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Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus

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  • Don Graves
    Hi Allan ... I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this Thurdsay Aug 5th In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 3, 2002
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      Hi Allan ...
      I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this
      Thurdsay Aug 5th

      In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza research & organic
      research, my observation
      is that both are mostly about (PROCESSes) = (understanding & maintaining
      soils & mycorrhizas)

      Mycorrhizas & Organics research attract very poor levels of scientific or
      technology research funding ...
      providing few REMEDIAL MYCORRHIZA ( PRODUCTS )
      aeroponic AM fungal spores
      seed-balls
      soil attached to fresh weed or crop roots from biologically diverse soils
      eg. under pasture / lawn (undisturbed)

      for use mainly in degraded & nutrient-'poor' soils

      ie. research without 'product development'
      = R without D
      R&D are almost bound togther
      more is the pity for the sake of planet Earth - (Gaea)

      there are very few mychorrhiza inoculation technologies
      & thus few 'development' opportunities for 'middle'-people to manufacture &
      sell nutrient & crop-protection products to so-called 'producers' or growers

      he she we ge can sense what was inherited free
      GAEA's soil is alive, Earth lives!


      we can manaaki (take care of) our whenua (land)
      treat vegetation like a korowai (cloak)
      or a living green skin
      mulch & (suitable) plants protect against bare soil surfaces ... thus
      reduce soil exposure to drying, & minimise wind & water erosion
      however, ... compared to bare soil surfaces, shaded soil surfaces under
      mulches / plants are slower to heat up at the beginning of Spring
      here & now in Nelson, southern-hemisphere South-Pacific Aotearoa (New
      Zealand) the Magnolia trees are in full spring bloom ... & life is truly
      great..

      There is more to wonder about
      than we can ever learn,
      ... awesome eh!



      appolls for any philosophy & poetry
      try my mycological (fungal) regards
      Don





      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Allan Balliett" <igg@...>
      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:53 PM
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


      > Robin -
      >
      > Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at
      http://www.sfi.com
      >
      >
      > Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
      > of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.
      >
      > What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
      > and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
      > The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
      > this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
      > brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
      > harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
      > predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
      > or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
      > the soil that plants evolved in actually had.
      >
      > It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.
      >
      > For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
      > speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
      > Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com
      >
      > Ask me if you want to know more
      >
      > -Allan
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • RobinFernández-Medina
      Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
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        Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn, drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen dill get decimated in this fashion.
        We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought and drought prone areas.
        Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
        Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes. I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive. Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
        I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
        Regards,
        Robin
        jamie wrote:Hello Robin,
        I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
        of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
        you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
        I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
        with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
        I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
        I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
        appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
        (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
        this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
        which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
        but if you have the brushwood it might help.

        Jamie
        Souscayrous

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Robin Fern�ndez-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


        >
        > Hello everyone,
        >
        > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
        fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
        Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
        importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
        impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
        Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
        in the whole subject.
        > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
        and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
        fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
        of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
        vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
        well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
        fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
        approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
        most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
        some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
        care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
        vegetable patches?
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Robin
        > Malaga, Spain
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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        >
        >
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      • Chris Sawyer
        If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
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          If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores and can even be used as a soil drench.
          Chris Sawyer
          www.jakesfarm.com
        • jamie
          Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just doing what it is
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
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            Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as
            indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just
            doing what it is supposed to do, decompose dying or unhealthy plants. To put
            it more simply it's not the fungus that is the problem. But then I think you
            probably know this already. But thinking like this will help you avoid
            spraying your veg with the copper sulphate that I'm sure is what your local
            viticulters are spraying on their crops. It does indeed work well against
            certain fungal and bacterial attacks such as mildew, however, copper enters
            the soil and then remains there, as the concentration increases through
            respraying it reaches a level of toxicity toward earthworms. Here is some
            more information on copper compounds and their effects on plants (sorry I
            don't have the www address);

            >copper compounds. Copper is a foliar fungicide with protective action.
            Copper compounds can be highly toxic to many fruit crops and must be used
            with extreme care. Copper >sulfate is soluble in water. This high degree of
            solubility is the fundamental cause of toxicity problems, which copper
            sulfate can cause to all fruit crops. Fixed coppers have been >developed
            that are relatively insoluble and therefore less toxic to plants. However,
            fixed coppers can also result in phytotoxicity under certain conditions. The
            fungicidal activity of >copper is based on its ability to destroy proteins
            in plants. This is true for all plants, fungi, and fruit plants. When lime
            is combined with copper compounds, it reacts with the copper
            >making it more stable. Thus, copper compounds in the presence of lime would
            generally produce lower, more uniform concentrations of free copper, which
            in turn would be less apt >to injure plant tissues than if no lime were
            used. Because copper has the ability to kill all types of plant tissue, the
            use of copper fungicides carries with it the risk of causing injury to
            >fruit plants. Ideally, copper on the leaf or fruit surface should be high
            enough to kill the fungus or bacteria but low enough not to cause injury to
            the plant. Factors that can promote >injury include: failure to use enough
            lime; cold, wet weather conditions that apparently increase copper's
            solubility, allowing more into the plant and resulting in toxicity; and
            >application of excessive rates of copper. Even when no injury is evident on
            the plant, subtle effects of the copper on the plant may be occurring. In
            addition, to reduce growth and >yields, it has been shown that the use of
            copper fungicides can reduce the maturity of the fruit as well as that of
            the shoots. Copper fungicides can have subtle, chronic negative >impacts on
            fruit plants. Copper provides low to moderate control of many fungal and
            bacterial diseases. Fixed coppers, plus lime, are safer than Bordeaux. They
            may be used for >leaf curl control on stone fruits and pre- and postharvest
            leaf spot control on tart cherries. Copper compounds should not be applied
            in a postharvest spray without adding lime. If >copper is applied without
            lime, orchards will show toxicity symptoms such as chlorosis (yellowing),
            leaf drop on tart cherries, and necrosis (browning) on sweet cherries. If a
            >copper material is applied without lime and yellowing and leaf drop occur,
            an application of lime within 2 to 3 weeks after the copper application may
            prevent further yellowing and >leaf drop.


            I've used cardboard also this year to inhibit the growth of plants in an
            area I'm now preparing for winter veg. It has certainly worked well,
            allowing minimal 'weeding' before I seed the surface with things like
            spinach, chicory, lettuce etc. I declined the offer of manure earlier this
            year after it being suggested by Emilia that the best way to improve the
            fertility of the soil and keep it in balance was by simply using plants,
            just as happens in nature. I'd think you might very well be able to plant
            much of your land this winter with a cover crop that you could scythe and
            leave as a green mulch on the surface when you plant your veg next spring or
            even interplant amongst a cover crop such as white clover. You might want to
            look at http://www.sare.org/handbook/mccp2/index.htm for a cover crop that
            will suit your climate which, I suspect, is very similar to Southern
            California in this cover crop database (I've just remembered this one also,
            should just be what your looking for as it's aimed specifically at
            California http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/ccrop.exe). Have a look at
            that earlier discussion on this list (from message 330 the thread is called
            to souscayrous, emilia and all and then Soil Amendments).

            You seem to be taking a patient approach to your land so rather than go in
            spraying, see if you can't ameliorate the worst of your conditions by simply
            following nature's lead by rebuilding the natural fertility of your soil
            through plants. I'm about to build some raised beds for next years crops and
            I intend planting the beds this winter with cover crops to stop erosion,
            keep the soil loose, feed the soil microorganisms and build up plant
            available nutrients. Why not order Emilia's video (which I'm sure she has in
            Spanish and I know she has in English) and we can compare notes on progress
            and keep in contact with Emilia via this group to keep us on the right path.
            Whilst the beds take a little work to build and there is some weeding
            through the first couple of season's, once the beds are established you will
            have the soil in as natural and 'wild' a state as is possible and thus a
            healthy soil that produces nutritious crops that come to resist pests and
            diseases.

            Jamie
            Souscayrous



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
            To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:10 AM
            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus



            Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and
            others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
            outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on
            what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry
            tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have
            impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the
            land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or
            clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The
            prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn,
            drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we
            started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to
            grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids
            were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels
            alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what
            happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my
            comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and
            noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering
            hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking
            that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal
            point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen
            dill get decimated in this fashion.
            We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought
            and drought prone areas.
            Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes
            unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
            Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes.
            I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive.
            Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
            I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
            Regards,
            Robin
          • RobinFernández-Medina
            Hello Jamie, Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
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              Hello Jamie,
              Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little harsh too.
              Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was close to 34� and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
              Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
              Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
              Robin



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            • jamie
              Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe that grapes
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
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                Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount
                sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe
                that grapes can be grown without any spraying at all (and also immensely
                gladdened). The sun and the aridity I can understand, vines are impressive
                in their ability to withstand poor conditions, how else could they still
                grow in the practically dead earth around here.


                The Synergistic Garden Video Tape By Emilia Hazelip
                Las Encantadas, BP 217, F-11306 Limoux-Cedex, France
                Tel/Fax 33+46-83-15-111
                emhaz@...

                Whilst the initial digging of the raised beds would not appear to initially
                favour Natural Farming practices, the actual effect of the raised beds is to
                ensure the fertility of the soil and then maintain it in a wild state. You
                can see photos of her raised beds and veg on Jim Bones' Seedballs site
                (http://www.seedballs.com/hazelip.html) and a useful cropping plan for the
                raised beds over their first three seasons (though being near Malaga you'll
                need to develop the plan to your semi-tropical climate from its temperate
                perspective).


                Jamie
                Souscayrous


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:15 PM
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus




                Hello Jamie,
                Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all
                these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper
                sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am
                really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea
                given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled
                the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in
                erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It
                makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that
                word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of
                life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a
                result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little
                harsh too.
                Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major
                producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these
                moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was
                close to 34º and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am
                getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and
                every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and
                learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the
                Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                Robin



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