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Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus

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  • Chris Sawyer
    If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
      If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores and can even be used as a soil drench.
      Chris Sawyer
      www.jakesfarm.com
    • jamie
      Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just doing what it is
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
        Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as
        indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just
        doing what it is supposed to do, decompose dying or unhealthy plants. To put
        it more simply it's not the fungus that is the problem. But then I think you
        probably know this already. But thinking like this will help you avoid
        spraying your veg with the copper sulphate that I'm sure is what your local
        viticulters are spraying on their crops. It does indeed work well against
        certain fungal and bacterial attacks such as mildew, however, copper enters
        the soil and then remains there, as the concentration increases through
        respraying it reaches a level of toxicity toward earthworms. Here is some
        more information on copper compounds and their effects on plants (sorry I
        don't have the www address);

        >copper compounds. Copper is a foliar fungicide with protective action.
        Copper compounds can be highly toxic to many fruit crops and must be used
        with extreme care. Copper >sulfate is soluble in water. This high degree of
        solubility is the fundamental cause of toxicity problems, which copper
        sulfate can cause to all fruit crops. Fixed coppers have been >developed
        that are relatively insoluble and therefore less toxic to plants. However,
        fixed coppers can also result in phytotoxicity under certain conditions. The
        fungicidal activity of >copper is based on its ability to destroy proteins
        in plants. This is true for all plants, fungi, and fruit plants. When lime
        is combined with copper compounds, it reacts with the copper
        >making it more stable. Thus, copper compounds in the presence of lime would
        generally produce lower, more uniform concentrations of free copper, which
        in turn would be less apt >to injure plant tissues than if no lime were
        used. Because copper has the ability to kill all types of plant tissue, the
        use of copper fungicides carries with it the risk of causing injury to
        >fruit plants. Ideally, copper on the leaf or fruit surface should be high
        enough to kill the fungus or bacteria but low enough not to cause injury to
        the plant. Factors that can promote >injury include: failure to use enough
        lime; cold, wet weather conditions that apparently increase copper's
        solubility, allowing more into the plant and resulting in toxicity; and
        >application of excessive rates of copper. Even when no injury is evident on
        the plant, subtle effects of the copper on the plant may be occurring. In
        addition, to reduce growth and >yields, it has been shown that the use of
        copper fungicides can reduce the maturity of the fruit as well as that of
        the shoots. Copper fungicides can have subtle, chronic negative >impacts on
        fruit plants. Copper provides low to moderate control of many fungal and
        bacterial diseases. Fixed coppers, plus lime, are safer than Bordeaux. They
        may be used for >leaf curl control on stone fruits and pre- and postharvest
        leaf spot control on tart cherries. Copper compounds should not be applied
        in a postharvest spray without adding lime. If >copper is applied without
        lime, orchards will show toxicity symptoms such as chlorosis (yellowing),
        leaf drop on tart cherries, and necrosis (browning) on sweet cherries. If a
        >copper material is applied without lime and yellowing and leaf drop occur,
        an application of lime within 2 to 3 weeks after the copper application may
        prevent further yellowing and >leaf drop.


        I've used cardboard also this year to inhibit the growth of plants in an
        area I'm now preparing for winter veg. It has certainly worked well,
        allowing minimal 'weeding' before I seed the surface with things like
        spinach, chicory, lettuce etc. I declined the offer of manure earlier this
        year after it being suggested by Emilia that the best way to improve the
        fertility of the soil and keep it in balance was by simply using plants,
        just as happens in nature. I'd think you might very well be able to plant
        much of your land this winter with a cover crop that you could scythe and
        leave as a green mulch on the surface when you plant your veg next spring or
        even interplant amongst a cover crop such as white clover. You might want to
        look at http://www.sare.org/handbook/mccp2/index.htm for a cover crop that
        will suit your climate which, I suspect, is very similar to Southern
        California in this cover crop database (I've just remembered this one also,
        should just be what your looking for as it's aimed specifically at
        California http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/ccrop.exe). Have a look at
        that earlier discussion on this list (from message 330 the thread is called
        to souscayrous, emilia and all and then Soil Amendments).

        You seem to be taking a patient approach to your land so rather than go in
        spraying, see if you can't ameliorate the worst of your conditions by simply
        following nature's lead by rebuilding the natural fertility of your soil
        through plants. I'm about to build some raised beds for next years crops and
        I intend planting the beds this winter with cover crops to stop erosion,
        keep the soil loose, feed the soil microorganisms and build up plant
        available nutrients. Why not order Emilia's video (which I'm sure she has in
        Spanish and I know she has in English) and we can compare notes on progress
        and keep in contact with Emilia via this group to keep us on the right path.
        Whilst the beds take a little work to build and there is some weeding
        through the first couple of season's, once the beds are established you will
        have the soil in as natural and 'wild' a state as is possible and thus a
        healthy soil that produces nutritious crops that come to resist pests and
        diseases.

        Jamie
        Souscayrous



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:10 AM
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus



        Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and
        others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
        outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on
        what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry
        tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have
        impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the
        land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or
        clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The
        prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn,
        drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we
        started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to
        grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids
        were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels
        alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what
        happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my
        comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and
        noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering
        hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking
        that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal
        point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen
        dill get decimated in this fashion.
        We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought
        and drought prone areas.
        Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes
        unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
        Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes.
        I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive.
        Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
        I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
        Regards,
        Robin
      • RobinFernández-Medina
        Hello Jamie, Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
          Hello Jamie,
          Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little harsh too.
          Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was close to 34� and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
          Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
          Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
          Robin



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        • jamie
          Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe that grapes
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
            Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount
            sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe
            that grapes can be grown without any spraying at all (and also immensely
            gladdened). The sun and the aridity I can understand, vines are impressive
            in their ability to withstand poor conditions, how else could they still
            grow in the practically dead earth around here.


            The Synergistic Garden Video Tape By Emilia Hazelip
            Las Encantadas, BP 217, F-11306 Limoux-Cedex, France
            Tel/Fax 33+46-83-15-111
            emhaz@...

            Whilst the initial digging of the raised beds would not appear to initially
            favour Natural Farming practices, the actual effect of the raised beds is to
            ensure the fertility of the soil and then maintain it in a wild state. You
            can see photos of her raised beds and veg on Jim Bones' Seedballs site
            (http://www.seedballs.com/hazelip.html) and a useful cropping plan for the
            raised beds over their first three seasons (though being near Malaga you'll
            need to develop the plan to your semi-tropical climate from its temperate
            perspective).


            Jamie
            Souscayrous


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
            To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:15 PM
            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus




            Hello Jamie,
            Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all
            these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper
            sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am
            really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea
            given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled
            the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in
            erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It
            makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that
            word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of
            life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a
            result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little
            harsh too.
            Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major
            producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these
            moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was
            close to 34º and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am
            getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and
            every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
            Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and
            learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
            Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the
            Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
            Robin



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