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Re: [fukuoka_farming] How can vegetables be grown naturally?

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  • Raju Titus
    Dear Suraj, Most well come in no till natural farming group of Fukuoka Farming . Crab grass is a sign of desertification. This desertification is due to
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 16, 2009
      Dear Suraj,
      Most well come in" no till natural farming" group of" Fukuoka Farming".
      Crab grass is a sign of desertification. This desertification is due to
      tilling. When we till land for removing un wanted vegetation's, nature sends
      many strong vegetation's to cover land.Crab grass goes very deep i found it
      up to 30 feet in my field.It grows by every nodes. There is no solution in
      scientific agriculture. Stop tilling is the only solution it will go by do
      nothing.My field was also covered by crab grass but gone by N.F.
      Thanks
      Raju

      On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hi Lee (and everybody),
      >
      > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
      > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
      >
      > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
      > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
      > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
      > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
      > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
      > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
      > attract the pollinators.
      >
      > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
      > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
      > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
      > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
      > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
      > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
      > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
      > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
      > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
      > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
      > beans).
      >
      > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
      > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
      > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
      > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
      > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
      > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
      > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
      > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
      > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
      >
      > -Suraj
      >
      >
      > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...<plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
      > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
      > vegetables in a stand of grass.
      > >
      > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
      > and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
      > still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
      > way or another.
      > >
      > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
      > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
      > >
      > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
      > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
      > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
      > >
      > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
      > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
      > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
      > returning it to the field.
      > >
      > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
      > are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
      > >
      > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
      > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
      > drip tape is used for irrigation.
      > >
      > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
      > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
      > >
      > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
      > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
      > >
      > --
      > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
      > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
      > Dr. Albert Bartlett
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Linda Shewan
      Thanks Suraj, it is a timely reminder that careful observation is the key - and also a great way to think about crab grass ... Linda From:
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 16, 2009
        Thanks Suraj, it is a timely reminder that careful observation is the key -
        and also a great way to think about crab grass ... Linda


        From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suraj Kumar
        Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 2009 12:10 PM
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] How can vegetables be grown naturally?





        Hi Lee (and everybody),

        This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
        to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)

        I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
        started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
        tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
        leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
        roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
        (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
        attract the pollinators.

        Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
        beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
        nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
        throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
        wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
        the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
        butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
        roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
        almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
        helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
        beans).

        Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
        seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
        off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
        how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
        and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
        mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
        straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
        unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
        Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)

        -Suraj

        On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...
        <mailto:plain_farmer%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
        >
        > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in The
        Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
        vegetables in a stand of grass.
        >
        > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
        and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
        still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
        way or another.
        >
        > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if the
        grass is cut very low with a skythe?
        >
        > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
        organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
        irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
        >
        > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a grain,
        then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an input
        to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
        returning it to the field.
        >
        > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
        are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
        >
        > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
        where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
        drip tape is used for irrigation.
        >
        > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or so.
        The annual rainfall here is 30".
        >
        > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
        farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
        >
        --
        "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
        our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
        Dr. Albert Bartlett


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • thomcprestes
        Dear Raju, I ve always been curious about the different ways NF people are growing their vegetables. Do you personally keep a kitchen garden in your farm?
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 17, 2009
          Dear Raju,

          I've always been curious about the different ways NF people are growing their vegetables. Do you personally keep a "kitchen garden" in your farm? How do you grow your vegetables - the ones you eat at home? And when you visit farmers that are converting to NF, what do you suggest them in terms of vegetable growing?

          Besides, I'm just curious, does anyone know if Fukuoka had a kitchen garden, or was he only eating things that were growing semi-wild in his fields, orchard etc.?

          I really find the question "how can vegetables be grown naturally" rather relevant, and would definetly like to hear everyone's experience with it.

          Thank you,

          Thomas

          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Suraj,
          > Most well come in" no till natural farming" group of" Fukuoka Farming".
          > Crab grass is a sign of desertification. This desertification is due to
          > tilling. When we till land for removing un wanted vegetation's, nature sends
          > many strong vegetation's to cover land.Crab grass goes very deep i found it
          > up to 30 feet in my field.It grows by every nodes. There is no solution in
          > scientific agriculture. Stop tilling is the only solution it will go by do
          > nothing.My field was also covered by crab grass but gone by N.F.
          > Thanks
          > Raju
          >
          > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Lee (and everybody),
          > >
          > > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
          > > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
          > >
          > > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
          > > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
          > > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
          > > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
          > > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
          > > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
          > > attract the pollinators.
          > >
          > > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
          > > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
          > > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
          > > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
          > > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
          > > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
          > > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
          > > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
          > > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
          > > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
          > > beans).
          > >
          > > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
          > > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
          > > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
          > > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
          > > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
          > > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
          > > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
          > > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
          > > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
          > >
          > > -Suraj
          > >
          > >
          > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...<plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
          > > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
          > > vegetables in a stand of grass.
          > > >
          > > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
          > > and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
          > > still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
          > > way or another.
          > > >
          > > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
          > > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
          > > >
          > > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
          > > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
          > > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
          > > >
          > > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
          > > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
          > > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
          > > returning it to the field.
          > > >
          > > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
          > > are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
          > > >
          > > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
          > > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
          > > drip tape is used for irrigation.
          > > >
          > > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
          > > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
          > > >
          > > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
          > > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
          > > >
          > > --
          > > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
          > > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
          > > Dr. Albert Bartlett
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Steven McCollough
          Suraj, I was wondering if you expose the mineral soil when you scatter seeds, and do you cover the seeds in any way? Also, do you think your method of
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 17, 2009
            Suraj,

            I was wondering if you expose the mineral soil when you scatter seeds,
            and do you cover the seeds in any way?

            Also, do you think your method of gardening within the grass could be
            adapted to a quack grass which spreads by rhizomes rather than an annual
            like crab grass?

            Steve UP of Michigan, US

            Suraj Kumar wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi Lee (and everybody),
            >
            > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
            > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
            >
            > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
            > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
            > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
            > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
            > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
            > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG
            > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG>), etc., that
            > attract the pollinators.
            >
            > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
            > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
            > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
            > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
            > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
            > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
            > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
            > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
            > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
            > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
            > beans).
            >
            > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
            > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
            > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
            > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
            > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
            > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
            > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
            > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
            > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
            >
            > -Suraj
            >
            > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...
            > <mailto:plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
            > >
            > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters
            > in The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about
            > growing vegetables in a stand of grass.
            > >
            > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming
            > website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable
            > gardening, but it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch
            > that must be produced in one way or another.
            > >
            > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass,
            > if the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
            > >
            > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables
            > in an organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful
            > where irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in
            > my opinion.
            > >
            > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
            > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to
            > ad an input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as
            > oposed to returning it to the field.
            > >
            > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures
            > that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
            > >
            > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin
            > Texas where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300'
            > long, and drip tape is used for irrigation.
            > >
            > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles
            > or so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
            > >
            > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
            > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
            > >
            > --
            > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
            > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
            > Dr. Albert Bartlett
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.76/2183 - Release Date: 06/17/09 05:53:00
            >
            >
          • Lee
            So in this anarchic way , you do not till the soil, or disc it? You mentioned transplanting plants once they ve started. Do you start them in a prepared
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 19, 2009
              So in this "anarchic way", you do not till the soil, or disc it? You mentioned transplanting plants once they've started. Do you start them in a "prepared" seed bed?

              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Lee (and everybody),
              >
              > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
              > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
              >
              > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
              > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
              > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
              > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
              > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
              > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
              > attract the pollinators.
              >
              > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
              > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
              > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
              > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
              > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
              > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
              > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
              > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
              > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
              > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
              > beans).
              >
              > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
              > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
              > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
              > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
              > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
              > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
              > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
              > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
              > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
              >
              > -Suraj
              >
              > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing vegetables in a stand of grass.
              > >
              > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one way or another.
              > >
              > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
              > >
              > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
              > >
              > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to returning it to the field.
              > >
              > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
              > >
              > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and drip tape is used for irrigation.
              > >
              > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
              > >
              > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
              > >
              > --
              > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
              > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
              > Dr. Albert Bartlett
              >
            • Lee
              So Raju, do you just drill a little hole in the grass covered sod and put the seed directly into that hole, or do you use seedballs? If you use seed balls, do
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 19, 2009
                So Raju, do you just drill a little hole in the grass covered sod and put the seed directly into that hole, or do you use seedballs? If you use seed balls, do you trim the grass VERY short before placing the seed balls?

                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Suraj,
                > Most well come in" no till natural farming" group of" Fukuoka Farming".
                > Crab grass is a sign of desertification. This desertification is due to
                > tilling. When we till land for removing un wanted vegetation's, nature sends
                > many strong vegetation's to cover land.Crab grass goes very deep i found it
                > up to 30 feet in my field.It grows by every nodes. There is no solution in
                > scientific agriculture. Stop tilling is the only solution it will go by do
                > nothing.My field was also covered by crab grass but gone by N.F.
                > Thanks
                > Raju
                >
                > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Lee (and everybody),
                > >
                > > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                > > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                > >
                > > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                > > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                > > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                > > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                > > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                > > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                > > attract the pollinators.
                > >
                > > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                > > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                > > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                > > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                > > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                > > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                > > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                > > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                > > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                > > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                > > beans).
                > >
                > > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                > > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                > > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                > > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                > > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                > > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                > > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                > > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                > > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                > >
                > > -Suraj
                > >
                > >
                > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...<plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                > > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                > > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                > > >
                > > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
                > > and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
                > > still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
                > > way or another.
                > > >
                > > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                > > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                > > >
                > > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
                > > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                > > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                > > >
                > > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                > > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                > > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                > > returning it to the field.
                > > >
                > > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
                > > are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                > > >
                > > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                > > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                > > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                > > >
                > > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                > > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                > > >
                > > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                > > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                > > >
                > > --
                > > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                > > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                > > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Lee
                Thats a nicely written reply Thomas. I m glad that you chimed in on the subject.
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 19, 2009
                  Thats a nicely written reply Thomas. I'm glad that you chimed in on the subject.

                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "thomcprestes" <thomcprestes@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Raju,
                  >
                  > I've always been curious about the different ways NF people are growing their vegetables. Do you personally keep a "kitchen garden" in your farm? How do you grow your vegetables - the ones you eat at home? And when you visit farmers that are converting to NF, what do you suggest them in terms of vegetable growing?
                  >
                  > Besides, I'm just curious, does anyone know if Fukuoka had a kitchen garden, or was he only eating things that were growing semi-wild in his fields, orchard etc.?
                  >
                  > I really find the question "how can vegetables be grown naturally" rather relevant, and would definetly like to hear everyone's experience with it.
                  >
                  > Thank you,
                  >
                  > Thomas
                  >
                  > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear Suraj,
                  > > Most well come in" no till natural farming" group of" Fukuoka Farming".
                  > > Crab grass is a sign of desertification. This desertification is due to
                  > > tilling. When we till land for removing un wanted vegetation's, nature sends
                  > > many strong vegetation's to cover land.Crab grass goes very deep i found it
                  > > up to 30 feet in my field.It grows by every nodes. There is no solution in
                  > > scientific agriculture. Stop tilling is the only solution it will go by do
                  > > nothing.My field was also covered by crab grass but gone by N.F.
                  > > Thanks
                  > > Raju
                  > >
                  > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Suraj Kumar <suraj@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Lee (and everybody),
                  > > >
                  > > > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                  > > > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                  > > >
                  > > > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                  > > > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                  > > > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                  > > > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                  > > > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                  > > > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                  > > > attract the pollinators.
                  > > >
                  > > > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                  > > > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                  > > > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                  > > > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                  > > > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                  > > > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                  > > > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                  > > > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                  > > > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                  > > > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                  > > > beans).
                  > > >
                  > > > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                  > > > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                  > > > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                  > > > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                  > > > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                  > > > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                  > > > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                  > > > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                  > > > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                  > > >
                  > > > -Suraj
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@<plain_farmer%40yahoo.com>>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                  > > > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                  > > > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming website,
                  > > > and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but it is
                  > > > still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced in one
                  > > > way or another.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                  > > > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
                  > > > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                  > > > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                  > > > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                  > > > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                  > > > returning it to the field.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures that
                  > > > are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                  > > > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                  > > > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                  > > > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                  > > > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                  > > > >
                  > > > --
                  > > > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                  > > > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                  > > > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • Raju Titus
                  Dear Lee, Direct seeding, sowing by dibbling. sowing by seed ball Scattering seeds in before harvesting..I used all these methods. In grass cover I take non
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 19, 2009
                    Dear Lee,
                    Direct seeding, sowing by dibbling. sowing by seed ball Scattering seeds in
                    before harvesting..I used all these methods. In grass cover I take non grass
                    crops and non grass cover I take grass family members. Grass is a product of
                    tilling, burning and excess grazing.In no till conservative farming farmers
                    planting seeds directly in the cover of crop residues by using zero tillage
                    seed drills.
                    Thanks
                    Raju

                    On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > So in this "anarchic way", you do not till the soil, or disc it? You
                    > mentioned transplanting plants once they've started. Do you start them in a
                    > "prepared" seed bed?
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Lee (and everybody),
                    > >
                    > > This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                    > > to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                    > >
                    > > I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                    > > started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                    > > tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                    > > leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                    > > roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                    > > (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                    > > attract the pollinators.
                    > >
                    > > Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                    > > beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                    > > nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                    > > throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                    > > wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                    > > the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                    > > butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                    > > roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                    > > almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                    > > helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                    > > beans).
                    > >
                    > > Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                    > > seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                    > > off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                    > > how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                    > > and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                    > > mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                    > > straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                    > > unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                    > > Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                    > >
                    > > -Suraj
                    > >
                    > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                    > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                    > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                    > > >
                    > > > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming
                    > website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but
                    > it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced
                    > in one way or another.
                    > > >
                    > > > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                    > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                    > > >
                    > > > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in
                    > an organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                    > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                    > > >
                    > > > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                    > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                    > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                    > returning it to the field.
                    > > >
                    > > > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures
                    > that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                    > > >
                    > > > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                    > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                    > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                    > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                    > > >
                    > > > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                    > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                    > > >
                    > > --
                    > > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                    > > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                    > > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ann Dickman
                    I live in the UK at 250m on the north side of Dartmoor. I find that if I weed at the beginning of June and leave the weeds as a mulch among the perennial
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 20, 2009
                      I live in the UK at 250m on the north side of Dartmoor. I find that if I weed at the beginning of June and leave the weeds as a mulch among the perennial plants I can pull this mulch back when it is brown (about 2 weeks later)and sow some seeds. I scratch them in the earth and pat it down. If it is dry I water once. Then I use slug pellets and cover very lightly with grass mowings. Daikon, radish, swiss chard and lettuce have come up.
                      In another patch I grew naked oats among the weeds. Last year I cut the heads off to thresh and then cut the stalks and scattered them after sowing the seed like Fukuoka does. It germinated very well BUT it all got eaten by rabbits who liked it better than the grass.
                      I find that peas and beans only do in the conventional beds. Farm beans will grow wild but they are too tough to eat!
                    • Suraj Kumar
                      Hi Lee, I don t disc / till at all. However, I do weed out occasionally. To answer the other question of whether I started in a bed, yes and no. It depends on
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 20, 2009
                        Hi Lee,

                        I don't disc / till at all. However, I do weed out occasionally.

                        To answer the other question of whether I started in a bed, yes and
                        no. It depends on what is being grounded. I scattered brinjal, tomato
                        and coriander. I had to (obviously) ground Colocasia but there was no
                        preparations needed. I prepare beans in a bed because rats seem to
                        love the tender ones and end up destroying as soon as the beans show
                        up.

                        The mistake I kept making for a very long period was that I thought,
                        no matter how much excess sunlight shines, water can always compensate
                        for the excesses (I thought, this is the reason why amazon forests or
                        other tropical rain forests have abundance). So for about 4 months I
                        kept watering excessively... But only later did I realize that too
                        much watering can take nutrients further below into the soil... that
                        the real solution is to develop a good humus and instead use water
                        effectively.

                        Cheers,

                        -Suraj

                        On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 5:21 AM, Lee<plain_farmer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > So in this "anarchic way", you do not till the soil, or disc it? You
                        > mentioned transplanting plants once they've started. Do you start them in a
                        > "prepared" seed bed?
                        >
                        > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Hi Lee (and everybody),
                        >>
                        >> This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                        >> to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                        >>
                        >> I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                        >> started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                        >> tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                        >> leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                        >> roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                        >> (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                        >> attract the pollinators.
                        >>
                        >> Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                        >> beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                        >> nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                        >> throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                        >> wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                        >> the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                        >> butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                        >> roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                        >> almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                        >> helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                        >> beans).
                        >>
                        >> Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                        >> seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                        >> off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                        >> how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                        >> and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                        >> mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                        >> straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                        >> unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                        >> Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                        >>
                        >> -Suraj
                        >>
                        >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@...> wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                        >> > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                        >> > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                        >> >
                        >> > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming
                        >> > website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but
                        >> > it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced
                        >> > in one way or another.
                        >> >
                        >> > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                        >> > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                        >> >
                        >> > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
                        >> > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                        >> > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                        >> >
                        >> > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                        >> > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                        >> > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                        >> > returning it to the field.
                        >> >
                        >> > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures
                        >> > that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                        >> >
                        >> > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                        >> > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                        >> > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                        >> >
                        >> > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                        >> > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                        >> >
                        >> > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                        >> > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                        >> >
                        >> --
                        >> "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                        >> our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                        >> Dr. Albert Bartlett
                        >>
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                        our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                        Dr. Albert Bartlett
                      • Lee
                        I would like to thank everyone that replied. On the organic farm that I m currently working on, we pull the weeds and lay them on the beds as a mulch. I
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 24, 2009
                          I would like to thank everyone that replied. On the organic farm that I'm currently working on, we pull the weeds and lay them on the beds as a mulch. I think this is called sheetmulching. That is the only practice that I think some no-dig gardeners also do, that is done here.

                          I think that I will need to get some hands-on experience, and also see it done first hand, when it comes to just spreading seeds. The only seeds that I've spread and grown in a natural way were rye grass seeds. I put them out in late winter beneath some plum trees where horses had trampled the native grass away. In the spring, the stand of rye grass was very lush. The surface of the ground was free of "other" grass, and the top 2-3 inches were soft, but it was cultivated by the hooves of horses, and not machinery.

                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Suraj Kumar <suraj@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Lee,
                          >
                          > I don't disc / till at all. However, I do weed out occasionally.
                          >
                          > To answer the other question of whether I started in a bed, yes and
                          > no. It depends on what is being grounded. I scattered brinjal, tomato
                          > and coriander. I had to (obviously) ground Colocasia but there was no
                          > preparations needed. I prepare beans in a bed because rats seem to
                          > love the tender ones and end up destroying as soon as the beans show
                          > up.
                          >
                          > The mistake I kept making for a very long period was that I thought,
                          > no matter how much excess sunlight shines, water can always compensate
                          > for the excesses (I thought, this is the reason why amazon forests or
                          > other tropical rain forests have abundance). So for about 4 months I
                          > kept watering excessively... But only later did I realize that too
                          > much watering can take nutrients further below into the soil... that
                          > the real solution is to develop a good humus and instead use water
                          > effectively.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > -Suraj
                          >
                          > On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 5:21 AM, Lee<plain_farmer@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > So in this "anarchic way", you do not till the soil, or disc it? You
                          > > mentioned transplanting plants once they've started. Do you start them in a
                          > > "prepared" seed bed?
                          > >
                          > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Suraj Kumar <suraj@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> Hi Lee (and everybody),
                          > >>
                          > >> This is also my first post so let me take the opportunity to say "hi"
                          > >> to everyone here. I hope this post will be a useful one :)
                          > >>
                          > >> I have a 700 sq.ft. (70x10) kitchen garden (Bangalore, India). I
                          > >> started growing vegetables and other useful plants (brinjal, chillies,
                          > >> tomatoes, colocasia, butter beans, water melon, aloe vera, neem, curry
                          > >> leaves, tulsi) besides several hardy variety flowering plants like
                          > >> roses, jasmine, 'kanakambara'
                          > >> (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanakambara.JPG), etc., that
                          > >> attract the pollinators.
                          > >>
                          > >> Most of my recently sown vegetables grow in an 'anarchic' way. So no
                          > >> beds or rows. But all this has worked because I have taller plants
                          > >> nearby to 'protect' the seedlings from sunlight. I typically just
                          > >> throw the seeds around the shady areas and later transplant them to
                          > >> wherever I think is suitable. When transplanting I take into account
                          > >> the nature of the roots of the plants being placed together (ex:
                          > >> butter beans have longer roots but tomatoes have shallow, broader
                          > >> roots. So they don't compete all that much). So I end up planting them
                          > >> almost in the same place, thereby not only saving space but also
                          > >> helping tomato grow on a relatively nitrogen rich soil (fixated by the
                          > >> beans).
                          > >>
                          > >> Crab grass grows a lot in my garden. I let it grow until it starts
                          > >> seeding and then I cut off the seeds and throw the seeds out. I cut
                          > >> off the rest of the grass, dry it up and use it as mulch. No matter
                          > >> how carefully I remove the crab grass seeds, some end up falling back
                          > >> and thereby reseeding and 'sustaining' a steady supply of 'straw' for
                          > >> mulch. All I'm saying is, you don't even have to worry about growing
                          > >> straw. The only thing you need is careful observation, for if left
                          > >> unnoticed, the crab grass can spread and cause a lot of work later.
                          > >> Its like "A stitch in time saves nine" :)
                          > >>
                          > >> -Suraj
                          > >>
                          > >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Lee <plain_farmer@> wrote:
                          > >> >
                          > >> > I have read the One Straw Revolution, as well as important chapters in
                          > >> > The Natural Way of Farming. Still, I do not feel confident about growing
                          > >> > vegetables in a stand of grass.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > I have read about synergistic agriculture on the Fukuoka farming
                          > >> > website, and it seems like the most natural way of vegetable gardening, but
                          > >> > it is still in rows, and still requites a straw mulch that must be produced
                          > >> > in one way or another.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > So, can vegetables other than Daikons be grown in a stand of grass, if
                          > >> > the grass is cut very low with a skythe?
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Is synergistic agriculture the most natural way to grow vegetables in an
                          > >> > organized "row" or "bed" manner? Growing in a wide bed is useful where
                          > >> > irrigation hoses are used, as well as for estimating yeilds, in my opinion.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Currently, I'm wondering if I could grow my own straw, by growing a
                          > >> > grain, then using the straw to mulch vegetable beds. Then, I'd have to ad an
                          > >> > input to the grain field, because I'd be romoving the straw, as oposed to
                          > >> > returning it to the field.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > So, can a living mulch work with vegetables? How about green manures
                          > >> > that are grown on a no-dig bed, then cut and sheet mulched?
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Currently, I'm working full-time on an organic farm near Austin Texas
                          > >> > where a tractor is used for establishing wide rows that are 300' long, and
                          > >> > drip tape is used for irrigation.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > I'd like to farm in Texas, possibly further west by a hundred miles or
                          > >> > so. The annual rainfall here is 30".
                          > >> >
                          > >> > On this farm we pull all weeds, or go after them with hoes. Both the
                          > >> > farmer and I have read the One Straw Revolution.
                          > >> >
                          > >> --
                          > >> "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                          > >> our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                          > >> Dr. Albert Bartlett
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                          > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                          > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                          >
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