare beans in a bed because rats seem to
                      love the tender ones and end up destroying as soon as the beans show
                      up.

                      The mistake I kept making for a very long period was that I thought,
                      no matter how much excess sunlight shines, water can always compensate
                      for the excesses (I thought, this is the reason why amazon forests or
                      other tropical rain forests have abundance). So for about 4 months I
                      kept watering excessively... But only later did I realize that too
                      much watering can take nutrients further below into the soil... that
                      the real solution is to develop a good humus and instead use water
                      effectively.

                      Cheers,

                      -Suraj

                      On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 5:21 AM, Lee<plain_farmer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > So in this "anarchic way", you do not till the soil, or disc it? You
                      > mentioned transplanting plants once they've started. Do you start them in a
                      > "prepared" seed bed?
                      >
                      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Hi Lee (and everybody),
                      >>
                      >> This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                      >> to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                      >>
                      >> I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                      >> started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                      >> tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                      >> leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                      >> roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                      >> (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                      >> attract the pollinators.
                      >>
                      >> Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                      >> beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                      >> nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                      >> throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                      >> wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                      >> the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                      >> butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                      >> roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                      >> almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                      >> helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                      >> beans).
                      >>
                      >> Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                      >> seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                      >> off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                      >> how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                      >> and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                      >> mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                      >> straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                      >> unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                      >> Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                      >>
                      >> -Suraj
                      >>
                      >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                      >> > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                      >> > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                      >> >
                      >> > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming
                      >> > website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but
                      >> > it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced
                      >> > in one way or another.
                      >> >
                      >> > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                      >> > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                      >> >
                      >> > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
                      >> > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                      >> > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                      >> >
                      >> > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                      >> > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                      >> > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                      >> > returning it to the field.
                      >> >
                      >> > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures
                      >> > that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                      >> >
                      >> > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                      >> > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                      >> > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                      >> >
                      >> > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                      >> > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                      >> >
                      >> > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                      >> > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                      >> >
                      >> --
                      >> "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                      >> our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                      >> Dr. Albert Bartlett
                      >>
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                      our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                      Dr. Albert Bartlett
                    • Lee
                      I would like to thank everyone that replied. On the organic farm that I m currently working on, we pull the weeds and lay them on the beds as a mulch. I
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 24, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I would like to thank everyone that replied. On the organic farm that I'm currently working on, we pull the weeds and lay them on the beds as a mulch. I think this is called sheetmulching. That is the only practice that I think some no-dig gardeners also do, that is done here.

                        I think that I will need to get some hands-on experience, and also see it done first hand, when it comes to just spreading seeds. The only seeds that I've spread and grown in a natural way were rye grass seeds. I put them out in late winter beneath some plum trees where horses had trampled the native grass away. In the spring, the stand of rye grass was very lush. The surface of the ground was free of "other" grass, and the top 2-3 inches were soft, but it was cultivated by the hooves of horses, and not machinery.

                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Lee,
                        >
                        > I don't disc / till at all. However, I do weed out occasionally.
                        >
                        > To answer the other question of whether I started in a bed, yes and
                        > no. It depends on what is being grounded. I scattered brinjal, tomato
                        > and coriander. I had to (obviously) ground Colocasia but there was no
                        > preparations needed. I prepare beans in a bed because rats seem to
                        > love the tender ones and end up destroying as soon as the beans show
                        > up.
                        >
                        > The mistake I kept making for a very long period was that I thought,
                        > no matter how much excess sunlight shines, water can always compensate
                        > for the excesses (I thought, this is the reason why amazon forests or
                        > other tropical rain forests have abundance). So for about 4 months I
                        > kept watering excessively... But only later did I realize that too
                        > much watering can take nutrients further below into the soil... that
                        > the real solution is to develop a good humus and instead use water
                        > effectively.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        >
                        > -Suraj
                        >
                        > On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 5:21 AM, Lee<plain_farmer@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > So in this "anarchic way", you do not till the soil, or disc it? You
                        > > mentioned transplanting plants once they've started. Do you start them in a
                        > > "prepared" seed bed?
                        > >
                        > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Suraj Kumar <suraj@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> Hi Lee (and everybody),
                        > >>
                        > >> This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                        > >> to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                        > >>
                        > >> I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                        > >> started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                        > >> tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                        > >> leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                        > >> roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                        > >> (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                        > >> attract the pollinators.
                        > >>
                        > >> Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                        > >> beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                        > >> nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                        > >> throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                        > >> wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                        > >> the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                        > >> butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                        > >> roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                        > >> almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                        > >> helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                        > >> beans).
                        > >>
                        > >> Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                        > >> seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                        > >> off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                        > >> how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                        > >> and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                        > >> mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                        > >> straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                        > >> unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                        > >> Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                        > >>
                        > >> -Suraj
                        > >>
                        > >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@> wrote:
                        > >> >
                        > >> > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                        > >> > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                        > >> > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming
                        > >> > website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but
                        > >> > it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced
                        > >> > in one way or another.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                        > >> > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
                        > >> > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                        > >> > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                        > >> > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                        > >> > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                        > >> > returning it to the field.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures
                        > >> > that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                        > >> > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                        > >> > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                        > >> > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                        > >> >
                        > >> > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                        > >> > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                        > >> >
                        > >> --
                        > >> "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                        > >> our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                        > >> Dr. Albert Bartlett
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                        > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                        > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                        >
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