Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

On Fungus

Expand Messages
  • RobinFern�ndez-Medina
    Hello everyone, It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
      Hello everyone,

      It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested in the whole subject.
      Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method, and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However, fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though, most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my vegetable patches?

      Regards,

      Robin
      Malaga, Spain



      ---------------------------------
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Don Graves
      Hi Robin Fungi & plants are commonly generally regarded as not a good thing... this is in part because there are a significant numbers of parasitic fungi, &
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
        Hi Robin
        Fungi & plants are commonly generally regarded as not a good thing...
        this is in part because there are a significant numbers of 'parasitic'
        fungi, & 'pathogenic' (disease-causing) fungi associated with poor plant
        health , reduced vigour, poor harvest yields & storage

        There are also many many fungi involved in 'rotting' / 'decomposing' or
        'saprotrophic' fungi.
        There are some decomposing fungi that may also be capable of forming
        beneficial symbioses with woody plants

        However, ... the co-evolutionary plant advantages of endo-mycorrhizas may be
        presumed to have been ever since plants first began colonising relatively
        droughted dryland soils (~450 Million years ago)
        [ie
        improved drought tolerance
        increased plant availability of soil nutrients (eg. Phosphate & Zinc)
        in exchange for plant derived energy deposited into soil fung & other soil
        organisms;
        ... additionally soil-aggregation is promoted by mycorrhizal soil-hyphae
        with a so-called 'sticky-stringbag effect" caused by a combination of
        physical enmeshment of soil by fungal hyphae, and fungal exudates 'glomalin'
        glueing / binding soil into micro- & macro-aggregates (& thus helping soil
        drainage & aeration)

        The best prevention of plant fungal root diseases is to get clean-stored
        seeds started & inoculated (inhabited) with healthy biologically diverse
        soil micro-organisms. A root occupied with a 'beneficial' mycorrhizal
        fungus may thus physically displace the possibilty of further root
        infections by other soil fungi, including pathogens.

        Stored seeds can also be briefly soaked in a weak solution of a common
        bleach (eg. sodium-hyperchlorite)

        Plants may also have a reaction to being inhabited by fungi, a so-called
        'PR' or 'Pathogenesis Response', that may deminish the chances of further
        fungi inhabiting that plant.

        hope this helps
        regards
        Don
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Robin Fernández-Medina" <flyingdebris1@...>
        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 8:56 PM
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


        >
        > Hello everyone,
        >
        > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
        fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
        Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
        importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
        impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
        Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
        in the whole subject.
        > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
        and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
        fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
        of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
        vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
        well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
        fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
        approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
        most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
        some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
        care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
        vegetable patches?
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Robin
        > Malaga, Spain
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Allan Balliett
        Robin - Check out Elaine Ingham s Soil Foodweb work. I think its at http://www.sfi.com Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying of
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
          Robin -

          Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at http://www.sfi.com


          Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
          of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.

          What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
          and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
          The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
          this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
          brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
          harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
          predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
          or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
          the soil that plants evolved in actually had.

          It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.

          For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
          speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
          Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com

          Ask me if you want to know more

          -Allan
        • gate44o
          First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as it appears the
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
            First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly
            worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as
            it appears the smell is meant to be in the ground and not in the air,
            according to my nose.

            However, I imagine that sophisticated techniques can be used to
            minimize the smell problem from decomposition.

            Regardless, such methods are not quite as simple as Fukuoka managed to
            move towards and if you have time, you can content yourself with
            watching the effects of the fungus over time and learn what it is
            telling you. Plant a different type of vegetable. Harvest and replant
            seed from the plants that did the best against the fungus.

            I have seen that fungus thrives in wet unweeded areas beneath food
            plants and moves onto the food plants when it gets its chance.

            Further I have noticed that a small amount of weeding underneath
            severely effected crops can arrest the fungus especially given sunny
            days. It is difficult to stop fungus spread during rainy periods
            though keeping the crops as airy and exposed to sunlight all the way
            down to the stem will definitely help.

            What crops are the most affected in your climate?

            Leland

            --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., Robin "Fernández-Medina"
            <flyingdebris1@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello everyone,
            >
            > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
            fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets
            in Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on
            the importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I
            got the impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful
            chanterrelle and Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are
            enough to get you interested in the whole subject.
            > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming
            method, and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the
            prescence of fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always
            have been one to think of leaving all the insects do their thing and
            if they wasnt to eat my vegetables to do so until something or other
            brings them into balance...as well as interplanting other plants and
            such to control the spread. However, fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to
            use that word) in my Natural farming approach. I see it just decimate
            so many of my plants and trees even though, most of the time it doesnt
            kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and some strains seem to be
            able to leap from one plant to the other without a care of type or
            size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my vegetable patches?
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Robin
            > Malaga, Spain
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jamie
            Hello Robin, I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land you re growing
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
              Hello Robin,
              I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
              of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
              you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
              I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
              with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
              I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
              I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
              appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
              (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
              this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
              which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
              but if you have the brushwood it might help.

              Jamie
              Souscayrous

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
              To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


              >
              > Hello everyone,
              >
              > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
              fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
              Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
              importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
              impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
              Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
              in the whole subject.
              > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
              and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
              fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
              of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
              vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
              well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
              fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
              approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
              most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
              some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
              care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
              vegetable patches?
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Robin
              > Malaga, Spain
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Allan Balliett
              Robin, Leland, et al - I m a biological farmer in northern virginia, usa. I ve established 3 major gardens and am currently serving as head gardener for a 167
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                Robin, Leland, et al -

                I'm a biological farmer in northern virginia, usa. I've established 3
                major gardens and am currently serving as head gardener for a 167
                member biodynamic CSA. I'm only saying this to point out that I spend
                a lot of time with crop plants and have been doing so for years.

                This season we have a drought. Fungus attacks were horrible, just the
                same. Fungus does thrive where there is a lack of circulation, but
                fungus does not need damp, moist, soil conditions to attack fruit or
                leaves.

                It's really important for growers who hope to address hunger issues
                to be aware of the toll that undiagnosed fungus takes on the energy
                and ultimate productivity of their crop plants. Until you garden is
                totally balanced and your fertility levels balanced and high, fungus
                can be a problem (depending on crop, variety and location.) It is
                important to have a program of fungus control in place before you
                even notice the fungus.

                In biodynamics we use a tea made of horse tail to 'prevent' fungal outbreaks.

                I'm not saying this to push biodynamics. I'm saying this because
                there are tools in each of the essence gardening schools that can be
                used to advantage by all the essence gardening schools. Horse Tail
                tea is one of those useful tools.

                Check out Howard Shapiro's GARDENING for the FUTURE of the EARTH
                book. Howard was an actual student of Fukuoka. He wrote this book to
                show how 'specialization,' e.g. following Steiner, Mollison or
                Fukuoka to rigidly can delay attaining our true aims. In my case,
                that would be growing the most highly nutritious food possible for as
                many people as possible for as little money as possible.

                -Allan


                >I have seen that fungus thrives in wet unweeded areas beneath food
                >plants and moves onto the food plants when it gets its chance.
                >
                >Further I have noticed that a small amount of weeding underneath
                >severely effected crops can arrest the fungus especially given sunny
                >days. It is difficult to stop fungus spread during rainy periods
                >though keeping the crops as airy and exposed to sunlight all the way
                >down to the stem will definitely help.
                >
                >What crops are the most affected in your climate?
                >
                >Leland
              • Allan Balliett
                ... Bad smells from compost or compost teas are first warning signs that something is wrong with the compost or the tea. You want a nice earthy smell, like
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                  >
                  >First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly
                  >worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as
                  >it appears the smell is meant to be in the ground and not in the air,
                  >according to my nose.

                  Bad smells from compost or compost teas are first warning signs that
                  something is wrong with the compost or the tea. You want a nice
                  earthy smell, like leaf mulch in a healthy woods.

                  NEVER NEVER NEVER apply bad smelling compost tea to crops!!

                  Manure and herb teas are a different story. Some of the bad smells
                  indicate that the nitrogen is freed up and they are excellent at that
                  point to apply, diluted, to root zones.
                • Don Graves
                  Hi Allan ... I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this Thurdsay Aug 5th In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 3, 2002
                    Hi Allan ...
                    I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this
                    Thurdsay Aug 5th

                    In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza research & organic
                    research, my observation
                    is that both are mostly about (PROCESSes) = (understanding & maintaining
                    soils & mycorrhizas)

                    Mycorrhizas & Organics research attract very poor levels of scientific or
                    technology research funding ...
                    providing few REMEDIAL MYCORRHIZA ( PRODUCTS )
                    aeroponic AM fungal spores
                    seed-balls
                    soil attached to fresh weed or crop roots from biologically diverse soils
                    eg. under pasture / lawn (undisturbed)

                    for use mainly in degraded & nutrient-'poor' soils

                    ie. research without 'product development'
                    = R without D
                    R&D are almost bound togther
                    more is the pity for the sake of planet Earth - (Gaea)

                    there are very few mychorrhiza inoculation technologies
                    & thus few 'development' opportunities for 'middle'-people to manufacture &
                    sell nutrient & crop-protection products to so-called 'producers' or growers

                    he she we ge can sense what was inherited free
                    GAEA's soil is alive, Earth lives!


                    we can manaaki (take care of) our whenua (land)
                    treat vegetation like a korowai (cloak)
                    or a living green skin
                    mulch & (suitable) plants protect against bare soil surfaces ... thus
                    reduce soil exposure to drying, & minimise wind & water erosion
                    however, ... compared to bare soil surfaces, shaded soil surfaces under
                    mulches / plants are slower to heat up at the beginning of Spring
                    here & now in Nelson, southern-hemisphere South-Pacific Aotearoa (New
                    Zealand) the Magnolia trees are in full spring bloom ... & life is truly
                    great..

                    There is more to wonder about
                    than we can ever learn,
                    ... awesome eh!



                    appolls for any philosophy & poetry
                    try my mycological (fungal) regards
                    Don





                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Allan Balliett" <igg@...>
                    To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:53 PM
                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                    > Robin -
                    >
                    > Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at
                    http://www.sfi.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
                    > of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.
                    >
                    > What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
                    > and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
                    > The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
                    > this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
                    > brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
                    > harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
                    > predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
                    > or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
                    > the soil that plants evolved in actually had.
                    >
                    > It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.
                    >
                    > For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
                    > speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
                    > Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com
                    >
                    > Ask me if you want to know more
                    >
                    > -Allan
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • RobinFernández-Medina
                    Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                      Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn, drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen dill get decimated in this fashion.
                      We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought and drought prone areas.
                      Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
                      Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes. I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive. Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
                      I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
                      Regards,
                      Robin
                      jamie wrote:Hello Robin,
                      I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
                      of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
                      you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
                      I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
                      with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
                      I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
                      I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
                      appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
                      (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
                      this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
                      which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
                      but if you have the brushwood it might help.

                      Jamie
                      Souscayrous

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Robin Fern�ndez-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
                      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                      >
                      > Hello everyone,
                      >
                      > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                      fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
                      Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
                      importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
                      impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
                      Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
                      in the whole subject.
                      > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
                      and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
                      fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
                      of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
                      vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
                      well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
                      fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
                      approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
                      most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
                      some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
                      care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
                      vegetable patches?
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Robin
                      > Malaga, Spain
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >


                      Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      ---------------------------------
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Chris Sawyer
                      If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                        If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores and can even be used as a soil drench.
                        Chris Sawyer
                        www.jakesfarm.com
                      • jamie
                        Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just doing what it is
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                          Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as
                          indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just
                          doing what it is supposed to do, decompose dying or unhealthy plants. To put
                          it more simply it's not the fungus that is the problem. But then I think you
                          probably know this already. But thinking like this will help you avoid
                          spraying your veg with the copper sulphate that I'm sure is what your local
                          viticulters are spraying on their crops. It does indeed work well against
                          certain fungal and bacterial attacks such as mildew, however, copper enters
                          the soil and then remains there, as the concentration increases through
                          respraying it reaches a level of toxicity toward earthworms. Here is some
                          more information on copper compounds and their effects on plants (sorry I
                          don't have the www address);

                          >copper compounds. Copper is a foliar fungicide with protective action.
                          Copper compounds can be highly toxic to many fruit crops and must be used
                          with extreme care. Copper >sulfate is soluble in water. This high degree of
                          solubility is the fundamental cause of toxicity problems, which copper
                          sulfate can cause to all fruit crops. Fixed coppers have been >developed
                          that are relatively insoluble and therefore less toxic to plants. However,
                          fixed coppers can also result in phytotoxicity under certain conditions. The
                          fungicidal activity of >copper is based on its ability to destroy proteins
                          in plants. This is true for all plants, fungi, and fruit plants. When lime
                          is combined with copper compounds, it reacts with the copper
                          >making it more stable. Thus, copper compounds in the presence of lime would
                          generally produce lower, more uniform concentrations of free copper, which
                          in turn would be less apt >to injure plant tissues than if no lime were
                          used. Because copper has the ability to kill all types of plant tissue, the
                          use of copper fungicides carries with it the risk of causing injury to
                          >fruit plants. Ideally, copper on the leaf or fruit surface should be high
                          enough to kill the fungus or bacteria but low enough not to cause injury to
                          the plant. Factors that can promote >injury include: failure to use enough
                          lime; cold, wet weather conditions that apparently increase copper's
                          solubility, allowing more into the plant and resulting in toxicity; and
                          >application of excessive rates of copper. Even when no injury is evident on
                          the plant, subtle effects of the copper on the plant may be occurring. In
                          addition, to reduce growth and >yields, it has been shown that the use of
                          copper fungicides can reduce the maturity of the fruit as well as that of
                          the shoots. Copper fungicides can have subtle, chronic negative >impacts on
                          fruit plants. Copper provides low to moderate control of many fungal and
                          bacterial diseases. Fixed coppers, plus lime, are safer than Bordeaux. They
                          may be used for >leaf curl control on stone fruits and pre- and postharvest
                          leaf spot control on tart cherries. Copper compounds should not be applied
                          in a postharvest spray without adding lime. If >copper is applied without
                          lime, orchards will show toxicity symptoms such as chlorosis (yellowing),
                          leaf drop on tart cherries, and necrosis (browning) on sweet cherries. If a
                          >copper material is applied without lime and yellowing and leaf drop occur,
                          an application of lime within 2 to 3 weeks after the copper application may
                          prevent further yellowing and >leaf drop.


                          I've used cardboard also this year to inhibit the growth of plants in an
                          area I'm now preparing for winter veg. It has certainly worked well,
                          allowing minimal 'weeding' before I seed the surface with things like
                          spinach, chicory, lettuce etc. I declined the offer of manure earlier this
                          year after it being suggested by Emilia that the best way to improve the
                          fertility of the soil and keep it in balance was by simply using plants,
                          just as happens in nature. I'd think you might very well be able to plant
                          much of your land this winter with a cover crop that you could scythe and
                          leave as a green mulch on the surface when you plant your veg next spring or
                          even interplant amongst a cover crop such as white clover. You might want to
                          look at http://www.sare.org/handbook/mccp2/index.htm for a cover crop that
                          will suit your climate which, I suspect, is very similar to Southern
                          California in this cover crop database (I've just remembered this one also,
                          should just be what your looking for as it's aimed specifically at
                          California http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/ccrop.exe). Have a look at
                          that earlier discussion on this list (from message 330 the thread is called
                          to souscayrous, emilia and all and then Soil Amendments).

                          You seem to be taking a patient approach to your land so rather than go in
                          spraying, see if you can't ameliorate the worst of your conditions by simply
                          following nature's lead by rebuilding the natural fertility of your soil
                          through plants. I'm about to build some raised beds for next years crops and
                          I intend planting the beds this winter with cover crops to stop erosion,
                          keep the soil loose, feed the soil microorganisms and build up plant
                          available nutrients. Why not order Emilia's video (which I'm sure she has in
                          Spanish and I know she has in English) and we can compare notes on progress
                          and keep in contact with Emilia via this group to keep us on the right path.
                          Whilst the beds take a little work to build and there is some weeding
                          through the first couple of season's, once the beds are established you will
                          have the soil in as natural and 'wild' a state as is possible and thus a
                          healthy soil that produces nutritious crops that come to resist pests and
                          diseases.

                          Jamie
                          Souscayrous



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                          To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:10 AM
                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus



                          Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and
                          others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
                          outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on
                          what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry
                          tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have
                          impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the
                          land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or
                          clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The
                          prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn,
                          drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we
                          started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to
                          grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids
                          were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels
                          alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what
                          happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my
                          comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and
                          noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering
                          hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking
                          that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal
                          point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen
                          dill get decimated in this fashion.
                          We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought
                          and drought prone areas.
                          Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes
                          unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
                          Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes.
                          I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive.
                          Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
                          I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
                          Regards,
                          Robin
                        • RobinFernández-Medina
                          Hello Jamie, Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
                            Hello Jamie,
                            Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little harsh too.
                            Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was close to 34� and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                            Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                            Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                            Robin



                            ---------------------------------
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jamie
                            Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe that grapes
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
                              Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount
                              sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe
                              that grapes can be grown without any spraying at all (and also immensely
                              gladdened). The sun and the aridity I can understand, vines are impressive
                              in their ability to withstand poor conditions, how else could they still
                              grow in the practically dead earth around here.


                              The Synergistic Garden Video Tape By Emilia Hazelip
                              Las Encantadas, BP 217, F-11306 Limoux-Cedex, France
                              Tel/Fax 33+46-83-15-111
                              emhaz@...

                              Whilst the initial digging of the raised beds would not appear to initially
                              favour Natural Farming practices, the actual effect of the raised beds is to
                              ensure the fertility of the soil and then maintain it in a wild state. You
                              can see photos of her raised beds and veg on Jim Bones' Seedballs site
                              (http://www.seedballs.com/hazelip.html) and a useful cropping plan for the
                              raised beds over their first three seasons (though being near Malaga you'll
                              need to develop the plan to your semi-tropical climate from its temperate
                              perspective).


                              Jamie
                              Souscayrous


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                              To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:15 PM
                              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus




                              Hello Jamie,
                              Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all
                              these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper
                              sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am
                              really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea
                              given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled
                              the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in
                              erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It
                              makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that
                              word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of
                              life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a
                              result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little
                              harsh too.
                              Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major
                              producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these
                              moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was
                              close to 34º and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am
                              getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and
                              every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                              Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and
                              learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                              Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the
                              Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                              Robin



                              ---------------------------------
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.