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Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus - Arbuscular Mycorrhizas

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  • Don Graves
    Hello Robin & Jamie...& all in fact NOT ALL fungi are decomposers, (saprotrophic).. parasitic or disease causing... The oldest mycorrhiza group (Zygomycetes) ,
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 4 10:51 AM
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      Hello Robin & Jamie...& all
      in fact NOT ALL fungi are decomposers, (saprotrophic).. parasitic or disease
      causing...

      The oldest mycorrhiza group (Zygomycetes) , aka ARBUSCULAR MYCORHIZAS,
      Glomales or Glomalean fungi are BIOTROPHIC organisms ... BIO ~ = living,
      TROPHIC = feeding
      Arbuscular mycorrhizas cannot be grown in lab dishes on non-living media,
      (without living plant root hosts)...
      as can the Basiodimycete & Ascomycete mycorhizal fungi
      Arbuscular mycorrhizas (AM) are biotrophic organisms that feed on energy
      from healthy plants
      ... in (bidrectional) exchange for minerals (& perhaps water) obtained from
      thread-like networks of hyphae (fine fungal tubules) in the soil. Hyphae
      occupy smaller soil spaces & a larger total soil volume compared to plant
      roots only.

      regards
      Don


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "jamie" <jamie@...>
      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:35 PM
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


      > Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as
      > indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just
      > doing what it is supposed to do, decompose dying or unhealthy plants. To
      put
      > it more simply it's not the fungus that is the problem. But then I think
      you
      > probably know this already. But thinking like this will help you avoid
      > spraying your veg with the copper sulphate that I'm sure is what your
      local
      > viticulters are spraying on their crops. It does indeed work well against
      > certain fungal and bacterial attacks such as mildew, however, copper
      enters
      > the soil and then remains there, as the concentration increases through
      > respraying it reaches a level of toxicity toward earthworms. Here is some
      > more information on copper compounds and their effects on plants (sorry I
      > don't have the www address);
      >
      > >copper compounds. Copper is a foliar fungicide with protective action.
      > Copper compounds can be highly toxic to many fruit crops and must be used
      > with extreme care. Copper >sulfate is soluble in water. This high degree
      of
      > solubility is the fundamental cause of toxicity problems, which copper
      > sulfate can cause to all fruit crops. Fixed coppers have been >developed
      > that are relatively insoluble and therefore less toxic to plants. However,
      > fixed coppers can also result in phytotoxicity under certain conditions.
      The
      > fungicidal activity of >copper is based on its ability to destroy proteins
      > in plants. This is true for all plants, fungi, and fruit plants. When lime
      > is combined with copper compounds, it reacts with the copper
      > >making it more stable. Thus, copper compounds in the presence of lime
      would
      > generally produce lower, more uniform concentrations of free copper, which
      > in turn would be less apt >to injure plant tissues than if no lime were
      > used. Because copper has the ability to kill all types of plant tissue,
      the
      > use of copper fungicides carries with it the risk of causing injury to
      > >fruit plants. Ideally, copper on the leaf or fruit surface should be high
      > enough to kill the fungus or bacteria but low enough not to cause injury
      to
      > the plant. Factors that can promote >injury include: failure to use enough
      > lime; cold, wet weather conditions that apparently increase copper's
      > solubility, allowing more into the plant and resulting in toxicity; and
      > >application of excessive rates of copper. Even when no injury is evident
      on
      > the plant, subtle effects of the copper on the plant may be occurring. In
      > addition, to reduce growth and >yields, it has been shown that the use of
      > copper fungicides can reduce the maturity of the fruit as well as that of
      > the shoots. Copper fungicides can have subtle, chronic negative >impacts
      on
      > fruit plants. Copper provides low to moderate control of many fungal and
      > bacterial diseases. Fixed coppers, plus lime, are safer than Bordeaux.
      They
      > may be used for >leaf curl control on stone fruits and pre- and
      postharvest
      > leaf spot control on tart cherries. Copper compounds should not be applied
      > in a postharvest spray without adding lime. If >copper is applied without
      > lime, orchards will show toxicity symptoms such as chlorosis (yellowing),
      > leaf drop on tart cherries, and necrosis (browning) on sweet cherries. If
      a
      > >copper material is applied without lime and yellowing and leaf drop
      occur,
      > an application of lime within 2 to 3 weeks after the copper application
      may
      > prevent further yellowing and >leaf drop.
      >
      >
      > I've used cardboard also this year to inhibit the growth of plants in an
      > area I'm now preparing for winter veg. It has certainly worked well,
      > allowing minimal 'weeding' before I seed the surface with things like
      > spinach, chicory, lettuce etc. I declined the offer of manure earlier
      this
      > year after it being suggested by Emilia that the best way to improve the
      > fertility of the soil and keep it in balance was by simply using plants,
      > just as happens in nature. I'd think you might very well be able to plant
      > much of your land this winter with a cover crop that you could scythe and
      > leave as a green mulch on the surface when you plant your veg next spring
      or
      > even interplant amongst a cover crop such as white clover. You might want
      to
      > look at http://www.sare.org/handbook/mccp2/index.htm for a cover crop that
      > will suit your climate which, I suspect, is very similar to Southern
      > California in this cover crop database (I've just remembered this one
      also,
      > should just be what your looking for as it's aimed specifically at
      > California http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/ccrop.exe). Have a look
      at
      > that earlier discussion on this list (from message 330 the thread is
      called
      > to souscayrous, emilia and all and then Soil Amendments).
      >
      > You seem to be taking a patient approach to your land so rather than go in
      > spraying, see if you can't ameliorate the worst of your conditions by
      simply
      > following nature's lead by rebuilding the natural fertility of your soil
      > through plants. I'm about to build some raised beds for next years crops
      and
      > I intend planting the beds this winter with cover crops to stop erosion,
      > keep the soil loose, feed the soil microorganisms and build up plant
      > available nutrients. Why not order Emilia's video (which I'm sure she has
      in
      > Spanish and I know she has in English) and we can compare notes on
      progress
      > and keep in contact with Emilia via this group to keep us on the right
      path.
      > Whilst the beds take a little work to build and there is some weeding
      > through the first couple of season's, once the beds are established you
      will
      > have the soil in as natural and 'wild' a state as is possible and thus a
      > healthy soil that produces nutritious crops that come to resist pests and
      > diseases.
      >
      > Jamie
      > Souscayrous
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
      > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:10 AM
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie
      and
      > others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
      > outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is
      on
      > what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry
      > tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have
      > impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the
      > land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or
      > clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The
      > prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun
      burn,
      > drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we
      > started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing
      to
      > grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The
      aphids
      > were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels
      > alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what
      > happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was
      my
      > comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and
      > noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering
      > hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking
      > that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the
      focal
      > point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have
      seen
      > dill get decimated in this fashion.
      > We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline
      drought
      > and drought prone areas.
      > Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these
      processes
      > unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
      > Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the
      grapes.
      > I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is
      innofensive.
      > Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
      > I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
      > Regards,
      > Robin
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • gate44o
      This has got to be some of the coolest most thought-provoking messages I have seen. To think that the oldest fungi are biotrophic plant symbiants makes me see
      Message 2 of 3 , Sep 6 3:49 AM
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        This has got to be some of the coolest most thought-provoking
        messages I have seen. To think that the oldest fungi are
        biotrophic plant symbiants makes me see a time long ago when all
        existed in harmony and one day will again.

        Tell us more, Don. How do we know that biotrophics are the
        oldest?

        Who are these creatures anyway? Do they speak to you at all. Can
        you hear them Don. It seems you may be able to. Have you ever
        read Madeleine L'Engle's book The Wind in the Door?

        Leland

        --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., "Don Graves" <dgraves@i...> wrote:
        > Hello Robin & Jamie...& all
        > in fact NOT ALL fungi are decomposers, (saprotrophic)..
        parasitic or disease
        > causing...
        >
        > The oldest mycorrhiza group (Zygomycetes) , aka ARBUSCULAR
        MYCORHIZAS,
        > Glomales or Glomalean fungi are BIOTROPHIC organisms ... BIO
        ~ = living,
        > TROPHIC = feeding
        > (without living plant root hosts)...
        > as can the Basiodimycete & Ascomycete mycorhizal fungi
        > Arbuscular mycorrhizas (AM) are biotrophic organisms that feed
        on energy
        > from h
        > Arbuscular mycorrhizas cannot be grown in lab dishes on
        non-living media,ealthy plants
        > ... in (bidrectional) exchange for minerals (& perhaps water)
        obtained from
        > thread-like networks of hyphae (fine fungal tubules) in the
        soil. H
      • Don Graves
        Hi Leland I don t know what you understand by the term BIOTROPHY?? As indicated in my previous message, biotrophy means one organism obtaining at least some
        Message 3 of 3 , Sep 6 7:25 PM
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          Hi Leland
          I don't know what you understand by the term BIOTROPHY??

          As indicated in my previous message, 'biotrophy' means one organism
          obtaining at least some of its nutrients from a healthy living organism (eg.
          like a foetus in the womb)
          ARBUSCULAR MYCORRHIZAL FUNGI (aka ENDO-MYCORRHIZAs) obtain mineral
          nutrients from the soil, but MUST obtain CARBON (ENERGY) from living plant
          host roots. ENDOMYCORRHIZAL FUNGI do not decompose non-living carbon
          sources as do ECTO-MYCORRHIZAL FUNGI that are more common on woody plant
          species.
          Mycorrhizal symbiosis (plant-fungal partnership) is usually mutually
          beneficial to both plant & fungus, ... (as well as providing nutrient
          benefits to soil micro-organisms associated with or in close proximity to
          plant roots and soil fungal hyphae). However, .... during winter when light
          energy is in short supply, Carbon from plant photosynthesis may become a
          limiting nutrient for plant & fungal growth.
          This winter symbiosis situation is analagous to a foetus (or an infant) may
          be called a parasite whilst depending on it's parent for all it's needs, ...
          it is only later in the plant growing season that soil minerals such as
          phosphate directly benefit flower & seed development.

          regards
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "gate44o" <gate44o@...>
          To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 10:49 PM
          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] biotrophics Don - Re: On Fungus - Arbuscular
          Mycorrhizas


          > This has got to be some of the coolest most thought-provoking
          > messages I have seen. To think that the oldest fungi are
          > biotrophic plant symbiants makes me see a time long ago when all
          > existed in harmony and one day will again.
          >
          > Tell us more, Don. How do we know that biotrophics are the
          > oldest?
          >
          > Who are these creatures anyway? Do they speak to you at all. Can
          > you hear them Don. It seems you may be able to. Have you ever
          > read Madeleine L'Engle's book The Wind in the Door?
          >
          > Leland
          >
          > --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., "Don Graves" <dgraves@i...> wrote:
          > > Hello Robin & Jamie...& all
          > > in fact NOT ALL fungi are decomposers, (saprotrophic)..
          > parasitic or disease
          > > causing...
          > >
          > > The oldest mycorrhiza group (Zygomycetes) , aka ARBUSCULAR
          > MYCORHIZAS,
          > > Glomales or Glomalean fungi are BIOTROPHIC organisms ... BIO
          > ~ = living,
          > > TROPHIC = feeding
          > > (without living plant root hosts)...
          > > as can the Basiodimycete & Ascomycete mycorhizal fungi
          > > Arbuscular mycorrhizas (AM) are biotrophic organisms that feed
          > on energy
          > > from h
          > > Arbuscular mycorrhizas cannot be grown in lab dishes on
          > non-living media,ealthy plants
          > > ... in (bidrectional) exchange for minerals (& perhaps water)
          > obtained from
          > > thread-like networks of hyphae (fine fungal tubules) in the
          > soil. H
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
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