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Re:Spirtuality and natural farming

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  • michael hollihn
    thank you cm for your words -- michael hollihn, british columbia, www.michaelhollihn.wordpress.com (bioregional timber frames) www.kettleriverfood.ning.com
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 31, 2009
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      thank you cm for your words

      --
      michael hollihn,
      british columbia,
      www.michaelhollihn.wordpress.com (bioregional timber frames)
      www.kettleriverfood.ning.com (building food security in the kettle
      River watershed)
      'Be the change that you want to see' ghandi
    • Dieter Brand
      Nandan,   ...   Most crops can only be grown during a limited period of time.  For example, you cannot grow rice in the winter. Here, farmers sow wheat
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 8, 2009
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        Nandan,
         
        You wrote:
        >Even though seeds can germinate from the plowed
        >soil, it will require some moisture for growing. If this
        >is dependent on rain, then why not wait for the rain
        >and then sow the seeds, without plowing?
         
        Most crops can only be grown during a limited period of time.  For example, you cannot grow rice in the winter. Here, farmers sow wheat after the dry season in October/November for harvesting in June.  They can still sow in mid-December, but January is definitely too late to grow a crop before the next dry season.  Sometimes (for example the last 2 years), there is hardly any rain before January.  Without plowing you loose all your seeds and harvest nothing.
         
        During the cool season there is always enough soil moisture for crops to grow with the moisture from the soil when the soil has been loosened by plowing and the weeds have been plowed under.  Without plowing, the seeds, with or without seedballs, will not germinate without sufficient rain on the compacted soil surface. Even if they germinate they will have difficulty growing in the compacted soil and in competition with the existing weeds.
         
        >In your experience, whic type
        >of seed require the seed bed preparation?
         
        10 years ago, I started growing organic carrots.  Since I switched to Natural Farming 6 years ago, I have had almost no carrots at all.  I have tested most methods imaginable without success.  Now, I rake back the mulch, make furrows with a hoe and loosen the soil down to the clay.  Many tiny seeds that take a long time to germinate pose similar problems.
         
        >I have seen upto 12 acre coconut orchards, completely
        >done using Fukuoka's method, so as such I don't find
        >any issue it extending it further. Are you talking about
        >grains, vegetables here?
         
        It is fairly easy to grow orchards without plowing and without manure.  My family, like all others in the village have always grown orchards like that.  This is just the traditional way of farming.  My grandfather didn’t even own pruning scissors
         
        Natural Farming, like all farming, relates first of all to growing staple food crops like rice and wheat.  That is also what Fukuoka means by farming.  You can live on rice but not on oranges.  Staple food crops have to be the basis of human nutrient especially in cold and temperate climates.  One of my neighbors is a raw food fanatic who moved to Portugal in the hope of getting fresh fruits all years round.  But even here that is not very reasonable.  He is originally of a strong disposition, so he is holding up well, but he needs to spend a fortune on dental bills because eating only fruits his teeth start to fall out.  He is already retired, so I hope his bones will keep for a few more years as long as he needs them, but he always feels cold even in the summer.
         
        Dieter Brand
        Portugal


        --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:

        From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 3:45 AM






        Dieter,

        Please find a few questions below.

        Regards,
        Nandan

        --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com> wrote:
        From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
        To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 4:51 AM

        Jacek,

         

        700 mm precipitation/ year isn’t an awful lot, but for the cool or temperate regions of the World it is plenty to grow most things.  The question really is: when does it rain how much?  Is there enough rain when you sow your crops?  You will find that your neighbors can grow wheat even when it doesn’t rain.  The seeds which are in direct soil contact will germinate with the humidity from the plowed soil even without rain.  Without plowing your seeds won’t germinate unless there is a substantial amount of rain.Nandan - Even though seeds can germinate from the plowed soil, it will require some moisture for growing. If this is dependent on rain, then why not wait for the rain and then sow the seeds, without plowing? 
        I have seen people wait for the first rain and then sowing the seeds.

        Digging out weeds can be done in the garden, but isn’t feasible in the field.  I remove some weeds, like quack grass, with a spading fork from the garden soil. In principle we avoid plowing or other forms of soil disturbance in Natural Farming, but you will find that some seeds won’t grow without a degree of seedbed preparation as in traditional farming. Nandan - In your experience, whic type of seed require the seed bed preparation?
        Some people think that you can plow initially to establish a cover crop like clover and then live happily ever after.  Depending on conditions things may not be quite as simple as that.  Weeds have a tendency to always come back.
        You will need to find out what type of clover performs how under your conditions.  After the winter, will it grow back from the roots or will it reseed?  Sowing new clover every year is going to be too expensive.  If it does grow back, will it grow before the weeds? … Check germination temperatures of seeds.  Most grain crops germinate at fairly low temperatures as soon as the soil starts to warm up.

         

        You could sow different types of clover on separate plots to compare how each performs, but I wouldn’t mix them on the same plot.  In principal, it is best to mix one legume with one grain crop.  If you are going to use your grain crop as cover crop you could mix it with vetch, but if you are going to harvest the grains, the vetch may get in the way, except for some wild low growing varieties perhaps.

         

        In Germany, there is a growing demand for organic spelt generated in part by a renewed interest for the thoughts of Hildegard von Bingen, who considered that spelt is about the healthiest thing anyone can eat.  This will assure that you can sell a range of spelt products at a premium.  On the downside, yield is probably lower than with modern varieties of wheat. 

         

        I think it best to note that neither Bonfils’ nor Fukuoka’s methods are used in commercial farming. 
        Nandan - I have seen upto 12 acre coconut orchards, completely done using Fukuoka's method, so as such I don't find any issue it extending it further. Are you talking about grains, vegetables here?
        A successful adaption of Natural Farming either for self-sufficiency or for commercial operations hinges on the farmers ability to make necessary adjustments.
         

        Dieter Brand

        Portugal










        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Monie
        Hi Dieter,   You are correct in stating that an all raw fruit diet will eventually destroy a person s teeth. This is one of the reasons that Cherie Soria in
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 8, 2009
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          Hi Dieter,
           
          You are correct in stating that an all raw fruit diet will eventually destroy a person's teeth.
          This is one of the reasons that Cherie Soria in her new raw foods book (The Raw Food Revolution Diet) counsels against pure fruitarian diets and incorportates greens, sprouted grains, and beans into the raw vegan recipies. Kale, yu choy (choy sum), collards, and mustard greens, especially should be consumed daily to bring calcium levels up to standard. Fruitarian diets are far too high in fructose and their glycemic index is too high for optimal health.  Matters get even worse when raw foodies juice the fruit; the resultant "smoothie" is little more than fiberless sugar water with disembodied vitamins and photochemicals suspended within. A steady diet of smoothies can also bring on or exacerbate retinal diabetes. At the very least, raw foodie advocates need some sprouted grains and beans (soft grains like buckwheat and tender legumes like snowpeas are good candidates) to lower their glycemic load, stabilize their blood sugar, and provide sufficient
          amino acids. A little flaxmeal each day also provides Omega 3 lipids, which are likely to be lacking in an all fruit diet.
           
          Bob Monie--long-term vegan (3/4 raw)
          New Orleans, La
          Zone 8
          --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

          From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 4:02 AM








          Nandan,
           
          You wrote:
          >Even though seeds can germinate from the plowed
          >soil, it will require some moisture for growing. If this
          >is dependent on rain, then why not wait for the rain
          >and then sow the seeds, without plowing?
           
          Most crops can only be grown during a limited period of time.  For example, you cannot grow rice in the winter. Here, farmers sow wheat after the dry season in October/November for harvesting in June.  They can still sow in mid-December, but January is definitely too late to grow a crop before the next dry season.  Sometimes (for example the last 2 years), there is hardly any rain before January.  Without plowing you loose all your seeds and harvest nothing.
           
          During the cool season there is always enough soil moisture for crops to grow with the moisture from the soil when the soil has been loosened by plowing and the weeds have been plowed under.  Without plowing, the seeds, with or without seedballs, will not germinate without sufficient rain on the compacted soil surface. Even if they germinate they will have difficulty growing in the compacted soil and in competition with the existing weeds.
           
          >In your experience, whic type
          >of seed require the seed bed preparation?
           
          10 years ago, I started growing organic carrots.  Since I switched to Natural Farming 6 years ago, I have had almost no carrots at all.  I have tested most methods imaginable without success.  Now, I rake back the mulch, make furrows with a hoe and loosen the soil down to the clay.  Many tiny seeds that take a long time to germinate pose similar problems.
           
          >I have seen upto 12 acre coconut orchards, completely
          >done using Fukuoka's method, so as such I don't find
          >any issue it extending it further. Are you talking about
          >grains, vegetables here?
           
          It is fairly easy to grow orchards without plowing and without manure.  My family, like all others in the village have always grown orchards like that.  This is just the traditional way of farming.  My grandfather didn’t even own pruning scissors
           
          Natural Farming, like all farming, relates first of all to growing staple food crops like rice and wheat.  That is also what Fukuoka means by farming.  You can live on rice but not on oranges.  Staple food crops have to be the basis of human nutrient especially in cold and temperate climates.  One of my neighbors is a raw food fanatic who moved to Portugal in the hope of getting fresh fruits all years round.  But even here that is not very reasonable.  He is originally of a strong disposition, so he is holding up well, but he needs to spend a fortune on dental bills because eating only fruits his teeth start to fall out.  He is already retired, so I hope his bones will keep for a few more years as long as he needs them, but he always feels cold even in the summer.
           
          Dieter Brand
          Portugal

          --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@ yahoo.com>
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
          To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 3:45 AM

          Dieter,

          Please find a few questions below.

          Regards,
          Nandan

          --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com> wrote:
          From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com>
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
          To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 4:51 AM

          Jacek,

           

          700 mm precipitation/ year isn’t an awful lot, but for the cool or temperate regions of the World it is plenty to grow most things.  The question really is: when does it rain how much?  Is there enough rain when you sow your crops?  You will find that your neighbors can grow wheat even when it doesn’t rain.  The seeds which are in direct soil contact will germinate with the humidity from the plowed soil even without rain.  Without plowing your seeds won’t germinate unless there is a substantial amount of rain.Nandan - Even though seeds can germinate from the plowed soil, it will require some moisture for growing. If this is dependent on rain, then why not wait for the rain and then sow the seeds, without plowing? 
          I have seen people wait for the first rain and then sowing the seeds.

          Digging out weeds can be done in the garden, but isn’t feasible in the field.  I remove some weeds, like quack grass, with a spading fork from the garden soil. In principle we avoid plowing or other forms of soil disturbance in Natural Farming, but you will find that some seeds won’t grow without a degree of seedbed preparation as in traditional farming. Nandan - In your experience, whic type of seed require the seed bed preparation?
          Some people think that you can plow initially to establish a cover crop like clover and then live happily ever after.  Depending on conditions things may not be quite as simple as that.  Weeds have a tendency to always come back.
          You will need to find out what type of clover performs how under your conditions.  After the winter, will it grow back from the roots or will it reseed?  Sowing new clover every year is going to be too expensive.  If it does grow back, will it grow before the weeds? … Check germination temperatures of seeds.  Most grain crops germinate at fairly low temperatures as soon as the soil starts to warm up.

           

          You could sow different types of clover on separate plots to compare how each performs, but I wouldn’t mix them on the same plot.  In principal, it is best to mix one legume with one grain crop.  If you are going to use your grain crop as cover crop you could mix it with vetch, but if you are going to harvest the grains, the vetch may get in the way, except for some wild low growing varieties perhaps.

           

          In Germany, there is a growing demand for organic spelt generated in part by a renewed interest for the thoughts of Hildegard von Bingen, who considered that spelt is about the healthiest thing anyone can eat.  This will assure that you can sell a range of spelt products at a premium.  On the downside, yield is probably lower than with modern varieties of wheat. 

           

          I think it best to note that neither Bonfils’ nor Fukuoka’s methods are used in commercial farming. 
          Nandan - I have seen upto 12 acre coconut orchards, completely done using Fukuoka's method, so as such I don't find any issue it extending it further. Are you talking about grains, vegetables here?
          A successful adaption of Natural Farming either for self-sufficiency or for commercial operations hinges on the farmers ability to make necessary adjustments.
           

          Dieter Brand

          Portugal

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Steven McCollough
          To all, I am not sure I agree with these blanket statements. It is my understanding that one or two pieces of fruit every ninety minutes keeps the blood sugar
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 9, 2009
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            To all,

            I am not sure I agree with these blanket statements. It is my
            understanding that one or two pieces of fruit every ninety minutes keeps
            the blood sugar level in balance. Additionally it is my understanding
            that lack of minerals stems from eating mostly temperate fruits, not
            tropic fruits.

            Steve UP of Michigan

            Robert Monie wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi Dieter,
            >
            > You are correct in stating that an all raw fruit diet will eventually
            > destroy a person's teeth.
            >
            > __._
            >
          • grannis04
            - To all, Here s my take on nutrition and diets, I have found that excellent health comes to us through the land we walk upon. If we eat as many natural wild
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 9, 2009
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              -


              To all,
              Here's my take on nutrition and diets, I have found that excellent health comes to us through the land we walk upon. If we eat as many natural wild foods as can be gathered in our environment we will be well on the way to good health. Start with dandelions, do some research, ask indigenous people. The next level of food can come from our plants that we choose to grow. The NF is on the right path because it tries to imitate the way wild foods grow in Nature, their "true nature". If we can provide ourselves with the majority of food in these ways good health will result. If you still feel of poor health there are the levels of herbal sources that can benefit. Again look in your own backyard for health and wellness. Forgive my preaching. Steve G.



















              -- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Steven McCollough <steb@...> wrote:
              >
              > To all,
              >
              > I am not sure I agree with these blanket statements. It is my
              > understanding that one or two pieces of fruit every ninety minutes keeps
              > the blood sugar level in balance. Additionally it is my understanding
              > that lack of minerals stems from eating mostly temperate fruits, not
              > tropic fruits.
              >
              > Steve UP of Michigan
              >
              > Robert Monie wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Dieter,
              > >
              > > You are correct in stating that an all raw fruit diet will eventually
              > > destroy a person's teeth.
              > >
              > > __._
              > >
              >
            • Robert Monie
              Steven,   The beauty of eating green leafy vegetables is that they provide calcium, boron, magnesium and other minerals in just the right proportions needed
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 9, 2009
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                Steven,
                 
                The beauty of eating green leafy vegetables is that they provide calcium, boron, magnesium and other minerals in just the right proportions needed to maintain or increase bone density and bone health without the unnecessary burden of added sugar found in fruits.  All greens also score at or near the bottom of glycemic load index.  Although fruits in moderation are an essential part of a balanced diet, and they do contain some calcium (blackberries for example are a decent calcium source) they lack chlorophyll; few vegans who are also registered dietiticans would ever recommend an all fruit diet as protection from osteoporisis or dental deterioration.  Where is the evidence that "tropical fruit" can substitute for greens in the vegan diet?  Do you know of any study in a reputable journal that shows this? A study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition ["Dietary Calcium: adequacy of a vegetarian diet," by CM Weaver and KL Plawecki, 1994;59
                (suppl)
                1238S ff.] recommends regular consumption of bok choy, broccoli, collards, Chinese cabbage, kale, mustard greens, and okra for calcium sufficiency, not an exclusive diet of fruit, tropical or otherwise. In dialog between vegan nutritionists and non-vegan, one of the main points of agreement is usually the desirability of including ample amounts of green leafy vegetables in the diet. There are few medical conditions that would contraindicate this advice. Moreover, green leafy vegetables do not increase tryglyceride levels as excessive consumption of fruit and fruit juices often do. The basis of a rational vegan diet (raw or cooked) is a combination of (usually gluten-free) grains, legumes, vegetables (especially green leafy) and fruits, with some attention to adequate Omega-3 consumption from flax or walnuts--not a strictly fruitarian selection.
                 
                Bob Monie
                Vegan since the late 1970's
                New Orleans, LA
                Zone 8
                 
                 

                --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Steven McCollough <steb@...> wrote:

                From: Steven McCollough <steb@...>
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 9:30 AM








                To all,

                I am not sure I agree with these blanket statements. It is my
                understanding that one or two pieces of fruit every ninety minutes keeps
                the blood sugar level in balance. Additionally it is my understanding
                that lack of minerals stems from eating mostly temperate fruits, not
                tropic fruits.

                Steve UP of Michigan

                Robert Monie wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Dieter,
                >
                > You are correct in stating that an all raw fruit diet will eventually
                > destroy a person's teeth.
                >
                > __._
                >















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dieter Brand
                Countless nutritional theories have come and gone in the last 40 years; each one reversing the claims of the previous one.  First we had to eat a lot of
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 9, 2009
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                  Countless nutritional theories have come and gone in the last 40 years; each one reversing the claims of the previous one.  First we had to eat a lot of protein, then protein was out and we were told to eat fibers, then it was vitamins which made a lot of money for vitamin manufacturers.  When we grow older we are to get selenium, fish oil and omega-something.  And let’s not forget the ascorbic acids and the flavonoides and soon we will all need to get a PhD in chemistry just to read the names of all the fancy compounds we absolutely need to imbibe.  This is undoubtedly very good business, but I fear people will make themselves sick just by thinking about it.

                  Human nutrition and soil nutrition are closely linked: Shindo-fuji “body and soil are not two” as they say in Japan.  What we need is healthy soil to grow healthy food for feeding healthy people.  According to H.P. Rusch, this is the “cycle of living substances”.   There is no need for dead chemicals, there is no need to analyze the whole into ever smaller components and then to try and outsmart nature by recombining them according to the theory currently in vogue.  Here is another quote from Fukuoka:

                  hazukashii no ha   ningen bakari ga nisemono-zukuri

                  which I translated as

                  Shameful is that only humans produce fakes.

                  All our attempts to reproduce life are a complete failure and result in sick clones that can barely stay alive.  I´m currently reading Kawaguchi´s tae naru hatake ni tachite which is considered his opus magnum among Natural Farmers in Japan.  It is written for a Japanese audience and will probably not find a following in the West.  His rejection of science is even more radical than that of Fukuoka, who was after all a scientist himself.  Kawaguchi is from a farming family and an artist by training.  He tells us to kagaku shinai: do not think scientifically or do not use science to analyze the whole.  Apart from farming, he has a strong interest in traditional Chinese medicine.  He illustrates his rejection of science by an example of a drug of Chinese medicine as “a living whole with innumerable components” which is analyzed by science to extract just the effective component.  If I have a little time I may translate the entire passage as I
                  found the reasoning rather convincing.

                  Back to food.  My personal preference is a common sense diet mainly based on staple grains followed by fresh vegetables, a little fruits, some fish, very little meat and milk products and very little sweets.  Fresh vegetables come directly from the garden.  Variety is of great importance, in the winter we get 5 to 10 ingredients per meal from the garden.  In the summer we can get 10 to 20 ingredients per meal directly from the garden, all grown without fertilizers and of course without chemicals.  We do eat a good deal of raw food, but I find a diet entirely based on raw food too one-sided.

                  The staple food rice is also the basis of macrobiotic cooking and of the traditional Japanese diet.  Japanese still have one of the longest life-spans of all people on the planet.  Old people often stay fit for very long.  I have seen old Japanese men, still raised on a traditional diet, getting up from a cross-legged position on the tatami floor to a standing position without using their hands to prop themselves up.  This is a feat many younger people in the West are incapable of.  The health and longevity of Japanese is due to a traditional diet based primarily on rice, some vegetables, some fish and very little meat.  Tofu made from soya beans is also very good.

                  Dieter Brand
                  Portugal


                  --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:

                  From: Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 7:34 PM








                  Steven,
                   
                  The beauty of eating green leafy vegetables is that they provide calcium, boron, magnesium and other minerals in just the right proportions needed to maintain or increase bone density and bone health without the unnecessary burden of added sugar found in fruits.  All greens also score at or near the bottom of glycemic load index.  Although fruits in moderation are an essential part of a balanced diet, and they do contain some calcium (blackberries for example are a decent calcium source) they lack chlorophyll; few vegans who are also registered dietiticans would ever recommend an all fruit diet as protection from osteoporisis or dental deterioration.  Where is the evidence that "tropical fruit" can substitute for greens in the vegan diet?  Do you know of any study in a reputable journal that shows this? A study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition ["Dietary Calcium: adequacy of a vegetarian diet," by CM Weaver and KL Plawecki, 1994;59
                  (suppl)
                  1238S ff.] recommends regular consumption of bok choy, broccoli, collards, Chinese cabbage, kale, mustard greens, and okra for calcium sufficiency, not an exclusive diet of fruit, tropical or otherwise. In dialog between vegan nutritionists and non-vegan, one of the main points of agreement is usually the desirability of including ample amounts of green leafy vegetables in the diet. There are few medical conditions that would contraindicate this advice. Moreover, green leafy vegetables do not increase tryglyceride levels as excessive consumption of fruit and fruit juices often do. The basis of a rational vegan diet (raw or cooked) is a combination of (usually gluten-free) grains, legumes, vegetables (especially green leafy) and fruits, with some attention to adequate Omega-3 consumption from flax or walnuts--not a strictly fruitarian selection.
                   
                  Bob Monie
                  Vegan since the late 1970's
                  New Orleans, LA
                  Zone 8
                   
                   

                  --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Steven McCollough <steb@centurytel. net> wrote:

                  From: Steven McCollough <steb@centurytel. net>
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
                  To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 9:30 AM

                  To all,

                  I am not sure I agree with these blanket statements. It is my
                  understanding that one or two pieces of fruit every ninety minutes keeps
                  the blood sugar level in balance. Additionally it is my understanding
                  that lack of minerals stems from eating mostly temperate fruits, not
                  tropic fruits.

                  Steve UP of Michigan

                  Robert Monie wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Dieter,
                  >
                  > You are correct in stating that an all raw fruit diet will eventually
                  > destroy a person's teeth.
                  >
                  > __._
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • La Clarine Farm
                  Dieter, you need to read Michael Pollan s book in Defense of Food , which pretty much shoots the science of nutritionalism full of holes. Great book. -Hank
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 10, 2009
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                    Dieter, you need to read Michael Pollan's book "in Defense of Food",
                    which pretty much shoots the "science" of nutritionalism full of holes.
                    Great book.

                    -Hank

                    Dieter Brand wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Countless nutritional theories have come and gone in the last 40
                    > years; each one reversing the claims of the previous one. First we
                    > had to eat a lot of protein, then protein was out and we were told to
                    > eat fibers, then it was vitamins which made a lot of money for vitamin
                    > manufacturers. When we grow older we are to get selenium, fish oil
                    > and omega-something. And let’s not forget the ascorbic acids and the
                    > flavonoides and soon we will all need to get a PhD in chemistry just
                    > to read the names of all the fancy compounds we absolutely need to
                    > imbibe. This is undoubtedly very good business, but I fear people
                    > will make themselves sick just by thinking about it.
                    >
                  • Gloria C. Baikauskas
                    Hey Bob! I was wondering, since brassicas for the most part won t grow in the heat of a Texas summer, and I am assuming possibly in Louisiana, if you have
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 11, 2009
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                      Hey Bob!

                      I was wondering, since brassicas for the most part won't grow in the heat of a Texas summer, and I am assuming possibly in Louisiana, if you have some how gotten around that to grow them anyway? Are there varieties of the wonderful bok choy that will grow through the heat?

                      Gloria, Texas
                      USA
                    • Robert Monie
                      Hi Gloria,   The first place to try to find Bok Choy or Pak Choy seeds that can tolerate your climate is Asian markets near your home. Are there any
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 11, 2009
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                        Hi Gloria,
                         
                        The first place to try to find Bok Choy or Pak Choy seeds that can tolerate your climate is Asian markets near your home. Are there any Vietnamese, Korean, Cambodian, Chinese, Thai, Hmong, Japanese, Laotian, etc. markets nearby?   In New Orleans, there are markets to the east of the city where adaptable seeds and seedlings can be had. How different is your climate from that of Austin and Houston?  There are plenty of Vietnamese there who have found varieties that survive. Where you live is probably even hotter and drier. The heat in New Orleans is offset by relatively high humidity, so the plant may be burnt but not parched. I'm not sure any variety of the B. Choy or P. Choy can take both extreme heat and dryness, but you could try the following commercially available varieties:
                         
                        From Agro Haitai, a Canadian company that ships seeds to the US:
                        (go to their website at http://www.agrohaitai.com)
                         
                        Green Pak Choy VG004 "Luxiu"
                         
                        Green Pak Choy FG009 "Yuni 1"
                         
                        White Pac Choy VGj020 "Happy Tropic"
                         
                        White Pak Choy VGj005 "South White"
                         
                        also any type the Asians describe as "tropical." 
                         
                        Maybe what you really need, though, is "Desert" bok choy, not tropical!
                        Don't know if such a species exists. Also see the Evergreen Seeds website.
                        They specialize in Asian seeds.
                         
                        Bob Monie
                        New Orleans, La
                        Zone 8


                        --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Gloria C. Baikauskas <gloriawb@...> wrote:

                        From: Gloria C. Baikauskas <gloriawb@...>
                        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: new guy, introduction and questions abut grain growing
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 9:37 AM








                        Hey Bob!

                        I was wondering, since brassicas for the most part won't grow in the heat of a Texas summer, and I am assuming possibly in Louisiana, if you have some how gotten around that to grow them anyway? Are there varieties of the wonderful bok choy that will grow through the heat?

                        Gloria, Texas
                        USA
















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Gloria C. Baikauskas
                        Yes, Bob. In Arlington there is a large Vietnamese market complex. I will look there first. I am going to save the links you mentioned, too. Thanks! Gloria,
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 11, 2009
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                          Yes, Bob. In Arlington there is a large Vietnamese market complex. I will look there first. I am going to save the links you mentioned, too.

                          Thanks!

                          Gloria, Texas
                          USA

                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Gloria,
                          >  
                          > The first place to try to find Bok Choy or Pak Choy seeds that can tolerate your climate is Asian markets near your home. Are there any Vietnamese, Korean, Cambodian, Chinese, Thai, Hmong, Japanese, Laotian, etc. markets nearby?   In New Orleans, there are markets to the east of the city where adaptable seeds and seedlings can be had. How different is your climate from that of Austin and Houston?  There are plenty of Vietnamese there who have found varieties that survive. Where you live is probably even hotter and drier. The heat in New Orleans is offset by relatively high humidity, so the plant may be burnt but not parched. I'm not sure any variety of the B. Choy or P. Choy can take both extreme heat and dryness, but you could try the following commercially available varieties:
                          >  
                          > From Agro Haitai, a Canadian company that ships seeds to the US:
                          > (go to their website at http://www.agrohaitai.com)
                          >  
                          > Green Pak Choy VG004 "Luxiu"
                          >  
                          > Green Pak Choy FG009 "Yuni 1"
                          >  
                          > White Pac Choy VGj020 "Happy Tropic"
                          >  
                          > White Pak Choy VGj005 "South White"
                          >  
                          > also any type the Asians describe as "tropical." 
                          >  
                          > Maybe what you really need, though, is "Desert" bok choy, not tropical!
                          > Don't know if such a species exists. Also see the Evergreen Seeds website.
                          > They specialize in Asian seeds.
                          >  
                          > Bob Monie
                          > New Orleans, La
                          > Zone 8
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Gloria C. Baikauskas <gloriawb@...> wrote:
                          >
                        • Jeff
                          -hey Bob, I was wondering what you could tell me about the Mikhail system of soil management I ran across it on the web the other day... It appears to be a
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 11, 2009
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                            -hey Bob,

                            I was wondering what you could tell me about
                            \the Mikhail system of soil management
                            I ran across it on the web the other day...
                            It appears to be a recent Austrailian/ semi-holistic
                            invention...
                          • Robert Monie
                            Hi Jeff,   I have been planning to read Mikhail s book but stilll haven t had time. From what I ve seen, he has a few ideas long known to landscapers and
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 15, 2009
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                              Hi Jeff,
                               
                              I have been planning to read Mikhail's book but stilll haven't had time. From what I've seen, he has a few ideas long known to landscapers and organic gardeners such as composting, green manuring, and amending with gypsum and other slow-decomposing organic/mineral materials. Like most business promoters, he tends to make too much of his "discoveries" and oversells his products, including soil testing. If you want to compost, green manure, and use organic additives, I think Steve Solomon's advice in "Gardening When It Really Counts" is probably just as useful and much less expensive.
                               
                              Mikhail does seem to stress soil texture more, but I am not convinced from reading a few short articles about his methods that he either 1) understands soil stucture the way masters like Robert Ellis and Newman Turner did, or 2) that he is really up the latest theories of what makes soil "tick"; ie, glomalin aggregation. Soil texture or cohesion certainly is a major component of fertility, because soil has to be both "open" to moisture and air and also "connected" enough for microbes to adhere to it and the roots of the plants. No doubt communication systems at the root level require some kind of connectivity between soil particles, root hairs, associated bacteria and fungal hyphae for nutrient exchange and symbiotic processes to occur. This could not happen either in completely compacted soil or in a disconnected atomistic pile of soil powder particles.
                               
                              Pro landscapers know the value of naturally textured ("hairy" if you will) materials like peat moss and coir fiber.  These are quite coherent materials, unified in a matrix yet not so densely packed as to block moisture and air. The common landscape blend of peat and/or coir, along with vermiculine and perlite is a very intelligent (if artificial and perhaps unsustainable) matrix for growing, often preferable to the "natural" soil in the area.
                               
                              When some of the old "ley" masters selected hairy-rooted grasses for their pastures, they intended the fibrous roots of the plants to transform the soil from clay or compaction on the one hand or sandy powder on the other, to a natural peat and coir-like texture. This transformation takes some very powerful fibrous root mass and several years to occur. The favorite plant of both Ellis and Turner, right at the top of their "wish" list for a ley was Dactylis glomerata orchard grass. The roots of this grass form a network that glues or agglomerates soil particles to it without binding them too tightly. My Vetiver work in somewhat the same way.  So does Indian grass and switch grass, and so does crested wheatgrass (which hs recently been shown to raise glomalin levels markedly).  Mikhail seems to be aware of some of this but rather vaguely.  He doesn't see either the connection of fibrous root mass to soil texture as clearly as Ellis and Turner did or
                              the way that things like crested wheatgrass and switchgrass increase glomlin nearly enough to please me. But maybe I need to read his book.
                               
                              When I do, I'll have more to say.
                               
                              Bob Monie
                              New Orleans, LA
                              Zone 8
                               
                               

                              --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Jeff <shultonus@...> wrote:

                              From: Jeff <shultonus@...>
                              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Bok choy in heat
                              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 9:48 PM








                              -hey Bob,

                              I was wondering what you could tell me about
                              \the Mikhail system of soil management
                              I ran across it on the web the other day...
                              It appears to be a recent Austrailian/ semi-holistic
                              invention...
















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